AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bones92 on December 05, 2016, 05:27:13 PM
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I looked around, but I don't see any tutorials on casting lead ball and bullets. I've gleaned some information over the years, but there are some areas where my understanding is fuzzy.
What I do know:
1. Pure lead is best for PRB, as it is softer than alloyed lead and conforms to rifling.
1a. Some here have said that a bit of alloy in small caliber (i.e. 32 to 40 caliber) can be used with good results
2. Alloys in lead help make harder bullets that are ideal in high-pressure rifles.
3. Lead melts at 621F
4. Alloys may raise the melting temperature
5. Parafin or beeswax can act as a flux for molten lead. Not entirely sure what fluxing does, but I think it has to do with helping aggregate impurities at the surface so they can be skimmed away.
6. NEVER let water contact molten lead!
What I don't know:
7. How do you know if lead is pure or not? I know pure lead is very soft, but short of buying a hardness testing kit, how can I know?
8. Can one purify lead, removing some of the alloys (tin, antimony)?
9. What's the best way to heat the mould? I've read some will cast 6 or 8 balls, and just dump those balls into the recycle pan for melting. I think the idea is that these first balls will heat the mould up sufficiently to make better quality balls after the first half dozen.
9. What's the best way to process wheel weights? They often have steel tabs that have to be separated out, right?
If someone has a good online tutorial link, I'd be much obliged.
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Most of us have lead hardness testers on the end of our thumbs. If you can mark it with your thumbnail, then it's likely soft enough. Try it on various lead samples. Buy some "99.9%" certified if you want a reference sample if you like. I do have a pal with a hardness tester, but I've never felt the need to take samples over for testing. I should as I'm going to give him all the alloyed stuff.
I'll mail you an alloyed and heat treated bullet made for high pressures if you cannot find "hard" lead for reference.
Once alloyed, it's alloyed. You can dilute the alloy by adding soft lead, if you have plenty of lead. But if you have plenty, just use the soft stuff. No simple "un-alloying" Pb as I understand it.
Heat the mould by keeping it near the pot, some dip a corner, and then by casting. Then it will reach full-temp as you cast. Eventually it gets too hot. You'll see. It's one of those things that becomes rather obvious when you actually put your paws to doing it.
Just set up and cast 50 or so JUST to see how it goes, re-melt every single one of them. Your next 50 will be MUCH better. Eye protection and ventilation aren't to be skimped on.
I hate messing with wheel weights, especially these days with all the junk metal they are using. I have pounds and pounds already cleaned, but I may never use them. THE BEST WAY to deal with wheel weights is to let other folks mess with 'em or buy the metal pre-cleaned. Soft lead still appear reasonable to me on the open market (Ebay), I don't think cleaning WW material is good use of my time. And yes I can get them for free.
ALSO, I try to catch most of MY target shots such that I have a stump or a backstop I can mine for soft-PRB-only lead. Should I ever run out of soft lead, I can mine mine own. 8)
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You will learn by doing. Wear gloves,long sleeves,long pants,glasses, etc.
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You may be able to reduce the antimony content of hardened lead slightly, by skimming off the floating dross before fluxing. Fluxing before skimming will re amalgamate all of the additives. If you skim, then let it harden 0 then remelt and skim, doing this several times will soften the alloy- slightly, but not much. I tried this many years ago and the resulting balls were still quite hard, too hard for tight loads with thick patches.
In order to use harder lead for hunting, per-se', reducing the size of the ball to .010" to .015" smaller (smaller diameter moulds) than the bore will make loading easier. For example, I am now using 15 borer balls in my 14 bore rifle. That is, the hard balls from the 15 bore mould come out at .677" in diameter whereas that mould casts .675" in pure lead. These both shoot very well with a .030" to .035" denim patch. Normally, I use a .682" pure lead ball with that patch.
I use a fairly large steel pot for 'processing' WW's. The clips float to the surface & after fluxing, are easily skimmed off with a large spoon.
I put a can behind the lead pot, to sit the handles of the mould on for support. The blocks sit on the side of the pot to heat while the lead is melting. By the time the lead is molten and fluxed the mould is at the proper heat for casting.
