AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Treebeard on April 13, 2017, 04:12:31 AM
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I have read a number of comments on this forum about scraping a stock instead of sanding it prior to application of finish. What tool is used to do this? Piece of broken glass or sharpened metal or?
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Use metal. Glass will go dull on you plus it is very irregular. I have made several different scrapers from larger cabinet scraper steel. I have a couple of flats, concave and convex of different radii.
David
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I have a set of store-bought cabinet scrapers, available from any woodworking tool supply co., and I use old saw blades to make custom shapes.
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Thanks for the responses -- I will look up cabinet scrapers. I have done a lot of sanding on wood but this sounds interesting.
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I have commercial scrapers, saw blade pieces and the most used one is from a pack of blades for a paint scraper 1/2" x 2 1/4" by .003 thick. It is small but really useful.
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I use a razor blade.....seems I'm a minimalist when it comes to tools.... :o
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Like Mike I use razor blades the ones I use are the one`s that go in a utility knife. I can shape one quickly on my belt sander to whatever shape I need.
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Dennis Preddy a well known Michigan gun builder makes a set with a handle with interchangeable blades in different shapes. If interested p.m. an will give you his #. You can also make them from hack saw blades. Oldtravler
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Old fashioned scrapers were first squared ( that is, making sure the edges are 90 degrees) and then a slight bur is rolled on the edge, to give it a bit of a hook. They work very well, and seem to be less likely to create low spots. They are a little tricky if you mount your furniture, and then decide you still need to remove more wood. The pin holes that hold the pins, that retain the furniture, can cause the scraper to leave a slight groove, if particular care isn't taken, which will show on the finished gun.
Hungry Horse
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The pin holes that hold the pins, that retain the furniture, can cause the scraper to leave a slight groove, if particular care isn't taken, which will show on the finished gun.
Hungry Horse
Here I thought I was the only one that suffered thru "pin grooves" with scrapers.
Kevin
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I use a blunted (sharpened on a stone at a 90 degree angle) utility knife blade, a set of Jerry Fisher stock scrapers, and a custom scraper. The custom scraper was filed from a Sandvik scraper blank with various curves (like a french curve) useful in scraping a stock. I would suggest you buy some scraper stock and file what you need. I use scrapers for final shaping as well as finishing. Scrapers shape in a way that is very hard to do with sandpaper. I am really not sure how you build a gun without them although I know people do.
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I read about a lot of guys using razor blades, utility knife blades and all sorts of sharp-edged objectslike glass to scrape with. these "tools" are not scrapers and although they do peel off a curl of wood, they also, compress the fibers under the blades,...exactly what a scraper is not supposed to do. this is because they do not have a properly shaped cutting edge. the edge a real scraper is filed 90 degrees and then a fine lip is formed on that edge by burning the corner of the scraper. it is this lip that is what a scraper is all about,.... it is this lip that does the work a scraper is supposed to do. razor blades, utility knife blades and glass do not have any such lip. the surface left by a proper scraper, is clean and uncompressed because that lip cuts in front of the pressure put on the scraper when used. a proper scraper leaves the surface with the pores wide open to accept sealer and finish. any compression of the surface fibers closes the pores and prevents sealer and finish from entering deeply into the stock not allowing the finish to gather light to show off the figure. this dulls the clarity of the beutiful grain we pay so much to get. there are several good sources of information about making a proper scraper around, mostly in books and articles that have to do with good high power gun stocks. glass razor blades and utility knife blades are shortcuts that actually diminish the beuty of the woods figure we pay for.
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Quick, Mike, quick! Lock the door! The scraper police are headed for your house right now! :)
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razor blades and utility knife blades are shortcuts that actually diminish the beauty of the woods figure we pay for
I've got to respectfully disagree...This recently completed stock was scraped with utility knife blades(a method I learned from Gary Brumfield and Al Martin).Don't believe the blades diminished this stock a whole lot .... ;)
Mitch
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi112.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn166%2Fjmyates%2FArts%2520Rifle%2FDSC_0091_zpsixqk2fzs.jpg&hash=dff96d353bf916757823458922e2034113ece527)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi112.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn166%2Fjmyates%2FArts%2520Rifle%2FDSC_0088_zpstqjlm9k6.jpg&hash=a0754cb81486ffbfb1e75b1e47c9bd3bec2f4522)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi112.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn166%2Fjmyates%2FArts%2520Rifle%2FDSC_0157_zpso8dgb0tm.jpg&hash=f6909ab977c2b59d98b0fccca2445b6ea42f65be)
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Mitch, VERY NICE!!! That is one nice rifle. Thanks for posting. I`m glad you "diminished" that wood to a point I could handle it ! If it looked any better you would have to charge admission. Great Job!!!
