AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: fishlein on February 23, 2017, 06:17:39 PM
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I recently completed a 20 flint fowler with 42 inch barrel like my 7X Great Grandfather would have maybe carried around Virginia back in 1750 or so. It's fun but a little long for some applications up here in the Minnesota woods. I think next up is a "canoe gun" with a 24 inch barrel. Any good resources out there to give me ideas for historical references?
I know I can just cut down a fowler or trade gun but would like to see old examples.
Thanks!
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Native Americans in the canoe- centered fur trade of the north demanded long guns. But build and use what you want and have fun with it.
A historically supported short smoothbore is a cavalry carbine. Several are illustrated in "Of Sorts for Provincials" by Jim Mullins. I'm wanting to build one of those!
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I carry a 46 inch barreled fowling piece and have taken pheasant and hit clays with it regularly. I also do pretty well with a patched roundball. its light, swings nice and hits what I point it at.
But if I were wanting a sawed off version for historical purposes, I'd go for a trade gun and cut it back to 30" inches so it looked like it was cut down due to a mishap of some kind.
Good luck.
K
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I agree with Ken but for a different reason. The shortest barrel length offered in a North West trade gun was thirty inches. I would say it is nearly as handy as a "blanket gunner" or "canoe gun" and you don't have to justify it the all the correctness junkies. I owned a 30" barreled trade gun for years, and loved it. I feel the shorter versions tend to tempt you to lean over the barrel when loading, which is very dangerous.
Hungry horse
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I recently completed a 20 flint fowler with 42 inch barrel like my 7X Great Grandfather would have maybe carried around Virginia back in 1750 or so. It's fun but a little long for some applications up here in the Minnesota woods. I think next up is a "canoe gun" with a 24 inch barrel. Any good resources out there to give me ideas for historical references?
I know I can just cut down a fowler or trade gun but would like to see old examples.
Thanks!
Canoe guns have no historical context. There were no guns purpose built for using whilst paddling a canoe.
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Let me clarify. I understand that a "canoe gun" is not historically verified or supported as "new manufacture." That being said, it appears that at least some experts say that short barreled trade guns [or whatever] did exist, most likely as after-the-fact modifications.
I love my long barrel fowler - swings nice, points nice, etc. But my Labrador often leads me deep into northern Minnesota aspen/alder/dogwood thickets/beaver ponds where the wood ducks, woodcock and grouse live. A shorter barrel would be more practical in these situations and I can easily imagine a fur trapper or native thinking the same thing 300 or 400 years ago. And putting thoughts into actual gun modifications.
Thanks for the comments - and please continue on.
Mike
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My 31" Hunkeler 1/2 stock swings like a boss and does very well on clay birds. Out to 30 or so yards, it also shoots well with round balls.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/P3062077.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/P3062077.jpg.html)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg.html)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore015_zps38de83d6.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore015_zps38de83d6.jpg.html)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore013_zps7b3285cd.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore013_zps7b3285cd.jpg.html)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore017_zpsa58fd379.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/20%20bore%20Hunkeler/AHunkeler20bore017_zpsa58fd379.jpg.html)
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Sweet looking gun!
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Here's a pic of a very short trade gun at Fort Kearney, in Nebraska. I want to go back and ask the curator if it can be taken out of the display for better pics and measurements.
(https://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Shovelbuck/Archery/Forum%20pics/k25.jpg) (https://s22.photobucket.com/user/Shovelbuck/media/Archery/Forum%20pics/k25.jpg.html)
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Mike, you asked for historical references. We got confused. If you are looking for good historical references on trade guns let us know. Basically pick a historical design and cut it off wherever you want.
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I think Mike's point was that most short trade gun originals seem to have been cut off due to barrel damage or adjusted by the user---and not made that way by the original gunmaker. A convincing repro would have the ramrod thimbles and barrel pins in the right place for a long gun? They would not be aligned properly for the shorter length. Also the barrel would have a different geometry at the muzzle due to being cut off? Also I wonder if many of them might not even have a front sight? Hard to tell in the museum pic above.
I am not any kind of expert but I always was under the impression that anything above 26" barrel length is long enough to efficiently burn a charge of powder? But shorter than 26" barrels can be under powered-- more like a pistol? Am I right?
