AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: oldtravler61 on January 23, 2017, 04:58:21 AM
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Curious who might have been the person . Past or present that has built the most longrifles . Any input would be appreciated. Thank you. Oldtravler
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That is probably impossible to answer but I think Jacob Dickert might have been in the running. However, it was probably one the less talented builders who was more a manufacturer of commodity arms. That is almost certainly true today.
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The person I know who built the most in my lifetime was Ted Fellows of Seattle Washington. He was building in the 50's and I know for a fact that he built over 250 each by hand. Others here probably knew him as well.
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Mike Brooks is well over 300 now. Splendid builder and nice guy.
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It would be interesting to know how many guns a 17th-18th century gunmaker could build in a lifetime. I wonder how many gunsmiths even worked full time for their entire career?
I know from making many violins by hand in the old way, that it takes about the same number of hours to make a traditional violin, as it takes to make a traditional flintlock, when buying the barrel and lock. Antonio Stradivari made over 1000 violins in his extra long career. He lived to over 90, and made violins right up to the end of his life. He also had helpers and apprentices doing much of the rough work, the same as gunsmiths.
So based on that, it seems that a gunsmith could make 12-24 complete flintlocks a year with the help of 1 or 2 workers.
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The most prolific contemporary builder more than likely is Cornel Kemper of Ferdinand IN building approx 3200. ;)
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My guess would be ken Netting of Ohio and he didnt farm out any of the work.I think hes close to the 600 mark. Curt
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Mike Brooks is well over 300 now. Splendid builder and nice guy.
Mike who?
;D ;D
just funnin'.
Mr. Curtis must have made a few, as he tends to have several dozen ready to go all the time, for many years now. Tip Curtis of Central TN that is. I think Mr. Anderson is nearing 200. I'm nearly certain that he had #175 on the bench when I was down there last, which has been over a year.
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You might want to consider the late Cornell Kemper the father of Marvin Kemper. There was an article in a MuzzleBlasts magazine on Cornell Kemper, if I remember correctly Cornell Kemper made over 3000 rifles during his rifle building career. tI think he did all of the work and did not use a duplication machine. Perhaps Marvin will see this and provide some input. Tim
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Jack Garner
Jackie Brown
Matt Avance
All have made thousands
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Cornell Kemper gets my vote.
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Jim Klien once told me he has built over 750. H.House in a personal conversation mentioned over 900. Those in the 'Mississippi Gun Building Cartel" I'm sure are in the thousands, but they have employees. I'm working on #355, my life time goal is 400 if my body holds out but more than likely my wife's retirement in 3 years will end my career...I'll have to go out and get a "real" j-o-b :o to cover the cost of health insurance. My wife and I were both self employed 10 years ago and could actually afford health insurance back then. I don't think I can make enough building guns to cover it now.
I'm in awe of Mr Kemper building over 3,000 guns by himself. Not something I'd want a part of. All work and no play makes Mikey a dull boy. ;)
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I am sure Mark is close. It would have probably been one of the smiths who contracted with government or committee of safety to build military arms. A lot of these were unable to fullfil their entire contracts according to some of the old docs., but still would have produced a lot of pieces.
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Royland Southgate built over a thousand.
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Not sure of the exact figure, but Leonard Day has built a large number of rifles, fowlers and pistols.
Dan
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With respect to 19th century builders, John Shell of Dauphin County (born in 1790, died in 1875) was unique in two aspects: He signed & numbered most of his rifles and he dated some of his later rifles. His #'s 422 & 423, the highest known numbered rifles, were both dated 1869. They were built when he was 79 years old.
Bill
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My guess would be ken Netting of Ohio and he didnt farm out any of the work.I think hes close to the 600 mark. Curt
I spoke with Kenny this weekend and he thought he was around 500. He said he's been building since 1964.
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A little different perspective. There were places like Leman in PA and Jamestown, NC where there were barrel factories and lockmakers set up feeding gunmakers who were supplying rifles for the Western trade and even the Civil War. These makers were VERY prolific and probably made rifles by the thousands over the years. But these were shops that got a makers signature on the barrel but were made by several journeymen and apprentices working together in the same shop. This isn't the same thing as a single individual working by himself but got a lot of rifles out under one name. On another thought, how long do you think it would take a full time maker working around 1800 to make an average rifle? Maybe 2 weeks? 25 rifles per year?
