AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: OldMtnMan on June 22, 2017, 11:46:03 PM
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In the near future i'm going to have this gun built for me. Your thoughts good or bad? I'm going to pick the Colerain .58 barrel. Good choice?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/623/1/KIT-KIT-CARSON-HAWKEN-LEFT-HAND
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Pete - should be just fine, however, much depends on the powder charges you will be using, whether or not the hooked butt plate is going to be hard on the body. The heavier the better if using heavier charges for say, elk or moose.
1" seems to me to be quite small for anything larger than a .54. what will it weigh? I did not see a weight suggested, but 36" of barrel should help that out a bit.
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I think I'd make it right handed. It will have better resale value than a left handed gun, and they both handle the same.
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Maybe Mike, but i'm blind in my right eye and learned to shoot left handed. This is a gun i've wanted since 1980. Not this one specifically, but an authentic Hawken. I have no plans of ever selling it and i'm going to will it to a friend when I check out.
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Here's the barrel weights Daryl. Would Colerain make a barrel that wasn't safe?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/623/1/KIT-KIT-CARSON-HAWKEN-LEFT-HAND/List
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I sent an email to Colerain and asked him if the barrel has a max charge. We'll see if it's enough for what I want.
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;D ;D... John Bergman is still building rifles here in Tennessee..... Just get him to duplicate this one .......
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I will use a Track Hawken parts set in the future.
I like Track, they are easy to work with if something unexpected comes up.
That said, let the builder source what ever parts he wants to use. Tell him what you want the end product to be and let him do it his way. IF you give him a box of stuff, it may not be what he wants to use. Speaking as a builder, making due with parts you don't like is very frustrating.
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The builder has looked at the kit and seems ok with the parts supplied, but he can add or delete as he pleases.
I also heard back from Scott at Colerain and said the barrel is what he uses for hunting and uses 100gr. That's what I had in mind to use. I'm a still hunter, so my shots are always pretty close. I also won't take anything but a double lung shot, or I pass on the shot. A 100gr of Swiss and a 270gr ball should work fine at my distance.
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Thinking Daryl's talking weight of barrel helping tame the recoil when shooting heavy loads.Should be plenty of barrel wall with a 1" barrel in .58 Cal.
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Thinking Daryl's talking weight of barrel helping tame the recoil when shooting heavy loads.Should be plenty of barrel wall with a 1" barrel in .58 Cal.
Spot-on, Joe S., but 100gr. is a light charge and doesn't even kick (much) in my little 1863 Enfield, but then, it has a real butt plate, not a hook with points. ;)
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Hook is what holds up the heavy barrel if you know where to put it. ;)
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Daryl: my go to load in my .62 cal Hawken is 127 gr. with 350 gr. ball...don't even feel the recoil. But my rifle weighs 11 1/2 pounds.
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I built this parts set in .54 caliber a year and a half ago. See Gun Building, Herb's Post 145 (my page 6 of posts) January 04, 2016 "I Built a Left-Handed T.O.W. Kit Carson Hawken over the Weekend". Just click on my name here and a box will come up that says "show posts". Click on that and my stuff comes up. That stock is cut with a 14 1/2" length of pull, which is ridiculous. I built this rifle for Bob, who is 6' 2" tall with a 36 or 38" sleeve length, and we had to cut the stock to 13.5 " pull for him, if I remember correctly. He wanted the barrel left at 36". There is a photo of the cut off stock on my post 47, January 08, 2017 "Re: another Hawken done- a Kit Carson". I made a .58 flint halfstock as my elk hunting rifle and killed a mule deer with it. Think I used 100 grains of Olde Eynsford 2F. I have shot my Hawkens many hundreds of times with loads of 50 to 140 grains of powder and never been bothered by the Hawken butt plates.
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If you really wanted an authentic Hawken replicated you can probably do better. But at the same time you could do worse. With that parts kit the builder can get it pretty close with extra work.