K
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Efficiency depends on charge as well as barrel length. Plenty of halfstock percussion rifles have 30-34" barrels. Velocity isn't everything with a muzzleloader. There are percussion double barrel shotguns with 30-32" barrels too.
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Yep I think anything above 26" will act like a long gun. Anything under 26" will be a bit more like a pistol.
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Thanks for the pictures and clarifications. I have Tom Grinslade's book on flint fowlers. It was helpful in picking a design for my fowler. Does a similar historical resource exist for flintlock "trade guns" - a single book or two that shows variations of the French and English ones over time?
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Thanks for the pictures and clarifications. I have Tom Grinslade's book on flint fowlers. It was helpful in picking a design for my fowler. Does a similar historical resource exist for flintlock "trade guns" - a single book or two that shows variations of the French and English ones over time?
Check TOTW's book section, I believe I have several books on trade guns I bought there.
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Yep I think anything above 26" will act like a long gun. Anything under 26" will be a bit more like a pistol.
The time span would also be important as far as powder burning capability was concerned. Prior to about 1820 much of the powder was serpentine powder, was it not? - mixture of ingredients. About 1820, there was a switch to more highly refined powder in the military, which is where most civilian stores on the frontier would be obtained. (just speculation)
Prior to about 1820, military ctg. in the US was 165gr. of mil-spec powder (included priming) with a .64" ball, for the .69 cal. muskets, which ran about .69 to .70 cal. After 1820 or thereabouts, the charge was dropped to 135gr. which included priming, with an increased ball size to .65". The first .69 cal. Caplock musket was the model 1842.
I would surmise that after about 1820, shorter barreled guns would perform better than those pre-1820.
Of course, how well would a smoothbore perform in any barrel length - close-range guns that they were.
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I had a 24" barrel on a 20 gauge canoe gun once. I shot very well indeed with 65 grains of 3fg. Anything over that was decidedly unpleasant to shoot because the very light weight of the gun. Go with the 30" trade gun.
Mole Eyes
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When I first joined ALR that was my first question. Got chewed on just a tag. Since then I built a canoe gun with a 24 inch 62 cal. Sweet handling gun in a Michigan swamp. Also acquired a barrel with all the proof marks of European make according to some experts. It to has a 24 inch barrel. I sold it to a fellow at the Tennessee show last April he was very glad to get it. So now I'm all confused. I now call my gun a swamp gun. No sense in insulting a canoe. Right..... Oldtravler
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I had a 24" barrel on a 20 gauge canoe gun once. I shot very well indeed with 65 grains of 3fg. Anything over that was decidedly unpleasant to shoot because the very light weight of the gun. Go with the 30" trade gun.
Mole Eyes
No you didn't, you were hallucinating because they never existed....just a figment of your imagination. ;)
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I think in 1763 some of Chief Pontiac's guys entered Fort Detroit with guns cut down so as to hide them under their blankets. Didn't work out for him.
Efficient barrel length? I have an original flint British Paget carbine, which I suspect came into the Port of Wilmington through the blockade some years back. It is .65 caliber with an original length 14 inch barrel. Guess the Brits thought that OK for their cavalry.
It is just my charming personality, I suppose, but I'd be inclined to ignore all those who say ". . .never existed"
Me, I'd pick the trade gun of choice & saw it off to suit. My 14" barrel carbine loaded with one large round ball can do quite a job on one's (unprotected) left ear.
Yeah, I was still Immortal when I shot it.
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Also built a somewhat inauthentic Northwest Trade gun using a 24" (left over piece) rifled barrel. Canoeing down one Michigan river it conveniently put a ball through an overhanging wasp nest. Heard a lot of yelling by some following canoes.
Miss that gun. Sold it but kept the Roller lock I had on it.
