AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: yellowhousejake on April 27, 2017, 06:19:44 AM
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I have my first rifle with a powder chamber or patent breech, How are others getting those cleaned? Currently I use a .375 brush and while that seems to work, trying to oil the chamber after cleaning is a problem. Removing the oil before shooting is not much better. I thought about making a split jag to hold the patch in the reduced diameter of the chamber. Currently I use a patch wrapped brush but some patches come off in the bore and getting them out requires a worm.
I claan the bore with a drilled through nipple and a sucker tube and bottle. Works fine, has for decades. But oiling the chamber after cleaning, and then de-oiling before shooting, is a problem for me.
Is there a better way I am just too dense to see?
Thanks,
DAve
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I use a slotted tip on my cleaning rod with a smaller cotton flannel patch to get down into the chamber.
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Maybe I live under a rock but I have not heard of a Patent Breech for years. Just saying....
You already have a good reply and I agree with what has been said. But I would add that whatever process you use do not include old T-shirt material in any way. Folds over on itself and has a tendency to get stuck. Well - that's my experience with it anyhow..
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Hi Dave,
I too think the slotted jag is the answer.
Some folks use a bristle brush of the correct size to brush out this area. I'd use a nylon brush so as to never stick a brush in there.
Cabela's sells some pipe cleaners that have a barbed, plastic core. These snake into the flash channel really well for me for cleaning that area.
Once I have flushed my gun's breech/barrel, I blow a little compressed air down the threaded nipple hole to blow out the moisture. I then spray a little Rem Oil down the same hole. It is very thin, and evaporates leaving a light film. Popping a cap or two before shooting seems to blow anything left right out.
Store your rifle muzzle down, or at least horizontal. You don't want preservative to settle in the breech and harden. Ask me how I know.
A tip of the hat to Daryl and Taylor for patient advice on my percussion breech issue. Once they weigh in on this post, believe what they say.
I hope this helps. Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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The patent breaches that I have seen are less than 5/16" more like 9/32" in diameter so that 3/8" brush is not getting down to the end. I'd use a 1/4" to a .270 nylon brush with a patch wrapped around it.
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Only way to get them spotlessly clean, is to take the barrel off the stock and dunk the breech end in a conainter of water. I use a 2-quart stainless bucket I bought at Princess Auto. An empty plastic Folgers coffee can works just about as well.
A folded wet flannellette patch is wet then placed over the muzzle, then a jag of the appropriate size is centred on that folded patch and this shoved to the breech, then pulled up to the muzzle so water is sucked into the bore (through empty nipple seat or vent), once the water it up to the patched jag at the muzzle, the whole works is shoved down with force, blasting water and crud out of the barrel - repeat about 20 times and the barrel is clean and they water is slightly greyish in colour. If it is black, you ball and patch combination sucks - is too loose. The only fouling buildup that should be in the bore, is that in the breech or patent breech area where the patched ball does not clean it when is is loaded.
After pulling the patch out of the bore, the barrel is dried with a towel, then dry- patched out - usually takes 4 or maybe 5 patched to dry the bore. The last couple patches should be harder to pull our then really hard to withdraw from the now bone-dry bore. I then liberally spray WD40 down the bore until it runs out the vent or nipple seat, then run a doubled clean patch down the bore, blasting excess WD40 out the vent or nipple seat- run that patch up and down several times, then pull it out and use it to wipe down the outside of the bore.
Thus - to "properly" (for me) clean a barrel, takes 5 or 6 patches only - which are reusable if you want. Thus, due to the flushing action of the water, the breech area, no matter what type, is clean and dry, with the WD40 blasting out any residual moisture. Works for US.
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Only way to get them spotlessly clean, is to take the barrel off the stock and dunk the breech end in a conainter of water. I use a 2-quart stainless bucket I bought at Princess Auto. An empty plastic Folgers coffee can works just about as well.
A folded wet flannellette patch is wet then placed over the muzzle, then a jag of the appropriate size is centred on that folded patch and this shoved to the breech, then pulled up to the muzzle so water is sucked into the bore (through empty nipple seat or vent), once the water it up to the patched jag at the muzzle, the whole works is shoved down with force, blasting water and crud out of the barrel - repeat about 20 times and the barrel is clean and they water is slightly greyish in colour. If it is black, you ball and patch combination sucks - is too loose. The only fouling buildup that should be in the bore, is that in the breech or patent breech area where the patched ball does not clean it when is is loaded.
After pulling the patch out of the bore, the barrel is dried with a towel, then dry- patched out - usually takes 4 or maybe 5 patched to dry the bore. The last couple patches should be harder to pull our then really hard to withdraw from the now bone-dry bore. I then liberally spray WD40 down the bore until it runs out the vent or nipple seat, then run a doubled clean patch down the bore, blasting excess WD40 out the vent or nipple seat- run that patch up and down several times, then pull it out and use it to wipe down the outside of the bore.
Thus - to "properly" (for me) clean a barrel, takes 5 or 6 patches only - which are reusable if you want. Thus, due to the flushing action of the water, the breech area, no matter what type, is clean and dry, with the WD40 blasting out any residual moisture. Works for US.
This is the method I used on bolster breech rifles. I used warm water soluble cutting oil and then a patch with sperm oil.