If you want a true authentic Hawken replicated, I'd seek a builder that knows the ins and outs of Hawken rifles and commission them to build me one...(there are a few on this very site)
If you aren't picky, then any capable builder can probably finish that parts kits and turn out a rifle that is similar to a Hawken. Just depends what you want and how much you want to spend. I'd imagine it's easier for a builder to replicate a Hawken by not starting with a parts kit and precarved semi-inletted stock.
Just my penny towards the conversation. Good luck!
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If you really wanted an authentic Hawken replicated you can probably do better. But at the same time you could do worse. With that parts kit the builder can get it pretty close with extra work.
If you want a true authentic Hawken replicated, I'd seek a builder that knows the ins and outs of Hawken rifles and commission them to build me one...(there are a few on this very site)
If you aren't picky, then any capable builder can probably finish that parts kits and turn out a rifle that is similar to a Hawken. Just depends what you want and how much you want to spend. I'd imagine it's easier for a builder to replicate a Hawken by not starting with a parts kit and precarved semi-inletted stock.
Just my penny towards the conversation. Good luck!
I don't think authenticity makes much difference if you're going to build a left handed version.
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Whats with the left-handed impaired hate ??? ;D ;D
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Whats with the left-handed impaired hate ??? ;D ;D
Sounds pure hateful doesn't it.... :P I'm right handed and can shoot left handed guns with no problem. I know everybody says" I'll be keeping this gun fore ever" but, that never is the case. At the very least your widow is going to get stuck peddling a hard to sell left handed Hawken that just won't bring what a right handed gun will. But, do what ever you like, it's your reality.
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Perhaps he would want to get buried with it.Might be only right handed loaners in the rack on the happy hunting grounds ;)
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I'm single. I really don't care what happens to the gun when i'm gone, but I do plan to leave it to a friend.
I'm friends with Buck Conner who was involved with Green River guns and is still with the new GR guns being made now. He recommended the kit to me.
I would have preferred the Bridger version with the 33 1/2" barrel, but I like the idea of a LH version. The way I understand it. Hawken would have made about anything a customer wanted. Who would bet their life on the fact Hawken never made a LH gun?
Either way that's what I want. I'm tired of shooting RH guns. I'm not going to build it to satisfy the next owner.
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Herb..........Actually, a 14 1/2" LOP is what I use on all my guns. That's good news to hear that's what that kit uses. Any shorter and my thumb is against my nose.
I'll check out your build later. I've got to take the pooch for a run now.
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Stock crawler?
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I'm single. I really don't care what happens to the gun when i'm gone, but I do plan to leave it to a friend.
I'm friends with Buck Conner who was involved with Green River guns and is still with the new GR guns being made now. He recommended the kit to me.
I would have preferred the Bridger version with the 33 1/2" barrel, but I like the idea of a LH version. The way I understand it. Hawken would have made about anything a customer wanted. Who would bet their life on the fact Hawken never made a LH gun?
Either way that's what I want. I'm tired of shooting RH guns. I'm not going to build it to satisfy the next owner.
Yep, I understand. If you're going to go through all the trouble to build it do it the way you want.
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Go for it. I'd personally favor a .54 if I expected any longer range shots. It takes a hefty load to flatten the trajectory on a .58. Maybe not a problem on larger game.
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Stock crawler?
Maybe, but i've never found a long sleeve shirt that had sleeves long enough. Probably a combination of a crawling and arms like a gorilla. I just know a shorter LOP never feels good to me.
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Go for it. I'd personally favor a .54 if I expected any longer range shots. It takes a hefty load to flatten the trajectory on a .58. Maybe not a problem on larger game.
You might be right. I've never owned a .58 and thought this was a good chance to get one. With my vision and open sights. 75 yds would be a long long shot for me.
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OldMtnMan
I think if you bet your life that Hawken never made a left handed rifle, your time would be short. LP
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OldMtnMan
I think if you bet your life that Hawken never made a left handed rifle, your time would be short. LP
Do you know something about one being built?
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OldMtnMan
I think if you bet your life that Hawken never made a left handed rifle, your time would be short. LP
Do you know something about one being built?