Oh, yeah, Mr. Brooks sorry, didn't Get It you were kidding about "didn't exist"
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This is a very fatiguing subject...... ::)
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Mike you got to get out more. There's another short gun at Fort Michlimacinau. Seems dim Native Americans are sneaky. Two hundred years ago they missed that fine print that said you can't have this gun. Right J.C.Kelly. Oldtravler
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Hey, I went 90 miles away from the New Liberty Compound yesterday....a bold trip indeed. The whole point I'm trying to make is they didn't purpose build guns that short for canoeing. I've seen all sorts of cut down guns, but I guarantee you some bumpkin didn't take his NW gun with it's 48" barrel and lop it off just so he could paddle a canoe. I've been completely amazed that modern man has forgotten how to load a gun with a 4' barrel in a canoe...... :o
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Back to good sources for information on original trade guns: unfortunately there are no books on trade guns that are great for the builder. T.M Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns is a sort of flowing together of articles and pictures of dug up gun parts, period reports, restored guns, and information on gun flints. There's a lot in there but someone looking for dimensions or plans or anything that would help them do a good job on a build from pictures is going to find it far from satisfying.
The book "The French Trade Gun in North America" by Kevin Gladysz is a similar mix of period records for historical context but is better organized and offers multiple views of originals.
I don't like relying on vendor's catalogues and kit offerings for historical correctness unless they document their research, but you may decide to go there. The Rifle Shoppe bases their kits and parts on originals and you may be able to get a catalogue from them.
Almost all French trade guns were stocked in European walnut. Beware vendors selling kits with curly maple stocks. Pretty but you'd have to surmise a re-stock of a gun here in the colonies. English trade guns were usually walnut stocked except for the lower grades (type G) stocked in beech. Far as I know all "Northwest guns" were walnut stocked.
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A guy I used to hang out with, was a sucker for "shootable antiques". He bought a Hollis percussion trade gun at a gun show that was in great shape, and was determined to shoot a buffalo with it. I told him if it were mine, I would disassemble it, and make sure nothing was blatantly wrong with it. He called a couple of weeks later, and asked if I would drop by, and look at his trade guns barrel. Under the forearm just ahead of where the rear thimble would be on a longrifle, was a brazed up spot about an inch long. We have no way of knowing if this was an inclusion that was brazed up just in case, or an old failure that was repaired. The forearm showed no signs of damage, so I suspect this was done at the point of manufacture. This would make me believe that such practices might have been fairly common. Such repairs could easily make a three or four foot barrel a two foot barrel, if the repair failed.
Hungry Horse
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I have seen quite a few brazed repairs/patches on old barrels. It doesn't seem they were so freaked out about that sort of thing back in the day.
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yes and when it blew up in your face in your canoe there was no lawyers around to sue Fred's çanoe and shoes shop cause he resoled a shoe or two he figured he could resole a gun barrel ;)
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Mike it is just a word term that we use. Nothing more, nothing less. Where the term came from who knows. So to clarify it the barrel I had was probably from a European coach gun. According to the expert's that looked at it an the fellow who bought it. An besides it's still quick to handle in very thick swamps. Mike
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The thickets I hunt a fellow finds a so called canoe gun very handy.
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Back to good sources for information on original trade guns: unfortunately there are no books on trade guns that are great for the builder.
Ryan Gale's For Trade and Treaty has lots of color pictures and lots of measurements, including things like barrel dimensions at the muzzle and mid-point as well as the breech, pin locations, and the like. Both it and the related book on trade rifles set a new standard for useful measurements, I think. I'd like to see some similar books published focused on 18th century eastern guns...
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The best book I have on the North West trade gun is "Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, 1670-1970" by S. James Gooding. It's available from Track of the Wolf.
The Museum of the Fur Trade also published a book on trade guns as part of their encyclopedia of the fur trade series. It's volume 1. It's good, but I don't think it was worth the price I paid for it.
Most of the short NW trade guns we see in museums today were shortened for hunting buffalo from horseback. The Indians put their old big bore trade guns to use for this special purpose after cartridge repeaters came out.
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Words mean things.
There are several good books on NW guns. I'm surprised more guys just starting out building don't build more of them. Unfortunately I have never come across any books on the canoe gun.... I wonder why not? I KNOW! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST! ;)
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Ok so I have never seen a Mike Brooks so does that mean you don't exist? Just messing with yeah!! Remember book's don't lie but liars can print.....! Oldtravler
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Ok so I have never seen a Mike Brooks so does that mean you don't exist? Just messing with yeah!! Remember book's don't lie but liars can print.....! Oldtravler
I sent my doppelganger to the gunshow over the weekend so I may not actually exist. :o
In one of the books I have on trade guns it lists the numbers of guns produced over a period of a couple hundred years and the length of the barrel. I believe it was HBC....? Anyway, pre 1700 guns with barrels as long as 4 1/2' to 5' were popular. By mid 1700's the most popular length was the 4'. from 1770's through 18oo the 4' barrel was still the favorite but the 3 1/2' and 3' barrels were not far behind. Past 1810 or 20 the 3' and 3 1/2' were popular. It wasn't until after that the 2 1/2' barrel was even offered.
