AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 26, 2017, 09:02:10 PM
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Several years ago, I photographed this rifle and now it has become available to me, so I am frantically getting my finances in order.
The rifle is by Joseph Lang and dates circa 1848. It is in 14 gauge (.69 cal.) and as you can see is in immaculate condition. Enjoy the look-see!
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images up (http://imgbb.com/)
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That is a beauty, Taylor. Lang was a very great maker whose business survived a long time. The engraving suggests to me that the owner had some connection to India. Do you think the thumb plate is screwed in place to be removeable for a peep sight? Also, the end of the ramrod is a knob for the hand and the other end is the ramming end?
dave
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Splendid, thanks for pics. Best of luck with the acquisition.
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Very nice.
Buck
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I agree Dave (SD). The butt plate has a lion; the trigger guard, a tiger; the breech plug a wart hog; and the lock plate a stag of some kind. I have had no opportunity to check for a tang sight support under the wrist escutcheon, but that is a possibility. Those two screws seem overkill to attach a simple escutcheon plate.
I used the new posting feature, and it was indeed easy to use. But am I able to access those images outside of the ALR thread?
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Time to get a paper route!!! and a couple grass cutting jobs...LOL!
Nice find Taylor--Buy your self a "past shooting vest" and fire at will.
I can vision moose falling to that cannon!..Well done!..Happy Dance!!!!!
Note...is that a sear lock safety??? the round bead on lock plate...?
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That is a beauty, Taylor. Lang was a very great maker whose business survived a long time. The engraving suggests to me that the owner had some connection to India. Do you think the thumb plate is screwed in place to be removeable for a peep sight? Also, the end of the ramrod is a knob for the hand and the other end is the ramming end?
dave
Once again,my favorite style of muzzle loader comes to light.I once owned
a Grant&Lang double rifle in 500x3"BPE. I see this lock has a sliding safety
the probably engages the tumbler or maybe the hammer. Can the lock be removed
and pictures posted of the internals?
Bob Roller
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Is that little screw behind the trigger an indication of a single set trigger??
Bob Roller
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Shes a beauty Taylor,I'm glad she's going to fine home
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Nice looking rifle, very nice! Its a shame it has to be one of those newfangled ignition systems that will never catch on ;D
Dennis
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Taylor, that is a lovely rifle, I would swap my best horse for that one !! Wish my old Hollis rifle was in as good condition. They are a very pleasant rifle to use, I am finding the recoil my generates with eh 3 dram charge very pleasant !! Will look forward to a range report when you get it .
Cheers
Gordon
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Really nice, thanks for posting pictures. I think it would look really good at my place in Iowa.
If you get it bought, send it along to me and I will work up a load for you. Please send a mold with it.
If for some reason you are not able to buy it, let me know please.
Fleener
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Thanks for the photos. They seemed to have used well aged wood.... ;D
Love these things. The British really were the best. But then they had customers with money....
Different culture than the "colonies".
Dan
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Oh my goodness! Taylor, if you pull this off, dimensions would be much appreciated. Details of both ends of the ramrod would also be of interest. Absolutely a stunning piece of work - such functionality combined with art! Thanks.
J.B.
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I agree Dave (SD). The butt plate has a lion; the trigger guard, a tiger; the breech plug a wart hog; and the lock plate a stag of some kind. I have had no opportunity to check for a tang sight support under the wrist escutcheon, but that is a possibility. Those two screws seem overkill to attach a simple escutcheon plate.
I used the new posting feature, and it was indeed easy to use. But am it able to access those images outside of the ALR thread?
Taylor if you do a Modify on your post you can copy the URL's and have access to the photos that you uploaded to imbbb.com
Dennis
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I've just discovered a new and wonderful feature of this new posting system. You can click on the image twice to enlarge it to your full screen width. Fabulous detail!!
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Thanks Dennis: I already have these pictures in my own files. But these images are not stored in a site like photobucket, are they?
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Wow, that is a beauty. How many groves are cut in the barrel?
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Looks like ten!
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I was going to say nine or ten. I wonder if those old master gunmakers in England made their own barrels or did some of them source that job out to some one else?
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Hi,
There were barrel makers. For example, the Fullerd family was famous for barrels and used by many of the best makers.
dave
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Taylor,
The date is a bit late but it is possible that the rifle fits a unique category of use popular in England roughly between 1830 and 40. Driven deer shot from a "peg" much like driven pheasants. The little roe deer were driven by beaters to the shooters located at a small opening in a large acreage enclosure. Shooting therefore was at close range at deer running full open. Had a 12 bore Purdey at one time made for this shooting. It was deadly at 30 to 40 yds with a .720 ball and 40 grains of powder. With 'normal' loads in the 70-90 grain range it was very lacking in accuracy.
A superb rifle in condition we all dream about. Congrats.
