AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on March 16, 2017, 07:44:05 AM
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Hi, all.
I've got this thing stuck in my mind and I don't know what to do about it. I want a shooting bag made from pillow ticking! I have heard that the old timers had such bags. Some couldn't afford a leather one, so made or bought cloth ones. Wouldn't that be cool? Maybe not but I want one.
Anybody know if this was done much? I found this picture:
(https://s27.postimg.org/57i5gwb83/46772259b6d37cc4cf2317027ea83593.jpg)
Look cool. I think I'd like the flap to be of leather but not as rough as this. Anybody do this or have some ideas? I never made a bag and can't sew well but am willing to learn to make a pouch if it will be reasonably historically accurate. I want to make a smaller bag for a squirrel gun.
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There is some evidence for cloth shooting bags in the 18th century but no extant ones that I know of. I have made cloth bags but I have always doubled the thickness of the fabric and never allow the machine sewing to show on the outside, I always hand finish with needle and thread. I wouldn't equate being able to afford to cloth or leather. If you have a rifle, you could afford a bag.
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Would a cloth bag dry out faster and keep the contents from remaining wet after a thunderstorm? Yes, boiled leather would probably keep water out but if it got soaked it might stay wet longer than cloth.
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I think cloth shooting bags are quite likely. Made of pillow ticking, not so much. Ticking would have cost money, and would have been valuable for other uses, besides being too light for the job. And, doubling it would have just doubled the cost. I suspect existing light canvas bags may have been repurposed into a shooting bag. There is some evidence that the eared cloth hats seen in some early western artwork, might actually have been a decorated, recycled, surplus canvas bag that appeared to have ears because of the corners at the bottom of the bag.
Hungry Horse
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I think cloth shooting bags are quite likely. Made of pillow ticking, not so much. Ticking would have cost money, and would have been valuable for other uses, besides being too light for the job. And, doubling it would have just doubled the cost. I suspect existing light canvas bags may have been repurposed into a shooting bag. There is some evidence that the eared cloth hats seen in some early western artwork, might actually have been a decorated, recycled, surplus canvas bag that appeared to have ears because of the corners at the bottom of the bag.
Hungry Horse
My grandparents were just about as, errr... Appalachian... as you can get; given what life-lessons I learned from them, I'd say the above is dead center in the 10-ring.
Once they'd both passed, I spent some time restoring their home, to be put on the market: the front yard sprinkler systems, among a few other things, had a few leaks. Grandpa had patched the original galvanized sprinkler line in several places; I found more than a couple spots he'd used 3-4 different types an sizes of pipe, within less than a foot. He'd used whatever recycled chunks and pieces he had in the garage at the time, rather than spend a dollar or two on six inches of plastic pipe.
Now, to put this perspective: Grandpa's only son-in-law (my old Pop) owned a hardware store. Less than a mile from Grandpa's house. And Pop would happily have given Grandpa the needed repair parts... but Grandpa wasn't havin' any of that, neither: those new stock parts could be sold, to a customer, for good cash money ($.50 here, $1.00 there...); so, since he had some "perfectly good" pieces he'd "saved" (dug outa the ground somewheres, in case he ever needed them), he'd just use those.
I have no doubt in mind: a lot of those "Southern Mountain" bags were made outa just about whatever those folks happened to have alayin around the place... but only if it couldn't be put to a "better" use.
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Interesting guys, interesting. If pillow ticking bags are fantasy pieces, I'd like to see original bags made from other type of cloth. Just seems like all you ever see are leather ones.
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I think a cloth bag, used for a shooting bag, will be a pretty rare artifact to find. The wear and tear of everyday life, along with cloths fragile nature, would make survival pretty rare. I do seem to remember some discussions in magazines about if some of the bags pictured in early paintings were leather, or cloth.
