AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Turtle on January 04, 2017, 04:01:09 AM
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I use old fashioned strip type window calk for 2 thing that it works well for.
- I put a thin worm of it between my lock and barrel when installing the lock. It seals that gap perfectly and I rarely remove the lock when cleaning. Usually only before and after deer season. The inside of my locks stay corrosion free
-I carry some to stick on the seam between the frizzen and the barrel when hunting. This keeps the stray water drop from running into the pan through that crack when not using a cows knee.
Turtle
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What ever works-works. Some use chap stix and I use a mix of bees wax and bear or deer lard.
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If you have a big enough gap that window chalk is a viable solution, the lock isn't installed tight enough. IMO.
Hungry Horse
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I use old fashioned strip type window calk for 2 thing that it works well for.
- I put a thin worm of it between my lock and barrel when installing the lock. It seals that gap perfectly and I rarely remove the lock when cleaning. Usually only before and after deer season. The inside of my locks stay corrosion free
-I carry some to stick on the seam between the frizzen and the barrel when hunting. This keeps the stray water drop from running into the pan through that crack when not using a cows knee.
Turtle
I inlet my locks properly and avoid those problems. I also don't hunt in the rain. :P
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I do inlet my locks perfectly!, but some blowby still got through. Also,in time, the lock wood can shift a perfect fit. I actually started doing this on customer guns. They either were removing the lock every firing and sometimes improperly tightening the screws on assembly, or never taking the lock out and bringing it to me with the lock internals a mess. I tried it in steps-3 fireings,10 fireings, 1 mo -3 mo. ect till I was confidant. This also helps on guns that were built with imperfect lock to barrel fit-which is most.
Turtle
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If it's raining, I stay in bed; problem solved. ;D
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If it's raining, I stay in bed; problem solved. ;D
You must get a lot of sleep.
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I have to go with Hungry Horse and Mike on this. I have guns I made 30 years ago that have had the locks out hundreds of times and they still fit tight to the barrel with no gap. Removing a flintlock for cleaning is not that big a deal and I think is just as important as cleaning the barrel. It is only 2 screws. Making sure your wood is properly seasoned is a big help too. Even properly kiln dried wood will move around for a while. I like wood to sit in my shop for a couple of years before I use it although that is not always possible. I try to do that even when I get it from Wayne Dunlap where I know it is properly dried. As far as shooting in the rain, a little wax, grease or as smylee grouch suggested, lard or chap stix between the pan and frizzen should be enough normally.
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If it's raining, I stay in bed; problem solved. ;D
You must get a lot of sleep.
Yes, but never enough. ;)
I'm another shooter who always removes the lock for cleaning. Flinters that have lived with me for many, many years have locks that still install nice and tight when put back in. The only thing I don't remove for cleaning is the barrel. The barrels may get removed every year or two for a multi-season double check and greasing.
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I have a friend who removes his touch hole liners and nipples every cleaning. He is extremely careful and has never had a problem. On the other hand I have fixed many toucholes with damaged threads, nipples the same, and locks with overtightened front screws. I know all you guys are skilled mechanics. I also shoot a lot on overnight treks in all weathers. Taking out the lock is a problem, besides it wasted fellowship time. I'm convinced and will continue doing it . many of my fellow shooters are believers. I have gone 11 months without removing a lock while shooting a lot. I could never do that without caulk.
Turtle
PS I perfectly fit my locks to the barrel with laping compound.
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You can stay at home instead of going out in the rain to hunt but if you are already out hunting before it rains you might want some of what I call pan grease around the top of the frizzen,around the pan and between lock and barrel. It can save the day some times.
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I have a friend who removes his touch hole liners and nipples every cleaning. He is extremely careful and has never had a problem. On the other hand I have fixed many toucholes with damaged threads, nipples the same, and locks with overtightened front screws. I know all you guys are skilled mechanics. I also shoot a lot on overnight treks in all weathers. Taking out the lock is a problem, besides it wasted fellowship time. I'm convinced and will continue doing it . many of my fellow shooters are believers. I have gone 11 months without removing a lock while shooting a lot. I could never do that without caulk.
Turtle
PS I perfectly fit my locks to the barrel with laping compound.
Ok, I'll bite. How would you fit a lock with lapping compound....
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I,m stupid but I would like to know how to lap a lock for perfect fit. Help a old guy out.
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Per my guru's instruction, I left a little bit of wood in there on the first one. Not proper, but works great. I've also seen a bit of brass used as a "gasket" for the bolster. I use grease from the grease hole to turn water and wind from the pan.
I'm not staying out in the rain long. I don't care to fool with wet animals anymore.
What is "old fashioned" about a caulking strip? I used glazing putty and points to put in panes.
