AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: TN Longhunter on July 07, 2017, 12:22:27 AM
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Mention a Tennessee Rifle and iron mount, walnut stocked, poor boy jumps to mind. With more being learned about the Middle Cumberland Schools, we (collective, not me) are learning more about other gunmakers and their styles. This is a recent gun made by Ric Lambert in the style made in Sparta Tennessee in the 1790s. Fifty caliber, swamped barrel and holds perfect.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fehee7v%2FSparta_composite.jpg&hash=dbcc1125059d67a4d37f8851b705bacd74b95c81) (http://ibb.co/gGyvfF)
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TN nice rifle. Eric does fine work. Oldtravler
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fine looking rifle
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Ain't that sumpin'? Lambert has been doing some fine work.
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Ain't that sumpin'? Lambert has been doing some fine work.
I've known Ric for a long time. What he is doing now is excellent work. This piece hangs perfect for me.
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Ric does fine work an his photography of firearms is excellent. Oldtravler
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Beautiful rifle. Ric is a very talented artist. Bob
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Ric does fine work an his photography of firearms is excellent. Oldtravler
Just to make clear, any defects in the photo are mine. Not Ric's. I have learned a lot by picking his brain and still have a way to go, but my photos don't measure up to his.
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That's surprising coming from that part of Tennessee, well east of Nashville.
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That has very few if any of the Tennessee influences from Appalachia nor does it seem to have any influences from the Kentucky schools.
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That has very few if any of the Tennessee influences from Appalachia nor does it seem to have any influences from the Kentucky schools.
It's just a lot earlier than you're used to seeing.
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That's a very nice rifle, Are there any other photos? I'd love to see more close-ups
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It's some great looking rifle, to be sure. Interesting that it's an earlier Tn style. Masterful work, obviously.
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That's a very nice rifle, Are there any other photos? I'd love to see more close-ups
Just took a few quick photos when I got it with plans to take more detailed ones. Now I'm 8hours from home and Ric has the rifle to take to the CLA and show it off. I won't have it back till after the show. You have my permission to fondle it at the show. Holds like a dream.
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That has very few if any of the Tennessee influences from Appalachia nor does it seem to have any influences from the Kentucky schools.
The Appalachian school of longrifles is a thing unto itself. Running from Virginia all the way to Georgia. That school started in the late 1700s and is still going strong today and hasn't changed much and is pushing 250 years. Amazing really! During the Rev. War a whole lot of "armors" were trained and throne together. Ideas, techniques and styles were homogenized during The War. During and after that time many of the men making rifles and repairing arms ventured forth to seek their fortunes in the West. There was a huge market in Kentucky and Tennessee for the skills they had acquired. The Cumberland Valley area East of Nashville became a center of industry and Gun making was in the for front. This rifle is representative of that school.
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Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.
Correct?
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Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.
Correct?
Yes, more or less. However, I'm not sure that there were enough longrifles actually manufactured in NC for a distinctive style to have developed prior to the settlement of Eastern TN (longrifles were pretty common in the Carolina backcountry by the 1770s, but I suspect that most were imported). There certainly aren't many early NC rifles surviving today.
On the other hand, I believe that there are some similarities between some early KY rifles and later NC rifles that can be attributed to certain gunsmiths, such as the Bryans, having been originally trained in NC. That does suggest that some distinctively NC attributes may have been around prior to the Revolution. I don't know much at all about KY schools, though - Shelby Gallien would be the person to ask, I think.
Also, I think that due to geography SW Virginia may have been a bigger influence on TN than NC .
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That has very few if any of the Tennessee influences from Appalachia nor does it seem to have any influences from the Kentucky schools.
It's just a lot earlier than you're used to seeing.
I should have stated that style of gun wasn't a 'mountain gun" either. Built in a more 'civilized" area.
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Sweet thing no matter. I tend to think many would never characterize it as a TN rifle. But then if a maker moved to TN from PA and the first rifle made in TN was exactly like the last one made in PA what would you call it? Saying that some makers made rifles like this in TN around a specific area, maybe that's all that it takes to call it a TN rifle.
But it's really nice.
Yes, a civilized gun. But then does that make your traditional TN rifle uncivilized! :-\
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This is an area of study that has recently come to light. I would like to present a quote from an article by Mel Hankal, published in a recent KRA builtin titled, Riflemen of the Cumberland. It can be read in entirety here, http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/uploads/1/0/3/4/10348480/kra_bulletin_spring_2014_v13_1to11_lres.pdf
"The gunsmith Jacob Young, second child of William Young and Elizabeth Huff, was born May 8, 1774,
on the southwest frontier of Virginia. Jacob’s father, William, was also a gunsmith and in 1776 was living
in Rowan County, North Carolina. William was an armorer under the command of General Griffith
Rutherford. In 1779 he moved his family to the Cumberland, settling on Indian Creek near modern-day
Boma, Tennessee. It was then Sumner County, North Carolina."