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Mitch,
I too am of the Allen Martin school.
I use commercial scrapers, ( two different thicknesses) to final shape, then carpet knife blades, with tape on one edge, and a slight hook turned on a fine stone for finishing.
Nothing, repeat, nothing allows stains to their job like a scraped surface!!!
Just look at Mitch's rifle.
I've got a couple of different blades with different contours for those, not so flat surfaces.
PLUS...... I'd much rather scrape than sand!
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razor blades and utility knife blades are shortcuts that actually diminish the beauty of the woods figure we pay for
I've got to respectfully disagree...This recently completed stock was scraped with utility knife blades(a method I learned from Gary Brumfield and Al Martin).Don't believe the blades diminished this stock a whole lot .... ;)
Mitch
Just think how nice that rifle would of turned out had you not used a utility knife blade. ;D
I have some scrapers with and some without hooks. The utility knife, carpet knife and scrapers without hooks are great for final finishing as they are not as aggressive as a scraper with a hook. You just need a sharp 90 degree edge.
David
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Mitch, posting that rifle in a debate was just unfair. That's like bringing a bazooka to an arm-wrestling match. ;-) Seriously, that is some beautiful work. I'll bet it feels nice too. Best wishes, Marc
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I bought a new pack of razor blades last night, was so giddy and excited to scrape with them, feel that new scraper feel, then realized it was 2 am lol. Can't say I've been that happy about $1.50 in a while... The fresh ones, in my little experience, make thin wispy curls that probably do compress fibers, hence the "sheen" they seem to leave behind. I've been making my own "bur" on them with a few licks from an Arkansas stone. I've been using scalpel blades as well, their curvature seems to fit some nooks and crannies as well as the pointy end. I give them a few licks on the side opposing the direction I'm scraping depending on how or where I'm scraping. Making this small bur does make them cut/scrape easier, as well as "open" the grain as opposed to compressing fibres. Just general observations from some hippy....
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Glass microscope slides work well also. Just watch closely and know when an edge is chipped.
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Scrapers with hooks?????????
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Hook = burr.
https://youtu.be/dOmAWhgdEJA
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hhhhmmm, what do ya' know !.
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Hear is a link to the MOAS (mother of all scrapers) http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Scrapers/StewMac_Ultimate_Scraper.html
David
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I read about a lot of guys using razor blades, utility knife blades and all sorts of sharp-edged objectslike glass to scrape with. these "tools" are not scrapers and although they do peel off a curl of wood, they also, compress the fibers under the blades,...exactly what a scraper is not supposed to do. this is because they do not have a properly shaped cutting edge. the edge a real scraper is filed 90 degrees and then a fine lip is formed on that edge by burning the corner of the scraper. it is this lip that is what a scraper is all about,.... it is this lip that does the work a scraper is supposed to do. razor blades, utility knife blades and glass do not have any such lip. the surface left by a proper scraper, is clean and uncompressed because that lip cuts in front of the pressure put on the scraper when used. a proper scraper leaves the surface with the pores wide open to accept sealer and finish. any compression of the surface fibers closes the pores and prevents sealer and finish from entering deeply into the stock not allowing the finish to gather light to show off the figure. this dulls the clarity of the beutiful grain we pay so much to get. there are several good sources of information about making a proper scraper around, mostly in books and articles that have to do with good high power gun stocks. glass razor blades and utility knife blades are shortcuts that actually diminish the beuty of the woods figure we pay for.