Jim
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I put money down to secure the sale today!
Jim: the fellow I'm buying it from gave me the dates 1848 - 52, according to the style of signature, and the fact that Lang did not keep serial numbers before 1852. As far as close range shooting goes, the rifle has a standing rear sight and two leaves which indicate 150 and 200 yards...we'll see.
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Good for you! look forward to the range report and more pictures.
Fleener
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....film at 11!
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Taylor, wonderful rifle. I hope you get it. The images are available at ibb.co. When you double-click the picture the address should be in your bar for the location of the image on the Internet
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Thanks Shreckmeister! I sent off cash yesterday to secure the sale!
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that is exquisite and so appealing in every way...especially would be handy for the big creatures we have here and where you are.
maybe you mentioned but what twist is the barrel??
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Gret rifle by a great maker. Wish I could find me one of those!
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I have no idea of the rifle twist. I viewed the rifle for a short time, enough to take those pictures, quite a few years ago. I saw enough, though, that I knew I had to have it, if the opportunity ever presented itself.
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Taylor just drew my attention to this delightful little rifle! THAT rifle is going to be fun! What a score and score that one is. So nice and in the hayday of English dangerous game rifles. As Lt. James Forsyth, M.A. would put it, "buy a cheap single on this pattern". I doubt very much that today this rifle would be described as "cheap".
oh boy, oh boy, oh boy - kinda champing at the bit here. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A guy showed up years ago at a local Rendezvous with a gun very similar to this one in .60 cal. The rifling was the same, as was the ramrod, and the Damascus barrel. I believe his was made in Ireland. There was a big dust up over shooting a Damascus barrel, but after close examination it was determined that it not really Damascus steel at all, just a nicely done imitation finish. It was not as nicely engraved as this one, but was in pretty good shape.
Hungry Horse
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With a light 3-dram load, it will do just fine - low pressure load indeed.
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Taylor,
The date is a bit late but it is possible that the rifle fits a unique category of use popular in England roughly between 1830 and 40. Driven deer shot from a "peg" much like driven pheasants. The little roe deer were driven by beaters to the shooters located at a small opening in a large acreage enclosure. Shooting therefore was at close range at deer running full open. Had a 12 bore Purdey at one time made for this shooting. It was deadly at 30 to 40 yds with a .720 ball and 40 grains of powder. With 'normal' loads in the 70-90 grain range it was very lacking in accuracy.
A superb rifle in condition we all dream about. Congrats.
Jim
I had a friend that could throw a 12 gauge ball by hand and make it lethal.
That rifle is such an outstanding piece of work and it is a real find.
A friend of mine bought a similar one at Friendship two years ago but it
was about a 40 caliber with a multigroove barrel in pristine condition.
I am glad to see this go to someone who has a real appreciation for
such incredible craftsmanship'
Bob Roller
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Daryl has the best of both worlds. He gets to play with it and does not have to buy it.
It is like having a friend with a boat.
Fleener
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Kinda like being married, Fleener? ::)
Exactly - but - I do have a rifle I could trade for it!
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Daryl has the best of both worlds. He gets to play with it and does not have to buy it.
It is like having a friend with a boat.
Fleener
Nor does he have to clean it - although - I would not mind at all, rather enjoy handling it, I would.
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Taylor I will be very interested in what size ball you finish up using, and load as well. When does the rifle get home to you ? I am finding the 3 dram load of Goex Fg ver comfortable to use in my .72 English sporting rifle. As you have read I am using a well undersize ball at the moment and leather patching till I get properly sorted out. As always a darn pity these rifles cannot speak of what they have seen and done. The tiger on your rifle is ver similar to the one on my rifles lock plate. Happy Easter
Cheers
Gordon
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I currently have 16 bore (.662" as-cast), 15 bore (.675" casting .675")) and a .684" mould casting .682". Pretty much got the ball size covered for about any sort of material desired.
I use .030" with the .15 bore balls, soft or hard alloy, in my .69. It does shoot better, though, with the larger .682"(from the mould in pure lead) with the same patch - bit tighter, though.
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Gordon: the rifle is in a city some eight hours distant. I will not take the chance of mailing it or any other courier. I will make the drive and pick it up personally, but that cannot occur until middle of May...yeah, I know.
I did a little webb research on Joseph Lang: he seems to be mostly known for his shotguns, and his company had a long history with some very prestigious buyers, including the Prince of Wales. If anyone else has reference material on him, I'd love to read it.
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Mid May - hmmm - sounds like a road trip to me - maybe do some shooting, do some fishing? :)
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I would be hesitant to have it shipped as well. I had Jim Westberg work on my Rigby a couple of times, and each time I drove the 3 hours each way to take it and pick it up.
Last year I bought a pelican case for it and cut out the foam to fit the rifle. Pelican cases are almost bullet proof.
