AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: mossyhorn on October 25, 2016, 04:55:32 AM
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I'm interested in 20 guage/.62 cal. smoothbore for small game, turkeys and deer. Will a jug choke improve the density of my patterns for turkeys and small game at 30-40 yds and still be good for round balls at deer ranges of 50-100 yds. Does jug choking damage a barrel or make it unsafe in any way?
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If done properly they are said to be effective in tightening patterns and increasing effective range..and also allow the use of a patch n ball..
I believe there are different degrees of jug choking much like different chokes...
I've never shot one...some guys love them...some don't...sounds like maybe they can be picky on what they throw well...
I went with a Colerain turkey barrel... mostly gun a be a turkey gun...I can NOT shoot a ball from it...so that's a downfall if you wanna shoot shot and balls..my effective range is right around 35yds IMO...
But I've tried somewhere around 20 combinations of shot charges, powder charges, wads, different over shot cards, buffer etc..besides 1 or 2 loads they all essentially patterned the same...not very picky at all which is nice...It could be very frustrating and time consuming to have a picky barrel...
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Here is a good place to start your research;
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39419.0
Also check out the Caywood site. I had Danny put a jug in a Rice .62 smoothie barrel last spring. Nice job, reasonable price, quick turnaround too!
http://www.caywoodguns.com/jug-choking.html
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I have a Navy Arms 12 ga double that woud not pattern when I got it. "patterns" were worse than cylinder with huge holes in varying places. Played with loads and components for over a year trying to get even patterns with no luck. I was ready to get rid of it when a friend suggested jug choking. I said why not and put in a jug choke using a cylinder hone. I'd hone some and go shoot, hone and shoot, hone and shoot. My patterns were getting worse and then I realized the 12 ga. wad was smaller than the diameter of the jug and I'd get blow-by as soon as the wad entered the jug. I tried using a regular 12 ga. over powder wad followed by a .750 dia. leather wad (punched from an old belt), a half-thickness cushion wad then the shot topped with a card wad. That did it! I now get beautiful, even, improved-cylinder patterns.
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I have jug choked a couple of 12 ga. and it improved the performance but we never tried round balls in them so that is experimentation time.
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I have 2 12 ga guns that are jug choked full for turkey. Both shoot shot very well with turkey killing patterns out to 40 yds an both shoot a roundball with very good accuracy out to about 55/60 yds. I have not shot them past that range. Danny Caywood choked both barrels an did an excellent job. If a man just wanted one gun that would be the way to go IMHO
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Wattlebuster, do you use a fairly tight load when you shoot the round ball in that jug choked barrel?
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I love the jug-choked barrel on this 16 gauge. The longest kills I get with it are about 40 yards. One squirrel fell from so high in the treetops and it hit the stones below when i picked it up it was a loose bag of bones. But beware, you will be picking shot out of meat if you shoot something close, aim for the nose if you can. At 20 or 25 yards I had 18 pellets in a soda can.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa312%2Ferock1980%2F14732295_1084076378349677_8546620237654352035_n.jpg&hash=516c062799d333524eed0d6e80ef64662c2ee1f0) (http://s196.photobucket.com/user/erock1980/media/14732295_1084076378349677_8546620237654352035_n.jpg.html)
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Is the OP's expectation of a smoothbore shooting ball for deer beyond 50 yds reasonable even the barrel is not jug choked? I have no experience with this so asking for education.
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Wattlebuster, do you use a fairly tight load when you shoot the round ball in that jug choked barrel?
I load it just as if it were a rifle. The load is 100 gr of Fg then a 020 beargreased pillowtick patch around a self molded .690 ball. It will get er done out to about 60 yds
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These two targets are from a jug choked Chambers NE Fowler in 10 ga. The first target is #6 shot at 50 yards.
The second is patched roundballs, first three shots out of the barrel.
