AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Sweeney on August 14, 2016, 04:29:43 PM
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With essential guidance from Larry McCoy we went to a thicker patch (canvas) and switched to ff. This group (lower left) is from a bench at 100 yds. Getting there. Hope the photo transferred. Will try again if not.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi665.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv20%2Ftroysweeney%2F20160814_091623_zpsijygavqj.jpg&hash=e82e7d02a624f0635a9f5f03d5d542d717fe3fce) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/troysweeney/media/20160814_091623_zpsijygavqj.jpg.html)
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Bad??? I don't think so. Looks like my targets at 50 yards let alone 100. And I don't think my problem will be corrected by different powder or patch.
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Molly,
No, not bad, much improved. Very happy now. Just need to adjust to center. This was an earlier thread where I bemoaned a difficulty getting a tight group with my recent .58 build. But thanks to advice from the forum and Larry's assistance it looks like we are headed in the right direction.
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Don't know that it will help but before you start whittling in that front sight I suggest adding another 5 grains of your ff.
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No need to change sights or load. Next time just hang your target a little lower and to the left!
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LOL - squirrel-P.
Nice group Sweeney. Came together well. Trying a few more loads, 5,10, maybe even 15gr. more for long range accuracy might pay off, although it's still a nice 2 1/2" or so, group.
Which shot numbers were those 3 together, do you know?
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Daryl, those three were 1,3, and 4. used 110 gr. of ff Goex. Larry gave me a can of Schuetzen ff that I will try next time. I suppose increasing the load could possibly bring the poi up to center? But it could also open up the group? Still in the learning process here...but thoroughly enjoying it.
Squirrel pizza, I would gladly take that advice if I could get the live targets (elk/deer) to do the same! Thanks folks.
Troy
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Hey retired fella, did not see your post - you already addressed one of my questions. I guess if it does open up the group then I go back to 110 and file front sight?
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I concur with retired f. And Daryl. Try all options before filing sights. Maybe even scribe a line in front sight and hold next to bullseye. Get elevation as close as possible. Windage is easy. Unless it's really windy out. White out/felt pen. Something reversible. Then use file. But it's amazing what a few grains of powder either way, and different patch/lube combo wil do for POI. This is assuming of course that you have a blade type front sight. Filing a post and bead or aperture sight isn't very affective.
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Personally, with a group like that at 100 Yds, I would declare my gun 'happy'!! Whatever the factor, it seems to me that filing the sight would be much easier than loading and firing at least three more times when its obvious that accuracy is at hand.
Robby
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... used 110 gr. of ff Goex. Larry gave me a can of Schuetzen ff that I will try next time. I suppose increasing the load could possibly bring the poi up to center? But it could also open up the group? Still in the learning process here...
You won't know exactly what increasing/decreasing the load with do to POI until you try it, and get consistent results.
I'd likely try a few heavier loads in Goex, see what happens. Get my Goex FF load worked up fully.
Then I'd "adjust" to the Schuetzen by whatever factor folks suggest. Find your best grouping Schuetzen load, then compare best groups and consider possible sight adjustments at that point in time.
Heck it's possible that the gun shoots better with Goex at 110 than it ever will Schuetzen, and yet with a few more/less grains of -out perform the best Goex load. I'm not saying it will or won't. It's all in the shooting to see.
If you're not careful, you can burn a lot of powder deciding on a powder and best charge. ;D
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Wade you took the words right out of my mouth! As much as I dislike Pyrodex, I've found, in certain guns results are totally different than Goex, Swiss, etc.. Coming up with the recipe that works best for a particular gun is the time consuming hard part. A purist would never consider Pyrodex but I didn't want to be narrow minded. Was advised about the uber corrosive nature of Pyrodex but figured a good cleaning would negate that. It's not a bad thing to know how your firearm responds to Goex or Pyrodex. What ever puts lead on target, and whatever you can lay hands on to make the gun go bang! Just take good advise that was given to me. If you use Pyrodex, clean, clean, and re lean your rifle. Or you'll be sorry. You may consider trying it, if you're not shooting a flinter.
So many variables! But ain't it fun?! If it were easy we'd have nothing to crow about.
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The old Pyrodex did not work in flintlocks. Have they changed something. I have half a lb left over from the late 70s or early 80s Did not care for it, just as dirty and corrisive and produced a lot of miss and hang fires in my 50cal custom Hawken rifle.