Before loading any patent breech gun,put a dry patch in the muzzle and fire a cap or maybe two of them and if the patch
blows away then load and fire.
Bob Roller
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Hello,first post here. Do you have to clean out the wd40 before you shoot the rifle again after cleaning? I have flintlock not cap. Thank You
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Hello,first post here. Do you have to clean out the wd40 before you shoot the rifle again after cleaning? I have flintlock not cap. Thank You
First off WD 40 is not a good rust preventative.
ANY oil in the bore needs to be allowed to drain out the muzzle by setting the firearm muzzle down for at least a few hours. I like over night.
If you are worried use some alcohol to dry the bore. But the muzzle down technique works well with light weight oils. If its something viscous or something that dries to a grease then use at least a dry patch. If loading for hunting, loaded for hours or more, wipe the bore with patch wet with alcohol then wipe dry.
Dan
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Daryl's procedure is mine, more or less, too. I can vouch for his observations on dirtiness of water versus suitability of load, as well, as I have been using a thin patch with some oversized balls on my offhand rifle in order to use them up, and the water is black, whereas with my normal load the water is just grey with all other factors being equal.
I debreeched my 40 cal. flintlock Chunk and table barrel after a couple of seasons and it was clean as a whistle. I peeked in my 50 Cal barrel while changing touchhole liner with same result. Patent breeches with hooks.
Wd40 works for me, especially if I'm shooting every two weeks or so. Even if a barrel goes several months, it seems to protect well enough. For more than that, there's cosmolene...
I always wipe wd40 out with alcohol and patch just before shooting.
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Thank you all for the answers, a split jag it will be then. The rifle is a Pedersoli Whitworth and the chamber 3/8", a 375 brush cleans it nicely, but drying it is the problem.
I have always cleaned percussion rifles (I do not own a flinter, yet) with a bored out nipple which I push a vinyl hose over and drop the other end into a jug of steaming hot water. It takes but a few pumps with a wet patch to clean the bore and flash channel. When I am happy it is clean, the water and patches are clean, I use some fresh hot water through the bore, when the barrel is warm it drys fast and takes the oil. I used to only use VVL-800 light weapons oil. I can highly recommend it, but my supply is low. I recently started using straight Balistol and I am very happy with it so far. I only use thick flannel patches. Find it on sale at the fabric store and I can take five bucks worth and make over 500 patches in a hour with my wife's roller cutter and ruler. She is a very understanding woman.
I've been reading lately on here about storing muzzle down. I have never had a problem but I store my barrels pretty dry, good oil lets you do that. I am thinking about switching to muzzle down anyway now.
I appreciate the help.
DAve
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Only way to get them spotlessly clean, is to take the barrel off the stock and dunk the breech end in a conainter of water. I use a 2-quart stainless bucket I bought at Princess Auto. An empty plastic Folgers coffee can works just about as well.
A folded wet flannellette patch is wet then placed over the muzzle, then a jag of the appropriate size is centred on that folded patch and this shoved to the breech, then pulled up to the muzzle so water is sucked into the bore (through empty nipple seat or vent), once the water it up to the patched jag at the muzzle, the whole works is shoved down with force, blasting water and crud out of the barrel - repeat about 20 times and the barrel is clean and they water is slightly greyish in colour. If it is black, you ball and patch combination sucks - is too loose. The only fouling buildup that should be in the bore, is that in the breech or patent breech area where the patched ball does not clean it when is is loaded.
After pulling the patch out of the bore, the barrel is dried with a towel, then dry- patched out - usually takes 4 or maybe 5 patched to dry the bore. The last couple patches should be harder to pull our then really hard to withdraw from the now bone-dry bore. I then liberally spray WD40 down the bore until it runs out the vent or nipple seat, then run a doubled clean patch down the bore, blasting excess WD40 out the vent or nipple seat- run that patch up and down several times, then pull it out and use it to wipe down the outside of the bore.
Thus - to "properly" (for me) clean a barrel, takes 5 or 6 patches only - which are reusable if you want. Thus, due to the flushing action of the water, the breech area, no matter what type, is clean and dry, with the WD40 blasting out any residual moisture. Works for US.
👍👍. Been doing it this way 40 odd years. Flat plug drum n nipple get hose and flinters get a tooth pick and soak. Store in safe muzzle up. A little alcohol and bang.
Only problem I ever had was w Ballistol. Bad rust took a LOT of elbow grease w steel wool, valve grinding compound etc. Someone said Ballistol was still cleaning- BS red is iron oxide, RUST. If still
leaning P it would be black or grey.
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My solution was to sell the rifle. I really can't stand that breach set up. For what I do, a flat surfaced , polished breach face works like a charm. I've coned a couple , just to see if there was much of a difference , [ customer's request ] but after dry balling once, one came back for retrofit .
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I don't like guns with any kind of patent breech; but I can live with them and have not experienced a problem traceable back to the patent breech. Currently, I have only one rifle with a patent breech. For cleaning I clean a usual and use a small bore mop to clean out the channel from the inside. Then I'll use pipe cleaners to clean from the outside through the bolster.
