AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: snapper on March 17, 2017, 01:39:07 AM
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At Friendship last year I purchased a couple of range rods from Rice. They are nice and I like them. I was wishing that I had flexibility to have the handle be able to rotate as the jag twisted around inside the barrel.
So, today I went to the hardware store and purchased a couple of collars, cut a 2" piece of loose fitting fuel line to put between the collar and the fixed handle. Now I have the best of both worlds. A fixed handle for when I need it and a free rotating rod when cleaning.
Fleener
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Fleener, can you explain "collars" or show us a picture?
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http://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/60MM-Shaft-Collar.html
something like this.
Fleener
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How did you rig the collars and fuel line to make a rotating cleaning rod. You got a picture of your rod and how the setup looks.
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A front hub off of a bicycle make a pretty good rotating handle for a range rod. If of course you aren't like me and think range rods dangerous.
Hungry Horse
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A front hub off of a bicycle make a pretty good rotating handle for a range rod. If of course you aren't like me and think range rods dangerous.
Hungry Horse
They're only dangerous if you try to shoot one down range ... :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi161.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft209%2Fsnapper245%2FP1000615_zpsumqctypb.jpg&hash=714d542e1ef1927356248e3cbad0bcd0d25d24be) (http://s161.photobucket.com/user/snapper245/media/P1000615_zpsumqctypb.jpg.html)
here is a picture.
I was going to turn a piece of wood and put on there, but have not taken the time. So, I looked around the shop to see what I had that would work, and came up with the fuel line.
The fuel line allows the rod to turn with rifling and not unscrew the jag. Not a huge issue for a slow twist rifle, but it is an issue for faster twist guns. The fixed handle is still on the rod and allows me to use the ball puller or whatever I need a fixed handle for.
thought about putting a bearing on it, but I dont think it needs it.
Fleener
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TRESO makes one that you can insert a pin in and stop the rotation or leave the pin out if you want it to rotate - under $30 for a 44"- 5/16" dia rod -"GI CLEANING & LOADING RODS
In the past the “GI” one piece steel cleaning rods, which made very good muzzle loading range rods, were readily available at most gun shows. The availability seems to have dried up in recent years; therefore TRESO has re-introduced its version of this famous rod. The one-piece concept has been retained but in several different lengths. The steel shaft is 5/16” diameter with a 10x32 treaded end. As on the original GI model, the “T” handle swivels. TRESO has added a small cross hole through the handle and steel shaft so the handle may be made non-rotating with a piece of wire or small nail, allowing the use of a bullet puller. With handle rotation, the cleaning patch on a jag will follow the spiral of the rifling, giving a better cleaning action. Use standard TRESO 10x32 threaded accessories with the GI Rod such as the button jag, bullet puller and worm. As with all loading and cleaning rods you should use a rod guide to protect the bore from rod wear. Made In The USA."
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Not so. I was at a range a few years ago and a newbie was there loading with his range rod. He loaded the gun with powder, and after starting his "nice tight patch ball" he ran the load with its lightly greased patch down the bore in one stroke. BANG! Rod, ball, and fire, erupted from the muzzle. Luckily the rod had a round ball on top that pushed his hand away. He got a couple of scorched fingers, and some singed eyebrows, and that was about it. The gun was .36 cal. Which also made for less damage. After a thorough examination the conclusion was that the lightly greased patch rammed home in one stroke generated enough compression heat to ignite the patch on its way to he powder.
I think all conditions have to be just right for this to happen, but since I don't know for sure just what those conditions are, it was easier to just lose the range rod.
Hungry Horse
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I doubt it was compression; more likely a latent spark.
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So if it was a latent spark,why didn't it go off when he poured the powder into the barrel? Nobody wants to heart these stories because they are all hopelessly attached to there range rods.
Hungry Horse
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I can not understand why a range rod would be different than a standard re in the case cited. What am I missing?
