AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: cwbuff on May 20, 2017, 07:56:14 PM
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Hi, this is my first post. I'm trying to ID this rifle. The barrel is signed "J. Baer" and the lock is marked "Hodgson & Co". There are a few gunsmiths named "J. Baer". I don't know which one it is. I'm hoping I can narrow it down by the style of the rifle and that is why I am here. Any help is appreciated.
Regarding "J. Baer": In the book, "The Kentucky Rifle" by Dillin, published in 1924, under the section “Riflesmiths before 1840,” lists J. Baer of Lancaster, PA. as famed for straight cut rifles. The book “American Gun Makers” by L.D. Satterlee and Major Arcadi Gluckman, published in 1953 by the Stackpole Co. in Harrisburg, PA, including the Supplement of American Gun Makers, lists on page 11, BAER, J.— Lancaster, Pa., 1810-1840. Flintlock Kentucky rifles. The following entry appears in the book “The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle,” by Henry J. Kauffman. Under the section on biographies of Kentucky Rifle makers, on page 178, it lists John Baer of Chanceford Township, York County, Pennsylvania. Baer is also listed in the 1807 Census list for York County. The Kentucky Rifle Association references another John Baer of the Ohio School of Kentucky Rifle makers -- He was from Fulton County, Ohio.
Regarding "Hodgson & Co": Richard Hodgson is documented as having produced flintlocks for export and is listed on Bond Street in Birmingham England circa 1807 - 1811. A Hodgson & Co. importer and merchant is known to have operated in Baltimore, Maryland, circa 1780-1800. Hodgson gunsmiths are also identified as having been active from 1790-1835 in Ispwich, Suffolk, and around 1805 in London.
Here are some photos:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fn4Z0sa%2FDSC_0003.jpg&hash=e61f7e99aa8e0cc8048d914e153538ffa6c37207) (http://ibb.co/kXyRXa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkYkjJF%2FDSC_0004.jpg&hash=072ee76c8318a35fc2ec7622f7bbe219366a26bd) (http://ibb.co/c3UByF)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhioRXa%2FDSC_0006.jpg&hash=d21575ec8b360563d3dc78c261285a4b32a10196) (http://ibb.co/n7ttCa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbKVJdF%2FDSC_0007_1.jpg&hash=e46043f2bc3d7fbcfd4217f5b973d731a703ed4d) (http://ibb.co/d7XmXa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fhs40sa%2FDSC_0008.jpg&hash=c1030fad9cfcfe10e097f079a67e286618877321) (http://ibb.co/fSBPJF)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fky1PJF%2FDSC_0009.jpg&hash=1862d4fd9486c447973c41ad48b73415ef6c4367) (http://ibb.co/cOnaQv)
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PS: If anyone can tell what "school" this gun is from that would help. Thanks.
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I would start looking at the Lehigh Pennsylvania school, and surrounding area. I have an unmarked longrifle of similar style that has the same curious engraved lines bracketing the sights. Mine has a brass trigger, and the patchbox and sideplate are held in with small brass nails instead of screws. It is about .45 cal., and is a smoothbore.
Hungry Horse
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Thanks - I will look into that. Let's see what others may come up with. This kind of detective work is half the fun.
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Out of curiosity, does the wrist medallion have initials engraved running with the wrist instead of across the wrist?
Hungry Horse
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Out of curiosity, does the wrist medallion have initials engraved running with the wrist instead of across the wrist?
Hungry Horse
There are no initials on the wrist medallion.
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Northern Berks Co. near the Lehigh Co. line. Berks architecture & and patchbox. Sideplate and cheekpiece somewhat reminiscent of Jacob George or Stophel Long.
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Northern Berks Co. near the Lehigh Co. line. Berks architecture & and patchbox. Sideplate and cheekpiece somewhat reminiscent of Jacob George or Stophel Long.
Thanks - this is very interesting to me. I am used to evaluating guns that are mass-produced, not works of art.
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I'm with Lucky on this one. Leaning towards the style of Jacob George. I don't remember seeing this patch box design on a Stophel Long before . I'm not schooled on J. Baer's work but I'm guessing this might be a period restock using one of his barrel's . Jim
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I agree, one of the Georges.
Buck
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With the information that you all have posted, I started looking at rifles attributed to Jacob George. Even my novice eye can see a strong resemblance. Here are some more pics of my rifle that show some additional details. Is there anything unique to the muzzle decoration?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmmeBXa%2FDSC_0013.jpg&hash=643f5827596d5bcbe58291f24e9f060954abd925) (http://ibb.co/dJ7LQv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FckkUJF%2FDSC_0016.jpg&hash=b40f66b3f4d70c41281295fb0670f4fc8d726d12) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkW4BXa%2FDSC_0017.jpg&hash=62d16441d511dc3e08e6b43d1956ff0adf3f881f) (http://ibb.co/d3XLQv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgmMrXa%2FDSC_0018.jpg&hash=4d9c023003da88c28bf7eb7ae6a04d05763c87db) (http://ibb.co/e62LQv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiMRQsa%2FDSC_0024.jpg&hash=9f5e5355049c7c45ed2b232e71e148a0f73085fa) (http://ibb.co/dqe0Qv)
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The only think unique about the dots on the muzzle is there still there. A large percentage of rifles have been cut back from the muzzle end so you don't see the markings.