I use Barricade for rust protection or occasionally "BreakFree CLP". Guns are stored horizontally with the muzzle angled downward. WD40 is used as part of the cleaning process but not as a rust inhibitor. It may help for a short while but I'm aware of numerous failures of WD40 in the past.
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I thought long and hard before using a flint hooked patent breech on my chunk gun, but the ability to change barrels easily was a desirable feature. The speed and reliability has exceeded my wildest expectations, probably due to coning the chamber mouth and drilling good-sized passage from liner to chamber. I think a lot of problems are caused in patent breech percussion guns by making passages too small. I have very rare flash in pan, which another pick of vent fixes, but at this point have waited at many chunk relays for percussion rifles to go off. Often they end up pulling the ball. More than once, I've seen them drop out of match after multiple fouled rounds. All I mean to say is that patent breeches do work, but bad implementation of design can cause problems.
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I just love this one - hooked breech flinter.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FA%2520Verner%2F100_1675.jpg&hash=380ab7a5aa0ca00cc0a2d38e6a9ab2bd63f743f3) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/A%20Verner/100_1675.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FA%2520Verner%2F100_1722.jpg&hash=e757b064ece6c382e5d429a38db21409e991bd00) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/A%20Verner/100_1722.jpg.html)
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Dave welcome to the forum.
But oiling the chamber after cleaning, and then de-oiling before shooting, is a problem for me.
I use brake cleaner to degrease my barrels. I started when I used drum and nippls caplock and just kept on. Blasts out all the left over oil and grease when sprayed through the nipple or touch hole. The only caution I give is that do not run a dry patch down or it very likely get stuck. I do run a very lightly lubed patch down as without any rust preventive your bore will rust. I have not had a fail to fire when hunting since I started this process. It even worked on my son's CVA and their whacked out breeching system.
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Steve, be careful with that stuff not to get it on your skin or eyes. It sure does work, as does most stuff with lots of "Warning!" messages and skull-and-crossbones symbols. Does nasty things to humans and animals.
I would also be sure and oil the cleaned metal with something. Brake cleaner/carb cleaner/carbon tet takes all the oils off of the metal, and things can rust fast afterwards.
Just my experience. Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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If the ante-chamber is properly shaped it can be flushed completely clean of any fouling, provided you clean it every day you shoot it and don't let oil or wiping juice creep down into the fouled chamber and sit like that for two or three days. That fouling will turn into something like asphalt and will need some effort to remove. I breach all my guns with an ante-chamber and have since 1993. The best way to clean one is to take out the touch hole liner and flush from the back end. Wrapping the liner with Teflon plumbers tape makes it easy to remove. Plugging the touch hole with a toothpick and pouring cleaning juice down the bore works too, but you have to be real careful or you'll have gunk running all down in your lock mortise and triggers. To oil it, just oil the dry bore with a patch soaked in machine oil and stand the gun up on its butt. By tomorrow, oil will be running out the touch hole if you don't plug it with a toothpick. As for cleaning the oil out, pour a cap full of isopropyl alcohol down the barrel and blow it out with a patch on your jag, run another dry patch up and down, then wait about half a minute and its dry and clean. Same thing for a capgun.
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When I was a kid I had a TC 50 cal flinter. TCs have the powder chamber type plug. I wore the muzzle out by loading. Thousand and and thousands of shots. I did not know enough to realize the powder chamber needed special cleaning. I just used a pot of hot soapy water. I use some handy oil after. The barrel never rusted a bit. When I removed the breech plug, many years later it was fine.
I specualte that water dissolves any bad stuff. Anything left is just a little carbon and the oil is enough to prevent rust.
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My Parker Hale .451 Volunteer has one of those darn patent breeches, find I have to remove the nipple and prime for the the first shot most times. Even priming the nipple is not quite good enough. I use a .22 cal cleaning rod and loop fitting to wipe out the breach first. A late mate who shot a Gibbs long range rifle also found the same issue for the first shot. I have even tried the air compressor trick before a trip to the range without much luck. I cap off a number of times , I have a platinum lined nipple which has a ver fine hole. After the first shot is away then there are no further issues.
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Heelerau, is he storing the rifle muzzle up?
If the bore protectant migrates, it'll plug up the flash channel and breech at times.
Just sharing what I experienced.
Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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That rifle sounds like a gun cleaned with damp patches, not pumped and flushed with a water bath. Cleaned thusly, the breech is cleaned perfectly. When running the dry patches up and down the bore, the rush of air through teh breech will help dry the patent breech - THEN the flush of WD40 takes ALL the residual moisture out the nipple seat, then dry patched blasting the excess WD40 out - then wiped down and reassembled - THEN stored muzzle down for a while. I leave mine muzzle down in the lockup. The guns do not mind. I never have trouble getting first shot ignition- every time with my cap locks (2) with patent breeches, nor with my flinters (2) with patent breeches.
I fire a cap on the cap locks to ensure the pathway is clear. On the flinters I look to see if the vent is open - it always is open now that I store the guns, muzzle down. Before, they vent would always be plugged with oil on the flinters. I do not remember having trouble with a cap lock if firing a cap first before loading.
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I store mine horizontally but with the barrel angled downward.
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Only problem I ever had was w Ballistol. Bad rust took a LOT of elbow grease w steel wool, valve grinding compound etc. Someone said Ballistol was still cleaning- BS red is iron oxide, RUST.
