AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Mullengunbarn on July 25, 2017, 05:58:33 AM
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This is my first post on American long rifles, my grandpa gave me a rifle on Saturday when I stoped by to visit him. It has been in our family since 1934 when my great great grandfather got it as a gift from his son who bought it at an auction in Missouri from a meriwether estate auction for two dollars. My grandpa has used it to shoot squirrels here in iowa. I believe that it shoots a .389 ball and has about a 42" barrel. The lock says ketland and that's about all I can see. Also appears to have a grease hole in the stock, very plain stock with no hardware other than the trigger guard and rod guides. Let me know what y'all think. I couldn't find a .389 ball mold so I ordered a .390 will have to wait and see if that will work. I will post some better pics in the daylight. Hope I'm posting in the right place.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdiNJ0Q%2FKIMG0612.jpg&hash=7b1e59c5fe56059c956f22aace581fd7aa62784f) (http://ibb.co/ijJrLQ)
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Neat! More pics!
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I like it
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Man,what a sweet lil shootin iron !!!! Looks like a good candidate to build a new one off the pattern !! Gotta see the rest of it. Welcome to the forum. Moderators might move this to antiques,but it looks good here,and thanks a heap for sharing.
Man,y'all,what a first post !!Sho' nuff sum stuffs. Dave 8)
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:o :o... Wow...still a few old guns coming out of the closet ...!!! .... very nice southern hog rifle... Ketland lock was originally flint..!! ...appears to be black walnut stock ... beautiful forged iron triggerguard ..post more pix, please...barrel tang, bottom view of trigger guard, area where ramrod goes into stock, muzzle end, cheek-piece, etc., any markings near rear sight on barrel ..?? or around end of muzzle .?? .... Thanx for posting...!!!
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Well I got some more pics of it in the natural light this morning.
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Mullengunbarn, First welcome aboard!! second, man that is one COOL!!! little rifle ! You are fortunate to have such a neat little piece . Thanks for sharing !! Nate
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Nothing short of fabulous!
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Dang if hit aint a Proper Mountain gun!!! Thanks for the extra pictures,I repeat my original post,and then some. I have a cherry smr project of similar lines,just might finish out close to this'n. Best regards, Dave 8)
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That is one super rifle! I'd say probably a NC gun with that architecture and double line moldings. Possibly a deep River gun.
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8) 8)... Thanx for extra pix .... agree with Mike ... incised lines on butt & forestock scream N C .....old style, and with the converted lock was most likely an original flint gun .... great forged T/G .. !!! .... (if I didn't know better, I might think was an early Hershel House gun...his early rifles were no butt plate & incised line decoration) ... !!!... C'mon Wayne Elliott, Old Traveller, Dennis Glazener & Arnie Dowd.... Opinions please ... !!! ;) ;) ;)
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That is a fine So. Mtn Gun! A real prize. and I agree that it looks to have been an original flintlock. Oh the stories that gun could tell!!
Welcome and congratulations!!
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Welcome to ALR and thank you for bringing this. A fabulous example of a Southern Mountain Rifle. It has it all, and looks in such good condition and comes complete with a provenance. it does not get any better.
Take good care of it, pass it on in the family some day.
dave
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Looks like a dandy gem of a lil gun, I love when guns turn that color.
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Welcome to the ALR an with a fine rifle taboot!
Be real proud of this one!
Just to be different I would add eastern Tennessee. Check the old Fox fire five for some comparison s.
NC is a good call too! Anyway you look at it. Mighty fine...Oldtravler
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Man do I love that one piece triggerguard. The narrowed front of the bow, with the nicely spread bottom of the bow, and the fully developed spur, along with the fine filed up finials, tells me this isn't the first gun this old boy made. That's a lot of work on a triggerguard that's going on a gun with no buttplate. Tennessee, or North Carolina, would be my guess as to where it was built. I did see a similar gun that came from Mississippi, but the smith was originally from Western South Carolina, so it doesn't really count.
Hungry Horse
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Welcome to the forum, Mullengunbarn. I agree that wonderful rifle was most likely originally flint. A beautiful example of an old SMR. Very well made; is there a maker's name on any of the barrel flats; sometimes they will appear on the underside flat. How does the lock work, the trigger? What kind of shape is the bore in? Thank you for sharing this wonderful piece of history.
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Looks like the upper forestock is a restoration. The double line stops in about 8" and there seems to be a vertical splice. Neither here nor there, just an observation.
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Welcome to ALR. Neat looking rifle. Congrats!