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Interesting... A few days ago I was looking over an original and when the ramrod was removed I noticed some cracks in the wood under the ramrod. The channel for the ramrod showed evidence of some hardened "waxy" off yellow but very hard substance. I wondered what it was and why it was there although it seemed obvious that it was used to fill the cracks in the wood. In reading this it brings to mind a nice "antique" cabinet I have with very old "wavy" bubble riddled glass in the top doors. In doing some restoration on the doors I found the "glazing" was exceptionally hard and almost impossible to remove. Researching that I found that bees wax was one of the substances used as a glazing "compound" back then....so my current conclusion on the rifle is that bees wax was also used to seal the cracks in the wood on the underside of the barrel, under the ramrod.
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simple, I put laping compound on the lockplate where it touched the barrel and move it slightly back and forth. This is after using Prussian blue and a file. Even after doing this when you take the lock out you can see where the blowby leaks through if using no sealer.
Turtle
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Turtle, could you explain where this blow by is occurring? I normally never have any residue actually get into the lock internals and I have never used any sort of sealant. I remove the lock to efficiently clean around the cock, the pan and the frizzen as well as the surrounding wood. I understand completely that you may not wish to remove the lock during a trek though. Maybe I do it because I just like messing with guns and see cleaning them as just as much a part of the whole experience as shooting them.
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I've only had 4 or 5 flinters but have never had fouling get into their innards, maybe just lucky, or because I never fire more than around 100 shots in a day's shooting.
I do remove the lock for cleaning as it's easier to clean when it's off the rifle, using a toothbrush (my wife's) to clean the fouling around the frizzen, cock and pan. After 100 or so shots, it gets a bit 'fouled'.
I then wipe the excess water from it, then blow the rest off with compressed air- then spray liberally with WD40 to get the rest of the moisture from the crannies and nooks around the lock''s parts. I wipe, then blow the excess WD40 from the lock & reinstall. Total cleaning - barrel and lock removed from the stock, barrel cleaned in a pail of water, same with the lock, dried, oiled and replaced - maybe 15-20 minutes & only 4 to 6 cleaning patches needed.
To "properly" clean a modern rifle, usually takes longer to much longer.
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The blowby goes between the lock bolster and the barrel and down into the lock guts. If you remove and clean right away, you won't see it. It doesn't take much,leave the lock in and in a while you will have a mess inside the lock.I know I have kicked a sacred cow here by suggesting not taking the lock out every shooting session. If you like doing it have at it. Many of my fellow shooters just don't bother. One told me, that If he had to do that every session he wouldn't shoot. On the guns I have built, some for people less conscious than you, I offer a free"tune up" every year where, among other things, I remove, clean, and reseal the lock. I just thought I would share something I stumbled on that works for me. This also works for percussion locks.
Turtle
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Gosh-how much work can taking one or two screws out to remove the lock be? ???
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I have found smoke and mirrors suitable for keeping stuff in its proper place.
::)
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simple, I put laping compound on the lockplate where it touched the barrel and move it slightly back and forth. This is after using Prussian blue and a file. Even after doing this when you take the lock out you can see where the blowby leaks through if using no sealer.
Turtle
Thanks for the reply, however that leaves me out as my barrel inlets are to snud for me to slide the bbl. back and forth.
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Turtle;
I am quite baffled by the leakage you describe. I did have a similar problem with a friends Zoli 1803 Harpers Ferry. He, and I, both own one of these gun, and both found the touch hole very low in the pan as issued. I elected to use a Chambers White Lighening touch hole liner in their largest size, which I think is 5/16". He saw mine shoot, and did the same. Mine didn't leak into the lock works, but his did. After much testing, and head scratching, I discovered that the leak wasn't coming from the pan, but from the threads of the liner. I'm not sure what size tap he used, but the leak was from the threads at the bottom of the liner hole. I think the original touch hole might have compromised the threads.
Hungry Horse
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I give up
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I give up
Don't give up. It is normal to have a very tight seal between lock and barrel by executing very precise inletting during the building sequence. You should never have blow by between lock and barrel. If you do you need to inlet your locks better. Also, I and "most" others may give a gun a quick field cleaning with the lock in, but to properly clean a lock I and "most" others take the lock out of the gun for cleaning. It's only held on with one or two lock bolts and comes off in probably less than 20 seconds. You should be able to dismount your lock countless times and never have a problem with the fit. If you're building guns for other folks you might want to crank your quality control up a notch or two, the problems you are having are not the norm.
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I have had /seen some locks where the bolster was not perfectly flat, or at times having a rough finish. Lapping with some wet/dry paper has fixed this. If this surface isn't flat or finished well, it can 't mate with the barrel surface good enough to provide that seal we desire.
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ouch Mike!
I challenge someone to lube and assemble their perfectly inletted lock guns shoot it for a year without internal lock corrosion like I do. many people comment on my fine inletting-they must be really
dumb!.
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ouch Mike!
I challenge someone to lube and assemble their perfectly inletted lock guns shoot it for a year without internal lock corrosion like I do. many people comment on my fine inletting-they must be really
dumb!.
