AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on April 02, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
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Of what dimensions were original 18th and 19th century shooting bags? I have a small modern made bag here that is 7" wide and 6" tall, about 2" deep. I am wondering if that is too small? Were some shooting bags small like this?
(https://s7.postimg.org/jpk8ngh57/20170401_173112-1.jpg)
Just looking for some input on the sizes of original shooting bags. Thanks!
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My experience is that "most" were deeper than wide or equal depth and width. 7 inches is a good average. Grant's book "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch is an old but still very good source for information. He included size on most.
It is also my observation that beginning shooters and some not so beginners, tend to carry an overnight bag as a pouch. If you know your gun and are experienced, you really don't need all that much. Having other things available might be handy when things go awry but the better you get, the less you need. Also, remember that these were hunters mostly. Only a few shots were fired on any given day.
Steve
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By "deeper" what do you mean? Thickness of the whole bag or just how deep the inside goes down?
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I think Steve is dead on in his response. Most modern shooters new, and old, have a shooting bag that is more like luggage for the time period, than it is a shooting bag. Between a dazzling array of modern contraptions, they have bottles, and tins, of every imaginable shape, and size, filled with magic shoot straight concoctions. The few original shooting bags I have seen are very minimal in size, capacity, and compartments.
I blame the Rendezvous for this. Most of us shoot more in an afternoon at Rendezvous than the old timers shot in a month. So, one has to be prepared for all kind of malfunctions, and breakdowns, which pretty much fills up your Sampsonite shooting bag.
Hungry Horse
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I'd also hazard the guess that most of the old bags were quite a bit smaller than a lot of the modern-made "replicas", for one simple reason: most folks, given space, fill it up, and bags get heavy, fast. (Just ask your significant other: most, errr... mature... ladies find themselves tending toward smaller and smaller purses, over time).
By no means all, but some of those oldtimers carried those bags as an everyday accessory: it'd be a little tough to get a day's work done with some of today's "shoulder luggage" bags ahangin in the way.
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I'm referring to the outline dimensions of the bag. Like a straight on drawing of the bag. Think wide, side to side, and deep, up and down. While there were/are gusseted bags, (pieces sewn around the edges of the front and back as you have) many were very simple affairs. Some three pieces sewn around the edges, some simply one piece of leather folded twice and the edges sewn up the sides. Some sewn and then turned inside out, some not. Think "TOOL" not decoration. Not true in all cases but very often. We tend to want fancy to impress. They just needed a tool.
Steve
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Okay guys below are photos of my new hunting bag that I had made up for my 19th century percussion .36 caliber squirrel rifle that Jackie Brown is making me. I took pictures with a ruler in them for scale:
(https://s27.postimg.org/eryfdqbpf/20170402_141728.jpg)
(https://s24.postimg.org/o2ehcofn9/20170402_141812-1.jpg)
(https://s11.postimg.org/722nzosbn/20170402_142051.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/4ypwf3vgf/20170402_141934.jpg)
Can anyone out there tell me if this sized bag is "authentic"? Is it too small? About right? Also, does the style appear appropriate for a 19th century percussion squirrel rifle? Thanks!
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Looks good to me. If you are happy with it, it's just right. Use it hard for a few years and it will look even better.
Steve
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Looks good to me. If you are happy with it, it's just right. Use it hard for a few years and it will look even better.
Steve
So it is HC in both dimensions and design? Thank you for the help!
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A body don't need much, to shoot squirrels. Looks just right to me, for what that's worth.
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Size is fine, shape seems Ok but I'm not an expert on 19th century pouches. Can't say I care for that closure method, though.
You may not want to hear this, but the cloth lining is dubious at best, and the leather looks to be chrome-tanned, which isn't PC for anything prior to 1870 or so.
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Size is fine, shape seems Ok but I'm not an expert on 19th century pouches. Can't say I care for that closure method, though.
You may not want to hear this, but the cloth lining is dubious at best, and the leather looks to be chrome-tanned, which isn't PC for anything prior to 1870 or so.
:(
That... is unfortunate. I just did some research and it appears chrome tanned leather is weak. Apparently the maker of my bag used some cheap materials. It sure cost enough, though. >:(
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Elnathan - Just wondering..... what makes you think that it's chrome tanned leather?