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I don't know, haven't used more than a pound of Pyrodex in my life, always Goex. If it weren't for the corrosive nature and never seeming to have a clean bore I would sing the praises of Pyrodex! Loved the way it shot, Consistant groups, but would rather clean my rifle after shooting and not have to wonder if my barrel was being eaten by some unseen critter. Was told water would neutralize the phosphates and evil thingies in pyrodex. Been cleaning guns after shooting for many years but seldom found a gun to resoul itself as with pyrodex. Either plan on repeated cleaning and oiling or don't use it. IMHO . But honestly have had good results with it at the range. Recon it's a trade off l. I'll stick with Goex, Swiss. A pound of Pyrodex does make a fine firecracker though. Needed some of those new fangled hearing aids.
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With essential guidance from Larry McCoy we went to a thicker patch (canvas) and switched to ff. This group (lower left) is from a bench at 100 yds. Getting there. Hope the photo transferred. Will try again if not.
Sweeney There is room for improvement here, first a swift kick in the behind to the coach to get his attention and go from there.If improvement is not found. send the gun home with him{preferably forever}. On the serious side. it has been a pleasure shoot with and coach you. Looking forward to Elk and watching you on the .40 in the planning stage.
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Forgot to mention the muzzle is coned.
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Lordy that's alot of powder! What twist is that barrel?
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Colerain 31 in. long 58 cal. 1 in 66 twist.
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Colerain 31 in. long 58 cal. 1 in 66 twist.
Oh good golly! I'm just getting ready to build a gun around one of those for myself! :o
I can guarantee you it won't be shooting 110gr of powder. ;)
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Colerain 31 in. long 58 cal. 1 in 66 twist.
Oh good golly! I'm just getting ready to build a gun around one of those for myself! :o
I can guarantee you it won't be shooting 110gr of powder. ;)
I agree Mike if I was building it myself, most likely 70or 80 grs. for me, however I,m not a hunter. Wide flat butt plate, 110 grs of 2f, recoil is not great. Accurate and plenty of stopping power.
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I suspect a .58 ball out of a sling shot has alot of stopping power.... ;)
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My 31" rice barreled flinter in .58 is a fairly light gun. 100 grs of goex 2fg, I quickly figured out, was a tad too uncomfortable to shoot. Settled on a little over 80 grs (3 drams) and believe me it has no trouble dispatching Tennessee whitetails. Most of my shots will be under 50 yards.
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I suspect that 110 gns. of FFG in a 31" barrel is not burning completely. Shoot it over fresh snow, or an old bed sheet, and see if it spitting a bunch of it out on the ground. I'd be shocked if it isn't.
If whatever your'e hunting takes a charge of 110 gns. Of powder and a .58 cal. Ball your'e either hunting dangerous game, or shooting them in the wrong end.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse,
I will do that. But regarding that size charge, in an earlier thread of this same topic it was made clear that 110 up to 125 or more was not that uncommon for a .58. The info is getting contradictory.
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I suspect that 110 gns. of FFG in a 31" barrel is not burning completely. Shoot it over fresh snow, or an old bed sheet, and see if it spitting a bunch of it out on the ground. I'd be shocked if it isn't.
If whatever your'e hunting takes a charge of 110 gns. Of powder and a .58 cal. Ball your'e either hunting dangerous game, or shooting them in the wrong end.
Hungry Horse
HH That may be true as we have been taught, however according to the Lyman handbook increasing the charge beyond this does increase the muzzle volicity and a higher point of impact at 100 yds
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I suspect that 110 gns. of FFG in a 31" barrel is not burning completely. Shoot it over fresh snow, or an old bed sheet, and see if it spitting a bunch of it out on the ground. I'd be shocked if it isn't.
If whatever your'e hunting takes a charge of 110 gns. Of powder and a .58 cal. Ball your'e either hunting dangerous game, or shooting them in the wrong end.
Hungry Horse
HH That may be true as we have been taught, however according to the Lyman handbook increasing the charge beyond this does increase the muzzle volicity and a higher point of impact at 100 yds
My own observation of antique rifles with original chargers/measures is that NONE of them used such a load
unless it was a British rifle used in Africa or India. The Modena (Medina) Hawken is 58 caliber and has a flask with 3 or 4
position spout and the top load is 85 grains of black powder.A 58 caliber ball launched from a pistol with 40 grains of black powder
is a potent projectile from a 10" barrel so I would think and KNOW that the same ball from a 33" barrel with twice that load
will be even more effective.