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Really a nice looking SMR and could be from NC. I once owned a signed "D.S." rifle that I think may have been David Sheets that lived in NC and possibly later on in Ohio but the rifle came from a local family that lived near Greensboro NC. The rifle I owned had a very similiar stock profile and the cheekrest was also very similiar except the cheek rest was shorter than on this one.
Dennis
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The forearm was repaired by my Granpa in 1964, also he said he "freshed" out the barrel with a dowel rod dipped in epoxy and then rolled it in some abrasive material, then he put it on a slow drill with some valve grinding compound until it was good enough. lands look good and I ran a patch down it and didn't feel any rough spots. There is no marks on the barrel other than the hammer marks from beating it around the mandrel when it was made. At least I assume that's what the marks would be from. Him and a friend of his that built muzzleloaders from spirit lake always went opener squirrel with there longrifles and gramps said it's right on the money.
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;D ;D... By gorsh, Mike... you still got 'um good eyes ... !!... I missed that until I enlarged photo ... !!! ... I do think was originally flint .... anyone else..?? .. Dennis ...what think ye ..??
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Great looking rifle! More pictures would be welcome!!!
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Lovely to see a family heirloom stay in the family, be real interested in seeing how it shoots !
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A Classic.
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Dandy little rifle, thanks for posting!!
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You sho 'nuff got all of us fired up. Thanks for coming on board. Dave 8)
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;D ;D... By gorsh, Mike... you still got 'um good eyes ... !!... I missed that until I enlarged photo ... !!! ... I do think was originally flint .... anyone else..?? .. Dennis ...what think ye ..??
Yep, started as flint. But they were still making flint guns in the 1850's in NC. Looks like a 1810-20 gun to me. Love to get a tracing of that stock and some measurements.
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What's the detail either side of the front sight blade? Engraving? Really neat little rifle.
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On either side of the blade it looks like it was stamped with a Tool that left some type of marking, but it could be engraving.
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??? ???... Wow this is one helluva interesting rifle ... !!! .... Another observation while Mike Brooks eyesight is available (HaHa) ...do I see holes at front & back of trigger-guard where was once pins..??? .... maybe replaced T/G ...or tabs broke & screws were then used to attatch..??? ..... whatcha think, boys...??... would love to hold this one & study her ... !!!
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I agree with Mr Brooks! I'd like to see measurements, and possibly get a tracing!
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;D ;D... By gorsh, Mike... you still got 'um good eyes ... !!... I missed that until I enlarged photo ... !!! ... I do think was originally flint .... anyone else..?? .. Dennis ...what think ye ..??
Yes I feel sure it was an original flintlock rifle. If you look to the rear of the hammer you can see where the lock molding was cut for the flint cock, plus the current lock looks to be converted from flint. I would not argue with Mike's 1810-20 dates but as he said there were many flint rifles being made as late as the 1850's and probably later than that.
Did you notice the little (frog?) design on each side of the sight blade, on the top of the brass base, haven't seen that before.
I like that trigger guard but something about it makes me think its not original to the rifle, can't explain why. Might be the two screws holding it own which would be normal for a SMR but not for that guard. Take a look at the 6th photo down, the one that looks at the bottom of the trigger guard. Is that hole between the guard and the lock for a cross pin on the trigger guard?
Dennis
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It was a flint lock so I asummed the holes were from the old pan and whatever else was on a ketland flint lock. My grandpa said he took it to the antique road show once and there antique gun experts said the lock dated 1776, for what it's worth, so that would mean it was a flint lock at one time.
Anyone have any suggestions for loads? I was gonna start with about 10 grains of fff and go from there, planning on shooting skerls with it.
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;D ;D... By gorsh, Mike... you still got 'um good eyes ... !!... I missed that until I enlarged photo ... !!! ... I do think was originally flint .... anyone else..?? .. Dennis ...what think ye ..??
Yes I feel sure it was an original flintlock rifle. If you look to the rear of the hammer you can see where the lock molding was cut for the flint cock, plus the current lock looks to be converted from flint. I would not argue with Mike's 1810-20 dates but as he said there were many flint rifles being made as late as the 1850's and probably later than that.
Did you notice the little (frog?) design on each side of the sight blade, on the top of the brass base, haven't seen that before.
I like that trigger guard but something about it makes me think its not original to the rifle, can't explain why. Might be the two screws holding it own which would be normal for a SMR but not for that guard. Take a look at the 6th photo down, the one that looks at the bottom of the trigger guard. Is that hole between the guard and the lock for a cross pin on the trigger guard?