There was supposedly a LH Hawken in a museum in Michigan that was destroyed in a fire.
It was said to have a back action lock. If there was such a creature it may have been a
Hawken marked barrel used in a restocking job.I think the name of the establishment
was The Military Inn.
Bob Roller
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I have seen one full stock. LP
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I have seen one full stock. LP
Made my day if it was made by Hawken.
Originally, I was going to have the new green river make a LH stock on a RH lock, but when Buck pointed me to the TOW LH kit I decided to go with it.
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Stock crawler?
Maybe, but i've never found a long sleeve shirt that had sleeves long enough. Probably a combination of a crawling and arms like a gorilla. I just know a shorter LOP never feels good to me.
You won't have any problems with it Pete! Go for it!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8294/29163627182_b763a35665_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj)Muzzle Loading Rifles (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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As long as we are in the Hawken mode,my wife has been cleaning out drawers and storage
areas of end tables and found pictures I took 50 years ago of the first Hawken match at
the primitive range in Friendship Ind.They are in what passed for color in those long ago
days. My favorite was Tom Dawson shooting his superb copy of the Modena (Medina?)
Hawken at the instant of discharge. Looked like the recoil of an African big game rifle.
I won third place with it shooting 130 yards off hand and my first shot was an X center.
Fine times,friends and rifles + memories of those like Tom who are no longer here.
Bob Roller
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Post up the pictures Bob. What can be better than a Hawken shoot?
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Post up the pictures Bob. What can be better than a Hawken shoot?
Maybe a John & Joe Manton shoot. :)
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Ok, that too. :)
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Post up the pictures Bob. What can be better than a Hawken shoot?
I have no way to post them.They are pictures taken probably with a camera using 127
film.
Bob Roller
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If you could lay then on a table and take individual pictures with a phone, then upload them to your computer, then to a photo site, then to here. Sounds easy, eh? If you could take pictures and mail them to Taylor or I, we will post them.
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You could take them to an office supply outfit and have them scanned.
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After some research, it seems Carsons gun did have a 31" barrel. I'm going tot go with it. My lower back will thank me for not having to hold up a 36" barrel.
I'm not going for the short LOP Carson had though. He was only 5'2". I'm a foot taller.
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You will not regret bobbing the barrel...if I build another one for m'self, it will not be a full length 36" bbl. Too muzzle heavy for a senior.
T.
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So true. We have to do what we have to do to keep going. I don't want to have to use sticks to shoot the gun. I love offhand shooting and hunting. I'll be able to with the shorter barrel.
Even Bridger who looks a lot bigger only had a 33 1/2" barrel and i'm sure he wasn't shooting it at my age.
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That's a good looking rifle and it will be yours so pick what you want and run with it.
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You will not regret bobbing the barrel...if I build another one for m'self, it will not be a full length 36" bbl. Too muzzle heavy for a senior.
T.
The halfstock and hopefully English style flintlock I have started has a 33" barrel now.
It's a GM 50 caliber and 1 inch across the flats.
Is a senior citizen someone from Mexico or is it a geezer from Canada or the USA? ;D
Bob Roller
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Yes!
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I am currenlty scratch building a representative late hawken. After studying Hawkens for some time, as far a "authentic" goes I have formed some opinions, probably wrong but here goes. Orignial rifles varied quite a bit. If you want a copy of some particular original, then copy it. That will be difficult to do without out actually taking the original apart. The ability to examine an original close enough to truely copy it is not for most of us.
Modern parts sets rely heavily on castings, casting were not used to that extent on originals. If you get too spun up over some parrticular detail it may bog you down to actually building the thing. For instance, the crook in the toe line of Kit Carson's rifle. To me it makes no sense other than a construction error on the original. Maybe they did the more than not, I have no idea. But if you want a copy of that rifle it needs to be there. But how can you copy sometthing you never touched? Modern locks and hammers are only close. Trigger guards vary. Nose caps are difficult to get right. Wedge locations may not be what you want. It goes on and on. I say just build one that has representatinve features and enjoy it.