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A little different perspective. There were places like Leman in PA and Jamestown, NC where there were barrel factories and lockmakers set up feeding gunmakers who were supplying rifles for the Western trade and even the Civil War. These makers were VERY prolific and probably made rifles by the thousands over the years. But these were shops that got a makers signature on the barrel but were made by several journeymen and apprentices working together in the same shop. This isn't the same thing as a single individual working by himself but got a lot of rifles out under one name. On another thought, how long do you think it would take a full time maker working around 1800 to make an average rifle? Maybe 2 weeks? 25 rifles per year?
If he was just stocking and not making locks, barrels, etc. he could probably bang out at least one a week. I could in my youth.
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To everyone thanks for the input. Always has been a question to me. You really have to be consistent with your techniques to build them so fast. Talked to a fellow at the CLA show that had built about 250. Showed me a few . One heck of a craftsman. Just wished I could remember his name. Most of the locks he built an everything else but the barrels. For his guns. Really fine gentleman an I hope he's there this year. Mike
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Cornell Kemper gets my vote.
I stoped by Cornells shop many times and he always had time to talk to you, a gentleman and a very helpful person if you were trying to learn to build.I handed no. 2000 and saw photos of no.3000.
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I first met Mr Kemper in early 1974. I remember him saying he was approaching 1800 at that time and that he had to turn out a gun per week to make a living. He did not use swamped barrels and did no engraving or carving. He had a spindle shaper to inlet the barrels.
Mike C
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I have heard some of these claims before. 3200 guns = 1 gun every 3 and 1/2 bays for 30 years, providing he never got sick, went on vacation, or did anything else whatsoever.
Anybody who believes this I have some real estate to sell you. Nobody could even get that many parts. People like Jacob Dickert had some employees or apprentices and possibly a few slaves.
PS if a person made a gun a week before 1974 and had made 1800 guns that equates to 34.6 years of previous gun making at that time. Marvin Kemper built his first long rifle at the age of 13 in 1972 by his own admission. He does beautiful work and is no doubt on of the very best builders of his generation. However he is human as we all are. I think.
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Jerry your not selling your beach front property in Death Valley are you? Seriously thanks everyone for the replies. At a time when there was little in parts supplies an precarved stocks. To me it would be an amazing achievement. That's also a lot of where an tear on your body. If your using a lot of hand tool's to make them. But thank you for the replies. Mike
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Guys on this site tell me that Royland Southgate made 1008 rifles.
As far as the Old Guys go, do remember that Henry Deringer was no slouch
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F18nas6.jpg&hash=c0789cc29dd570bb3eef4d0a4c65532e99d247c4)
This flint conversion, likely for the Indian trade, I picked up from the late Cecil Keyser at the OGCA show. Believe Mr. D. man made a few pistols as well.
Dillin (remember him?) says that John Whitesides, Abington, Virginia took about a week to make a plain rifle. He forged & rifled the barrels in his own shop.
Might I remind some of those who still have hair, if you wish to know something about the American long rifle, do begin by reading Captain John G.W. Dillin. His book, The Kentucky Rifle, is the foundation.
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I have heard some of these claims before. 3200 guns = 1 gun every 3 and 1/2 bays for 30 years, providing he never got sick, went on vacation, or did anything else whatsoever.
Anybody who believes this I have some real estate to sell you. Nobody could even get that many parts. People like Jacob Dickert had some employees or apprentices and possibly a few slaves.
PS if a person made a gun a week before 1974 and had made 1800 guns that equates to 34.6 years of previous gun making at that time. Marvin Kemper built his first long rifle at the age of 13 in 1972 by his own admission. He does beautiful work and is no doubt on of the very best builders of his generation. However he is human as we all are. I think.
Jerry You do not understand old order German work ethics in S. Indiana even today. Its too bad that time, distance or generation did not allow you to visit Cornell and his shop. I have told many people that he was the fastest builder I ever saw. I had two of his rifles and have been around several others.I think Cornell was still doing some work in his 80,s and he was very active for 45 to 50 years.
Note: Inappropriate remark removed by Moderator.
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John Bergman. Just seen an add for one of his guns for sale made in '93 and numbered #313. I'll bet he has 1,000 or more by now.