Chris
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I have been making shooting pouches for the past three years, but have been doing sketches of pouches for several years, along with measurements when possible. The bulk of the bags I have measured have been between 6" - 7" wide and 8" - 9" long. I have found very few with gussets, and those have all been of higher quality. They were probably made by a harness maker or some other professional leather craftsman and many of those were much bigger than usual. I mainly use goat, sheep, and calfskin to make my bags and rub then down several times with bear grease for a final finish. Many of the originals were very small. There are some in the museum at Blue Licks State Park near Paris, Kentucky that are tiny. Hope this helps a little.
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So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.
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Remember that very few original bags survive. Most info is largely speculation. Pictures(paintings), descriptions in books, logs, and letters. Do some research and make your own decisions based on research. Pick the brains of people you admire and trust. In the meantime I wouldn't be embarrassed to carry the bag you have. You are not going to be perfect ever. Do the best you can with what you have.
Steve
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Plainsman, for an authentic style bag maybe ask Eric Fleisher - http://www.efleishershotpouches.com - he made real good ones also a nice guy !
Monty
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Plainsman, for an authentic style bag maybe ask Eric Fleisher - http://www.efleishershotpouches.com - he made real good ones also a nice guy !
Monty
Besides the excellent quality, his work consists almost exclusively of exacting bench copies of originals, or closely follows or is inspired by original bags. And he has several of them for sale right now for awesome prices.
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So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.
Time and place and station in society will have to be answered before you can settle on a bag.
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So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.
http://ewingscreekpouches.blogspot.com/
Tim C.
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I believe your question was about the dimensions of the old bags, not the size and contents of modern ones...
Bag maker Eric Fleisher has been mentioned earlier in the thread and he fabricated my shooting bag. Eric is an excellent bag maker! If you go to his website you'll see examples of his work, most with dimensions. His work is primarily based on old time bags. The bag he made for me was a direct copy of a late 1700's bag found in Beavertown, PA. Here we see the original alongside one of Eric's reproductions...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6YALodLl.jpg&hash=4021580aed172e46038950cbb88d920131f2d322)
Its outside dimensions are...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fg0YSwCpl.jpg&hash=160e12976772e5c36b2d938bbdb1801e513b0864)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgcRudhSl.jpg&hash=9f385e93ed45f087bc97ca70b78e960d95ec5753)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhQGbi7Fl.jpg&hash=3106930a1939d2134429461a0a2ad6d19bd42b57)
9 1/2" wide X 7 3/4" long, when flat it is approx 1/4 inch thick. It holds all I need for a walk in the woods.
dave
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Wow! That is really cool, and a sharp bag indeed! I'm not so pleased with the one I had made for me. Should have done more research. Think I'll be selling it and use the money towards a proper bag, one made with good vegetable tanned leather and with historical correctness in mind.
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Elnathan - Just wondering..... what makes you think that it's chrome tanned leather?
Chris
It looks like chrome-tanned? Kinda hard to describe. :P
Pretty much all modern leather, unless stated otherwise, is chrome-tanned. Go into a crafts or hobby store and look at anything marked "leather" without a qualifier (as opposed to something like "tooling leather") is going to be chrome-tanned, as far as I know. It tends to be pretty soft, very fuzzy on the flesh side, and because chrome-tanned leather is naturally a kind of pale green, I believe, it is dyed to make it better looking. Smokey Plainsman's bag has a big color difference between grain side and flesh side, which is a clue (not all chrome-tanned leather has that much a difference, though).
I'm very far from being an expert on leather of any kind, but I do have a sample apiece of three different period types of leather, an alum-tawed, hair-on calfskin, some brain-tanned buckskin, and a piece of bark-tanned deerskin. the only one which come anywhere close to the leather under discussion is the bark-tan. Since it is full grain, with the epidermis left on, it does show a difference in texture between outside and flesh side (though not as pronounced as chrome-tanned), but being undyed the color is very consistent between sides. Of course, barktanned can be dyed too...
One thing to do is to look at the edge where the leather has been cut - if there is a a white or pinkish layer right in the middle than it is almost certainly chrome-tanned. Don't think that all chrome-tanned shows this, but if it is 1/16" thick or so most will, I think. Some of the thinner leathers are dyed right through, I imagine.
Once you know what to look for it is pretty obvious.
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Yes... I'm sad to say that my bag does feel pretty thin, especially the little "buckle" thing. It feels like it could tear at any moment. I was hoping for a tough historically authentic bag, as I tried to make it clear to the maker, but I'm not really happy with what I was sent.