Hi Ron,
I have used carpet scraper blades, knives, and properly sharpened and burnished cabinet scrapers. Often I switch between all of those tools on a single rifle depending on the area of the stock I am working. As long as my tools are sharp, I never see any differences or diminishing of the grain or figure. They all shear wood cleanly away. I prefer to use the cabinet scrapers when I can because it is easier for me to hold the larger rectangle or French curve and apply pressure for longer working periods compared with a small razor or carpet scraper blade. However, there are times when those smaller blades are useful, especially around details. The rifle pictured below was scraped using all of the tools mentioned. The patchbox side was scraped mostly with a properly sharpened and burnished rectangular cabinet scraper. The patch box lid was scraped with a scary sharp carpet scraper blade and a carving knife. The cheek piece side of the stock was mostly scraped using a carpet scraper blade and carving knives around the details. A large French curve was used on the concave surface of the cheek piece itself. I really can't see any loss of figure in the wood.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FStar%2520of%2520Bethlehem%25203_zps0lok4rq9.jpg&hash=412fd0a57aead1359a15339b82c69ca587dd090d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FStar%2520of%2520Bethlehem%25206_zpszx9pob7y.jpg&hash=1cf63a6277d7618fa6feb2705589a02b17dfe917)
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Those are some gorgeous stocks shown. When you guys say that these stocks were scraped, does that mean they were ONLY scraped? Only scraped as in no sandpaper or abrasive used at all? I've planed and scraped furniture and flat woodwork, but havn't been able to ONLY scape a gunstock. I've only used red maple and walnut. There is always some little spot where the grain just won't cut cleanly and I have to sand. I wish I didn't because I hate sanding and trying to chase away the inevitable scratches. I apreciate the honest work and gentle undulating appearance of a planed or scraped surface as opposed to a glass flat one.
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the point i'm trying to make is that a scraper that is properly made has a cutting edge that is 90 degrees (or there about) to the body of the scraper. when the scraper is held at an angle to the work piece, that cutting edge is positioned to act similar to a plane's blade and cleanly cuts the fibers, not tearing them off. a razor blade or UT knife blade or piece of glass, can only tear fibers off by pinching the fibers under the sharp edge and pulling them off the surface, essentially tearing the fibers. this leaves a considerably less smooth and a some-what crushed surface the same as sandpaper would produce, disallowing the finish to penetrate as deeply as a truly clean cut off surface would allow. this is done by cutting the fibers not crushing and tearing them. the whole idea is to get away from the kind of surface sandpaper leaves so that the finish can do the job it is supposed to do.
i.ve recently received some aggressive e-mails from someone who evidently didn't like something I posted,..... I do not know who I ticked off or why they got ticked off because some true and accurate information was posted on their thread, ..but I find it really childish coming from a site that is made up of mostly skilled adults and tradesmen that have learned their skill by reading, listening and thinking about proper procedures, then doing them. I simply posted true information that I have come to know over the 35 or so years I have as a wood worker. if that upsets you, I can't help it, but I certainly refuse to apologize for posting good useful and accurate information.
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Mitch and Dave, Those are some fine rifles you have shown us . I only wish we could have seen how beautiful they would have been without all the compressed fibers. If only that finish had been allowed to get through all those torn and compressed fibers there`s no telling how good they could be . I`m in a real dilemna here , I want my rifles to someday look as nice as those in the pics but, if I`m ruining the beauty of my wood with the methods used on these rifles I must stop. If someone that has experience with" correct "scrapers would post some pics of their work for comparison it would help everyone here to decide if we want to continue to destroy our work by using "incorrect" tools. Please someone ! help! It would be very nice to SEE the difference. Nice wood is too expensive to keep getting bad results. JMHO
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Scrapers with hooks?????????
Scraping takes on a whole new level when you get a proper burr/hook and shave the wood, not shear. Make 'em curls no dust. Also a big burr is fragile, a wee burr lasts longer. No limit to the size/shapes one can make.
Oh I dread the sandy papers.
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Hi Ron,
I completely agree with you about the angle of the shearing lip of a properly burnished scraper. However, the carving knives and blade scrapers also cut nice and cleanly when sharp and I do not hold then perpendicular with the wood, rather they are at an angle. However, they dull quickly because the angle is more obtuse than the angle of a scraper lip to the wood. They must be sharpened often. That is why I don't use razor blades but prefer the thicker carpet scraper blades, which can be easily honed to scary sharp.
Nordnecker, the rifle I show was rasped, filed and scraped, no sandpaper was used at all. The surface has a very pleasing rippled texture because of the scraping. I don't do that on all of my guns. It just depends on my objectives for each project.
dave
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"I only wish we could have seen how beautiful they would have been without all the compressed fibers."
Usually we judge techniques by results. Saying that these results could have been "better" if only these remarkable craftsmen had used the "correct" techniques is mystifying at best. Craftsmen who can produce results like these are certainly welcome to teach me how to do things the "wrong" way.
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No sense in getting upset because people don't agree with you or find a different approach works for them. We share knowledge and experience here. None of us is the final decider of the one and only proper way. If that's anyone's goal they should teach a class where they get to fail the students.