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Nobody will be picking it apart. It only has to satisfy me. I shoot alone. I hunt alone. I'll be handling the gun alone.
I'm using what Doc White says about Hawkens. He did have Bridgers gun for 3 years and measured everything when he took it apart. I'm not so much copying one particular gun as much as a general Hawken built gun. After all I am building a LH gun, so it would be kind of special to have Hawken build it back then.
If I would have had Hawken build it back then and I was young and strong it would have a long barrel. Had I been an old @$#% like I am now with a beat up back i'd ask for a short barrel. So, i'm building what I would have asked for back then.
Make sense?
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Nobody will be picking it apart. It only has to satisfy me. I shoot alone. I hunt alone. I'll be handling the gun alone.
I'm using what Doc White says about Hawkens. He did have Bridgers gun for 3 years and measured everything when he took it apart. I'm not so much copying one particular gun as much as a general Hawken built gun. After all I am building a LH gun, so it would be kind of special to have Hawken build it back then.
If I would have had Hawken build it back then and I was young and strong it would have a long barrel. Had I been an old @$#% like I am now with a beat up back i'd ask for a short barrel. So, i'm building what I would have asked for back then.
Make sense?
Can't wait to see the finished product! And have it built the way you want it. I might have missed it but will it be fullstock or half?
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Daryl: my go to load in my .62 cal Hawken is 127 gr. with 350 gr. ball...don't even feel the recoil. But my rifle weighs 11 1/2 pounds.
Exactly Taylor, it's 11 1/2 pounds
But then, my .69 barely kicks with 165gr. with 480gr. ball and it's only 9 1/2 pounds - wide English Butt plate, though. It does climb up out of battery a bit, though. ;)
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The recoil of the 69 caliber flintlock "Hawken" that was made for John Baird
was not a hard kicker. 160 grains of 2eg and patched ball.I fired it and it wasn't
half as violent as Tom Dawson's Modena copy with 150 grains.Every one of the
people that were involved in making that rifle of Baird's shot it once. I made the triggers.
Bob Roller
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You guys hunting for cape buffalo?
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Some day, hopefully, but more likely water buffalo and scrub bulls in Australia.
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Meanwhile, what are you using those loads on?
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I practice with the same loads I use for hunting, in all my guns, which, btw - are the most accurate loads in my rifles - except for the .69. I only use the heavy load, 140 or 165gr. when shooting long range- past 100 meters. The heavy charges are a mite 'wearing' on an old body.
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I could never take that recoil. I had skin cancer removed from my cheek and it left it really sensitive. That's why I only shoot 80gr of 2F for elk in a .54. It seems to be enough to get the job done. It also shoots good groups.
I've been rethinking about the .58 in the Hawken build. I might stay with the .54 since it will be my elk gun. Plus, it's a rough copy of the Kit Carson gun and that was a .54.
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.54 is a good calibre and one I might have at some point in the future as a hunting rifle.
I witnessed a shot on a moose,. had I been the guide, I would not have permitted it, that landed perfectly, driven by 100gr. of phony powder. The range was 170yards. The ball coursed straight across punching lung, the heart, the other lung and stopping on the hide after punching through a rib. Those ribs are almost 1/2" thick, some over that, depending where & which one. The moose took off like a race horse out of a starting gate, dropping dead mid-stride after 40 yards - about a 4 second dash. I guess the .54 had enough punch for a killing shot, however the placement could not have been more perfect. The hunter was exceptionally lucky as he was not a good shot, imho.
For those who think foot pounds of energy is killing power, that ball had about 200 fpe at impact - less than a .38spl. 158gr. RN factory load from the 60's.
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.54 is a good calibre and one I might have at some point in the future as a hunting rifle.