Huh? Rust? Waddya mean Rust?
I thought Ballistol was a Sophisticated Modern Cleaner good for everything from your molars to gun barrel?
Bought a can, have yet to use it.
Perhaps I will keep it that way. Just use Dasani for clean up at range, before I go home.
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Interesting about the Balistol. Along with Hoppes #9 I've been using it for years without any issues.
I sometimes hit the barrel with Break Free Power Blast and then brush / patch - repeat and then Balistol.
Thinking of trying compressed air (the stuff used to clean electronic found at Staples) in the process as well. Hoppes wet patch/ brush / dry
patch / COMPRESSED AIR BLAST - repeat and then Balistol........
I am not going to dismount the barrel at each cleaning. Not into driving out pins. Wedges would not be an issue, but I dread pin removal.
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JC, I like Ballistol for cleaning the outside of the gun, it does work well on wood and the outside of the barrel for just getting general dirt and grime off. . I have not had great success with it for cleaning and preserving the interior though. Like you, I got a lot of after rust. By the way, it was designed by the Germans during WW I I think as an all purpose cleaner/oil for their guns which of course would have been smokeless. According to Wikipedia, which is never wrong as we all know, it damages the seasoning in the bores of black powder guns!
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The oil wars are funny to me.
To be a contrarian I have been using 75% charcoal lighter, 20% ATF and a dollop of STP. I bought an easy fill WD40 spray bottle for it. For WD 40 appropriate tasks it works about the same as other light oily sprays.
I bought Balistol once, I find the stench obnoxious. It is nearly 100% mineral oil, so is baby oil. There is an alcohol in it that allows it to mix with water. That part stinks. Some folks love it, I don't get it. If it makes a person happy I won't argue the point.
For real preserving I am using a product called,"Fluid Film Rust & Corrosion Preventive Penetrant & Lubricant". It contains lanolin. It is cheap and easy to find. IT smells nice, works, and leaves my hands soft.
For really long term, like barrels I am storing for future use I use real cosmoline, put on a hot barrel, and wrapped in plastic food wrap then butcher paper.
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According to Wikipedia, which is never wrong as we all know, it damages the seasoning in the bores of black powder guns!
If that were only true there'd never be any rust problems. 8)
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Under a separate thread I am going to paste a link to a large evaluation of gun care lubes/preservatives. The fellow was very thorough in his testing. Being an engineer I appreciate his approach. Ballistol did not come out so well in his testing. Best wishes, Marc
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Under a separate thread I am going to paste a link to a large evaluation of gun care lubes/preservatives. The fellow was very thorough in his testing. Being an engineer I appreciate his approach. Ballistol did not come out so well in his testing. Best wishes, Marc
Well, I may be switching back to good old Remoil. Smells better than Balistol too.
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A long time ago I found a brass brush that was designed exclusively for cleaning a breach plug face\chamber.
It was a group of brass strands like a very stiff paint brush. Over time the straight downward bristles would round out to fit the contour of any breach.
Clockwise turning while giving a good scrub kept the brush from coming lose from the cleaning rod.
I have not seen this brush on the market in a very long time but gladly picked up 3 of them way back when and am currently on the last one. It fits into all of the small alcoves of my patent breach plugs and assures a squeaky clean job!
All of the talk about rust prevention has been answered many times here and I will always be a stickler with the time tested RIG grease! ;)
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It was about 10 years ago a guy came to me asking if I would debreech his gun and drill his anichamber out as he thought it too small. He had never had any ignition problems but wanted something larger so he could clean it. We unbreeched it and found it was 1/4 in dia. and drilled it out to 3/8. Funny thing was the inside of the 1/4 in. hole was as clean as could be. I asked him what he had been cleaning with and he said he couldn't get a patch down into the chamber but just used water, forcing it though, pumping it with a cleaning patch and drying it best he could and using wd40 after he had it as dry as he could get it. It was a winning method as he had a clean unrusted bore. He did spend alot of his time in a dryer climate which might have helped.
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A long time ago I found a brass brush that was designed exclusively for cleaning a breach plug face\chamber.
It was a group of brass strands like a very stiff paint brush. Over time the straight downward bristles would round out to fit the contour of any breach.
Clockwise turning while giving a good scrub kept the brush from coming lose from the cleaning rod.
I have not seen this brush on the market in a very long time but gladly picked up 3 of them way back when and am currently on the last one. It fits into all of the small alcoves of my patent breach plugs and assures a squeaky clean job!
All of the talk about rust prevention has been answered many times here and I will always be a stickler with the time tested RIG grease! ;)
They still make them. I use this one.
http://www.octobercountry.com/msm-breech-brush/
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What have I learned from this?
The most important thing I can do is clean the rifle well. I currently, and have always, used a sucker tube over a drilled out nipple and flushed my barrel with clean hot water until the patches are no longer dirty. It seems that is enough. I did buy a 375 caliber mop to ensure I get a good coat of oil in the chamber after future cleanings.
I have tried many concoctions of cleaning fluids over the years but I always went back to just water. Maybe a bit of MOS or dish soap to act as a surfactent. If I forgot to add it, I didn't worry about it.
