AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Skychief on July 23, 2016, 05:34:57 PM
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Howdy boys!
Getting ready for squirrel hunting here and have a question.
My rifle shoots real well with wet patches. Water/Ballistol for example. It doesn't shoot as tightly with grease based lubes.
Do any of you get away with a slippery patch for hunting?
I'm specifically wondering about the above mentioned water/Ballistol patches (wet, not prepped like the Dutch Schoultz method), or possibly an olive oil patch.
Just trying to keep tiny groups possible without contaminating my powder between shots (anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours apart).
I'm asking as I need to re zero the rifle due to replacing its front sight to a thicker one (getting old is no fun!).
If the consensus is to never use a "wet" patch in the squirrel woods, I'll be grabbing my grease lubes, file and brass punch. If you all think I might get away with the wet lubes, I'll grab said file and brass punch with my favorite target lube concoctions and get to work.
Thank you for your thoughts ans experiences, Skychief
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Hears a suggestion --- how about one of those "Veggie" wads on top of the powder before you use your "wet patch" it would slow down the migration of the "wet patch" to the powder -- just a thought ???.
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Try wetting a patch and starting it, then pulling it before cutting at the muzzle. You will see that the part that touches the powder isn't wet enough to matter.
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I use a "grease" type lube for hunting because the load might be left in the barrel for a couple of weeks. [ or longer ] If you're talking about shooting within a few hours, I wouldn't worry about the lube you're using now. Adding a wad, opened my group up, so I gave it up.
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My .32 needed another 5 gr. of powder to shoot with the same accuracy when I went from water-based lube to a grease or oil.
The .40 and .45 needed 10gr. more powder to shoot the same.
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Sky chief you might try using coconut oil I've used it now for a couple of years and it's as good as anything I've ever tried. And if small groups are what you're after it's just the ticket
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Thanks for the replies so far guys.
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Long story shorter, I found and tried some forgotten mutton tallow that a friend made for me.
I found that by lightly lubing my patching, it shot real well with 30 grains of 3f.
Satisfied with the accuracy, I drifted and filed my new front sight. I'm ready for squirrel season to open now. Thanks for l the replies!
Best regards,Skychief
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I'm also going to suggest Coconut Oil as one option to try. It's pretty cheap, and available at most grocery stores in the cooking oil section. Get a small jar and give it a try.
Another option I've played with is 100 % Neatsfoot oil. It's a little harder to find and you might have to buy more than you want to get the real stuff. Don't buy any of the "compounds"...look for 100 % .
Both of these shoot to essentially the same p.o.i. as my wet patches out to 50 yds.
They may hold up farther...I just haven't tried'em.
If you use any of the oils..( Olive oil is reported by others to be a good one also) the trick to them is to get enough, CONSISTENTLY on your patch without creating a big mess.
Trial and error will get you there, and what the heck...it's a good "excuse" to shoot more..!!
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Another vote for coconut oil. As far as accuracy is concerned you can over do it with this stuff. As with all of the component's of the load you need to work with it. I have not had a problem in many years of squirrel and dear hunting with coconut oil lube.
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How many shots can you make before having to wipe the bore, using coconut oil?
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I do the same thing bob in the woods mentioned; load with a grease patch because I've had rifles stay loaded for months. A few hours with a liquid lube won't hurt anything; for me that means "Hoppes".
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I've left my big girl loaded with Neetsfoot oil for 3 months, then hit centre when finally getting around to dumping the load. Once must test accuracy if switching from water based, to oils and/or grease. Many guns do not shoot the same when any change is made, ball, patch, powder or lube.
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How many shots can you make before having to wipe the bore, using coconut oil?
you can kill 5 squirrels without wiping the barrel and then cook the squirrels in the remainder of the coconut oil.. Kurt you can't do that with neat's-foot oil
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Another vote for coconut oil. As far as accuracy is concerned you can over do it with this stuff. As with all of the component's of the load you need to work with it. I have not had a problem in many years of squirrel and dear hunting with coconut oil lube.