I witnessed a shot on a moose,. had I been the guide, I would not have permitted it, that landed perfectly, driven by 100gr. of phony powder. The range was 170yards. The ball coursed straight across punching lung, the heart, the other lung and stopping on the hide after punching through a rib. Those ribs are almost 1/2" thick, some over that, depending where & which one. The moose took off like a race horse out of a starting gate, dropping dead mid-stride after 40 yards - about a 4 second dash. I guess the .54 had enough punch for a killing shot, however the placement could not have been more perfect. The hunter was exceptionally lucky as he was not a good shot, imho.
For those who think foot pounds of energy is killing power, that ball had about 200 fpe at impact - less than a .38spl. 158gr. RN factory load from the 60's.
170 yards is way too far for hunting with a RB in a ML with open iron sights.
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I agree, Mike. The guide should not have allowed the shot. The hunter was not capable of making it, without an incredible amount of luck. I can only surmise it was that Moose's "time".
The point being, a large calibre round ball is VERY effective if landed correctly.
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The way I understand it. Hawken would have made about anything a customer wanted. Who would bet their life on the fact Hawken never made a LH gun?
This is not any left handed hate here, but this is where an understanding of history comes in handy. Not so long ago, in the grand scheme of things, being left handed was not considered to be a good thing. Great pains were taken to make those that naturally were indeed left handed to use their right hand, to include writing with the non-naturally dominant hand. Couple this with an era preference to care about one's public persona, and you will come to understand that while The Hawken Brothers would indeed build a gun how you wanted it, no one would want a gun that publicly displayed something that was considered to be deficient. No one living could ever say with 100% certainty that a left handed gun was ever built or not, but it can be said with a good bit of probability that it was unlikely and if so, very, very, very rare.
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Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?
Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.
btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.
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There always has been a LH bias that continues to exist to this day. Being a natural left eye dominant person and a totally LH person by birth I have seen a lot of this bias. Oftentimes the offending person doesn't see him/herself as being bias as what they say or do makes perfect sense from a RH point of view.
If I had lived anytime from 1700 to 1900 and had the funds to purchase a new rifle and the independence to ignore the general opinions, I would have insisted the chosen gunsmith to build me a LH rifle. Now I might be forced to concede a LH lock due to availability, but I would still want cast off (or cast on) and a LH cheekpiece, I would at least have a rifle that fit me, and not so hard to make either. Or I would find a gun maker who would accomadate my wishes.
I was lucky to be born to a family who didn't view being LH as a disadvantage. My father was left handed and in his youth was a splendid athlete, he was also a part time SP in Honolulu during the war and as his scars prove was in his share of scraps. He said his best advantage was being lefthanded and knowing how to hide it until needed.
My father and uncles and older cousins tried to develop the benefits of being lefthanded. They taught me to shoot, to box and to hit a baseball, and to throw curves and fastballs all lefthanded.
The legibility of my hand writing suffers because of teachers interference and bias. And this started a long time ago for me so I've seen a good bit of it.
My father in law is heavily biased, he is left eye dominant, insists on aiming with his right eye and can't hit the broadside of a barn. I've coached too many LH kids who's parents insisted their child bat and throw right handed. Kids who had real ability and potential but ended up quitting because they couldn't hit or throw.
I agree with OldMtnMan on this and I appreciate those who offer LH'd kits like Jim Chambers, Track of the Wolf and others. I've built 2 LH longrifles and I couldn't care less if anybody built a couple in 1776.
I would like to see more variety instead of the same thing that's sold today. And it seems all discussion about those Numerical Control rifles are rightsided only. And seeing the list of new rifles and those being considered, yeah, I think all Left Handers are being slighted.
Feels good to get a rant off my chest.
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Good point's when I was growing up(ok maybe I haven't) I started writing left handed an was taught that wasn't the way. Right handed was correct.
Well fast forward an I shoot right or left. It works wonders when a deer comes out the wrong side of the tree.
My dominant eye is my left. Oldtravler
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Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?
Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.
btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.
Oh you mean this post (which I read BTW)
"There was supposedly a LH Hawken in a museum in Michigan that was destroyed in a fire.
It was said to have a back action lock. If there was such a creature it may have been a
Hawken marked barrel used in a restocking job. I think the name of the establishment
was The Military Inn.