I have been trying to figure out what to do with my Rigby when I take it to AU this fall for the World match. We are going to be seeing the sights for a couple of week prior to the match, and I cant haul the rifle around AU and NZ.
I checked with shipping fedex, it was $800 one way. Spoke to a gun importer/exporter and he said $1500 plus 3 months of paper work.
I am certainly not wanting to ship it.
I like Daryl's idea, do a little fishing and a little shooting.
fleener
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At our age anticipation is a rare thing, will look forward to hearing about your trip and a happy snap with the new rifle !!
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A guy showed up years ago at a local Rendezvous with a gun very similar to this one in .60 cal. The rifling was the same, as was the ramrod, and the Damascus barrel. I believe his was made in Ireland. There was a big dust up over shooting a Damascus barrel, but after close examination it was determined that it not really Damascus steel at all, just a nicely done imitation finish. It was not as nicely engraved as this one, but was in pretty good shape.
Hungry Horse
Quality Damascus is not an issue. Its the cheap poorly made Damascus that came to the US in the late 19th c that caused the problem. Shotguns selling for 2-4 dollars apiece could not be expected to have barrels of any quality.
Damascus shotgun barrels are still made in England IIRC. Proved for Nitro.
But people need to know what to look for in a Damascus shotgun or rifle barrel, dents in shotgun barrels can break we weld in the other barrel as well. Rifle barrels look for pitting that might be deeper than one thinks. I would not shoot damascus with any proof other than English. Parker used first quality English machine made Damascus in the late 19th, early 20th c. But most used lower grade steels..... The best English machine made Damascus was fully equal to "Whitworth steel" in the mid-late 1890s. Read this in "The Gun and Its Development" W.W. Greener. Mine is from 1896....
Dan
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Purdey was still making Damascus barreled SXS shotguns in 1927 nitro proofed, of course.
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Well, I just got home from Taylor's place - it is a 16 bore - .660" land to land- even number of lands and grooves - 10, with a 48" twist.
At least it isn't 36" like some. It will shoot 3 drams quite nicely, I'm sure. It will likely do well to about 4 drams max - about 110 - maybe 120gr. which will be fine with a 17 (.650") or 17-ish bore ball. If a true 17 bore mould is ordered, it will cast about .648".
Got the story on it as well - well most recent story, that is.
This rifle has been in 2 gun shows here in BC or Alberta- maybe Calgary. A friend of ours who used to built rifles & go general Gun Smithing here in PG & who had Taylor working for him building Hawken-type Rifles back in the 80's, saw it at a show and 1st time - it had not a single mark on it. The dealer who had it wanted too much money for it.
Couple years pass and it was at another gun show where it now had handling marks, slightly damaged nipple from dry firing, along with marks and dents around the barrel wedge from prying with a screw driver, etc. Don couldn't stand to see it damaged this way - and bought it on the spot, and showed it to Taylor. My bro bought it just recently, but would not have it shipped or mailed, simply drove the 8 hours to get it & visit some relatives down that way.
The Joseph Lang weighs 8.14 pounds (4.61 Kilos), barrel is 1.790" at the breech, 1.120" at the muzzle and a mere 1" in the waist.
The rifling is clean and sharp (appearing unfired, actually) to the breech - with a slight choke at the muzzle.
There is some roughness from people shoving their @!*% fingers into the bore - WHY do people seem to HAVE to do that - automatic - blooody $#*!?
Sorry for the rant.
At least it's only just a bit rough, not pitted YET and with some shooting it will smooth out due to the patches and cleaning.
A mould will be subsequently ordered from Jeff Tanner of the UK.
The engraving is quite nice, tiny scrolls & pictures. The checkering is perfect and borders are perfectly parallel, no overruns or booboos - REALLY nice to see and hold. Points like a dream and sights come up instantly aligned on what you are looking at as the rifle is raised to the face and shoulder.
Sight leaves, 100(point blank), 150 and 200, same as mine now on the 14 bore.
Current condition and finish is as-original - not refurbished or re-finished in any way.
The ram-rod and entry pipes are huge - over 1/2" & appears to be perfectly straight rose-wood - maybe stained green-heart (I've heard was used) - don't know for sure.
I would not be surprised the gun is unfired from Lang's facility.
It is VERY nice indeed. Too bad an idiot PERSON had it before Don rescued it.
It has No. 769 engraved behind the guard on it's finial. Don figured 1853 for a date of mfg.
Oh yeah - single set trigger and the lock clicks like a 1st rate rifle's lock should. The 1/2 bent safety is really special as well.
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Daryl
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There is some roughness from people shoving their @!*% fingers into the bore - WHY do people seem to HAVE to do that - automatic - blooody $#*!?
Put a bit of graphited grease in the muzzle for those who can't resist a probe.
Messy,hard to get off the fingers and won't harm the rifle.