So you can see from this bit of verified information that the trend I spoke of was under way during the Rev. War. I know of no known rifles attributed to William Young, but there are several known, signed rifles buy Jacob Young made as early as 1790. Of the three rifles I have photographed made by Jacob Young two would be considered "high art" rifles. Another rife maker and mess mate of William Young , Thomas Simpson had also move into the Cumberland Valley of Tennessee at that time and was making rifles of the highest quality.
All of the rifles made by the men mentioned above were highly influenced buy the Virginia and N. Carolina schools as were the Kentucky gun makers on the frontier. That said the Cumberland Valley School makers along with the KY makers were very distinct in the style they developed.
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Great read Ric. Missed that article, but just added more appreciation for the rifle.
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Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.
Correct?
Yes, more or less. However, I'm not sure that there were enough longrifles actually manufactured in NC for a distinctive style to have developed prior to the settlement of Eastern TN (longrifles were pretty common in the Carolina backcountry by the 1770s, but I suspect that most were imported).
North Carolina had a thriving longrifle industry supplying weapons to a fast growing population in that state. Starting on the east coast and rapidly spreading west during the third quarter of the 18th century. Buy the time of the Rev War there were several distinct schools fully developed in the east, central and finally in some mountain sections of the state.
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To me that rifle certainly has more Virginia influences than influences from the Western North Carolina/Appalachian schools.
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I would tend to agree with c'dad although the box is not like any VA I have seen yet it is VERY appealing!
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To me that rifle certainly has more Virginia influences than influences from the Western North Carolina/Appalachian schools.
You are right Crawdad, the rifle has no Appalachian influences at all.
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Look at some of these Virginian rifles and their patch box piercings. They seem to have differing wrists and combs and butt plates however.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13824.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24770.0
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So are we saying then that the Tennessee Rifle's distinctive style, including the beloved Soddy Daisy that we all know and love, was mostly concentrated in the Appalachian Mountains and as we move further west through Tennessee their rifles were more influenced by the Virginian schools?
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Or, has this question already been addressed in a book I don't have but need to buy? :'(
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Really different and interesting stuff.
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So are we saying then that the Tennessee Rifle's distinctive style, including the beloved Soddy Daisy that we all know and love, was mostly concentrated in the Appalachian Mountains and as we move further west through Tennessee their rifles were more influenced by the Virginian schools?
Yes, that is correct. The Appalachian School is just that, the home of the Mountain Rifle. The classic "Tennessee Rifle" may well be the best known and typifies the Southern Mountain Rifle. The mountain people were not accustom to change and expected their rifle to reflect steadfast mountain style. Everywhere else however change was constant and appealing. So you have the Tennessee Mountain rifle being produced with out interruption from around 1770 or so right up to the present. So you say, Tennessee Rifle and every one knows what you mean. Outside that geographic area other styles were developed in Tennessee. Also Some of those Mountain Gunsmiths move west as well and brought there influence with them of course.
There is no book on this westward development in Tennessee but there is a comprehensive book in the works and may be published in a year or two, hopefully.
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Ric, that's a great rifle and your explanation and defense of the unique Cumberland School has been well done.
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Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.
Correct?
You have to remember that the western bounderies of North & South Carolina went all the way to the Mississippi River until Kentucky and Tennessee separated from them and became States in the late 1700's.
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Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.
Correct?
You have to remember that the western bounderies of North & South Carolina went all the way to the Mississippi River until Kentucky and Tennessee separated from them and became States in the late 1700's.
1796 if I remember correctly ;)
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We would need to see additional central and western Tennessee schools and additional rifles to see just how isolated the Tennessee Mountain Rifle of Appalachia actually was, which I believe was heavily influenced by the North Carolina rifles.
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I don't know but that baffles the heck out of me and I do need to expand my Tennessee 'schools' library.
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To me that rifle certainly has more Virginia influences than influences from the Western North Carolina/Appalachian schools.
There was a whole school of TN gun builders from the period of the 1790's through the first quarter of the 19th century that build guns of this style. What Ric has done here is an earlier form (1790's) of such a rifle. These guns are really a school of their own, with some calling them the Cumberland School. Thomas Simpson was from this school and a later student of the school was Jacob Young, the builder of the William Whitley Rifle, William Wade Woodfork rifle, and two other known survivors. Of all of these Tennessee built guns, accept one iron mounted rifle with a woodbox built by Young, they are brass mounted with captured lid boxes.
Certainly you can see the influence of Virginia in those early rifles of Simpson and Young, but they are Tennesse built rifles. There are other examples of this school of guns that were also build along the Cumberland and Bluegrass Region of Kentucky. The Bryan rifles of Bryans Station in Lexington would be a good Kentucky Example of the later school.
Tennessee like Kentucky is a long east to west state...the regions of east TN/KY are different from the middle and west geographically as they are culturally. This is just as true now as it was then, thus the variation of this school of this middle TN gun verses those that would be seen the east TN guns.