Bob Roller"
Look real carefully at the bolded and underlined parts. I'm not saying you can't build a lefty rifle, or that you shouldn't. Just do it because you want to and stop with the "what ifs" and "maybe could ofs". I am one of those rare types that can shoot just as well either handed, and have yet to see any disadvantage to shooting a righty rifle lefty.
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Good point's when I was growing up(ok maybe I haven't) I started writing left handed an was taught that wasn't the way. Right handed was correct.
Well fast forward an I shoot right or left. It works wonders when a deer comes out the wrong side of the tree.
My dominant eye is my left. Oldtravler
Sometime before 1962 I made a LH half stock percussion rifle for Bob Bartee who was
my barber for years.It was 45 caliber,walnut,silver guard and butt plate,single trigger
and it was used by him until he passed away years later.I have tried to find it but it
seems to have vanished.
Our first born son showed symptoms of being left handed and we did NOTHING to discourage
it.The ONLY options are LEFT and RIGHT the last time we looked.Turns out he was ambidexterous
and demonstrated that with a modern 45 auto that holds 14 shots.Still is as far as we know.
One local idiot said he'd rather have a cross eyed son than a left handed one and I told him
I thought he was stupid but by saying that he had removed all doubt.
Bob Roller
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Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?
Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.
btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.
Oh you mean this post (which I read BTW)
"There was supposedly a LH Hawken in a museum in Michigan that was destroyed in a fire.
It was said to have a back action lock. If there was such a creature it may have been a
Hawken marked barrel used in a restocking job. I think the name of the establishment
was The Military Inn.
Bob Roller"
Look real carefully at the bolded and underlined parts. I'm not saying you can't build a lefty rifle, or that you shouldn't. Just do it because you want to and stop with the "what ifs" and "maybe could ofs". I am one of those rare types that can shoot just as well either handed, and have yet to see any disadvantage to shooting a righty rifle lefty.
Since you haven't seen every Hawken that was ever built. You don't know either. No matter anyway. I'm building a LH version and will call it a copy of a Hawken. If that annoys you it's on you, not me.
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Since you haven't seen every Hawken that was ever built. You don't know either.
Wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that. ;)
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I know Mike. I have too, but it's a good line. :)
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Is it worthwhile to start a new topic on which if any left handed rifles are historically accurate? Seems to be the main focus now here. We can split it out if you like.
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Is it worthwhile to start a new topic on which if any left handed rifles are historically accurate? Seems to be the main focus now here. We can split it out if you like.
I personally heard the late Tom Dawson say "The best any of us will do is to make a representative
type"and he included himself in that group.Anyone building a personal hunting rifle should make it
to what ever configuration wanted or needed.If it's left handed,so be it.I have made a few LH locks for
these in past years and saw nothing wrong with them.
My late father in law had Tom Dawson build him a late S.Hawken style rifle in .45 caliber for a 400
grain bullet.Bill Large custom barrel,my lock and triggers.
Sid Estep made an exact copy of a Hawken according to the dimensions on the Robideaux prints
and it was superbly accurate .His father thought the crescent butt plate was an abomination and
Sid made one for him with a shotgun butt plate and he hunted with it until he passed away.
Sid was and is a superb machinist and in the mid 1970's I showed him how to make locks and
triggers and he did a good job but couldn't get a good start in the market even with my help so
he quit.He also made a few very fine butt plates as well for the Hawken.
Bob Roller
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Pete - should be just fine, however, much depends on the powder charges you will be using, whether or not the hooked butt plate is going to be hard on the body. The heavier the better if using heavier charges for say, elk or moose.
1" seems to me to be quite small for anything larger than a .54. what will it weigh? I did not see a weight suggested, but 36" of barrel should help that out a bit.
When Bill Large got his shop operational in 1958 he made a 1"x33" 58 caliber barrel and gave it to me.
I made an offhand gun from it and it won a major event in Ohio in the hands of a friend that I loaned it to.