If using aluminum blocks, I will sometimes dip a corner or leading edge into the molten lead to heat the mould as-in when switching to a different mould or ball size.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2F001-1_zpsf9909d0b.jpg&hash=4cdd577a5945aa349673af1e99a737e20f812cb3) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/001-1_zpsf9909d0b.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2FWW715balls-about6lbs_zpsf54c37d8.jpg&hash=ae05c7b1efebab0c17170acdbec6b4cd7aad8fa5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/WW715balls-about6lbs_zpsf54c37d8.jpg.html)
Balls from a Tanner mould, prior to trimming with wire strippers.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2F003-1_zps527736e0.jpg&hash=142415a9d222c22985f9ad4bc45b17fcf9474bf0) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/003-1_zps527736e0.jpg.html)
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As far as wheel weights go, just toss them into the melting pot. Once they melt the steel tabs literally float to the top. Since the melting pot has a handle and a pour spout it's easy to pour the lead into the ingot mold (a muffin pan). I've never used WW for round balls but have heard of it being done.
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I have a Lyman .490 round ball mould. Daryl, it sounds like I may be able to use lead a bit harder than pure in this mold. The Hornady .490s that I shoot currently load pretty easily with the patches I'm using.
If my conversion skills are correct, I'm estimating about 39 balls of .490" from each pound of lead. Sound about right?
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39 to 40.
If using hard lead in a .45- there is a .433" mould available. If using hard lead in .50's a .490" might work, but a .480 to .485" mould would be better.
Just remember, the smaller the bore, the higher the pressures you are working with. The higher the pressures generated behind the ball, the tighter the combination must be to prevent blow-by or burning the patches. The tighter the combination, the greater the difficulty in loading.
The higher pressure is the reason for the cutt-off at about .54 cal, for usable paper ctgs.
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A bit of contradiction from #1 and #9.
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As far as wheel weights go, just toss them into the melting pot. Once they melt the steel tabs literally float to the top. Since the melting pot has a handle and a pour spout it's easy to pour the lead into the ingot mold (a muffin pan). I've never used WW for round balls but have heard of it being done.
I don't know the melting point of those garbage zinc WW, but you don't want to melt them in your lead. I remove them first. They're pretty obvious and becoming all too common.
And I'd never put them into my bottom pour pot again, too dirty and methinks this worsened the leakage/clogging issues. I'll pre-clean in a separate pot (cast iron over coals) from now on.
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bones92, This may help you calculate RB weight: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.495&v2=2876.1 Also, I always use a [casting] thermometer when I make "pure" Pb RB's or elongated bullets (wheelwrights + 1% Sn) for my CF rifles & pistols. Tel True (sic) is one such brand of thermometer.
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If you don"t have a scale you can find lead round ball weights by taking dia. x dia. xdia. x 1503 and come up with a close figure. So a .490 x.490 x.490 x1503 should be around 178 + or - a grain or two.
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Yes, one zinc weight will ruin to whole pot of lead. It will all need to be thrown away. Anything that touched the zinc contaminated lead will have to be completely cleaned. Even trace mounts of zinc will turn the melt into the consistency of oatmeal. The whole batch is ruined and can not be saved.
Last time I was at the metal recycler they has a lot of lead. Cable sheathing and roofing lead, all good stuff. I am in California. Back east, lead pipe is also good. Got any friends in Flint Michigan?
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Years ago, I printed off the Chart from The Los Angeles Silhouette Club showing ball diameter & weight, from 1 bore at 1,671" and 7000gr. down to 180 bore at .296" and 38.9gr.
Specific gravity of lead taken as 11.34
I just tried to find it and it's no longer on their site - or I just couldn't find it there.
round ball weights & diameters in pure lead.
42 bore = .481" and 166.7gr.
41 bore = .484" and 170.7gr.
40 bore = .488" and 175.0gr.
39 bore = .493" and 179.5gr.
38 bore = .497" and 184.2gr.
37 bore = .501" and 189.2gr.
36 bore = .506" and 194.4gr.
35 bore = .511" and 200.0gr.
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Further about zinc weights - they are usually visually NOT LEAD - at least the ones I saw were obviously zinc and not lead weights. Bright- shiny kinda slippery and obviously much harder than the lead ones. They are also considerably lighter for a given size. I didn't notice, but was told they also have a "Z" on them.
Mixing them with lead can absolutely ruin your pot as well.
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Years ago, I printed off the Chart from The Los Angeles Silhouette Club showing ball diameter & weight...
Oh dang. I referenced that chart a bunch. I didn't see it last time I went looking but I forgot exactly where it was (lost bookmarks). Was a good one. I'll save images and also print it, if found again.