Bob Roller
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I have a 30" barrel on my Browning Mountain Rifle that was re-bored to 58 with a 1/66 twist for round ball shooting. This gun shoots 120 grns of 2f into 2 1/2 inches about 1" low at 100 yds. The mid-range trajectory at 50 yds is 2 1/2 " high with about a 1-1/2" group (all from the bench) I clocked this loat at just over 1600 ft per second. Not fun to shoot from the bench, but this is a hunting gun not a bench gun. I also have a .58 big boar barrel for my renegade with a 1/48 twist and 27" barrel. It likes 80 grns of 2f for a round ball target load, but 110 grns for a round ball hunting load. 58's are just fun, and who doesn't like putting big holes in paper or game?
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I have a 30" barrel on my Browning Mountain Rifle that was re-bored to 58 with a 1/66 twist for round ball shooting. This gun shoots 120 grns of 2f into 2 1/2 inches about 1" low at 100 yds. The mid-range trajectory at 50 yds is 2 1/2 " high with about a 1-1/2" group (all from the bench) I clocked this loat at just over 1600 ft per second. Not fun to shoot from the bench, but this is a hunting gun not a bench gun. I also have a .58 big boar barrel for my renegade with a 1/48 twist and 27" barrel. It likes 80 grns of 2f for a round ball target load, but 110 grns for a round ball hunting load. 58's are just fun, and who doesn't like putting big holes in paper or game?
Why would you shoot a less accurate load for hunting than you do target....I'm assuming the 80gr load is shot because of it's superior accuracy over the 110gr load.
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The 80 gr & 110 grain loads in the Renegade have almost identical accuracy at 50 yds, but the 80 gr. load drops more than 6" at 100 yds, whereas the 110 gr. load only drops about 2.5". I use the 80 gr. load for club trail walks and cut the stake competitions. It is much easier on the shoulder.
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Wade you took the words right out of my mouth! As much as I dislike Pyrodex, I've found, in certain guns results are totally different than Goex, Swiss, etc.. Coming up with the recipe that works best for a particular gun is the time consuming hard part. A purist would never consider Pyrodex but I didn't want to be narrow minded. Was advised about the uber corrosive nature of Pyrodex but figured a good cleaning would negate that. It's not a bad thing to know how your firearm responds to Goex or Pyrodex. What ever puts lead on target, and whatever you can lay hands on to make the gun go bang! Just take good advise that was given to me. If you use Pyrodex, clean, clean, and re lean your rifle. Or you'll be sorry. You may consider trying it, if you're not shooting a flinter.
So many variables! But ain't it fun?! If it were easy we'd have nothing to crow about.
Easier to just not use the stuff.
Dan
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I suspect that 110 gns. of FFG in a 31" barrel is not burning completely. Shoot it over fresh snow, or an old bed sheet, and see if it spitting a bunch of it out on the ground. I'd be shocked if it isn't.
If whatever your'e hunting takes a charge of 110 gns. Of powder and a .58 cal. Ball your'e either hunting dangerous game, or shooting them in the wrong end.
Hungry Horse
HH That may be true as we have been taught, however according to the Lyman handbook increasing the charge beyond this does increase the muzzle volicity and a higher point of impact at 100 yds
My own observation of antique rifles with original chargers/measures is that NONE of them used such a load
unless it was a British rifle used in Africa or India. The Modena (Medina) Hawken is 58 caliber and has a flask with 3 or 4
position spout and the top load is 85 grains of black powder.A 58 caliber ball launched from a pistol with 40 grains of black powder
is a potent projectile from a 10" barrel so I would think and KNOW that the same ball from a 33" barrel with twice that load
will be even more effective.
Bob Roller
The problem arises when the range is extended. 1600 fps is about the lowest velocity I consider useful in the west. Antelope, for example, have something like 8x vision. Getting under 100 yards is almost impossible 120+ is not uncommon. Low velocity loads just don't cut it trajectory wise. In the east where many deer are shot at pistol ranges its not a concern. Where I live without a laser range finder range estimate errors of 100 yards are not unknown since often there is NOTHING to judge by but the size of the animal and this can vary from animal to animal and even the light striking it can cause it to look closer than it is. If I have a rifle that I can zero at 120 (50 cal with 75 gr of FFF Swiss or 90 gr of FFF GOEX) with 4" rise at mid-range and I see a deer I think is at 75 and its really 125 it does not matter. Center hold will kill the deer. Load it so it can only be zeroed with a 4" rise at 75 and the deer is 125 you can shoot off a leg....
Dan