Hungry Horse
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Yep, what Hunger Horse said ... ^^^
Cloth, leather, horn, wood or any natural material has a low survivability rate. :(
Heck, with all of the 'modern de-icers' our 'modern cars' seem to suffer the same fate ... >:(
The mechanics here in Pennsylvania are amazed when working on my 2000 Grand Cherokee, until I tell them, "it came from Phoenix, Arizona." ;) ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Along the same lines, while cleaning out an old farm house , I found some homemade dresses for a little girl that were made out of flour sacks . These were early 1900s ,the lady at a local antique store went nuts! as in PAID GOOD!! . People have recycled/ repurposed for years. I`ve got an old cane bottom chair in my shop that someone rebottomed with old innertubes. I know this doesn't have anything to do with shooting bags sorry. Nathan
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"Shot Bag" Trap and Skeet Vests too !!! 8)
Back on topic -
If you needed a bag, you used what you had ...
Old cowboy boot (or any boot), boot tops were used for fence staple bags. (Did I just say that???)
So, why not 'shooting' bags? ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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The origins of the cropped top logger boots seen in the old Lil' Abner comic strip was taken from the old hillbilly practice of cutting off the top of the boots, to get enough good Leater to make children's shoes. I know this because I have a picture of some shoes my grandfather made from boot tops, and I have his shoe making tools. Recycling ain't new, it new wave.
Hungry Horse
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I have a bag here at the house that was used by a bull to carry his balls in before my buddy got a hold of it. Yep, a bulls scrotum. works good and tougher than nails.
Mark
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Iassac, who does the French In Wisconsin, just had a recent blog about cloth shooting bags. That's what I use for my fowlers, and love them. Mine were a canvas looking like a fustain material, but had the pillow ticking lining. Very soft, durable and ... different.
I ran it through the dirt and used it a few times before I waterproofed/sealed it with a beeswax mix and it looks many, many year old. Love it!
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That sounds cool! It just seems everybody and their brother has a leather shooting bag, but I have heard historically cloth ones were used. I'd like to have one, a rather small one, to go along with my squirrel rifle (when it gets made) for hunting.
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I'm really digging this one guys:
(https://s30.postimg.org/dpmmz5apd/2ebd74ccea72cff63af5f13d833759d8.jpg)
It looks like it might be some kind of waterproofed cloth? I'd like one just like it.
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No picture is showing up sir.
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It probably was a Sail.
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I'm really digging this one guys:
(https://s30.postimg.org/dpmmz5apd/2ebd74ccea72cff63af5f13d833759d8.jpg)
It looks like it might be some kind of waterproofed cloth? I'd like one just like it.
This would be relatively simple to accomplish. Find a piece of tight woven cotton or linen fabric in the weight you like and paint it with black latex paint. It would simulate the look and effects of tarred cloth.
Here's some detailed information http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/faq.php?faq=faq1#faq_faq102
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I really like the looks of this bag. The original knapsacks made in this way were coated in a mixture of linseed oil, beeswax, and some type of natural colorant. The colorant was often lampblack, or brick dust.
I do suspect that the seamed bag bottom might have been something not seen often though. Most bags of this type would probably been one piece, with a folded bottom, and flap. I think it was quite. Ommon for these back woodsy bags to have no flap at all.
Hungry Horse
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Very interesting, guys! I wonder of any resources out there to teach a man how to sew up a bag such as this? As suggested I'd paint it with black latex paint to make it look like tarred cloth. I don't know how to sew but am willing to learn. I just don't think I'm going to find a bag like this pre-made.
So if I were to pattern my bag off the one above in the picture, but used one piece of cloth instead of the sewn bottom, would you say this would be a relatively historically correct shooting bag for a mid-19th century squirrel rifle? Thanks all!!
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YouTube has 100's of hours of instructional videos on sewing leather, canvas and cloth. You might want to spend some time there watching videos
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YouTube has 100's of hours of instructional videos on sewing leather, canvas and cloth. You might want to spend some time there watching videos
Anything specific to shooting bags?
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Sewing is sewing
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The problem with untreated cloth bags is they have absolutely zero water resistance. Leather, tarred cloth, linoleum cloth or oiled cloth are much better suited for shooting bags unless you just never planned on being out in the elements, and I mean back then, not now.
This all really depends on your location really. The eastern farmer that used his rifle for putting a squirrel in the pot, might have no problem with a simple cloth bag. On the other hand someone on one of the several historical frontiers has a life or death need to keep his shooting supplies in the best working order he can.