Dennis
Dennis I only see one screw and that is in the rear finial. I think the round thing at front of bow is a rivet that holds the lug on and has a crosspin attaching the front finial to the stock
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If it wasn't a family heirloom you're unwilling to part with, there's folks who would trade you a contemporary shooter.
It might shoot well but you risk damaging a rare and valuable original and it might be challenging to get it to keep all shots on a softball at say 35 yards. You might consider having a bench copy made as a shooter. Just an idea.
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Anyone have any suggestions for loads? I was gonna start with about 10 grains of fff and go from there, planning on shooting skerls with it.
Not only the concern for damage to the gun there is also the risk for damage to yourself. Who knows what rust has done to that hand forged barrel over the years.
Dennis
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;D ;D... By gorsh, Mike... you still got 'um good eyes ... !!... I missed that until I enlarged photo ... !!! ... I do think was originally flint .... anyone else..?? .. Dennis ...what think ye ..??
Yes I feel sure it was an original flintlock rifle. If you look to the rear of the hammer you can see where the lock molding was cut for the flint cock, plus the current lock looks to be converted from flint. I would not argue with Mike's 1810-20 dates but as he said there were many flint rifles being made as late as the 1850's and probably later than that.
Did you notice the little (frog?) design on each side of the sight blade, on the top of the brass base, haven't seen that before.
I like that trigger guard but something about it makes me think its not original to the rifle, can't explain why. Might be the two screws holding it own which would be normal for a SMR but not for that guard. Take a look at the 6th photo down, the one that looks at the bottom of the trigger guard. Is that hole between the guard and the lock for a cross pin on the trigger guard?
Dennis
Dennis I only see one screw and that is in the rear finial. I think the round thing at front of bow is a rivet that holds the lug on and has a crosspin attaching the front finial to the stock
Don,
You are correct, I didn't look at the "rivet" that close earlier. No question you are correct and the hole between the guard and the lock molding is for the cross pin.
I still am not convinced this guard was made for this rifle. Maybe re-used from another gun.
Dennis
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The grease hole was drilled with a bit having a point in the center. Tool Collector Guys know (NOT me) when this point began to be used. Earlier bits had no center point. Gives some idea of stock age. Obviously, I know no terminology here but 1000 years ago did know something about drill bits.
If that trigger guard was replaced it was at least a hand forged iron one, contemporary with use of this mountain rifle.
Yeah, I like it.
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Mr. Kelly, there was a recent discussion of drill marks in patchbox cavities. No hard dates given but interesting.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=44686.msg438400#msg438400
Based on the buttstock styling and narrowness of the buttstock I'd say its unlikely to be much earlier than 1800. If the flintlock is original and was new-ish when the gun was built, it seems not later than 1820. But parts get shuffled around and I'm no expert on originals like this one. I bet if it had a buttplate there would be a lot more curvature in the buttplate than we see here.
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Just to keep the facts and schools correct I would like to add a couple of comments. Some people have referred to this rifle as being a mountain rifle. Mike Brooks suggested that it might be from the Early Deep River School. From looking at the photos, I agree with Mike. The gunsmiths who worked in the Early Deep River School lived in three counties in Piedmont North Carolina. Guilford, Randolph, and Alamance. None of those are in or near the mountains.
There are a number of surviving Piedmont North Carolina Longrifles from the Early Deep River School and the Bear Creek School that are iron mounted. Many people who see an iron mounted rifle immediately think it is a mountain rifle, but it is not always so.
In judging if a rifle is from the Deep River School or is a mountain rifle I always look for incised carved lines along the butt stock.
[The rifle in this post has two of them.] The lines will often be repeated on the fore-stock. [This is the case with this rifle to.]
Most mountain rifles I have owned or studied have no incised carved lines on the butt stock, comb, or fore-stock. There could be an exception to this somewhere, but it is generally correct.
Over the years I have seen several Deep River School poor boy rifles like this one and it is great to see it still in the family and appreciated.
Michael
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Bro Briggs, I like what you say about this rifle.Now, a bit of personal clarification re mountain Rifle.
Up here in the hills of WVa,long time ago the old timers had a generic term for most all long rifles,be they fancy brass mtd,or plain ol Iron . That term was,and still is in some of us hillbilly circles,Mountain Rifle. This was before the westward expansion.
Many of my ancestors are from the Piedmont region,and you are right about what you said. Heck,man, I would like to have this sweet survivor myself. I don't care if it has been somewhat modified,just the fact that it still IS.
Have a goodun,all y'all!!! Ol Dave in the Hills o Wes Virginny 8) :o