I'd say they speak for themselves.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv287%2FSmallpatch%2FBruce%2520Nave%2520NE%2520Fowler%2Ftargets001.jpg&hash=a8117cac8792d767f91dac635c80f57be21ac404)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv287%2FSmallpatch%2FBruce%2520Nave%2520NE%2520Fowler%2Ftargets003.jpg&hash=3ae22c12aca0713ba59858892847f926aa3ff0a7)
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What is your shot load?
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Chuckwalla,
Not sure, this was just a test load to see how well the jug worked. I'd have to look up that target to see. I know it was stout. I only had #6 shot with me.
The final owner took 2 turkeys with it first season. Probably would end up with 1 ½ to 2 oz of #4 to really put them away.
This one was at a measured 50yds.
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Great pattern SP and is that 3 shots in the turkey neck at 50 yds? When was jug choking first started and does it usually improve density of patterns or round ball accuracy if done properly. I'm interested in it for a .62 cal/20 guage.
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Hi,
For information purposes.
I jug choked a Thompson Center New Englander 12 ga.
At 45 yds. it would consistently keep 8 #6 pellets in a small soup can :o
The choke expansion was .020"X 2"
Fred
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When was jug choking first started
According to WW Greener (The Gun and Its Development page 251) jug choking was patented by R.M. Fairburn in 1872.
does it usually improve density of patterns
Yes.
...round ball accuracy....
I have no personal experience.
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I jugged a .44 smoothbore cap-lock once a pon a time - long ago - early 80's. the Jug was nly about .010" deep, but it wasn't a large bore gun. The shot patterns were super - shot only 1/2 ounce and broke 10 straight from 16 yards with it at our rendezvous, beating 4 12 bores and a 10 bore - LOL. I used #9's so it was either throwing good patterns or I was very lucky that day, maybe both.
With round balls it would stay on a bunny's head at 50 yards from a rest (I used bunny head targets I made and printed at work - LOL - but most of those shots were closer than 50 yards when hunting. The guy I sold it to, said it shot as well as his rifle to 80 yards on his trail. He was using the .426" ball (special order from Lyman IIRC) and .020" patch I recommended.
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I jugged a .44 smoothbore cap-lock once a pon a time - long ago - early 80's. the Jug was nly about .010" deep, but it wasn't a large bore gun. The shot patterns were super - shot only 1/2 ounce and broke 10 straight from 16 yards with it at our rendezvous, beating 4 12 bores and a 10 bore - LOL. I used #9's so it was either throwing good patterns or I was very lucky that day, maybe both.
With round balls it would stay on a bunny's head at 50 yards from a rest (I used bunny head targets I made and printed at work - LOL - but most of those shots were closer than 50 yards when hunting. The guy I sold it to, said it shot as well as his rifle to 80 yards on his trail. He was using the .426" ball (special order from Lyman IIRC) and .020" patch I recommended.
How far from the muzzle was the opened up area, and how long was the area you jugged? I'm thinking of having a otherwise ruined .45 barrel bored smooth and would like to jug choke it if I do.
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I jugged a .44 smoothbore cap-lock once a pon a time - long ago - early 80's. the Jug was nly about .010" deep, but it wasn't a large bore gun. The shot patterns were super - shot only 1/2 ounce and broke 10 straight from 16 yards with it at our rendezvous, beating 4 12 bores and a 10 bore - LOL. I used #9's so it was either throwing good patterns or I was very lucky that day, maybe both.
With round balls it would stay on a bunny's head at 50 yards from a rest (I used bunny head targets I made and printed at work - LOL - but most of those shots were closer than 50 yards when hunting. The guy I sold it to, said it shot as well as his rifle to 80 yards on his trail. He was using the .426" ball (special order from Lyman IIRC) and .020" patch I recommended.
How far from the muzzle was the opened up area, and how long was the area you jugged? I'm thinking of having a otherwise ruined .45 barrel bored smooth and would like to jug choke it if I do.
I have found that smoothbores .55 and smaller shoot great shot patterns with out jug. Don't know why.
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My 28 bore was one of the best patterning guns I ever owned. It performed far and beyond what you'd expect of the smaller bore size.
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I have found that smoothbores .55 and smaller shoot great shot patterns with out jug. Don't know why.