French trade guns always varied around 52" give or take an inch or two through their entire period.
My point here being, if there were a demand for guns with 20" barrels the gun manufacturers would have been making them....... but, they weren't.
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It's ok we understand. Really! Oldtravler
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It's ok we understand. Really! Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
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It's ok we understand. Really! Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"? ;D
Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?
Cheers,
Smoketown
Cheers,
Smoketown
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It's ok we understand. Really! Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"? ;D
Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?
Cheers,
Smoketown
Cheers,
Smoketown
Well, in that case it must all be true then. ;)
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It's ok we understand. Really! Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"? ;D
Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?
Cheers,
Smoketown
Cheers,
Smoketown
Well, in that case it must all be true then. ;)
Mike,
I'm not saying if it's based on historical/hysterical fact or not but, there ARE a number of "short guns" to be found ... Some even in modern history.
"Blunderbuss", "Muff Guns", "Howdah Pistols", "Sheriff's models" and "Fitz Conversions" comes to mind.
And not forgetting the wonderfully bogus National Firearms Act of 1934 specifically prohibiting 'short barreled rifles and shotguns' all together. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Thanks for all the fun and info. Just for the record, I do often times hunt from a canoe and sometimes the paddle goes over board in the heat of the hunt. In that case I paddle with the gun stock to retrieve the paddle. So when I get around to building this short barreled gun, I will call it a "canoe paddle gun" to be politically correct and will send pictures to show it actually exists.
Thanks again - really!
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Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
Canoe ;D
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Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
Canoe ;D
Sorry Mr. Brooks, I couldn't resist. I understand your contempt for the term "canoe gun" since no such thing existed back in the day. As I understand it, the term comes from Jackie Brown who first offered such guns. Modern day collectors, users, writers etc. need a term to call the shortened trade gun. Sort of like "Old Model Ruger"Blackhawk. If you were to hop in the old time machine and walk in to a gun shop circa 1965, they'd have no idea what an Old Model was. There was just the Ruger Blackhawk.
If you're a reenactor, then the non-existence of the canoe gun is a big deal. If you're a hunter who wants a short gun, then it's not so important.
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I think this discussion was laid to rest long ago, but for those who might still be a bit interested, I recently came across this Jackie Brown "Canoe Gun" at a private collection dispersal, in full Native American beaded regalia, and couldn't resist the heavily discounted price. I don't believe the wrist is damaged, I think the well-done "repair" is just part of the dress-up. But even if it is cracked/broken, I don't care. It will likely spend it's time with me hanging on a wall.
(https://i.ibb.co/r3WsMRr/Jackie-Brown-Canoe-Gun.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G9hTk4S)
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Mike,
How about if the call it a Kayak Gun :o
AsMs
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My first trade gun was a scratch built chiefs grade, with a 30” barrel. I loved it. It was handy, and authentic. I never wanted one that was shorter. IMO, blanket guns, and canoe guns, are more stage props, than usable firearms. Besides you don’t have to deal with the HC crowd every time you drag it out. Just sayin’.
Hungry Horse
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There are some pictures of very much shortened Indian guns in Firearms of the American West, but I believe are horse guns, not canoe guns. :o
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"There are some pictures of very much shortened Indian guns " Well, a sketch anyhow. See Charles S. Hanson III "The Trade gun Sketchbook", pg. 47, third from top. How it became short is worth speculation.
Cheers,
R
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I believe many of these short guns came about after barrels ruptured, or were dented and made unusable. I know there are records indicating some guns were shortened for concealment during the Indian wars. But, I think they were in the minority.
I also should point out that the shorter a muzzleloader gets, the easier it is to put yourself in danger loading them.
Hungry Horse
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H.H. you are correct on that you have to pay attention when loading but that's any fitearm. I have two very short guns. One is a plains style with a short 20 inch barrel percussion. The other is a flintlock trade gun style. Both have killed several deer. In a deer blind or stalking through a thick swamp they are deadly.