Dennis
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HH, I'm with Mr. Glazner on this. Why would loading with a RR be any different than loading with the rod of your rifle?
Not trying to pick a fight or anything but if you know something we don't, educate us man.
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Ever seen a fire piston?
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i think the key point here is that the range rod was sent down the barrel in a single stroke. unlikely that a ram rod is stiff enough to do the same. also we are taught short strokes with a rr to avoid breakage.
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I'd hate to tangle with a "newbie" who could slam a "nice tight patch ball" combo down a 36-42" barrel in a single stroke of a range rod with a force equal to that generated by a fire piston.
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I thought that the muzzle loader 'fire-piston' and dieseling myths were debunked some time ago ...
Hey, I've been wrong before. ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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The difference between a range rod, and the wooden ramrod, is the ridgidity, and handle, and or knob, on the range rod. That ridged rod, with its comfy knob, or handle,and muzzle guide, allows one to load in one rapid stroke, without fear of breaking the rod. Rather than a couple of slower staged strokes.
If accidents happened every time, the problem would be well known. But, everything has to be just right for combustion to occur. Look at the reports of accidental discharges while loading, and you will find that in most cases they have no cause that is discernible. I bought a firepiston just to test the theory. They are a finicky piece of equipment, that requires proper seal,rapid stroke, and proper combustible material with just the right amount, and type of lubrication. I think caliber, and barrel length may also play a part but have no divinities proof.
I just don't want to take the risk. I also feel that if you are focused on how fast you can load your muzzleloader, you need to move on to something more modern.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse,
I have 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 inch range rods from 10 to 48 inches long.
Most of them have 2 inch 'shifter balls' for handles.
I use them with the same care that I do with a tapered wooden rod. ;)
The only nice things are is that they don't hurt my palm when I push (not pound) on the rod end AFTER the ball contacts the powder, and I can SEE the ball above my sights !!! :o :-X ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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As if having to worry about our 12L14 barrels bursting on us wasn't enough. Now we have to worry about our steel range rods too. I imagine the consequences of using both together would be like pressing a plunger detonator on a bundle of dynamite. ::)
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Folks, granted, I think the danger is small, but not nonexistent. I think the person that this will happen to, is the same person than many other accidents likely will happen to. Every one of us has seen the shooter on the firing line that loads like a robot, with their mind somewhere else, getting the task at hand done in the fastest manner, without really paying attention. This is the guy, or gal, that will most likely have this problem. The AD can easily be avoided by simply doing something to break the chain of event that have to occur to create the problem i.e., short strokes, wetter, or possibly different patch lube, anything to break the chain. But, the most important thing is pay attention.
Hungry Horse
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The powder may have been poured but the seating of the ball forced it to make contact with the ember. The ember could have been in the pan, or in a flash channel if it was a patent breech. Otherwise, the shooter wasn't a man but rather a gorilla. ::)
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An ember of what? All that is in there is powder, and either more powder if flint, and cap material. I think my explanation has as much merit as yours, and the fire piston can at least prove the possibility of ignition fron deiseling.
Hungry Horse
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I agree with everything P.W. Berkuta said and described concerning the TRESO G.I. cleaning rods. I have had mine for more than 35 years and it's still like new!
Steve Hefner
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This is the second time that I have heard of this happening. I have not witnessed it in person however but strange things happen.
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HH is making a valid point. I offer my thanks for bringing this to light, and though I rarely use a stiff steel rod for loading muzzleloaders, I do occasionally. And I will keep this thread in mind when I use one or see someone else doing so.
I have only witnessed this phenomenon once: a terribly hot day, after hours of shooting, shooter charged from his measure, and sent the ball onto the powder in one quick pass with his ramrod, having placed a wooden knob over the end first for hand comfort. It was a 28" T/C barrel, and the charge shattered the rod and gas cut his upper hand severely.
Complacency, here, is the devil. So pay attention, and don't dismiss other's philosophy out of hand.