Hudson I have to agree coconut oil works so good its hard to believe.I dont find it as messy as neats foot oil and i have used it and liked it but i dont like the fact that your handling dead animal part s,course i realize its been rendered down .I cut at the muzzle out in the woods or just plinkin and I dont like it all over my hands where as the coconut oil is good for them,after all you can eat it or cook with it too.I have no plans of switchin to
anything else until what i have runs out which is not likley ,my wife buys 5 gallons at a time.
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...think I'll give coconut oil a go.
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...think I'll give coconut oil a go.
I thought you or Daryl said it wouldnt work in Canada
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Don't recall that - however I have noted that Olive Oil didn't work for me as a patch lube or mixed with beeswax as a BP bullet lube.
I just might try coconut oil, as Taylor says.
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Chief, Try bacon fryings for a patch lube. It might not help your scores but it would surely drive anyone close to you crazy trying to figure out who had the bacon sandwiches, LMAO.......robin ;)
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I hear ya Robin!!! ;D
Best regards, Skychief
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Concerning number of shots before cleaning using coconut oil lube . In practice I rarely wipe, have shot 20 shot silhouette matches with out wiping.
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Interesting. Looks like I might try coconut oil as well.
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I've seen clear coconut oil and the kind that is white some what thick or semi solid - which one are you using?
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Coconut oil will solidify and turn white at about 76deg. It is a clear liquid above that.
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I've had good results using jojoba oil as a patch lube. It's extracted from the nut of the jojoba bush and contains a natural occurring wax. I first read about it in the back of the Dixie Gun Works catalog. They claim jojoba oil has similar properties as whale oil.
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With coconut oil are you using "pure coconut oil" or "refined coconut oil" ? Both are in the cooking oil section of the grocery store and prices are close. Loads of brands available, including a"pure organic" offering. Thanks for the reply.
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The product I've used is Lou-Ann, 100% pure Coconut oil.
As previously noted, on the shelf...in my air-conditioned house it is a soft white solid. If I kept it in my very hot garage this time of year, it would be a clear liquid. To use it, I go ahead and liquify it in a small container either in the microwave, or by setting it in the garage, then add patch material, or pre-cut patches to it, until I get them sufficiently and UNIFORMLY saturated.
One note to remember...if you have too much of it on your patching material, you're gonna have a mess on everything you touch, including your rifle stock, hands, ramrod, etc. which will not help your scores.
This would be another time to add: "Don't ask me how I know this". ;D
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The oil that I use comes from soapers choice my wife buys it in 5 gallon buckets for her soap making I have no experience with what you get from the grocery stores . I'm sure it's about the same thing though . mine is the 76 degree melt and they do make one that's 92 degrees I doubt if it makes any difference though.
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Some advocate using less oil. A sloppy wet oily patch shoots less accurate for some. One could, for instance use a mix Balistol and water mix, wring out he patches, then let them dry.
So why not skip the water and use acetone? The water just takes longer to evaporate. Please work outside! Acetone is flammable. The part of Balistol that does not evaporate is plain old mineral oil. They have that at the drug store.
I have used lacquer thinner and rendered beef tallow. I did not get scientific about group sizes. They were less messy to handle.
One could do the same with any oil, or greasie stuff. The idea would be to have an even distribution of the lube of choice but not have it all sloppy wet. A mix of say 5:1 coconut oil and acetone might be worth investigating. IF nothing else your shooting patches would smell like a trip to the beach on a sunny day.
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I would think twice about using acetone in any bullet lube as it has ketone in it which goes straight to your liver and causes problems.Ask your Doctor first.
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Scota and all,
Water is a great solvent but, it does not break down oil.
Oil floats on water and I can't 'de-grease' my tools with just plain water.
Acetone, lacquer thinner and the like appears to 'remove' the oil.
Will the oil be the same when the acetone evaporates?
Also, alcohol, acetone and lacquer thinner won't touch/dissolve some types of oils. (I've tried!!) ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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I would think twice about using acetone in any bullet lube as it has ketone in it which goes straight to your liver and causes problems.Ask your Doctor first.
Yeah - what Curt said - I stopped using Acetone for cleaning grease from my hands in the 80's due to warnings like this. However, due to being on medication for cholesterol, I've had regular liver tests - and all still OK.