At Fort Michlimacinac they have a very short Fowler possible Brown Bess on display.That the natives might have used in the Fort massacre. But none the less it was probably cut down for the attack.
Here in the North it's nothing more than a term we use for short guns. No different than calling one a blanket gun. Oldtravler
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Here are 2 photos, out of about 60 that I took, of a Haida Tradegun with a 16 1/2" long barrel. This shortened gun resides in the Museum of Anthropology at the University of British Columbia campus in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I had called ahead and asked the curator if they could pull it out of the display for me. We set a date and when I arrived the gun was waiting in the observation room for me to photograph and study.
David
(https://i.ibb.co/99v2PSt/Left-Side-Haida-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRMH0wf)
(https://i.ibb.co/jM7X1qG/Right-Side-Haida-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsbQPh9)
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There were probably more short barreled guns back in the day than guns with vent liners, aniline dye stains or polyurethane finishes.
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There were probably more short barreled guns back in the day than guns with vent liners, aniline dye stains or polyurethane finishes.
Proof? ;)
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Proof? ;)
Around 90 works best for me. If it's higher than that, my eyes water. Any lower than that, and I feel like I'm wasting my time.
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Proof? ;)
Around 90 works best for me. If it's higher than that, my eyes water. Any lower than that, and I feel like I'm wasting my time.
Exactly, and 80 sips real smoof. Hey is it Winter yet? :P
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Winter harvest rye
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Here are 2 photos, out of about 60 that I took, of a Haida Tradegun with a 16 1/2" long barrel. This shortened gun resides in the Museum of Anthropology at the University of British Columbia campus in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I had called ahead and asked the curator if they could pull it out of the display for me. We set a date and when I arrived the gun was waiting in the observation room for me to photograph and study.
David
(https://i.ibb.co/99v2PSt/Left-Side-Haida-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRMH0wf)
(https://i.ibb.co/jM7X1qG/Right-Side-Haida-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsbQPh9)
Mr. Rase
These guns were made for a group of short ( pigmy ) Canadian aboriginals ( long distinct ) and only a few have survived.
This post is from another short Canadian.
Fred
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I can understand Mike Brooks's frustration with this subject. I feel the same about flintlock Hawkens.
By definition any gun I put in a canoe is a canoe gun., regardless of length.
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I kinda favor the long extinct Canadian pygmies. They probably had smaller canoes as well. And I have heard that they were very short-sighted.
I agree with Alacran about canoe rifles. Don't really make good canoe paddles though.
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Plus there is no way of knowing when these guns were shortened. It could have happened long after cartridge guns were common, and a full length flintlock wasn’t practical for hunting, or fighting.
Hungry Horse
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Not caring if it is HC or not, I built a 20 ga flint lock half stock with a 36" barrel, Even put a cannon muzzle on the barrel. Handles well, shoots better than I can, especially at clay birds, and is light enough to carry all day. Meets all the criteria I wanted.
Mark
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The attack at Fort Detroit an Fort Michilamackenac was in the 1700s. Just a tad bit before the cartridge gun era. IIRC. Oldtravler
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Mr. Rase, do you have any better pictures of the carving on that shortie? Looks like someone with some serious totem pole carving skills had his way with it...
Greg
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Mr. Rase, do you have any better pictures of the carving on that shortie? Looks like someone with some serious totem pole carving skills had his way with it...
Greg
(https://i.ibb.co/0KrV1hY/Buttstock-Left-Haida-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RNc4tzQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/hmV3SdV/Forestock-Bottom-Haida-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G5RzqMR)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pt6YLgB/Forestock-Left-Haida-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YbLWChv)
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TKs David - amazing carving & typically Haida.
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OK Rase, when you gonna repop that little gun?
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Looking at the carvings on the stock, I can definitely make out what appear to be 2 or 3 crudely shaped canoes. :o ;D :P
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Thanks for the extra photos...for you guys up in the PNW, is that a fairly usual native gunstock treatment, or is this one an anomaly? It certainly looks well executed from here!
Greg
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After much totem pole writing study. The markings say. Canoe gun patent 1760 by Old Chief low in water....! Sorry Mike couldn't resist...!!! Oldtravler
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OK Rase, when you gonna repop that little gun?
Way ahead of you Mike.