I wonder if Eric Fleisher used vegetable tanned historical leathers? I really like what I've seen from him.
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T.C. Albert suggests using 3-4 ounce (veggie-tanned) leather in his book on pouches. That is 3/64-1/16" thick. Leather doesn't have to be all that thick to be tough enough for your purpose. My pouch, made of that aforementioned bark-tanned deerskin, is about 8 ounces on average and is probably overkill (though I do like that thick, stiff strap, coming to think of it...)
A couple things I suggest you do before you order another pouch. First, get ahold of a couple books: Madison Grant, The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch; T.C. Albert, Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch; and the Book of Buckskinning, Vol. VI, which contains an article on hunting pouches. The Book of Buckskinning and Madison Grant's book are probably available via Interlibrary Loan (I know they were at one point, 'cause that is how I got them...), you will probably have to buy T.C. Albert's book. Those will give you an idea of what the historically correct choices are - for the mid 19th century you have a quite a variety to choose from.
Once you have an idea of what you are looking at, you can think about whether you want to recreate a "poorboy" set of accoutrements to go with your rifle, or a high-end set, or something in between. IIRC you aren't a reenactor. You don't have to have a persona (I don't) but it wouldn't be a bad idea to figure out what kind of person would have used the kind of rifle you are going to be using and to use that as a basis for picking out what kind of bag would go best with it.
At that point you should have an idea of what you are shooting for, which allows you to know what kind of questions to ask. Ask here, and ask the person who will be making your pouch.
In the meantime, you can be using the pouch you already have...actual use may give you a better idea of what you want functionally out of your next one.
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T.C. Albert suggests using 3-4 ounce (veggie-tanned) leather in his book on pouches. That is 3/64-1/16" thick. Leather doesn't have to be all that thick to be tough enough for your purpose. My pouch, made of that aforementioned bark-tanned deerskin, is about 8 ounces on average and is probably overkill (though I do like that thick, stiff strap, coming to think of it...)
A couple things I suggest you do before you order another pouch. First, get ahold of a couple books: Madison Grant, The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch; T.C. Albert, Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch; and the Book of Buckskinning, Vol. VI, which contains an article on hunting pouches. The Book of Buckskinning and Madison Grant's book are probably available via Interlibrary Loan (I know they were at one point, 'cause that is how I got them...), you will probably have to buy T.C. Albert's book. Those will give you an idea of what the historically correct choices are - for the mid 19th century you have a quite a variety to choose from.
Once you have an idea of what you are looking at, you can think about whether you want to recreate a "poorboy" set of accoutrements to go with your rifle, or a high-end set, or something in between. IIRC you aren't a reenactor. You don't have to have a persona (I don't) but it wouldn't be a bad idea to figure out what kind of person would have used the kind of rifle you are going to be using and to use that as a basis for picking out what kind of bag would go best with it.
At that point you should have an idea of what you are shooting for, which allows you to know what kind of questions to ask. Ask here, and ask the person who will be making your pouch.
In the meantime, you can be using the pouch you already have...actual use may give you a better idea of what you want functionally out of your next one.
Thank you so much!! I will search for those books. I do have one other hunting pouch and I really like it, made by October Country, their "free trappers" bag if I recall. But I am wanting a more authentic and one of a kind bag for my caplock squirrel rifle I am having made for me.
I would have to say the setup I'm looking to recreate would be for an 1840s-1850s Mississippi river area hunter of modest income. I will for sure be doing more research before "jumping in" to my next bag purchase. I want the next one to be high quality and also very HC/PC.
Those books that you recommend, they also talk about the items that go into the hunting bag? I am also interested in getting those as HC/PC as I can for that time period to go along with my rifle.
Thank again for the help, I greatly appreciate the patience and knowledge that you guys have for a "newbie" to the world of traditional American rifle shooting and hunting!!
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Okay, I just bought The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch by Madison Grant. They had it on Track of the Wolf and I had another order I went ahead and placed with them as well. Can't wait to read it!!
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Take Grant's descriptions and dates with a grain of salt. He has a lot of pictures, but he tends to be a bit spare with real info in his descriptions, and he was writing many decades ago when folks did not know as much about the development of the American longrifle as we do now. On the other hand, one of the biggest problems in this area is dating artifacts earlier than they really are, usually 19th century objects being taken as 18th century. Grant is actually pretty conservative in that regard - only three of the hundred-plus pouches are claimed as possible 18th century pouches, and you are looking for later pouches anyway. Also, unlike, say, knives, I don't think that there has been any real significant changes in our understanding of pouches since he wrote his books.