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Most every solvent has lots of warnings these days, for instance look up the MSDS for various alcohols. As they go acetone is pretty benign. Remember I said to work outside?? I would also suggest wearing nitrile gloves and not huffing it. One could of course use another solvent. Naptha or Coleman fuel might work. As is the case for any solvent, do not bathe in it on inhale it. Solvents are flammable, do not work near the water heater!
Acetone a big danger?
www.rsu34.org/safety/safety/msds/Cutex%20Nail%20Polish%20Remover.pdf
That is the MSDS for nail polish remover. IT is 75% acetone. It is intended to be swabbed on the fingers. If it were a danger the Cutex company would have been sued out of existence long ago.
As for liver toxicity, I would be much-much more concerned about drinking alcoholic beverages. The liver toxicity on the MSDS above, is from drinking it. ....don't do that.
The ingredients that make Balistol mix with water are pretty ominous on paper too. The danger from chemicals are more from continuous exposure. Working with such solvents in an industrial situation is an example. Occasionally making shooting patches while observing common sense precautions is not danger.
The best way to avoid any possible issues is to never use any of it. That is certainly a valid choice.
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NM
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I have found that the coconut oil work so Good by itself that it doesn't need anything added with it butt test or use it the way you feel is necessary. I use acetone on occasion but I take all the precautions I can as I would with any other hazardous material. I guess if the acetone evaporates why even put it on to start with.
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"I guess if the acetone evaporates why even put it on to start with."
The idea is to have less lube on the patches, less lube than you can get with the full strength lube. You can pay a guy for information on a "system" that does that with Balistol and water. Balistol is miscible in water. It may be that a 5:1 dilution provides best accuracy. Maybe a different dilution. Full strength Balistol may not shoot the best but, less might shoot better. My point was that it could be done with another oil. Since other oils are not miscible in water we have to use something else. My choice would be acetone.
Another interesting fact about acetone. IT is produced in your body when the blood sugar gets too low. IT happens to diabetics. IT is called ketoacidosis. It is a bad deal and makes you very sick, it does not destroy your liver.
And finally..."Ask your Doctor first." I once asked my doctor about eating wild game harvested with lead shot. It felt it was a bad idea to do so. Total nonsense IMHO. Gotta keep risk management in perspective. ;)
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I never got as good results from greased patch as I did with wet ones till I started using bear oil. Find you some bear hunters or the local taxidermy shop.
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I started using a commercial wet lube based on the rave reviews this product was getting. All based on fact, the stuff is really good for shooting and cleaning. So I used it for hunting a few times. It was turkey season and I left my rifle loaded for a few days. Upon leaving the camp I shot a target because everybody wanted to see a flintlock shoot. Someone said " The leaves are on fire!" and they were in a couple of spots. The wet lube had dried and the patch caught on fire and started a small fire in the dry leaves and pine needles.
I was fortunate that someone noticed the small fire before it spread. But in a hunting situation one might not be so vigilant and it could get out of hand. So know your wet lube well before you take to the woods.
As for the wet lube I was using, I still use it. Just not for hunting.
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since this is a traditional muzzleloading site, what did the old dead guys use?
spit and grease....
when i hunt I use grease for my patches--usually mink oil or bear oil with some beeswax melted together.
for tree rats I mostly use my smoothbore with shot and do not use any lube for that-- if I get too fouled, I will swab with some spit and then load the next shot.
I live in a pretty dry area and I have to be very careful... I just don't hunt when its too dry and hot out.
K
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I've been trying coconut oil mixed with TOTW mink oil to thicken it up some in the hot weather. Don't know about the accuracy, but for some reason it makes clean up really easy.
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It astounds me that there are so many on this sight that seem to automatically run to some non traditional "magic bean" sauce for patch lube, when traditional lubes are available, are cheap, and work. None of these concoctions will make up for not going to the range though. JMO.
Hungry Horse
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I used Crisco for over 20 years for a patch lube for hunting and target shooting with no complaints. I never had a problem with Crisco for hunting and I could leave my rifle loaded for a week or longer and count on it firing. I went back to it several years ago for hunting.