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I believe this gun was built by Baer, just as it states on the barrel. This is the first gun I have seen that displays many of the characteristics that are on my gun. The patchbox hinge is unusual in that it has only three sections with no knuckles on the lid. The barrel has twin lines engraved across the top flat on each side of the sights, and a propensity for using brass nails instead of screws. These characteristics are not present on guns by George, or Long.
A few differences that are yet to be resolved are the engraving style, and the lack of side wings on the patchbox on my gun. This might be because my gun is an earlier offering from this maker, or some work on guns marked Baer might have been done by apprentices.
After disassembling my gun in preparation for restoration, I found the barrel to be bright under the forearm, and the barrel marked by a known early barrel maker.
Hungry Horse
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So the question is which "J. Baer"
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I would say not a Baer from Lancaster. Your gun, and mine, show strong Lehigh styling, and no hint of Lancaster. Mine has a little fancier inlays, and some very nice piercings on the patchbox finial. And although the sideplate is imbelished with finer engraving, it is light sheet metal, not heavy plate, just like yours. My gun also has a fine English lock, with a roller on the mainspring, it was once flint, but was expertly converted in all likelihood by the original smith.
I am confident that when we find a J. Baer in or around the Lehigh area we will have our man. I am very excited to see your gun. I really never expected to see another gun by this maker.
Hungry Horse
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Here is some more information plus one more picture that I missed of the rear sight. The barrel is 43-1/4" in length. The bore is rifled with 7 grooves and measures .50 cal (0.499").
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FckPTTF%2FDSC_0007.jpg&hash=9e243a57756be07163df4dd7f1c9a0e433107b0e) (http://ibb.co/ct7RFv)
temporary image share (http://imgbb.com/)
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Is the barrel straight, or slightly tapered? Mine is tapered, and about the length of yours. I thought it might have originally been swamped, but now seeing yours makes me think it was just tapered.
Hungry Horse
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Is the barrel straight, or slightly tapered? Mine is tapered, and about the length of yours. I thought it might have originally been swamped, but now seeing yours makes me think it was just tapered.
Hungry Horse
Measured flat-to-flat, it is 0.93" just in front of the lock and is 0.87" at the muzzle. So very slightly tapered, but not noticeable to the eye.
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Another oddity that my gun has is the barrel lugs are made of thin folded brass sheet metal. The dovetails that they fit into are so shallow that over time the forearm shrunk, and literally pulled the lugs out of the dovetails. This allowed the forearm to move around enough that the edges of the upper forearm broke off in several places. The forearm of my gun is very thin. The barrel lug are inletted clear through into the ramrod channel, and shrinkage has caused cracks that run the full length of the forearm in the ramrod channel.
Hungry Horse
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My barrel is marked I. Scholb on the bottom flat at the breech. I've been told this is a known barrel maker.
The Baer family appeared to be primarily involved in large farming operations in, and around Lehigh county Pennsylvania. They were married into several prominent families, some with ties to prominent gunsmiths in the area. There are many family members with the first initial "J". I suspect that one of these J. Baer farmers, also made guns as a sideline. A couple of them were also listed as blacksmiths which might help narrow the field.
Hungry Horse
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Another oddity that my gun has is the barrel lugs are made of thin folded brass sheet metal. The dovetails that they fit into are so shallow that over time the forearm shrunk, and literally pulled the lugs out of the dovetails. This allowed the forearm to move around enough that the edges of the upper forearm broke off in several places. The forearm of my gun is very thin. The barrel lug are inletted clear through into the ramrod channel, and shrinkage has caused cracks that run the full length of the forearm in the ramrod channel.
Hungry Horse
I have not disassembled my rifle, so I don't know about the dovetails. But I did pull the ramrod and can see the folded brass sheetmetal tenons protruding into the ramrod channel.
PS: How common is using folded brass sheetmetal as a barrel attachment technique?
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My barrel is marked I. Scholb on the bottom flat at the breech. I've been told this is a known barrel maker.
The Baer family appeared to be primarily involved in large farming operations in, and around Lehigh county Pennsylvania. They were married into several prominent families, some with ties to prominent gunsmiths in the area. There are many family members with the first initial "J". I suspect that one of these J. Baer farmers, also made guns as a sideline. A couple of them were also listed as blacksmiths which might help narrow the field.
Hungry Horse
I also found a few members of the Baer family in Lehigh County. My wife is German, so one also needs to look for the original German spelling of "Baer" as "Bär", which you will also find.
Here is some info on the Baer family: http://www.berks.pa-roots.com/books/montgomery/b02.html (http://www.berks.pa-roots.com/books/montgomery/b02.html)
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The genealogy I read said the Baer family did indeed originally spell their name Bar, but without the fancy punctuation. It said they were Swiss.