Bob Roller
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ver please you got it home at last. Looking forward to hearing the range report. I just picked up a nice flask of flea bay locally down under with an adjustable nozzle 3 to 4 1/2 drams in 1/2 dram increments. Guess your rifle would have been cased with all the gear, pity that has disapeared.
Cheers
Gordon
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Malachite Green would be even better - good idea, Bob- tks. LOL
By the time they got 30', their face would have it all over along with both hands and their clothes too. The harder you try to swash it off, the more spread around it becomes.
Unfortunately, so would anyone handling what they did.
Maybe moly grease is a better idea.
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I took some pictures of the details of the rifle and am sharing them now, for those who enjoy English Sporting Rifles and/or intend to build one. The following are some measurements:
LOP: 14"
Drop at heel: 1 13/16"
Drop at comb: 1 5/16"
Barrel length: 30" including breech plug
Weight: 8.14 pounds
Barrel swamped: @breech - 1.183", 5 1/4" from muzzle - 1", @ muzzle - 1.035"
Trigger pull weight: unset - 3# 3.7 oz., set - 6 oz.
Bore: .66"
Groove depth .685" (10 grooves ~ 2 x land width)
Rate of Twist: 1:48"
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I discovered you can click on the image twice and enlarge it each time.
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Daryl checking it out!
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Really nice rifle. Thanks for sharing pictures of it. Wish you lived closer we would try it out on a big boar hog. Tim
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What a pretty rifle,bore is spotless,for sure wasn't shot much if at all.
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Everything on that rifle is stunning, down to the screw on the trigger guard! Thank you for posting such great pictures.
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Such wonderful craftsmanship.I have made a number of locks for Schuetzen rifles for
Helmut Mohr in Germany. He calls that style of bridle "Der Kreuzstudel" I call it a
nice,rigid 3 screw bridle. I think the Steve Garbe new Schuetzen rifle has a similar
mechanism.
MANY thanks for showing this marvelous survivor of a day long gone.
Bob Roller
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Congratulations on that wonderful shoulder canon, Taylor!
Let's see some pictures of you guys shooting it!
John
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Magnificent!!!! Every thing about it. Taylor, do you know what load combination was used to coincide with the sight markings? Lines, art and craftsmanship,, its got it all.
Robby
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When the mould gets here, Robby - we will find out when it needs to regulate, using GOEX as well as Swiss 1 1/2 - I have some of that I am setting aside for testing in the Lang rifle.
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Congratulations on that wonderful shoulder canon, Taylor!
Let's see some pictures of you guys shooting it!
John
I had a W.W.Greener 16 bore double rifle that when loaded with 90 grains of old DuPont
3fg and patched round balls was not violent and would make snake eyes in the target at 50 yards.
This was a cased outfit with rifle barrels,12 gauge and 10 gauge shotgun barrels,flask and mould
for a Greener patent two piece bullet.Everything had the same numbers as the gun.Also there was
a book titled "Gunnery in 1858" written by Greener. I traded a Holland&Holland double rifle for it
in .303 British,a neat little deer stalker with a ton of engraving.The man that had the Greener told
me he didn't want to be walloped by that 16 bore rifle due to fragile health. I sold the Greener
and my Henry barreled Whitworth in 1973 just before our second son was born and the money was
a big help to say the least.The Greener was in the same condition as Taylor's Lang and the H&H
was only slightly less over all.
Bob Roller
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Good story, Bob- thanks. Last time out at the range with my 14 bore, I found that 2F GOEX gave me higher speeds per charge, than-did 3F GOEX. GOEX 3F did give higher pressures, but not speed. What triggered this 'test', was back in 86, my rifle shot to the sights (as filed) close range, 25 and 50 yards with 82gr. 3f GOEX, but with more than 90gr., the patches I (.030" had bad burn and scorch marks,. some holes) was using did not hold up to more 3F, but I could far exceed those loads using 2f GOEX- all the way to 200gr. without any damage to the patches. Slower start, perhaps.
Couple years ago, I ran out of 3F for my trail-walk squib load of 82gr., which developed 1,225fps and shot to the sights. I tried 90gr. 2F and found I was hitting high. I reduced the charge to my old standard of 3 drams, or 82gr. and found identical shot placement as 82gr. 3F GOEX. Only a few months ago(last fall), did I get around to actually chronographing this and found identical speeds at the low charges, between the older 3F and newer 2F. I also found that the newer GOEX, in a charge of 140gr. was only 50fps slower than my old hunting charge of 165gr. 2F., but the lighter charge shot to the sights, as "filed-in" way back in the 80's.
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Daryl, just wondering if you have had a chance to try this rifle out yet?
Cheers
Gordon
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Daryl, just wondering if you have had a chance to try this rifle out yet?
Cheers
Gordon
There's a thread in the black powder shooting forum regarding Taylors rifle.