I will give the solvent shot in the bolster the morning I shoot a try. That should fix any left over oils my normal pre-first-shot-patch is missing.
Thanks everyone.
DAve
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Don't use hot water, please. It does not help the cleaning process and can cause damage that is accumulative.
If the maker of the Worlds most expensive rifles, who has been in business for 200 yards, says "USE COLD WATER ONLY FOR CLEANING BLACK POWDER FOULED GUNS" - I listen. I am telling you all this, to help you avoid hurting your bores. Since that day I switched from hot water to cold water, I have not FLASH RUSTED a bore. The said, use cold tap water only, then dry the bore, then use a water displacing lubricant, like WD40 to rid the bore of any residual moisture, then patch out and store.
I will add that if you live in an area of high average Hunidity, say over 60%, that perhaps you may want to use a better 'long term preservative' than WD40. It has done it's job in removing or eliminating any residual moisture. For those in the dryer climates, more protection is not normally required.
When I used hot water, 1972 through 1976 I flash-rusted my rifle's bore every time I cleaned it. Since I stopped using hot water that same year, I have not rusted a bore - they are all shinier than new when viewed with a bore light or if the plugs are removed.
A friend of Taylor's and I, insisted on using hot water. After 15 to 20 years of use & due to that hot water usage, we (Taylor and I) had to lead-lap the bore to make it shoot-able again. The effects of flash rusting are accumulative as EXPLAINED by Holland And Holland of England. (not the same people as the new ML barrel maker who scabbed the famous name of H&H)
The bore of that rifle was pitted one end to the other.
This shooter only used black powder, no subs and he would not even have a beer when getting home of back to camp, without cleaning his rifle first. He was meticulous about cleaning the rifle FIRST before doing ANYTHING else. Of course, every time he cleaned it, the oil patch after drying came out with red rust on it.
You've been warned - so - do as you want. It's your barrel.
I will repeat, though, hot water is not needed nor does it do anything that cold water will not do as well. Hot water can only hurt your barrel. Some steels MAY be more susceptible to flash rusting than others, I do not know. I only know that when I followed what was written in the US magazines and Gun Digests, from 1972 through 76, I got flash rusting in my TC and the 'custom' Bauska barrels I experimented with. After reading that letter from H&H in late 76, I stopped using hot water - NO MORE FLASH RUSTING and NO RUSTING AT ALL for the last 40 years of shooting these rifles and shotguns. I have used only cold water, and WD40 as moisture blaster and preservative.
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Only problem I ever had was w Ballistol. Bad rust took a LOT of elbow grease w steel wool, valve grinding compound etc. Someone said Ballistol was still cleaning- BS red is iron oxide, RUST.
Huh? Rust? Waddya mean Rust?
I thought Ballistol was a Sophisticated Modern Cleaner good for everything from your molars to gun barrel?
Bought a can, have yet to use it.
Perhaps I will keep it that way. Just use Dasani for clean up at range, before I go home.
Taylor and friend Ron both tried Ballistol here. Taylor thought perhaps his was contaminated as it was given to him in a non-commercial container. His barrel rusted over night. It was at a fall hunt and quite humid every day(rain).
Friend Ron bought a brand new can of Ballistol, used it and HIS barrel ALSO rusted over night. It was quite humid that year at Hefley, not in the single digits as normal- humidity in the rain, likely 75% to 85%.
Last Saturday we spoke with a visiting German fellow at our R&G Club's "Heritage Day". He said he to, was a black powder shooter. Taylor asked him about Ballistol and he said pretty much the same thing as Dphar - who said do not use a water soluable oil as a rust preventative as the water soluble oil will absorb moisture from the air, then your gun rusts. Actually the German fellow looked at us rather strangely when asked this and said "NO - never, you gun will rust". How or why some guys get away with it, perhaps they live in VERY dry climates.
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Daryl................What always bothered me about WD-40 is it's a petroleum product. It's well known that we shouldn't mix petroleum with black powder.
What's your take on this?
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Don't use hot water, please. It does not help the cleaning process and can cause damage that is accumulative.
In 40 years of cleaning ML firearms I have never experienced flash rusting from cleaning with hot water from the tap. I only use hot water becuase it helps the soap/surfactant to mix. I agree it does nothing to break down the fouling.
I have also used petroleum products with no evil goo being created. I've used commerical mixtures, "secret" solutions, expensive blends of space age technology. None harmed my firearms, none cleaned any better than water. A sucker tube and flushing the bore has always worked as well, and sometimes better, than anything else I have done.
I have been hesitant to use WD-40 as my experience with it has not been good as anything other than a door-squeek-stopper, but as a water displacer it seems popular. I might add it as a middle step before oiling this summer. I can still learn something from others.
DAve
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Daryl................What always bothered me about WD-40 is it's a petroleum product. It's well known that we shouldn't mix petroleum with black powder.
What's your take on this?
I don't try to mix WD40 with black powder fouling nor do I try to use it as a patch lube - THAT is where you should not try petroleum oils as they do not mix with BP fouling.
I use WD40 when the bore is clean & dry - clean steel likes WD40. The WD40's purpose is simply to get rid of any residual moisture that could be left in nooks, crannies around the plug's face and barrel, aund corners in a bolster type breech where the patch cannot reach, just as H&H said to use it, as well as a preservative for this dry-ish climate.