It was a 1 in 44 twist with 8 grooves and used 65 grains of DuPont 3fg and a patched .575 ball and was
a tack driver. This was all before pouring a half can of powder down a barrel,late 50's,early 60's.
Bob Roller
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The "left hand vs right hand" debate definitely testifies to a continuing predominance of goods made for the right handed. I am, at least for vast majority of my years, right handed. As a kid I shot my BB guns and bows & arrows left handed. Really can't recall when I switched but I do recall it took a bit of time and effort. I'm right eye dominant; but the vision in my right eye - even after cataract surgery - is still not as good as my left eye. Years ago I shot at least as well with handguns using my left hand as I did with my right. Deer hunting I've killed deer with left hand shots when they appeared far to the right or when I couldn't re-position myself. I'm right handed but still can do certain things better with the left. As a boxer I could fight southpaw just as comfortably/skillfully as orthodox; that made me a good sparring partner for ringers. I wouldn't even try and go back to predominantly left hand shooting as it's too much trouble and hard to find suitable equipment.
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I wish I was that way. I'm very dominant right handed in all I do. It took me awhile to get used to shooting left handed, but I had no choice. I wasn't going to give up shooting/hunting.
I bet I shouldered a rifle left handed 5000 times before even taking my first shot.
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When I lost the use of my right eye about 15 years ago I determined to learn to shoot lefty, after better than 40 years of shooting righty. Had a heck of a time so I rigged one of my unerhammers to be shot righty with my left eye while I kept practicing. I now have 4 leftys that I shoot and haven't looked back.
Mark
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I agree, Mike. The guide should not have allowed the shot. The hunter was not capable of making it, without an incredible amount of luck. I can only surmise it was that Moose's "time".
The point being, a large calibre round ball is VERY effective if landed correctly.
I think it was Col.Charles Askins that said he preferred to get so close that he had to take a few steps
back to get the rifle in position to fire..I think the article was called "Good hunters don't make long shots".
Incredible luck was the key here on that shot. I would not have made it even with a Whitworth or some similar rifle.
Bob Roller
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"Good hunters don't make long shots".
I've been saying that forever. I get so much flak from the CF hunters i'm surprised I haven't been hung by now.
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I sure would like to see a few pics of your Hawken after you get it.
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Either way that's what I want. I'm tired of shooting RH guns. I'm not going to build it to satisfy the next owner.
I agree With all of my heart. The Lock on the wrong side for lefthanders is awkard when it comes to priming for a quick shot. But the big problem is the cheek piece on the wrong side and castoff instead of cast on. I 'd never make a rigth hand rifle for myself.
Pistols I can live With the Lock on the wrong side. The rest of the Stock shape is identical for rigth hand and lefthand Versions.
Best regards
Rolf
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I say its your rifle and build it your way.I'm left handed my self and can and do use right handed rifles.Used plenty of right handed modern rifles,never needed/a second shot so reloading was never an issue.Rolf brings up the best point and that's the cheek and cast off.When I finally decided to build my own rifle I made the decision to build it for me,left handed.
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Like some judge is going to say, "Its a left handed Hawken can't use it. Hawken rifles were all built for right handers."
WHAT!!!!! ???
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Somewhere I have a picture of an origial left hand Hawken that a member used to shoot at the Gemmer Club in St Louis back in the 1960 era
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You mean to tell me there where left hand impaired folk way back then and somebody would actually build them a gun with the lock on the wrong side too.Perhaps with all the scientific research they will find a cure soon :o
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Pete - should be just fine, however, much depends on the powder charges you will be using, whether or not the hooked butt plate is going to be hard on the body. The heavier the better if using heavier charges for say, elk or moose.
1" seems to me to be quite small for anything larger than a .54. what will it weigh? I did not see a weight suggested, but 36" of barrel should help that out a bit.
The last rifle I built was in 2008. It was a "work in progress" when I got it.