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This is good to know. I knew wheel weights were often alloyed, but I was not aware that zinc will ruin a lead pot.
I'm almost leaning toward avoiding wheel weights altogether and just buying or recycling pure lead.
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How many .530 balls in a pound?
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How many .530 balls in a pound?
Could has told you quicker if the chart was yet up. I'm presently hunting a second-best chart.
oh and also: 31
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I just got done casting around 35 lbs of bullets today.
I usually dont cast round balls, mostly conicals for target work and a few for hunting.
My casting has gotten fairly good and the following I think has helped my casting.
1. a good pot that will hold the temperature evenly. I use a Waage
2. holding the full lade on top of the mold for 6 seconds. I think the head pressure helps fill out the mold.
3. I use pure lead, and add the amount of tin that I want, depending on what rifle it is for.
4. I cast at 650 F
5. I use a hot plate to pre heat my mold. My molds are all steel and take longer to heat up than aluminium.
6. I use a spray release on the inside of my mold, on the top of the mold and on both sides of the sprue plate
fleener
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By the way, I thought I'd throw this out there...
If anyone is casting .446 bullets (i.e. for the .43 Mauser), please let me know. I'd be interested in buying some from you.
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Is it possible to inadvertently weld the ladle to the mould if you hold the spout of the nipple against the mould too long and the lead hardens up?
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it can stick but you should not have a problem.
If your lead, mold and ladle are all hot, it is not likely that your ladle will stick to the mold. You would have to hold it a long time.
Like I said, I hold for a six second count and it does not stick.
Fleener
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Is it possible to inadvertently weld the ladle to the mould if you hold the spout of the nipple against the mould too long and the lead hardens up?
Yes - if the lead isn't hot enough, or you fall asleep while holding the ladle on top of the mould's sprue plate.
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Is it possible to inadvertently weld the ladle to the mould if you hold the spout of the nipple against the mould too long and the lead hardens up?
Yes - if the lead isn't hot enough, or you fall asleep while holding the ladle on top of the mould's sprue plate.
Actually, NO ...
You cannot weld it but, you can sure as heck SOLDER it ... ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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An old Dixie Gun Woks catalog from 2006 shows a table on page 637 that gives diameter (inches), weight in grans and balls per pound. The table spans diameters from .200 to .920 in .020 increments. I don't know if the catalog is copyrighted so am hesitant to scan and insert the table. Perhaps their new catalog includes the same collection of tables, data and other odds and ends as the older editions. Hope that this helps a bit.
J.B.
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Is it possible to inadvertently weld the ladle to the mould if you hold the spout of the nipple against the mould too long and the lead hardens up?
Yes - if the lead isn't hot enough, or you fall asleep while holding the ladle on top of the mould's sprue plate.
Seems unlikely, but I've dozed off in formation during long parades, with an M1 Garand at order-arms.
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How many .530 balls in a pound?
wade was as close as needed - however, the chart shows:
.526" = 32 bore - 218.8gr.
.532" = 31 bore - 225.8gr.
.538" = 30 bore - 233.3gr.
Note as well, that the stick-on wheel weights that are used on cast or alloy wheels, are usually pure lead- they are not an alloy - at least the ones I've seen have been very soft. The crimp-on weights are the ones we want for harder lead - the lead crimp-on weights that is- not the zinc ones.
I do not think you'll find stick-on zinc weights - but that might change due to California rules. I suspect they might have expensive pre-arched zinc weights for all sizes of alloy wheels in California?
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I've never had any problem identifying the zinc weights and tossing them. Guess I caught them all cause the melt has never turned like oatmeal. Didn't know that could happen and happy to have that information on file in case it does happen. My wheel weight supply is over 20 years old so there may not be any zinc in it.
I never cast RB with WW. Only projectiles to be fired over smokeless.
I have a spreadsheet that will calculate the weight, gauge and ballistic coefficient of any input size of round ball. Happy to email it to anyone who wants it.
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I must have near a couple hundred pounds of WW. I've cast handgun bullets and ML ball from it with excellent result results. All mine date back decades mostly to the 1970s so I know they are all good.
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OK, so how "pure" does lead need to be for casting PRB (so that the balls are soft enough)? For example will lead with 3% antimony be too hard?
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3% antimony is usually what Hornady's boxed buck shot contains. You may find these too hard for loading if the ball is bore sized or only about .005" smaller. However, if they are .010" smaller, they might be ok. Make sure your crown is nicely radiused and smooth- no sharp corners as cut by a machine.