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I'm really digging this one guys:
(https://s30.postimg.org/dpmmz5apd/2ebd74ccea72cff63af5f13d833759d8.jpg)
It looks like it might be some kind of waterproofed cloth? I'd like one just like it.
Yes, that is tarred, or painted cloth.
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Black Flex Seal over cotton batting or ticking? I just might give that a try.
Definitely going to work up a leather and ticking bag. Really like the way this looks.
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Black Flex Seal over cotton batting or ticking? I just might give that a try.
Definitely going to work up a leather and ticking bag. Really like the way this looks.
Simple black gloss oil paint works well, but can get stiff. The best I ever made up was black gloss latex mixed 50/50 with BLO, mixed very, very well with a electric drill mixer. Dried it outside over many hot sunny days on a simple 2x4 stand I rigged up. Nice an pliable.
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I would think that the ground cloths and raincoats that are vulcanized would make good cloth shooting bags. The civil war sutlers have them. In fact this thread is giving me the idea to repurpose one I have tucked away unused.
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I would think that the ground cloths and raincoats that are vulcanized would make good cloth shooting bags. The civil war sutlers have them. In fact this thread is giving me the idea to repurpose one I have tucked away unused.
So long as you intend your bag to be of an era after vulcanization became common. The process was patented in 1845 both here and in England by different people. I have seen an old book from the early 1850s that shows all the products available from rubber cloth.
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Period costs: cotton, expensive; linen, not quite so; hemp, pretty common and cheap. Think old sails after they just won't hold another patch. Maybe a tarp or tent. We sometimes forget that cotton is only recently cheap, Eli Whitney and all that history.
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Period costs: cotton, expensive; linen, not quite so; hemp, pretty common and cheap. Think old sails after they just won't hold another patch. Maybe a tarp or tent. We sometimes forget that cotton is only recently cheap, Eli Whitney and all that history.
I believe most sails historically were hemp/linen and even wool (Viking). I have read in one of my archeological reports of a Roman age ship sail fragment discovered in Egypt that was reported to be made from cotton.
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Whole lot of supposition and not much of anything of a factual nature here:
This is from an orderly book during the war of Regulation in North Carolina.
Enoe Camp Friday May 10th 1771.
Parole—London. Countersign—Dublin.
Field Officer for the Day—Colonel Thomson.
The Commanding Officer of each Detachment will send to Mr. Hogen this morning for the Quantity of Ticking, Gartering, Thread and Needles to make shot Bags which they will Immediately get made by the Taylor of their Respective Detachments to be Distributed to their several Corps that wants them.
Another document from the same period, shows that the Govt was billed for the raw materials for the ticking shot bags, and that they had a waistcoat sized button to close them.
Invoice from Johnston & Thackston for supplies for the militia
Johnston & Thackston
1771
Volume 22, Page 455
His Excellency Govt. Tryon to Johnston & Thackston,
1771.
Dr.
May 7.
To 1 quire paper
674 yd. Bedtyke for Shotbags, 4s. 4d.
47 yds. Cotton for blankets and tools, 3s.
6 oz. thread for making Do, 6d.
3 pr. Garters, 10d.
5 doz. Vest Buttons for Shotbags, 10d.
1 brod. hoe, 5s. 8d.;
1 quire paper, 1s. 6d.
21 yds, onabs. for hunting-Shirts, 1s. 3d.
2 oz. thr’d, Do, 6d.
Cash paid for making Do
5 narrow axes, 7s. 6d.
3 Do, 6s. 6d.
3 broad Do, 7s. 6d
1 Do
2 blanketts for the Hospital, 1s. 11d
Rec’d June 20, 1771, the Above Acc’t in full.
JOHNSTON & THACKSTON.
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That is pretty awesome Luke.
One thing to note when it comes to ticking. It was not always striped. Sometimes it was plain, sometimes it was even multi color striped. I not even always cotton.
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Hi Luke! I was just wondering what had happened to you.
I thought about running down some period references to cloth shooting pouches, but everything I've seen dates to the 18th century and the original poster was asking about 1840-50s pouches, and era about which I know little.
Kind of interesting to see the price difference between "bedtyke" at just under 13 yards for a penny, versus "cotton for blankets and tools" at 1 1/3 yards per penny.