(https://i.ibb.co/RD3w6FN/IMG-5200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6WHCtM8)
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Canoe guns have no historical context. There were no guns purpose built for using whilst paddling a canoe.
I hate to agree with Mike, but here goes, ;)
Any NW gun shorter than 30" only existed because someone screwed up and blew the front end off of it!
I know these little shorties look kind of cool, but please don't shorten a useful piece for that purpose.
If you care to be historically or even hysterically correct short start your ball, this will blow off the front end of your barrel, then square it up with a hacksaw and file. That's how it was done in the old days. I have seen several guns turned unintentionally into "canoe guns". ;)
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OK Rase, when you gonna repop that little gun?
Way ahead of you Mike.
(https://i.ibb.co/RD3w6FN/IMG-5200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6WHCtM8)
I'm not surprised. Now for the part I'm most interested in. THE CARVING!. I'm pretty fascinated by that gun. I have seen a few of these in the past but they were of standard length, but carved in the same way which I find very cool. You'll probably have to spend some time in a sweat lodge before you get enough NA mojo going on to execute that carving correctly. I'm sure all that carving has a very specific meaning.....if you don't get it right you might insult the size of the Chief's feet and be banished from the West coast for ever.
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I believe many of these short guns came about after barrels ruptured, or were dented and made unusable. I know there are records indicating some guns were shortened for concealment during the Indian wars. But, I think they were in the minority.
I also should point out that the shorter a muzzleloader gets, the easier it is to put yourself in danger loading them.
Hungry Horse
I have a rusty old Harpers Ferry Model 1842 U.S. Percussion Musket "barn find" here in Alabama that has been abused and crudely cut down in almost every way possible (barrel and stock). The barrel needs cut down again because it looks like some former owner decided to bounce the muzzle on a hard surface to try to shake loose the charge that is still encrusted inside such that the muzzle edge is now dinged every which-way. (It's in secure storage until I decide how best to remove the old charge when all metal parts are rusted solid.) "If this old gun could talk...."
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Since we are having fun with this. Here's a question ? We all know that their were European coach guns with short barrels. Could some of them been brought over here ? Could there have been barrels sent here an built here ?
The barrel I opened was checked by several people in the know. Had correct proof marks. It was Not according to them cut off. The barrel measured 24 3/4 in length. Really curios as to anyone's thoughts ? Oldtravler
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Mr. Rase, do you have any better pictures of the carving on that shortie? Looks like someone with some serious totem pole carving skills had his way with it... Greg
(https://i.ibb.co/0KrV1hY/Buttstock-Left-Haida-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RNc4tzQ)
Hold it muzzle down and look at the buttstock bottom edge, and it's pretty clear (at least to me) there is carved an eye, mouth (with teeth) and big ear. Probably a mirror image carved on the opposite side, to make a complete face when looking at it edge-on. Very intriguing. Someone with way more artistic talent than me had a lot of time on their hands....
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Here are 2 photos, out of about 60 that I took, of a Haida Tradegun with a 16 1/2" long barrel. This shortened gun resides in the Museum of Anthropology at the University of British Columbia campus in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I had called ahead and asked the curator if they could pull it out of the display for me. We set a date and when I arrived the gun was waiting in the observation room for me to photograph and study.
David
Ohho, if I know. Was in Vancouver as a saylor in think it was 1976 but was not ashore hmmm the ship was invaded With beautiful girls ;)
Runar
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Hold it muzzle down and look at the buttstock bottom edge, and it's pretty clear (at least to me) there is carved an eye, mouth (with teeth) and big ear. Probably a mirror image carved on the opposite side, to make a complete face when looking at it edge-on. Very intriguing. Someone with way more artistic talent than me had a lot of time on their hands....
Here is the museums description of the carving.
Carved semi-cylindrical wood has a bird with ovoid in ovoid eyes, inverted split u ears, a split u beak, ovoid in wings at the sides with u form tips, three digit claws, and a three-feathered u form tail. The wood grip is carved with an creature on top of another. The top creature has oval in tapering oval eyes, inverted split u ears, curling nostrils, an open mouth showing teeth, a limb appendage at either side starting with a split u within a u form, an ovoid in ovoid, and a split u at the tip, and inward curving three digit paws. The bottom creature has oval inside oval eyes, a thin horizontal nose, and a thin wide grin. At either side below the bottom creature, there is a split u within a u form, an ovoid, and a double u form at the bottom. At either side along both creatures, there is an ovoid in ovoid with a pair of u forms next to it, an ovoid in ovoid with an s shape next to it, a three panel dorsal fin-like feature, a pair of split u's within larger u forms within a larger u form, and a three digit claw.