Might look into the ratio of barrel length to bore size being a good or at least partial reason for this. The longer the barrel, the lower the muzzle-blast pressure which is a definite impact on patterns.
It also seems painfully (painful as I don't have one) obvious that the long barreled .54 cal. smoothbores - ie: 28 bores shoot amazingly well with patched round balls too.
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I have found that smoothbores .55 and smaller shoot great shot patterns with out jug. Don't know why.
Might look into the ratio of barrel length to bore size being a good or at least partial reason for this. The longer the barrel, the lower the muzzle-blast pressure which is a definite impact on patterns.
It also seems painfully (painful as I don't have one) obvious that the long barreled .54 cal. smoothbores - ie: 28 bores shoot amazingly well with patched round balls too.
Long 28 bores have always been a big favorite of mine. They shoot RB and shot very well. In fact my 28 bore had a 48" barrel and shot such tight patterns it was difficult to hit flying targets with, but was deadly on anything sitting still!
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In light of that theory does that mean that longer barrels in a .62 cal might shoot tighter patterns? Will a thirty eight inch shoot the same as a forty two inch or longer?
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In light of that theory does that mean that longer barrels in a .62 cal might shoot tighter patterns? Will a thirty eight inch shoot the same as a forty two inch or longer?
Depends. (no not the adult diaper.... ::)) A friend had a 20 bore with a 42" barrel that shot nice patterns. My 20 bore with a 41" barrel shot donuts untilll I got rid of the cushion wad, even then it wasn't the best. So in my experience, some 20 bores will and some won't but I suspect once you get out to 48" to 54" chances are they will probably pattern better.
I have also found that a "Nock-ish" type of chambered breech improves patterns as well, but I don't have but a couple guns that I have built and/or shot to prove that on.
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In light of that theory does that mean that longer barrels in a .62 cal might shoot tighter patterns? Will a thirty eight inch shoot the same as a forty two inch or longer?
Depends. (no not the adult diaper.... ::)) A friend had a 20 bore with a 42" barrel that shot nice patterns. My 20 bore with a 41" barrel shot donuts untilll I got rid of the cushion wad, even then it wasn't the best. So in my experience, some 20 bores will and some won't but I suspect once you get out to 48" to 54" chances are they will probably pattern better.
I have also found that a "Nock-ish" type of chambered breech improves patterns as well, but I don't have but a couple guns that I have built and/or shot to prove that on.
The emboldened print is spot-on and coincides with the 'ratio' of bore size to barrel length. The longer the barrel, the lower the pressure at the muzzle, thus the 'potential' for better patterns.
My 32" Hunkeler 20 bore shoots beautiful patterns due to it's standard choke. I do poorly with it using ball. If it had a jug choke, I would expect it to shoot almost as well with shot as it does now, but perhaps shoot ball better than it does now.
Currently, it is a winning clay bird buster, shooting good modified patterns using 1-1/8oz shot and 75gr. 2F with only about .010" of choke.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F20%2520bore%2520Hunkeler%2FAHunkeler20bore015_zps38de83d6.jpg&hash=aa27907d7637c06bdd6d34af83a3ba521660caae) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore015_zps38de83d6.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F20%2520bore%2520Hunkeler%2FAHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg&hash=0f596a44bce49d8088e4f7bf6b04ee033fe893c5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg.html)
The gun's English Styling feels good enough that if it had a .54 or .58cal rifled extra barrel, it would make a nice hunting rifle as well.
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Could lowering the muzzle pressure be accomplished by reducing the powder charge in increments to the point that a resulting pattern improvement is realized at some point?
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Yes - however there are limits as in velocity loss - to below the effective range.
For example, shooting 70gr. or 75gr. of 2F powder with an 80gr. measure of shot, will normally shoot better patterns than with equal measure full of shot and powder, that many people use.
Something else you can do to drop muzzle pressures is switching out the 2F for 3F - as in dropping the charge to 60gr. to 65gr. 3F. This can improve patterns over the 2F loads due to the lower muzzle pressure, yet the velocities will still be about the same and sufficient to kill the game - depending on range and what the game is and shot size used.