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Regardless of the particular strain of pedigree, it is a beautiful rifle..
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JCMCCLURE, Is correct, this Cumberland school has just, in the last few years ,been recognized and researched. As time goes on there will hopefully be more of these rifles and, info about the makers will surface. Casey McClure has a LOT of first hand knowledge about these rifles . As the former curator of the William Whitley house. He has handled and studied these rifles probably as much as anyone. I`m glad the he also pointed out the difference between the Tenn. builders and those of Kentucky. They probably had some connections yet were different. Thanks Casey
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There isn't much published information on TN guns like this. They remind me a lot of the KY made rifles that Shelby Galien just did a book on, they are very similar in many respects.
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I don't know but that baffles the heck out of me and I do need to expand my Tennessee 'schools' library.
I'm not yet sure what it is that is baffling you but let me point out again that the really unique aspect of the East Tennessee Rifle and all it's cousins in the mountains of Va., NC., SC., Ga., is that it changed very little in stock architecture over time. The second truly unique factor is they remained in production after the muzzleloader was rendered obsolete in the rest of North America. This was due to the isolation the imposed on the mountain people by the very mountains they live in. This discussion of things going on in other part of the State of Tennessee is in no way dismissive of the mountain rifles place on the frontier or anywhere else. So in, the iconic Tennessee Rifle has staked it's place in the lore of the longrifle by steadfast tenacity reflective of the people who made and use them.
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I found this on the internet concerning the Tennessee Rifle. Slim pickings considering all the books that have been written about other states and their rifle development.
TENNESSEE RIFLES By Robin C. Hale A paper presented at the Fall, 1970 meeting of the American Society of Arms Collectors at Houston, Texas
This is particularly interesting.
"Many collectors think of the typical Tennessee rifle as one which is relatively plain, is iron-mounted, and has a banana-shaped patchbox or sometimes a grease-hole in the buttstock. This is true regarding many of the rifles made in the upper East Tennessee counties and to a lesser extent, or rifles made elsewhere in East Tennessee. To consider this style of rifle as typical of all Tennessee rifles, however, would be like considering the distinctive Bedford County rifles as typical examples of Pennsylvania "Kentuckies." Later on, we will look at photographs of a number of rifles from East and Middle Tennessee, including some which vary from the able common to the upper East Tennessee region."
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Good Find Crawdad, I had not seen this before.
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Thanks Ric!!!! :)
A real shame that there is such a lack of printed information about these iconic rifles.
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;D ;D... Rumor at the TN-KY rifle show back in the spring was that a full color book on TENNESSEE rifles is in the works ...... I do hope that someone has and will use all the photos that Robin Hale had ..... Regards, CC Fiddler .....
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;D ;D... Rumor at the TN-KY rifle show back in the spring was that a full color book on TENNESSEE rifles is in the works ...... I do hope that someone has and will use all the photos that Robin Hale had ..... Regards, CC Fiddler .....
This is true, but the book is a major undertaking and wide in scope and will not be published soon. I talked with the author recently and told it would be 2yrs before the book was out.
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I would be willing to preorder to get a copy as soon as printed. I love the KY Longrifles books and hope the Tennessee one will be as good.
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Ric is doing very nice work and it defiantly is historically correct for what is becoming known as the Cumberland school of gunsmiths. Thomas Simpson and Jacob Young are two of the principal smiths of this school. Mel Hankla has done a lot of research on these two smiths and there is a book in the works that is going to shed more light on this school that will change how Tennessee rifles are viewed in the future. There are high art rifles that were made in Tennessee that in the 1790's and early 1800's that were nicely carved, brass mounted with silver inlays and overlaid silver on brass decorated rifles. I do agree that these very talented smiths learned their craft problably in Viginia and then migrated into Tennessee and brought the craft with them. But both of these smiths rifles have design features that are not seen on any Virginia or Carolina guns or anybody else's guns. What you do see are some of thier design features being used slightly modified by later period smiths. This is going to be a very interesting area as more info becomes available.
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Here are a few pictures of another fine rifle made by Jacob Young that show some of the artistic details he used.
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html
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Here are a few pictures of another fine rifle made by Jacob Young that show some of the artistic details he used.
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html
After viewing this incredible rifle I see the type Ric needs to work on next.
Hope I'm not putting too much pressure on you Buddy!
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That is one beautiful rifle, TN Longhunter.
And WE NEED THAT BOOK!!!!! :)
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That is one beautiful rifle, TN Longhunter.
And WE NEED THAT BOOK!!!!! :)
I need to find out who is doing it ( I have a good idea) and offer to cut their grass so they have time to work on the book. Plus, I just bought it, Ric is the one that needs to be told how well he did.
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I can trim and do some weeding and do some painting also. ;D
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That is a fine looking rifle .