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In the 1980s, divers recovered a short, French flintlock in Little Traverse Bay. It had a 27 inch barrel and was loaded with duck shot. Experts agreed that it had been made that way, not shortened. Mr. Larry Young, the historical director of Ft. Michimilimackinac built a bench copy of that gun. It's on display at the fort today.
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Karl that's the one I'm referring too...The canoe gun is just a current term from about or started in the 1960s or so..IT'S just a term we use now...it's no big deal...!!! Oldtravler
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That's extremely interesting Karl. Do you have any more info on that French gun? , time frame, photos of found gun, photos of Mr. Young's reproduction, etc.? Thanks.
John
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I don't have any photos since the repro and the original belong to Ft. Michimilimackinac. Mr. Young is now retired, but I can give you his phone number. He doesn't do email. He has a wealth of knowledge about this particular subject. His number is listed in the Mackinaw City phone directory, (Michigan) which may be available online.
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I think this thread is straying from the original question. Yes, there were "canoe" guns. They were almost certainly cut down in North America. Mike's beating a dead horse insisting that there no manufactured "canoe" guns.
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There seems to be a fair amount of examples of cut down trade guns up and down the western coast of the United States, and Canada. How they got the name canoe guns is a mystery, but many are decorated with Northwest style carving not unlike the carving on Northwest Indian Ocean going canoes. There popularity in this culture seems to stem from the large multi level houses favored by several of these native peoples, which they spent long winters in. The Northwest carved shortened trade gun was a statis symbol, and a badge of office. And was specifically designed not for loading in a canoe, but for maneuvering and loading inside a house. Pistols were also very popular in this culture, but very scarce, hence the cut down trade gun.
Hungry Horse
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What is know today as a canoe gun was called in the period a ‘short gun’. Some call them canoe guns based on an assumption about them. Though there are plenty of period references to ‘Indians, canoes, and short guns’ there’s narry a mention of a canoe gun. A distinction without a difference really, but there you go.
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This is probably the 12th time we’ve discussed canoe guns. Always interesting. So unfortunate someone decided to name shortened guns “canoe guns”. “Blanket guns” or “cut-off buffalo-running guns” would have been far more digestible.
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Indeed, Rich. Indeed.
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This is probably the 12th time we’ve discussed canoe guns. Always interesting. So unfortunate someone decided to name shortened guns “canoe guns”. “Blanket guns” or “cut-off buffalo-running guns” would have been far more digestible.
We ban talk of all sorts of things on this forum. Could we please ban the term "canoe gun"? If we don't I'm going to go play on the highway.....
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The modern day use of the term 'canoe gun" comes from knuckleheads that think in order to load a gun it has to be absolutely vertical. ;D.
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The modern day use of the term 'canoe gun" comes from knuckleheads that think in order to load a gun it has to be absolutely vertical. ;D.
Exactly. And THIS is why we see sheet brass buttplates on originals worn through at the heel. Because that is where long guns rested on the ground every time they were loaded, held at a roof-pitch angle.
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZYjTr4X/100-7190.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dLTKvCM)
This is what's left of a trade gun discovered about 14 years ago in a couple feet of water in one of our local lakes. The barrel length is 26 3/4" in 28 gauge. It was manufactured at this length...never shortened, dented, blown up etc. The evidence of the brass furniture that once was applied is still evident in the staining and lack of deterioration where it once was. The person who found it did not spend any time looking for the hardware that had fallen away from the relic and was surely just resting in the gravel on the bottom of the lake...the rod pipe and the muzzle band, for example.
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZYjTr4X/100-7190.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dLTKvCM)
This is what's left of a trade gun discovered about 14 years ago in a couple feet of water in one of our local lakes. The barrel length is 26 3/4" in 28 gauge. It was manufactured at this length...never shortened, dented, blown up etc. The evidence of the brass furniture that once was applied is still evident in the staining and lack of deterioration where it once was. The person who found it did not spend any time looking for the hardware that had fallen away from the relic and was surely just resting in the gravel on the bottom of the lake...the rod pipe and the muzzle band, for example.