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Native American and Metis commonly used cloth shooting bags.
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Waksupi,
Here is a link to a beautiful Ken Scott ticking bag on the Contemporary Makers blog;
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/04/ken-scott-hunting-pouch-and-horn-set.html
David
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There is some evidence for cloth shooting bags in the 18th century but no extant ones that I know of. I have made cloth bags but I have always doubled the thickness of the fabric and never allow the machine sewing to show on the outside, I always hand finish with needle and thread. I wouldn't equate being able to afford to cloth or leather. If you have a rifle, you could afford a bag.
I love it!!
~Tony
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I think this answers the question about if there were cloth shooting bags or not. But, I feel it still allows a certain amount of speculation as to if the average person would buy material for a shooting bag, or repurpose existing material, or even an existing bag.
Hungry Horse
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Given what I know of the Chinese made or what ever country its imported from, I would not dream of making anything from it. VERY weak if torn down the stripe.
Dan
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The little black cloth bag is a contemporary piece by Jack Hubbard. Pitch coated cloth.
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Re-found this recently:
August 16, 1776. Supplement.
RUN away from the subscriber living on the levels of Green brier, two convict servant men. One named WILLIAM ROW, 18 or 19 years old, about 5 feet 8 inches high, of a fair complexion, has dark hair, is an artful fellow, and may forge a pass, as he writes a tolerable good hand; had on, when he went away, shirt, drawers, and leggins, of coarse country linen, and took with him a coat and waistcoat of cotton and linen almost white, also a smooth bore gun of the best sort, double breached, which had part of the stock broke off before, a shot bag and powder horn, very much carved, the strap of the powder horn made of striped girting, and the shot bag of blue plush. The other named ISAAC SINGER, 5 feet 4 or 5 inches high, about 25 years old, thin visaged, small made, of a dark complexion, and has very thin whitish hair; had on, when he went away, old leather breeches, a coarse shirt, brown leggins, and old shoes. They are both Englishmen, and took with them a fur hat, besides other things too tedious to mention. Whoever apprehends the said servants, and secures them so as they may be had again, shall have 40s. reward for each, if taken in the county; if out thereof 4 l. for each, paid by ARCHER MATTHEWS.
Found here: http://www.oldetoolshop.com/trekking/library/mixedbag.html
A blue plush bag would be different, for sure.
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What about Levi pant material. How long has that been around? Could that have been used? Just asking. Oldtravler
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What about Levi pant material. How long has that been around? Could that have been used? Just asking. Oldtravler
I believe that would be 'indigo twill' fabric.
Indigo being an old time trade item once in high demand.
Twill is ancient too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_dye
Cheers,
Smoketown
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I really hate to see these bag conversations, I have three flinters and one cap lock SXS shotgun with two bags apiece for them. I have limited wall space left and now I want a coupe cloth bags too, I like that pillow ticking. My grandparents could make just about anything out of whatever was handy, and it looked good and worked well too. I guess I have too make another bag.
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cloth bag is 3 years old its been in the woods fall and winter its canvas outer with a ticking lining
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbPJRJQ%2F029.jpg&hash=d1d78828ffb6f2a9e7145d103b64b3981ee54a21) (http://ibb.co/bHaTXk)
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better pictures more of a haversack can put jerky or a granola bar in it
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcTHLdQ%2F108.jpg&hash=926bb02aacdb4f0adad8d818cc9aefff354e40df) (http://ibb.co/e1ttyQ)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeBvj55%2F111.jpg&hash=6619abd3b9c2acc3ed721166332c38a114ab0677) (http://ibb.co/gbnLdQ)
pictures hosting site (http://imgbb.com/)
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https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/50/2/BAG-GAME-C
This is the one, also from track, that I use with my .50 Verner rifle.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/50/3/BAG-UPLAND-C
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPossibles%2520bags%2Fbag-upland-c_1_zpsxefeoqm9.jpg&hash=256e7b6758d0a5917b877af4f2dfe240390a4c9c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Possibles%20bags/bag-upland-c_1_zpsxefeoqm9.jpg.html)
another:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/50/3/BAG-WOOD-C