The .32" Hornady buck shot I bought (5-pound box) was too hard to load in my narrow grooved .32, however with dead soft lead, ie: as pure as you can get (X-ray room wall lead), the rifle shot splendidly and loaded quite nicely with .320" balls from a DC Lee .319"mould. I didn't not even need a short starter to start these, merely choking up on the rod and pushing down, seated the .320" balls with a .0235" mattress ticking patch.
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I do not think you'll find stick-on zinc weights - but that might change due to California rules. I suspect they might have expensive pre-arched zinc weights for all sizes of alloy wheels in California?
Yes I've seen plenty of stick-on Zinc. Which is maddening because we expect stick-ons to be soft Pb. Anyhoo, they're out there.
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Didn't know that, Wade- zinc stick-on weights. Well - haven't seen any here yet, but I suspect they are coming.
Dead soft- as in as soft as you can find is what is needed for most rifles. If you cannot obtain dead soft lead, use what you have to, but be prepared to purchase the size mould you need to enable loading them.
The harder the lead, the smaller with have to be the ball, and usually the less accurate they will be- after you cross the 'magic' line - whatever that might be, for your gun and load. Do not be afraid to test for accuracy. Don't be too quick to accept mediocre results. Further testing, might surprise you in a good way.
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I cast all my own balls & keep it very simple. No sense in making it more difficult than necessary.
Here's how I do it & have 50+ pounds of balls ready to shoot at all times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3DzJNfWmqE&t=3s
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In my experience there is soft lead, and there is pure lead, and it makes a difference when loading.
Pure lead is the only stuff I've ever been able to load without a short starter and still get decent accuracy. Soft lead alloys perform well enough in the accuracy and terminal performance department but can be a buggar to get started in some of my guns.
The best source for pure lead I've found is sewer lead. Its the stuff plumber's used to seal cast iron pipe joints. That stuff is awesome.
To "test" for pureness of lead, cast a few balls with known sewer lead, then crush them in a channel lock pliers. Then try some of the other soft lead alloys such as stick on WW and other stuff. You'll notice a difference in how far you can crush them down. Unfortunately the test is done after casting.
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Well - haven't seen any here yet, but I suspect they are coming.
Daryl, I got given a 20 litre pail of stick on weights last week, came out of a Penticton tire shop. My excitement lasted until the first potfull showed almost 30% wouldnt melt, turned out to have a lot of zinc and steel and (??) material mixed in. I ended up sorting them with a small set of wirecutters to test softness, also found out that by dropping them I could detect a sound difference and sort that way also... still a fair bit of work but worth it given the initial cost. I still think I like roof flashing and plumbers lead better for salvage cause of the ease of rendering it
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Taylor and I got into a batch of X-ray room wall lead sheeting at 50 cents per pound. I have perhaps 350pounds of it, and Taylor, well over 400 pounds.
It's so soft, I have to add a tich of tin for good casting, like 1/4" of 50/50 bar solder per 20 pounds, or it crusts up (oxidizes) too quickly form the heat I use for good casting.
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I have over 400lbs of x-ray sheeting I secured for $50. I told the seller he had something worth far more, but he only wanted it gone and wanted $50. I gladly paid the man $50.
It was fairly easy to work into ingots. I just started a few months ago casting some of it into round balls, but I haven't shot any yet. I am making 0.600" balls, and they should weigh 324gr. I'm getting most out around 320-322gr, but they're also measuring 0.597-0.600 from my mold. So I'm guessing it's not perfectly pure lead, but it's gotta be awful darn close.
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If someone has a good online tutorial link, I'd be much obliged.
Not a tutorial specific to to some of your knowledge gaps, but it is educational on most all things lead:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
Couple of stray thoughts I'll pass along:
-You need a lead thermometer. Pure pb casts properly at 800* F. Alloyed lead casts at lower temps. As example, Lyman #2 is OK with around 650-675* F.
-See the discussion in the link above regarding fluxing. You're not quite up to speed on that.
-You can shoot glass marbles from your smokepole if'n you want. Or anything else if the size of ball and patch is correct. Pure lead is preferred but there is no harm in having tin in the mix. It makes lead tougher and only a bit harder. If pure is 5 BHN, 30:1 is around 8 BHN. A wee bit of tin will make your casting easier as it promotes fill out in the projectile. 2% is good enough, or 50:1. BHN for that might be as high as 6.