I have seen HBC listings for trade guns with two foot barrels.
The one pictured obviously fell out of a Native American paddle powered boat. ;)
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I have seen HBC listings for trade guns with two foot barrels.
The one pictured obviously fell out of a Native American paddle powered boat. ;)
Could it have been Minn Kota powered Mike/ :o ;D
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Might have been Minkota - too far north for Lacota.
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;D
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The lock plate on this one dates it around 1865. So it could have been being used right up to and into the 20th C, here in North Central BC. Sure would like to be able to ask it some questions: why is the butt stock smashed off and the lock in full cock? The cock is holding a white flint (maybe one of Rich's river rocks.)
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The lock plate on this one dates it around 1865. So it could have been being used right up to and into the 20th C, here in North Central BC. Sure would like to be able to ask it some questions: why is the butt stock smashed off and the lock in full cock? The cock is holding a white flint (maybe one of Rich's river rocks.)
Stock is busted off from smashing large pike or musky on the head. ;)
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I was thinking more likely it's owner tried to dispatch a beaver. We don't have predetorial fish like that in our lakes around here...further north, yes. Here, just trout, char, burbot, and a few smaller course fish. Or perhaps the owner fell on the ice and smashed his gun - a more likely scenario.
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I was thinking more likely it's owner tried to dispatch a beaver. We don't have predetorial fish like that in our lakes around here...further north, yes. Here, just trout, char, burbot, and a few smaller course fish. Or perhaps the owner fell on the ice and smashed his gun - a more likely scenario.
Hmmm. Quite possibly an elusive ice fishing gun......
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Or blunt force trauma powered ice auger! :o ;D
Okay, just playing off Mike ... I'm done here.
Cool gun though and I like it.
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I have a rusty old Harpers Ferry Model 1842 U.S. Percussion Musket "barn find" here in Alabama that has been abused and crudely cut down in almost every way possible (barrel and stock). The barrel needs cut down again because it looks like some former owner decided to bounce the muzzle on a hard surface to try to shake loose the charge that is still encrusted inside such that the muzzle edge is now dinged every which-way. (It's in secure storage until I decide how best to remove the old charge when all metal parts are rusted solid.) "If this old gun could talk...."
It would say ouch Ouch OUCH... stop that :o
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Ya know it was originally a CANOE augar for fishing. Ya put the ramrod through the trigger guard an spin. Cut 6 inch perch holes perfect...!
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I don't know if this is allowed, so Dennis, please delete if it's inappropriate.
This is a screenshot of a page from the Muzzleloading forum that shows a post by Matt Denison, former proprietor of North star West. I would take this as the definitive statement on the origin of the term, "canoe gun":
(https://i.ibb.co/z4LVLgP/Canoe-Gun.png) (https://ibb.co/YLKBKSf)
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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I don't know if this is allowed, so Dennis, please delete if it's inappropriate.
This is a screenshot of a page from the Muzzleloading forum that shows a post by Matt Denison, former proprietor of North star West. I would take this as the definitive statement on the origin of the term, "canoe gun":
(https://i.ibb.co/z4LVLgP/Canoe-Gun.png) (https://ibb.co/YLKBKSf)
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
The whole concept of needing a short gun to be able to stay seated while loading it is just plain silly. I never had any trouble loading a gun with a 48" barrel while staying seated in a canoe..... ::)
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The saga continues.
(https://i.ibb.co/NNwdQwt/eating-popcorn-smiley-emoticon-1.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
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The saga continues.
(https://i.ibb.co/NNwdQwt/eating-popcorn-smiley-emoticon-1.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
On and on and on. It's winter, nothing else to do.
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Hey if youse got nothing to do you're welcome to come out here and shovel snow for me! I even have a canoe, we can use it as a toboggan down the nearest gas pipeline.
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Hey if youse got nothing to do you're welcome to come out here and shovel snow for me! I even have a canoe, we can use it as a toboggan down the nearest gas pipeline.
I'm thinking of doing a Grizzly Adams TV marathon today :P He was one evil SOB killing those trout..... I wonder if he used his canoe gun? :o