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Friends,
Scrapers are tools that I have come to rely upon for much of my wood finish work. With all scrapers it is the burr that does the work. Whether you are using a conventional flat honed square edge with a rolled burr made with a burnishing rod on the squared edge, or the sharpened scraper (like Allen Martin) where the last sharpening pass rolls the burr, you are still using the burr to do the cutting. Both tools have their place in my little smithy. Sometimes I will use the large, conventional cabinet scrapers with a nice square edge and burr rolled. I find that I get a finer cut if I sharpen the edge square on my diamond plates after filing. Then the burr is glassy smooth and the shavings are OH-So-fine!. But, for small spots, especially around carving I use my home-made pull scrapers that are filed to a sharp edge. Honing that sharp edge on a diamond stone and pulling the wire-edge/burr over on the last stroke gives me the same level of cut but in a smaller, more maneuverable package. Both types of scrapers compliment each other. For me, it is not an exclusive either-or proposition.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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okay i know about burrs, i just never heard of the terminology, for the same as being hooks,,,
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" hook" is just a slang word for the "burr". it comes from the fact that by the design of a scraper's burr, you are actually "hooking" fibers and peeling them off the work piece..
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Dave,
I really like that star behind the cheek piece. Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!
David Price
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As many of you know or have figured out, I am new to building.
When I was working on my first I wanted to scrape it.
I actually bought scrapers and a Veritas variable burnisher.
The burnisher was money well spent IMO. Can set a burr upto 15 degrees which will take off a fair bit of wood. Can get in trouble quick if you aren't paying attention. I like the variable burnisher because it's controlled. Set it the same and you know how your tool is going to cut. Ive been cleaning up the stock with a 15 degree burr. Whiskering with a 10 and then a 5. Don't know that it makes a difference but made sense in my head lol..
After scraping, I doubt I ever sand wood to finish it again. Faster for me too than sand paper. And IMO a cleaner finish. We have a few "scratches" where I was using the wrong tool for the job and slightly caught the stock with the corner of the scraper. Stocks I've sanded I find many imperfections from sanding.
Now I use sand paper like a rasp...To remove wood. Not to finish it.
One thing...People here mention feeling ripples on their scraped stocks....I must did it wrong cause mine is smooth. Can't feel the curl or anything really. A few spots you might be able to slightly feel the curl but mine came out smooth. Might help that I rubbed out my finish by hand and between coats..I don't know.
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the ripples come from using razor blades and such,.....the shar edge digs in tears the fibers off then lets go when the fibers tear creating troughs that eventually blend into ripples. real scrapers don't do that because they have an actual cutting edge that stys clean and continually cuts evenly. with a razor blade you have to hold it more or less perpendicular to the work surface, this allows the sharp edge to dig in and grab the fibers it tears off. the more perpendicular you hold the blade the worse it's potential to creates troughs, the less perpendicular you hold the blade, the less likely it will act like a scraper, and the more likely it will just burnish the surface, preventing the brilliance of grain structure from the finish to penetrating deeply into clean cut open pores.....
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Beatin a comatose horse here, but I think, respectfully, Ron you may be missing the message with the use of razorblade or utilty blade scrapers. Many of us turn a burr/hook on them prior to use, similar to your basic cabinet scraper. Long John noted this above. The wood removal actions are the same. I have never used an out-of-the-pack utility blade, but once you roll the edge correctly on a fine stone, its a beautiful experience. It is not held vertically. Its held at an angle just like a cabinet scraper, and only works on one side of the blade - the side to which you rolled the burr, obviously.
Mark Wheland showed me how to do it - treat the edge, that is - he may have learned it from Allan Martin.
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Dave,
I really like that star behind the cheek piece. Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!
David Price
You go right ahead, Dave. I like the effect. Especially, by putting the star, sun, cross, etc., off center so it has perspective. Like you are looking up or down on it. My inspiration began with this composition, a design I still really love:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FBaichtalsrifle12_zpsa6592f59.jpg&hash=a97b51b767cc157e02172637028fc3836c0c3dd0)
dave
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Meteor Man , That`s the way I was shown also . .
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Oh Dave I really like a lot,thats beautiful.Do you have any more pictures of that rifle?That sun and moon are awesome.I love looking at youre guys creations.