I did use Wonder Lube for awhile and had it freeze one morning. I shot a deer and my prelubed strip was frozen. When I finally got a ball started I couldn't push it down the barrel. To seat it I had to tap the ramrod against a tree before I could track my deer. I didn't know it would freeze at the time.
I do use one "magic bean" patch lube and cleaner for cleaning and shooting if I'm going to shoot right then. It works good.
I do agree about the range time.
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Darkhorse;
You must not live in fire country. The flashpoint of Crisco is about like shooting a flame thrower. In bone dry Northern California we avoid Crisco like the plague.
Hungry Horse
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This year begins a Statewide hunting ban on lead in all of California. (Since 2008 it was only in the south and selected historic California Condor habitat.)
Not only do Californios have to beware of dry hot woods, We have to hunt without lead. (thats for big game and upland game as well.) Hungry Horse, what do you use in your traditional muzzleloader to replace lead projectiles?
K
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Ken I'm getting beyond the age where I can go into the woods hunting, but if I were to want to hunt in California, I probably would look into tin as a possible bullet material. It's readily available, home castable, and relatively heavy. Nothing that I have heard of will obturate like lead, so accuracy will no doubt suffer. I probably would choose an area likely to produce a short range scenario, and probably would use a smoothbore since obturation isn't as important in a smoothbore.
Hungry Horse
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Yes, if you can't use lead, I'd definitely go up in caliber i.e. .62 or more. Of course , the alternate is to just move . :) [ probably a good idea anyway since it will fall into the ocean one day ;D ]
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Hungry Horse, back in 2008, when the writing was on the wall so to speak, I started experimenting with non-lead roundball options in my slow-twist muzzleloaders.
The best option I found that was home cast, was 85% Bismuth, 15% tin. You have to use a mould that is a tad smaller than for lead because bismuth expands when it cools, but the result is a dense, "relatively" soft projectile, that will not harm your barrel. I got hunting accuracy-- meaning I could keep em on a pie plate. They penetrated well but had virtually zero expansion. Sometimes they would crack into two pieces if they hit something really hard, but they don't bounce.
The other option I found that is NOT home cast, is ITX non-lead roundball. Its pretty hard stuff but it is softer than barrel steel and will not harm your barrel. But just to be safe, I always use a leather chamois greased patch to help protect my bore. It has inherent issues-- you cannot pull it if you dryball, it will bounce off hard surfaces, but it has superior penetration.
ITX non-lead shot is a great option for muzzleloaders. It patterns great and will not harm the bore. You can crush a pellet easily with a pair of pliers, They have been known to create a better pattern than lead. Good stuff. I will be using it this year on squirrels and turkey because the law kicked in this year--very sad to say.
I have a goodly supply of ITX roundball for my 50 cal rifle, and ITX shot for my smoothbore, because I was a tester/prostaff for Tombob Outdoors. I only use it for hunting---its spendy stuff.
K
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Bob, I'd consider moving but my house/property is only a couple years from being paid off, and my kids all live nearby, and its a few minutes drive to national forest where I can hunt,fish and run around... Maybe someday.
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I think that unless you are loading a real tight combination, or using a very thin patch, the ball never touches the barrel anyway. Heck you could shoot a steel wall if you wanted too. Just sayin'.
Hungry Horse
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Ken, I was just jesting, but am serious about the larger cal. being better. At least a .54 rather than a .50
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I like 100% genuine Neetsfoot Oil for hunting lube - or Track's mink oil - more of a grease that turns to liquid as soon as you touch the patch. Both load easily if the patch is appropriate, that is thick enough, for the load.
Both load more easily for me after the first shot, than for the fist one in the clean, but oiled bore. My hutning rifle, the 14 gauge does not care if water or oil based lube is used- same sight picture.
Be aware that in most rifles, when changing lubes, the point of impact also changes, just as it does with heavier or softer loads.
You may discover heavier charges and/or greased or oiled patches makes your rifle shoot higher- or maybe even lower. - or left or right due to different oscillations or vibrations of the barrel itself. You must test this out at a range to make sure you know where your hunting load shoots.