You'll probably have alot of people take you up on that challenge. ;)
My post wasn't intended to hurt, just letting you know what most everybody else's standards are. I don't think I could sell many guns with a bunch of caulking in between the lock and the barrel.
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I have had /seen some locks where the bolster was not perfectly flat, or at times having a rough finish. Lapping with some wet/dry paper has fixed this. If this surface isn't flat or finished well, it can 't mate with the barrel surface good enough to provide that seal we desire.
I have on occasion found this to be true with one particular lock, but the manufacturer has the problem straightened out now. I always use a flat mill bastard file to take any irregularities out.
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When I inlet a lock I check the fit between the bolster and barrel with a .004 feeler gauge. If I cant get it in there I figure it's a pretty good fit. I do remove the lock for cleaning. I don't notice any blow-by inside the lock.
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I achieve total contact barrel to bolster with Prussian blue after fitting-always. I was only trying to suggest something that might have helped someone else-sorry I tried. Early in my gunbuilding Jean Wojak a fine builder and gentleman told me" NEVER criticize someone else's work". I have tried to always remember that. ( also complimented me on my inletting)
Turtle
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I give up
It doesn't add up. "Perfect" lapped metal to metal fit, and properly let into the wood, AND _yet_ you find it necessary to use a sealant to stop blowby?
Daryl shoots a hundred shots in a day with no blowby or sealing compound.
See how we're confused, and why folks are ciphering about where else/why else you might be getting blowby?
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ouch Mike!
I challenge someone ...
You'll probably have alot of people take you up on that challenge. ;)
My post wasn't intended to hurt, just letting you know what most everybody else's standards are. I don't think I could sell many guns with a bunch of caulking in between the lock and the barrel.
Mike, I don't think you're going to clean up your customers locks annually either. :o
Don't get me wrong Turtle, I think it's great that you choose to perform such a service for "less conscious" peeple.
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I achieve total contact barrel to bolster with Prussian blue after fitting-always. I was only trying to suggest something that might have helped someone else-sorry I tried. Early in my gunbuilding Jean Wojak a fine builder and gentleman told me" NEVER criticize someone else's work". I have tried to always remember that. ( also complimented me on my inletting)
Turtle
Sorry I tried to help you out, my fox paws. Forget everything I posted. Carry on......
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Frustrating-people don't read my posts. Wade, I was talking of corrosion after a period of time and MANY shooting sessions-not just one. if you take a lock out and clean it every time, it doesn't matter how poor a seal you have. Conversly of you don't, and the TINYEST bit of corrosive nasty gets down there it reeks havoc over time. I worked on a well built (not mine) flintlock that had been shot in one shoot, barrel and externals cleaned (lock not removed) , and then but away. Due to illness the gun wasn't touched for over a year. I was brought to me because it wouldn't hold half or full cock. I ended up having to replace some of the internal parts to repair it due to their corroded state. One man I shoot with actually partially disassembles his removed lock to clean it properly every session-never looses the fly!. Turtle
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Frustrating-people don't read my posts. Wade, I was talking of corrosion after a period of time and MANY shooting sessions-not just one. if you take a lock and clean it every time, it doesn't matter how poor a seal you have. Conversly of you don't, and the TINYEST bit of corrosive nasty gets down there it reeks havoc.
Turtle
I read every post, Turtle. My locks, none of them, require any 'help' for sealing out the fouling. I will submit that if you use Pyrodex- corrosion from the perchlorate fouling will most certainly show up, if any fouling gets "in there". The locks come off the gun (except for the .69's percussion lock) ever time I shoot them, when I clean them - except the odd time at Hefley when the humidity is in the single digits. Then, I sometimes clean the rifle like LB- plug the vent, fill, set a shot spell, push that out and repeat for about 2 beer's time.
The 14 bore's lock has been off the rifle - may be 12 times since 1986 when she was built. There is never any fouling in the lock - every now and them - sometimes even once a year, I get curious and check it- no fouling and the hammer's cup is not corroded either.
With the rifle's bolster & snug fit of the rifle's parts, there is no fouling inside the lock- EVER. My flinters do not leak, either, but how would I know as you say - the locks are removed and get cleaned after every time I use them.
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This has been a painful learning experience here. I assumed people went on this forum to learn new things and help other people. That was my motive. I was naive and wrong. From now on I will read and not post.
Turtle
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This has been a painful learning experience here. I assumed people went on this forum to learn new things and help other people. That was my motive. I was naive and wrong. From now on I will read and not post.
Turtle
This need not be painful if you approach it the right way. You assumed you were teaching people when actually it was people who were trying to teach you how the rest of the world deals with the problems of blow by you have been having. Honestly, you should not ever have blow by on a properly built gun. If for some reason you do then maybe your caulking solution would be viable. Personally I'd add or remove more wood untill the lock set properly against the barrel for a permanent fix to the problem.
All who responded could have easily said " Oh what a great solution" and went on. Instead they tried to make you understand what the root of your problem was. So, as you posted above From now on I will read and not post. makes me want to say the same thing, ;)