Sometimes before I load the first shot (if only a week between usage, I run a patch down the bore and out to remove any oil that still might be in the bore. That patch usually comes out with just a tich of oil on it, and as clean as a whistle, just as it did when patching out the excess WD40 after cleaning and oiling - no grey whatsoever. I also store my ML guns muzzle-down, so there is never a plugged nipple or vent.
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Daryl............I use the flush method and do admit to using hot water. After running clean patches down the bore to dry it off after flushing. I turn on a burner on the stove (electric) I hold the breech end over the heat to dry up any moisture left in that area. Not sure i'm doing any good, but it makes me feel better.
Could you do me a favor? I'm an old crow set in his ways, but there's a small part in my brain that's still open to learning new things. Can you post a step by step of the whole process you do from shooting your last shot to taking the next shot whenever you shoot next? Every little step, so we know what you do from beginning to end.
Thanky. :)
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Yes; hot water can cause problems with rust. I use tap water that I keep a couple of plastic jugs filled with in my cleaning room; just cold tap water. Along with my persistent nature, cold water gets those bores clean. I also use denatured alcohol and WD40 in my cleaning process. If I need to quick dry any part I have a $2 thrift store hair dryer. The last step is using Barricade or Break Free CLP for rust protection. One thing I consider a must is to monitor each rifle bore a couple of times the following week and at least every two or three weeks after that.
And petroleum oils are fine in BP gun bores; just not mixed with fouling or powder. Before shooting I always run a dry patch or two down the bore and "dent pick" the flash hole. The lock is wiped off with alcohol and the whole ball of wax takes maybe one and a half or two minutes (I'm congenitally slow).
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Daryl............I use the flush method and do admit to using hot water. After running clean patches down the bore to dry it off after flushing. I turn on a burner on the stove (electric) I hold the breech end over the heat to dry up any moisture left in that area. Not sure i'm doing any good, but it makes me feel better.
Could you do me a favor? I'm an old crow set in his ways, but there's a small part in my brain that's still open to learning new things. Can you post a step by step of the whole process you do from shooting your last shot to taking the next shot whenever you shoot next? Every little step, so we know what you do from beginning to end.
Thanky. :)
Pete, please read the text first.
A minute or two before loading my rifle for the video, I had just fired the last shot on the trail. Someone said, lets make a movie of you and Ross loading and shooting. Here it is. Neither of us and actually no one we shoot with, ever has to run a wet patch down the bore to 'clean' or 'wipe' it before loading the next one.
Here is a step by step loading procedure. This video was taken at the end of the day's shooting. I had fired 40 to 55 shots that day- simply loading as you see here, after every shot- no wiping done as no wiping needed. There was no change in the bore's condition after the second shot, due to using a .0225" (10 OUNCE denim) patch and .445" ball in the .450rifle. Once loaded but not primed, I wait for my turn, step up to the line, prime and fire. No wiping at any time is done. The fouling from the last shot is wiped from the bore by loading the next shot.
After the shot, I step back away from the shooting line and re-load just as you see here. Due to using a water based lube, I was using 65gr. 3f GOEX.
In this loading video, I already have a patch laying on the muzzle, with a ball centered on the patch. I use the short peg on the starter to push the ball down with one blow of the hand, then turn to the long peg on the starter which puts the ball down 6" or so - with one blow of the hand. The rod then successively pushes the load down onto the powder. Note, I put the hole in the starter's head on then end of the ramrod and smack it one time. That sets the ball on the powder with the same force- every time. I found if I did not do this, meaning only pushing the ball down to the powder, but without the little compression 'slap', I recorded higher spreads between shots and 100fps lower average speed. The last slap to add slight compression of the powder evened the shot velocity spreads and increased the velocity. This of course, is due to the more efficient burning of the powder. THe BP cgt. shooters know, this, the ML shooters should as well.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F58%2520Kodiak%2520Refinish%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4&hash=a90b5ece3eb7a877c815f16f74ded5a2cb7f1e56) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4)
Over the years, I have noticed some guys simply cannot believe this, so perhaps
this year we'll make another video, of shooting then loading and shooting again.
Really- none of us EVER has to wipe a bore while shooting. The 50th or 90th load,
loads as easily as the first.
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A misunderstanding Daryl. I was asking about the cleaning procedure. From your last shot of the day until your next shot whether it's the next day or next month.
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SRY - my mistake.
Once I get home and after some time, decide to clean the rifle or smoothbore, I remove the barrel (and it's nipple on a cap gun) and lock and set the stock leaning between the pegs sticking out from the side of my bench so it
or they cannot fall over.
I grab a handful of flanellette patches, WD40 can and cleaning rod with jag, along with a couple old towels used specifically for drying the barrel and wiping off the lock.
I fill a stainless bucket about 3 quart size & head with water from the cold tap out to the lower basement entry in the carport, wet everything down, lean the barrel or barrels against the door jam, pick up the old toothbrush
(lock cleaning toothbrush) on the step beside the door and wet then brush off all the fouling from the lock. Once the lock is clean, I blow of the excess water with either my own breath, or
compressed air., give it a shake or two, blow it off again then set it in the sun if THAT is shining, to dry further.