All this to say: If you find a pouch you like, cross-reference it with similar pouches from the other two books and see what they have to say too.
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There is a new 2 disc DVD from American Pioneer Video featuring Ken Scott making a hunting pouch and the antiquing and aging it. I received my copy from Jim Wright on Friday and am halfway through watching it for the second time. I highly recommend this DVD. Some parts seem to move a bit slow and others I had to watch a couple of times to understand what Ken was describing/showing. I have made a dozen or so hunting pouches and I managed to learn a lot from this DVD that will help me with future pouches. You can call Jim or Karen at 1-270-782-7506 and order your own copy.
David
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I would have to say the setup I'm looking to recreate would be for an 1840s-1850s Mississippi river area hunter of modest income. I will for sure be doing more research before "jumping in" to my next bag purchase. I want the next one to be high quality and also very HC/PC.
Think plain and small. Large enough to hold some balls and caps. A day horn of some sort would be more appropriate than a big one. The Mississippi River covers a whole lot of area. From the Gulf to almost in Canada.
Something like this would be completely correct. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43674.0
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I would have to say the setup I'm looking to recreate would be for an 1840s-1850s Mississippi river area hunter of modest income. I will for sure be doing more research before "jumping in" to my next bag purchase. I want the next one to be high quality and also very HC/PC.
Think plain and small. Large enough to hold some balls and caps. A day horn of some sort would be more appropriate than a big one. The Mississippi River covers a whole lot of area. From the Gulf to almost in Canada.
True! I would say I'd be interested in what they would have used from the region around St. Louis along the river. That's where I grew up and where I'll do some squirrel hunting hopefully in the near future with my rifle and trappings. :D
Also I forgot to mention that I am having a man in Nebraska make me a small simple day horn for my rifle. The one I use for my big plains rifle is pretty large so I wanted a smaller one for hunting and plinking. I conversed with him about making it historically correct for the time period I'm looking for.
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Hungry Horse; I blame the Rendezvous for this. Most of us shoot more in an afternoon at Rendezvous than the old timers shot in a month. So, one has to be prepared for all kind of malfunctions, and breakdowns, which pretty much fills up your Sampsonite shooting bag.
Yup. That about says it. I could not get minimal enough on trek or a trail walk, and ended up buying a canvas pouch from Track so I could stow everything from ear plugs to staplers and glasses in it. It is one item that is permanently ensconced in the trunk of my Accent.
Also, if you're gonna blame rendezvous guys for the kitchen sink, then you also have to be careful with rulers. After all, didn't the ..."Thirteen-stitches-to-the-inch"... guys generate a lot of heartache by thinking they were documented exclusively?
I'd get off a message to SligoBill for a good opinion and think more about a bag that is suited to the way you shoot rather than it's dimensions.
Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
The Capgun Kid
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Another option for a HC pouch is to kill a groundhog , case skin him , bark tan him, get a simple pouch made from this .Some are just sewn across the bottom after cut to lenghth and , straps added . It will be HC , it will be the right size . Keep it simple . It is also very tough and, will go well with a southern squirrel rifle !! Just a thought.
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here is a link to a few restored bags on you-tube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDckFt3IGqM
They range in size, shape and quality...might give you a few ideas...
for those that have seen it, I apologize for posting it here again...
tc
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here is a link to a few restored bags on you-tube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDckFt3IGqM
They range in size, shape and quality...might give you a few ideas...
for those that have seen it, I apologize for posting it here again...
tc
Beautiful! Thank you for that video, I really like those pouches and horns!
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A bag needs to fit the shooter. I have large hands, can't find gloves large enough to fit. I make them so I can get my hand in easily.
Frank Costanza had a collection of nearly 100 original bags. Most were pretty small. Makes sense, since most of the old guys were of smaller stature than people of today.
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A bag needs to fit the shooter. I have large hands, can't find gloves large enough to fit. I make them so I can get my hand in easily.
Frank Costanza had a collection of nearly 100 original bags. Most were pretty small. Makes sense, since most of the old guys were of smaller stature than people of today.
I'm 5' 7" so about average height for back then.