It was a GM barrel,58 caliber and 1" across the flats. I shot it with 80 grains of
GOEX 3fg and a tight loaded .575 ball with striped pillow cloth patch and I got
good results at 260 yards shooting offhand at clay discs the shotgunners left around
after their Tuesday shoot.50 yards from a rest was a one ragged hole group.
I styled it after a Swiss "Stutzer" from 1805 cutting the barrel to 36" from 40"
Butt plate was almost flat and all steel trim and a Ketland lock that I made from
parts I had in a desk drawer for about 35 years.
Bob Roller
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No way Joe, that lefty is non PC and will get tossed in a heartbeat. :) ;)
I thought I heard it all, but you never know.
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You mean to tell me there where left hand impaired folk way back then and somebody would actually build them a gun with the lock on the wrong side too.Perhaps with all the scientific research they will find a cure soon :o
Don't worry about PC or anything else. Build what ever you are capable of and enjoy the end result.
I remember a controversy about left hand rifles and while they are not common they did exist.
Don Stith's statement tells me at least ONE was made and might not have been recorded in the Hawken
Shop list of work or showed up on a work order if such a thing was used then.
The "Impairment" is with those that get their shirts in a knot over NOTHING.
Bob Roller
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I shoot right handed. I have shot left handed guns a bunch, even guns with locks on BOTH sides. Never found a problem with any of them. Ever try and sell a left handed gun for what the same thing a right handed version would sell for? Now that's where you'll run into trouble...I found out years ago most lefties are broke...... :P
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It would be real interesting to see a original left handed Hawken come up for sale.I wonder if it would sell for less than its right handed counterpart.
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It would be real interesting to see a original left handed Hawken come up for sale.I wonder if it would sell for less than its right handed counterpart.
Bound to be worth less if it's a lefty. ;D
Bob Roller
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhviUX5%2F26971640784_2fed048044_b.jpg&hash=a0c54aa6427e3eaf074127a9d75bbc3e9d0b368c) (http://ibb.co/fVruzk)
Heres a lefty for you guys. GRRW 54 caliber. No its not an original but its a lefty and one heck of a shooting one at that. Al
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhviUX5%2F26971640784_2fed048044_b.jpg&hash=a0c54aa6427e3eaf074127a9d75bbc3e9d0b368c) (http://ibb.co/fVruzk)
Heres a lefty for you guys. GRRW 54 caliber. No its not an original but its a lefty and one heck of a shooting one at that. Al
Looks good and if it shoots as well as it looks then who is to say NAY??
It satisfies a need for someone who wanted it.
Bob Roller
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I have 3 LH **** guns and 2 LH Flintlocks. I recently sold an older LH Flint and got all my money back. The buyer wanted a LH Flintlock and didn't blink at the price. But I don't care one Iota about the resell value of any of my guns. I wanted them for me, not for my wife to resell. And they have all served me well. My wife is welcome to get what she can out of my stuff when I'm gone, I certainly won't worry about it, besides that money has been well spent for a long time now.
I recently discovered my youngest grandson is a natural lefthander and the flintlocks just fascinate him. So when I pass I'll be dropping my LH guns by his place on the way out.
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Somewhere I have a picture of an origial left hand Hawken that a member used to shoot at the Gemmer Club in St Louis back in the 1960 era
If you find it, I'm sure that there are many that would love to see it.
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I am sure those on here that attended the CLA show at Lexington Ky noticed at least 2,and I believe three LEFT HANDED original flintlock long guns in several styles. Wish now I had taken pics,but the locks were available back in the day. have a goodun,y'all !! Dave 8)
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yes, the locks were available. I think most double guns had at least one LH lock ;D
Someone on here pointed that out to me a few years ago.
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BEST comment yet:
Either way that's what I want. I'm tired of shooting RH guns. I'm not going to build it to satisfy the next owner.
Glad to see your going to get what you want, and ENJOY it.
To Mike's comment, and with all due respect...sometimes the only thing harder to find than a left-hand flintlock shooter...is a left-hand flintlock that meets his needs/wants, that FITS, and that is sufficiently well built to be proud of.