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Does the possibility exist that blackpowder can detonate if struck hard enough? Does a hot barrel enhance this possibility? Considering the small cross section of a ramrod it can deliver a substantial hammer blow to the charge.
I believe this is what happen when an acquaintance was trying to get a screw tip to bite into a ball. The charge went off sending rod and ball out of the rifle - pushing his hand aside luckily. The charge had been in the rifle for more than 20 minutes when this occurred.
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Simple solution to the extremely rare possibility of a range rod causing a detonation: never load all in one quick stroke. I never do, always loading with a metal range rod in short strokes, just like I would with a wooden rod in the field. I'm in charge, not the rod. Non-problem for me.
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This topic has been hashed over many times here and other places but I wonder if it's possible that a nipple or vent could be somewhat plugged causing the rapid ramming of the rod to act as a fire piston does creating more heat as the air from the ball going down cant expel through the nipple//vent fast enough. Here I am wondering again. I too think that shorter strokes would eliminate the problem if no latent spark is present.
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Now that you mention it, I don't recall ever hearing of this phenomenon happening to a flintlock. It could be something related to size and length of the flash channel, and possibly the size of the hole in the nipple.
Hungry Horse
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HH: excellent observation! This is a percussion rifle problem, it seems.
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Mostly to avoid bent metal rods and broken wood ones, I always seat slowly and a few inches at a stroke. But then again I shoot 98% flintlocks.
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Not to "stir-the-pot" but if one was to seat a load in one motion on say a 36" barrel how long of an arm does the shooter have to have ??? ::) :-\?? For me I just don't see it happening - my opinion ::) :).
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Well, if your short starter pushes it down six inches, you only have a thirty inch stroke which is doable for many shooters.
Hungry Horse
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I think that despite whether one thinks it's possible or not; much care should always be taken when dealing with black powder and the arms that shoot it. The last thing a shooter needs is an accidental explosion (BP can't detonate, only a high explosive such as TNT can detonate) to ruin both a range day and the body.
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As if having to worry about our 12L14 barrels bursting on us wasn't enough. Now we have to worry about our steel range rods too. I imagine the consequences of using both together would be like pressing a plunger detonator on a bundle of dynamite. ::)
LOL.......
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With my tight patch, ball and lube combination (at the range), I cannot imagine driving the range rod home with one stroke! Or one hand for that matter. Shoots tight groups out of its flat-bottom Rice barrel though, so I feed it what it likes.
In the woods with my wooden ramrod I wouldn't use this combo. Too tight and slow to reload.
Best wishes and God bless, Marc
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For my .54 rifle, I use a solid brass 3/8" brass ramrod with brass muzzle protector and use short strokes. I swab between shots and I can usually just "press" the ball down a few inches at a time instead of having to hammer it with the rod. I have not had an explosion yet but will be sure to not load in one large movement. As someone else said it seems like it would be hard to do that but I don't even try, I use short strokes to get that little ball gently onto his powder. :)
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I always use my steel range rods in the same manner as I use my wooden ones; with short controlled strokes. I don't understand why someone would believe that anyyone who uses one is only concerned about speeding up the loading process? >:( One reason I like the ball or handle-end range rods is that I can feel the powder compact as I press the ball down on top of the charge. I believe that helps me compress the powder charge more consistently.
I also prefer to keep my roundball's as round as possible, so I never pound on the ball down the barrel by ramming a range rod down on top of them. Even when using wooden ramrods in the field, I will place a piece of deer antler with a ramrod-sized hole drilled in it on the end of the ramrod to get that same "feel" for final seating of the ball on the charge. I prefer to do that over "bouncing the ramrod" when I have the time.
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Galudwig, I made something similar from a piece of deer antler that's almost palm size - I have small hands, too - that I just refer to as a "palm saver". It does indeed allow for a better "feel" for powder compression. I seldom use it in the bush but do use it frequently at the range. Out in the bush I never try for a rapid reload so don't mind a little bit at a time seating.