Something else than can be done - was tried and found worked in the 1880's with non-choked ctg. guns, was running a thread tap in the muzzle and down a 1/2" or more to rough it up to help hold or retain the wads somewhat. The cuts need not be deep.
With early breech loaders, the "thread's" would work for only a few shots then would fill with fouling and stop working to retard the wads. This was reported by W.W. Greener in "The Gun and it's Development" 9th edition.
For us to use this method in a ML, the "threads" would be kept quite clean just by loading from the muzzle - hence should work for every shot. As well, I cannot see this being detrimental to round ball shooting, at all.
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Here’s a bit of period doggerel:
Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead.
More powder, less lead, kicks hard, wide spread.
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Something else than can be done - was tried and found worked in the 1880's with non-choked ctg. guns, was running a thread tap in the muzzle and down a 1/2" or more to rough it up to help hold or retain the wads somewhat. The cuts need not be deep.
With early breech loaders, the "thread's" would work for only a few shots then would fill with fouling and stop working to retard the wads. This was reported by W.W. Greener in "The Gun and it's Development" 9th edition.
For us to use this method in a ML, the "threads" would be kept quite clean just by loading from the muzzle - hence should work for every shot. As well, I cannot see this being detrimental to round ball shooting, at all.
Back in the day, it was said that shotgun barrels could be 'too smooth' and the remedy was to urinate down the bore.
It was a common practice through the mid 1900's even to do it to "Sousa Grade" guns. :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Something else than can be done - was tried and found worked in the 1880's with non-choked ctg. guns, was running a thread tap in the muzzle and down a 1/2" or more to rough it up to help hold or retain the wads somewhat. The cuts need not be deep.
With early breech loaders, the "thread's" would work for only a few shots then would fill with fouling and stop working to retard the wads. This was reported by W.W. Greener in "The Gun and it's Development" 9th edition.
For us to use this method in a ML, the "threads" would be kept quite clean just by loading from the muzzle - hence should work for every shot. As well, I cannot see this being detrimental to round ball shooting, at all.
Back in the day, it was said that shotgun barrels could be 'too smooth' and the remedy was to urinate down the bore.
It was a common practice through the mid 1900's even to do it to "Sousa Grade" guns. :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
Hard to explain old originals with pristine bores then..... ;)
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Something else than can be done - was tried and found worked in the 1880's with non-choked ctg. guns, was running a thread tap in the muzzle and down a 1/2" or more to rough it up to help hold or retain the wads somewhat. The cuts need not be deep.
With early breech loaders, the "thread's" would work for only a few shots then would fill with fouling and stop working to retard the wads. This was reported by W.W. Greener in "The Gun and it's Development" 9th edition.
For us to use this method in a ML, the "threads" would be kept quite clean just by loading from the muzzle - hence should work for every shot. As well, I cannot see this being detrimental to round ball shooting, at all.
Back in the day, it was said that shotgun barrels could be 'too smooth' and the remedy was to urinate down the bore.
It was a common practice through the mid 1900's even to do it to "Sousa Grade" guns. :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
Hard to explain old originals with pristine bores then..... ;)
Mike,
That's easy!
Other than live bird, trap shooters and a few of the crazies (I mean the devoted) on this site, how many shooters actually pattern their smoothbores? ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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How many beers would it take for a fellow to fill up a double barrel 10 bore? ;D
J.B.
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How many beers would it take for a fellow to fill up a double barrel 10 bore? ;D
J.B.
Tell me how long the barrels are and I'll investigate.... ;D Probably need to have a case or two on hand I suppose. :P
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How many beers would it take for a fellow to fill up a double barrel 10 bore? ;D
J.B.
Tell me how long the barrels are and I'll investigate.... ;D Probably need to have a case or two on hand I suppose. :P
Always have a case or two on hand. Visit any time, Mike. The store is only 3 minutes way if we run out. We can send one of the girls for more. ;)