I have never seen barrel lugs made from such thin brass stock. I also have never seen dovetails cut this shallow. It would be interesting to know what they used to accomplish this.
Hungry Horse
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I just noticed that my rifle also has a prayer hole in the bottom of the patch box up under the finial. How common are these?
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My gun saw very little service as a percussion gun, in my opinion. There is very little cap erosion on the barrel, and almost none on the lock. The hammer face isn't eaten away either. Mine, although it suffering from what I would call closet wear doesn't seem to show the type of damage you see from hard use. Being in California, we see what the trip across the prairies, and carving out a new life can do to a gun. Much of the original varnish is still on the stock.
Hungry Horse
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My barrel is marked I. Scholb on the bottom flat at the breech. I've been told this is a known barrel maker.
The Baer family appeared to be primarily involved in large farming operations in, and around Lehigh county Pennsylvania. They were married into several prominent families, some with ties to prominent gunsmiths in the area. There are many family members with the first initial "J". I suspect that one of these J. Baer farmers, also made guns as a sideline. A couple of them were also listed as blacksmiths which might help narrow the field.
Hungry Horse
This article (http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B016_Milliman.pdf (http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B016_Milliman.pdf)), which you may have seen, identifies I. Scholb as one of the finest barrel makers of the 1780-1815 period. Look at the bottom of page 15-26.
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Can anyone determine from the pictures I posted what kind of wood the stock is made from?
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From the pictures yours looks like maple. Mine is a quite nice piece of curly maple, which is partially responsible for the damage on the forearm. Age, and rough handling, have caused the very thin forearm to crack along the grain.
I can't tell you how excited I am to have the name of the likely builder of my gun. I would still like to narrow down which Baer actually built my gun, and if yours, and mine, were built by the same person, or another family member.
Obviously the workmanship on both these guns is not crude, so it is likely the craftsman built guns regularly. Who knows how many of these fine guns are languishing away in collections, or closets, undiscovered.
Hungry Horse
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I live in Virginia, but grew up in Ohio. I used to go to Log Cabin Sport Shop in Lodi to buy black powder. This is Kindig's shop. I will have to look into talking to those folks to see what they know on my next trip back. I used to be a member of the Forks of the Delaware Show in Allentown. I have not been back there in years. If I had a reason to head up there (like a museum or another place where I could talk to folks), I would go back there.
I spend a lot on time on genealogy research. The old records are loaded with conflicting information - especially various spellings.
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With the I Scholb mark as the barrel maker that sure narrows the whole gun down to Eastern Pa. ( stock design, furniture and barrel ) . I found reference to Jacob Bear as coming from Lancaster to Union Township , Berks County in 1779. In the old records spelling sometimes gets turned around. It might be something to look into. " Arms Makers of Pennsylvania " by Jim Whisker.
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With the I Scholb mark as the barrel maker that sure narrows the whole gun down to Eastern Pa. ( stock design, furniture and barrel ) . I found reference to Jacob Bear as coming from Lancaster to Union Township , Berks County in 1779. In the old records spelling sometimes gets turned around. It might be something to look into. " Arms Makers of Pennsylvania " by Jim Whisker.
Thanks - that is interesting.
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I started exploring any connections to Jacob George -- thinking that maybe "J. Baer" worked with Jacob George. There is a gunsmith named Jacob George buried in the New Jerusalem (Dunkle's) Church cemetery in Greenwich Township, Berks County. I don't know if he is the same one whose work is very similar to the work on my rifle. Then I did some research at the Berks County Church Record lookup website (http://www.berkshistory.org/library/church-record-index/ (http://www.berkshistory.org/library/church-record-index/). There are many records that would match "J. Baer". But interestingly enough, two records show up from the New Jerusalem (Dunkle's) Church (circa 1753-1882) for a "John Baer" and a "Joel Baer". Could this be the connection?
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I did a little more research on possibilities for "J. Bear". Here are 3 interesting finds of soldiers of the American Revolution. This does not indicate they are gunsmiths or gunmakers, but it does establish a connection to use of firearms in the right time frame.
1) Jacob Baer - a private in Captain Edelman's Company, 4th Battalion, Northampton County Militia.
2) John Baer - Class 6 in 8th Co. of Capt. Frederick Kuntz, Lehigh Township, Northampton County Militia, May the 2, 1781
3) Jf'hn Baer and Peter Baer - in Capt. Adam Staller's Company, Northampton County Militia OCT. 3TH. 1781. (c.)
I don't know if "Jj'hn" is an abbreviation or an OCR error by Google. If the latter, it could be "John," which could be the same person as #1 having changed companies, or a different "John Baer."
I also found reference to a "Baer Valley" near Seipsville, Weisenberg Twp., Lehigh Co. So many of the Baer family lived there that the locals called it the "Baer Valley." This is adjacent to the Berks County line.