I shove the barrel, breech-down into the bucket of water. Wet a patch in the water, then double it and place it over the muzzle. If I am cleaning the 48" barrel, I step up on the second step -
makes it easier to reach the muzzle with the patch pumping water. After about 15 to 20 strokes allowing the water to come into the bore all the way to the patch at the muzzle - you can hear it
sucking into the bore through the vent or nipple seat and feel it bump against the jag when it hits the patch, then push down hard, flushing the water out of the vent or nipple seat, up/down
/up/down - 15 or so times. The water, if you are using a tight-enough ball and patch combo will only have a little colour - grayish. Now, if you've fired 50 to 100 shots without wiping, there will be
more accumulated fouling in the 'chamber' area that the patched ball never touches. Because of that, the water will be darker. Once I am satisfied the barrel is clean - it will or should be after 15
or 20 strokes if it is a smooth barrel, without pits. If it has pits, you will see the patch losing it's integrity from wear cause by the pits. It will be 'ratty' on the sides. This will show with an old
barrel, or perhaps one that has been shot with Pyrodex. After removing the rod and cleaning patch from the bore and setting the rod aside, I put my thumb over the muzzle, pull the barrel out of
the bucket, turn it around and let the water inside pour out of the muzzle into the bucket. I then use a towel to wipe down the outside of the barrel and set it aside. I then go get the lock out of
the sun give it another wipe down if there is any moisture on it, then spray it all over with WD40 so the excess flows off the lock into the water bucket. I give it a shake and set it down on one of
the towels. I then dry patch the barrel with doubled flannellette patches - even after the first sometimes, and definitely after the second, you can feel the patch starting to drag on the way out.
This shows the bore is almost dry. 4 patches are usually used and there will be gray normally on these patches - never any red. If you set these patches out overnight, they will show red in the
morning or by the next day due to the iron oxides pulled off the dry bore by the patch. The last one, whether it's the 4th or 5th, will be very hard to pull out due to the dry bore. Some barrel
steels I have noticed, show more oxides from the bore than others. Once the bore is dry, I spray WD40 down the bore using the red straw that comes with each DW40 can - liberally sprayed. I
then run a clean doubled patch down the bore hard, forcing the excess WD40 in the bore to blast it out the vent or nipple seat. This spray will last for 2 or 3 "pumps" - remove the patch and it is
still as clean (no colour added from the bore) as it was going in - it is only wet with WD40. I wipe down the outside of the barrel, then dump the bucket of dirty water, pick up the parts and head
inside with the bl. and lock (and cleaning stuff). I wet a cleaning patch with water or shooting lube, and wipe the fouling from the stock/s around the lock area, then use the WD40 barrel patch to
wipe over the tang it the barrel is hooked. I check the lock for excess oil and if there is some, wipe and blow it off. Reinstall the barrel (wiped down with the WD40 patch) with keys or pins.
Reinstall the lock and wipe the stock off head to toe with a clean towel. I then store then muzzle down in the rack, in the gun storage room.
Man - takes a long time to type it out - cleaning a rifle barrel and lock - all of the above, takes about 10-15 minutes tops to accomplish. The shorter the barrel, the less time it takes due to shorter
strokes and easier handling. I think my Musketoon(1861 Enfield) takes perhaps no more than 6 or 7 minutes to disassemble, clean and reassemble.
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Thanks a lot, Daryl. We're doing the same thing, except I use hot water and no WD-40. I'm going to try your way.
What about when you're ready to shoot again? Do you run an alcohol patch down the bore to get rid of the WD-40? What about the breech channel? Do you fire a couple of caps to dry out any WD-40, or just dry it in general? I know some guys will pour alcohol down into the breech channel before shooting.
I assume you're using a liquid patch lube like Lehigh of Mr Flintlock? It's the only way I can shoot without swabbing. My hunting lube is either mink oil or bear tallow. I need to swab almost every shot with it, but I like it because it stays soft in cold weather.
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I sometimes run a dry patch down the bore before loading a cleaned rifle, IF there has beena short period of time between cleaning the rifle and shooting again, such as a week of less,
as at Rendezvous. I've never tried the alcohol patch as I do not see or have seen nothing detrimental after using a dry patch. With a cap lock, I fire a cap, muzzle pointed at a blade of grass of
weed-leaf to see it move. With the flinter, I look at the vent - if plugged with oil. I blow through the vent to blow the oil into the bore, then wipe the bore and re-check the vent for being plugged.
If it is open, I load her up.
For hunting using Mink Oil or Neetsfoot Oil I do not have to wipe at all for the next or 10th shot after the first. I assume from this my patches might be thicker or I'm using larger balls in ratio to
the bore size. I use WWWF + a bit of oil for trail walks. Always an oil or grease-type lube for hunting, as noted, Neetsfoot or Mink.
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Thanks, bud.
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You are most welcome, Old Mtn. Man.
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Years ago someone told me that WD 40 was derived from fish oil and not petroleum, can any one square me/us away on that?
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It's petroleum.
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That is my understanding as well, however at one time, it was classified as a bio-degradable product, however, the label says is contains "Petrolium Distilates" Thus, it is unlikely it will mix with BP- so I don't mix it, I use it simply as a moisture displacement fluid, which it seems to do remarkably well, along with using it as a preservative, which it also does here in central B.C., quite well.