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Also, nobody has mentioned that not all scraping is done on surfaces that will be seen. I scrape a lot when fitting parts like the butt-plate or the bottom of an inlet. I have all kinds of scrapers and make new ones to custom shapes for specific jobs; but a common handy scraper for me when fitting is dragging the very sharp and very burr-less end of a bench chisel. It works really well.
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I'm sold. I'm going to try scraping on the .32 I'm slowly building. Do you have to "de-whisker" with scraping? What characteristics does the wood show you when you have scraped enough to start finishing?
Roger B.
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Okie Boy, Very True ! I scrape a lot with my chisel ends when inletting and to remove wood as needed in small , tight areas .
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Nordecker
I almost never use sandpaper on the wood of a rifle.I start with rasps,go to files ,then very fine files and finally scapers.Below are a selection of my scrapers(Not all I use are pictured but a sample).I find I rarely use the commercially available cabinet scrapers.Most chisels work well either with a burr or without.The ones on the left are Jerry Fisher scrapers available from Brownells most of which I have modified to suit my use.The scrapers on the right are ones that I made from the blades of the cheap Japanese pull saws from Home Depot.They are my favorites.The material is spring steel but it can be cut with a good pair of shears and shaped with a grinder.Any time I need a new radius I just make a new one,takes about 10 minutes.And finally carpet and sheetrock knife blades.I use these both with and without a bur depending on what i'm doing and often quickly reshape them on a grinder to suit a specific need.I use all these scrapers interchangeably on the same gun side by side with NO discernible difference in quality of finish.
Mitch Yates
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi112.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn166%2Fjmyates%2FDSC_0477_zpsgsp8wvbo.jpg&hash=82d0cb1a3b51799217ef8b6e2b0f72840974c52e)
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Dave,
I really like that star behind the cheek piece. Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!
David Price
You go right ahead, Dave. I like the effect. Especially, by putting the star, sun, cross, etc., off center so it has perspective. Like you are looking up or down on it. My inspiration began with this composition, a design I still really love:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FBaichtalsrifle12_zpsa6592f59.jpg&hash=a97b51b767cc157e02172637028fc3836c0c3dd0)
dave
That's some really cool looking inlay,love the way the sun's peaking out from behind the cheek piece.
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Thank you Joe and Thimble Rig,
Notice that the focal point of the scene is the carved scroll in the middle and that its center is about in the middle of a straight line between the sun and moon. Also notice that the composition is balanced and fills the space without being too ornate. These things are not accidents. Thanks again.
dave
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Dave that is a beautiful stock design with the sun and the moon.
Thanks for sharing.
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Dave,
I have to echo some of the others, here. Your design and use of inlays is Magic! I love it! I'm going to steal some ideas from you, I'm warning you now!
JMC
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I thought I would provide a couple of examples, bad examples, of course. These stocks were scraped, no sand paper ever touched them.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FDSC_0118a_zpshzqwosqg.jpg&hash=ea0ae0970f7050a8c07dc9abc0289f71bf7006ce)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FDSC_0023a_zpsb4r7qzzl.jpg&hash=a57b6ab6996a234c5975d1f0cf8272b81876d9b7)
For the larger areas I used the conventional cabinet scrapers, sometimes flat, sometimes convex, sometimes concave and close in near the carving I used small home-made pull scrapers.
It works for me.
JMC
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Long John , Man those are NICE!!! That`s some beautiful wood and really nice work.
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Beautiful John!! Did you use your homemade vinegar stain?
dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the compliment.
Yes. I have had the same earthen ware crock of stain for 20 years. Every time I finish a rifle I had some vinegar to the crock, stir it up, let it settle and decant off about half a cup of clear liquid stain. I have found that it is a good idea to add just one drop of Dawn dish detergent to the half cup of stain. It breaks down the surface tension of the water and helps the stain penetrate. I also wash the stock with warm soapy water (Dawn again) as part of my wood cleaning prior to staining. I whisker the stock, burnish it with a brush made of hemp rope real good before applying stain.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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If those are bad examples I would love to see what one of your good guns would look like :)
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Long John,
Is your "vinegar stain" the type where old rusty iron pieces are put into vinegar and left to percolate for several weeks? I have used this type of stain on everything from antler knife handles to various wooden projects. My son has made several pieces of furniture for his home and also used this stain with great success. Neat trick with dipping off some stain and adding a drop of Dawn. Great tip. Thanks.
elkhorne
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Elkhorne,
Yes. I just answered another post regarding vinegar/iron stain with more detail.
JMC