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J.C. If you have an organized system to building. Putting out one rifle a week shouldn't be a problem. Recently got to watch a fellow build a smr rifle in four days. From a plank. An yes he did the barrel channel,ramrod grove an make his parts. Except for the lock an barrel. My original question related to one person doing the all the work. From a plank no kits. It is an was a curiosity question without comparing one builder to another. I admire anyone who takes on the challenge of building a longrifle. Mike
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J.C. If you have an organized system to building. Putting out one rifle a week shouldn't be a problem. Recently got to watch a fellow build a smr rifle in four days. From a plank. An yes he did the barrel channel,ramrod grove an make his parts. Except for the lock an barrel. My original question related to one person doing the all the work. From a plank no kits. It is an was a curiosity question without comparing one builder to another. I admire anyone who takes on the challenge of building a longrifle. Mike
I would like to point out that banging out a gun a week is fine in your youth but you tend to pay the consequences as you age. My hat is off to anyone that can build a gun a week by themselves for any length of time.
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Tip Curtis told me it took him 3 days to build a gun in the white. He showed me a bunch of specialized milling machines he made to help him with his inletting.
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In reference to the Kempers, I think some may be confusing the father and son,both fine builders. Marvin states on his website that he built his first rifle in 1972 at 13 yrs.old and that his father, Cornell began building shortly after WWII. Hope this helps clear some of the confusion up.
Bob
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"Nobody is always correct not even Jerry" ;D
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If finishing guns in linseed oil you'd have to have a bunch of stocks drying at any one time to turn out a rifle every 3 days. I wouldn't argue that you could do a "gun in the white" in 3 days but you're only a little past half through when you get to that point. I admire anybody that could sell that many rifles!!
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If finishing guns in linseed oil you'd have to have a bunch of stocks drying at any one time to turn out a rifle every 3 days. I wouldn't argue that you could do a "gun in the white" in 3 days but you're only a little past half through when you get to that point. I admire anybody that could sell that many rifles!!
The finish he used on my rifle was not Linseed Oil but was a fast drying made in Wisconsin.That was over 40 yrs ago.
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I stumbled upon this thread, but I found it interesting. Yes, 3200 rifles would mean one per week for 61 years, but maybe Cornell was efficient enough to knock out closer to 2 per week. I don't know, but maybe Marvin will chime in on the topic.
I also recall reading that Cornell Kemper started off rebuilding rifles out of broken ones, with people sometimes sending half a dozen old guns to be restocked and rebuilt. He started out in cabinets after WWII, so his woodworking talent led to restocking. I think he did that for a few years before building his own rifles.
All I know is that my own Cornell Kemper .45 was built around 1975-ish, according to Marvin, and though it is not overly fancy, it is a well-built rifle, and still my favorite shooter (Douglas XX barrel). I think Cornell mainly stuck to a pattern that he could reproduce very efficiently, with his signature Roman-nose comb and Berks County profile.
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Mile Brooks is a nice guy??
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What....?
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Mile Brooks is a nice guy??
Vicious rumor.
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Just keep repeating it over and over - Mike Brooks is a nice guy, Mike Brooks is a nice guy, Mike Brooks is a nice guy . . . IT might just work.
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I just saw this week through email pictures of course, Don Bruton go from a walnut stock blank to a rifle in the white for me to finish in 5 days. An he hand inlet the barrel an also hand forged the furniture. Amazing to a redneck like me. Must not be a wasted move plus add plain ole know how or as they say it wasnt his first rodeo
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On HGTV they can build a new bathroom with tiled shower in 20 minutes. Same goes for a lot of those gunbuilding videos. Personally I don't want a gun that somebody built in 3 days or even 5 days. It's like a 20 minute paint job on your car.
When I was younger every body talked about fine craftsmanship. Now it's how fast you can slap one together. I really don't want to be in that contest. I admire guys like Taylor, Crisalli, Kibler, Ron Scott, Smart dog, Hugh Toenjes, Bill Shipman. Dan Parris, Fleto, Etc Etc. I left a lot of other great ones out but you get the idea. It don't take a lot of tallent to be fast.
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Curious who might have been the person . Past or present that has built the most longrifles . Any input would be appreciated. Thank you. Oldtravler
Wouldn't it have to have been H.E. LEMAN.