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"For hunting using Mink Oil or Neetsfoot Oil I do not have to wipe at all for the next or 10th shot after the first. I assume from this my patches might be thicker or I'm using larger balls in ratio to
the bore size. I use WWWF + a bit of oil for trail walks. Always an oil or grease-type lube for hunting, as noted, Neetsfoot or Mink."
>>>>>>>>>>>
What is WWWF?
How do you put the Mink or Neetsfoot oil on the patches? Do you oil the patches in advance or do you oil them right before you load?
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For hunting, a loading block with oil lubed or greased patched balls is pretty standard. In the larger bores, like .58's or larger, paper ctgs. containing powder and ball are nicer (impervious to temperature extremes) to use and carry as well as being faster to load. Some guns cannot fire more than a couple of those before needed to either be wiped or use a wet patch/ball combo for a cleaning shot. My 14 bore allows 10 paper ctgs. being fired between cleaning loads with a squib load of 82gr. and wet patched ball. The paper ctg. is a tight fit into the bore, not loose as in military paper ctg. loads. Loose means inaccurate. Tight ones will shoot as well as cloth patched balls and to the sights.
WWWF+oil is Winter Windshield Washer Fluid + a tich of Neetsfoot oil. I use about 1 1/2 to 2oz. per quart, oil to water. Shake to mix, then pour over cut patches in a container. Mus shake prior to lubing as the water-based fluid separates quickly form the oil.
I like the oil as it slows evapouration in the summer time at Rendezvous B.C. It can be very hot there - well over 100F out in the sun.
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Who ever decided the patented breech should be used in long guns should be hung from fish hooks in his testicles and beat with steel ramrods. Just my opinion.
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Who ever decided the patented breech should be used in long guns should be hung from fish hooks in his testicles and beat with steel ramrods. Just my opinion.
Tell us how you really feel? :)
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Who ever decided the patented breech should be used in long guns should be hung from fish hooks in his testicles and beat with steel ramrods. Just my opinion.
smooth
Because we remove the barrels for cleaning, flushing/pumping water into and forcing it out again a number of times, cleaning a patent breech is no different that cleaning a flat breech plug with screw-in or drilled vent. It's just as easy and quickly accomplished.
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There are some new foam cleaning tips of various calibers that work well for oiling the patent breeches. They are like foam paint brushes. I use a 30 caliber foam tip that I put Barricade on to get to the patent breech for lubing and rust protection. When heading to the range, or before setting out for a hunt, I blow out the barrel from the nipple or touch hole liner (depending on the gun) with an air compressor, or if an air compressor is not available a blast or two from one of those co2 dischargers. I have never had a FTF when doing this for the past 3 years.
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I like the patent breech and find it no harder to clean than any other type. Just use water and flush/pump and the thing is clean. If a person thinks its too much work to clean his ml gun he should take up another sport. After cleaning I dry the bore and anti-chamber and use WD-40. Have done it that way since the late 60s and never had a problem.
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I'd rather not push the pins out of my full stock rifles every time I shoot them, maybe it doesn't hurt anything, but I figure sooner or later it's going to mess something up.
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I'd rather not push the pins out of my full stock rifles every time I shoot them, maybe it doesn't hurt anything, but I figure sooner or later it's going to mess something up.
May not mess something up as much as not getting your barrel really clean will, over time.- perhaps.
Seems the guys Taylor makes guns for, have no difficulty removing the pins and barrels to clean. Interesting.
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Do you remove the barrel every time you shoot. i sometimes shoot several times a week, sometimes every day. I'm not saying your wrong, but it seems to be unnecessary to remove the barrel 3-4 times a week. I just think a flat breech face would be a better idea. My daughters long rifle has a patented breech, and I don't see the advantage of it.
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Being able to get powder behind a dry ball is just one of the reasons I like the patent breech. Some people never dry ball but I sure do. :)
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For me, my patent breech rifles have hooked breeches - even the one with the 48" bl. and full stock. It has 4 keys holding the barrel on.
It's almost as easy to clean my pinned barrel (.36 Squirrel Rifle) as it is the long one - no wait - it's actually easier to clean, as the .36 only has a 38" bl.
If cleaning a barrel, I prefer to get it clean. I have used the plug the vent and pour water in, let it sit a bit, flush it out and repeat - however, actually removing the barrel and cleaning it as previously described, is faster than the vent-lugging, wiping, wiping, wiping wiping etc, etc until it's clean method.
As well, it only takes 4 or 5 patches to clean to bore spotlessly, dry and oil oil it. You KNOW it's clean with No residual fouling in any crack, crook or cranny, patent breech or flat.
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I only have one hook breech rifle, a caplock plains-hawken type, but the other four are flint long rifles with pinned barrels, I've gotten so used to cleaning them I kind of enjoy it,goes with the game I guess, Therapeutical I guess and I sure need that. I never thought about using the chamber in case of a dry ball, and I guess used it that way many years ago on my daughters rifle when I did just that. I'd like to say that was the only time I've ever run a dry ball down, but that would be a lie. Thanks guy's I learn something new every day , even though I'll probably forget by morning.