AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Bigmon on August 07, 2017, 04:58:19 PM
-
MAybe I am getting rediculous about this but it seems reasonable to me.
Let's say the perfect web thickness between the bottom of a straight barrel and the RR grove or channel is 3 / 16" ??
But now we have a swamped barrel. Where do we try and get the web thickness at??
If at the breech then it is too much at the muzzle.
If at the muzzle then you will never get a front lock bolt in the web, and it is way too thin.??
Do the premier kit makers, or even the others, or any builders from planks even consider this.?
Shouldn't that RR hole and grove be at a slope if the bore were dead level? Then the RR grove should be 3/16 at the largest breech and also at the swelled muzzle.
There by sloping just slightly upward toward the muzzle.
The slope being the difference between the two largest dimensions??
Or is this just too much to consider??
Thanks
-
Lay the barrel out on a long piece of paper. Mark where the bottom flat is at Muzzle and breech. Draw a straight land between the 2 points.
Draw a parallel line 3/16" below this.
The area between the lower line and the barrel is your web.
-
Where do we try and get the web thickness at??
In your case for a swamped barrel, the front and the back should measure 3/16" with a straight line in between.
-
Hopefully Dave Rase will respond, but here's my take.
When I lay out a blank, I measure breech and muzzle, forget about the swamp, and use those dimensions for layout.
In the grand scheme of things, if you have your 3/16" at breech and muzzle, even with a big swamp, your web will be a little thicker at the waist.
How much? A few hundredths of an inch?
BTW, I think 3/16 is too much in most guns.
Keep that web as thin as you can to make a slim,sleek fore stock, and ramrod tight to the muzzle.
-
When I layout the rr channel for a swamped barrel on a fresh blank I work from the bottom of the barrel inlet. I measure the depth of the bottom of the barrel at the breech and the Muzzle and transfer these measurements to the outside of the stock. Once I have these two points established I measure down 3/16" at the breech and 1/8" at the Muzzle and I draw a straight line between these two points. I work every thing below the barrel from this line. This will give you a very slender look to your rifle and give you just enough room for an 8x32 front lock bolt without getting into the rr channel.
-
Is trying to have the web measure less than 3/16" historically correct, or is it another one of the attributes that we apply to contemporary builds. Serious question.
-
Follow Mike brooks advise. Do not try to follow the swamp of the barrel or it will end badly. Mike has built a lot of guns as
myself. I use a 1/8" web but 3/16 is OK.
-
Is trying to have the web measure less than 3/16" historically correct, or is it another one of the attributes that we apply to contemporary builds. Serious question.
Depends on when and where. Musket that might be used for bayoneting? Thicker is better. Lehigh? Super thin.
-
Pretty much everything that can be said has been said by the smart guys on this thread. All you need to concern yourself with are 2 points, the breech and the muzzle. Lay out your desired web thickness at each point and then draw a straight line. This will be the bottom of your ramrod groove and ramrod. Once you are ready to drill, don't forget to say a prayer before drilling.
David
-
I like 3/16 as that gives you a little working area at the breech. I do not like to notch the barrel or the forward lock bolt or taper the ram rod till there ain,t nuthin left. The only time I do the above is when I screw up or have bad luck and have to wiggle through a tight spot. By the way most of my bad luck is self generated by trying to hurry. Think a lot then go at it.
-
A web anywhere between 1/8 to 3/16 is fine. I like 3/16 because it gives me room to screw things up a bit and still recover. I expose enough barrel and RR channel to slim things up. Nobody has ever commented I build a fat forestock. ;)
-
At the recommendation of an experienced builder, I split the difference and use a web thickness of 5/32" at the muzzle. That should leave you about 1/8" for the front lock bolt on a heavily swamped barrel. The ramrod groove should always be parallel to the bore. If it isn't, you are going to have a hard time drilling the ramrod hole.
-
Thanks to all for the information.
Maybe I stsed my original question in a confusing way?? But by the majority of the answers I can get what ya'all are saying.
Yes, I really dont consider the "swamp", just the difference between the largest at the breech and the dimension at the muzzle.
In keeping the 3/16" web at both places, there would be a slight slope or taper towards the muzzle.
IMHO not to do so is either gonna give too much web at the muzzle or not enough space under the breech?
I know its not much diff, but it makes a difference in appearance or function one way or the other.
Thanks again
-
You DO allow 3/16" at Muzzle and breech. And the web is thicker at the waist of the barrel.
-
A web anywhere between 1/8 to 3/16 is fine. I like 3/16 because it gives me room to screw things up a bit and still recover. I expose enough barrel and RR channel to slim things up. Nobody has ever commented I build a fat forestock. ;)
Mike - you build Fat Forestocks!
naa, just kidding.
-
The Bucks County LRs I build have a web at the breech of 1/16" and at the muzzle 5/32". This yields a slight tapering of the upper forestock towards the muzzle w/ the swamped bbl I use. All the bbls/blanks are shipped to Dave Rase and he is able to do the work as stated. The last Lancaster was done the same and is also quite slender except for the buttstock. The bbl length for the BC is 46" and that for the Lancaster 44"".....Fred
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiYHj7F%2FP1010007.jpg&hash=4f28525bbd15e786e83eaf093be61edf30e4bbdc) (http://ibb.co/nmBoZv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdCN6Ma%2FLancaster_IH_011.jpg&hash=3b3fc502ecbb2c2870ce3302480454a6e90d0ccb) (http://ibb.co/fkyfga)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcMfFEv%2FP1010027.jpg&hash=1be76b074d0fd451be1ffe6f15124b3ad515e72f) (http://ibb.co/kfU8Zv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fh2O2uv%2FP1010005.jpg&hash=87b39d2650b1951e72703420bf177e6a69e2b7e8) (http://ibb.co/cm1Y1a)
-
The ramrod groove / hole doesn't need to be parallel to the bore and it doesn't have to be in a straight line. It can follow the swamp of the barrel to some degree. This is commonly seen on original work.
Jim
-
Jim, on ramrods that follow the swamp to some degree do you think the ramrod groove was straight to begin with then deepened at the waist of the barrel? Not sure how to drill the ramrod hole unless the groove is flat.
-
Rich,
I'm sure it could be drilled either of the ways you suggested. We're not talking about much of a curve to the channel. With a little bit of figuring you can estimate where the hole will end up even if the ramrod drill is bowed a touch in the center. This won't prevent you from drilling a hole well.
I'm not sure of Mark Silver's approach, but I do recall him making the groove follow the barrel in his stocking video.
I also have discussed this with Wallace and his approach was to make underlugs the same height, inlet them into the barrel channel prior to cutting the groove and then use these as depth guides when cutting the ramrod channel. When breaking into the underlug inlet you would know you were to depth.
I've bowed the groove before and not had any problem drilling the hole. In fact, the current new kit I'm working on has a groove set-up this way.
-
Thanks Jim. I need to do that underlug as a depth gauge trick.
-
Wow, this is getting interesting. But beyond my power to understand.
I never even thought it possible to mill and or drill a rr channel and hole in an arc.
I was just trying to see if anyone else thought the channel and hole should be on a taper. As if it were just a tapered barrel, and follow that taper keep in equal distance from the bottom of the barrel wether it be 3/16", 1/8" or what ever, just parrallel to the taper. or the taper produced by the difference in the dimensions of a swamped barre.
I didnt think it possible to make that grove and hole in an arc. And really still dont see a way to do it unless maybe bowing the stock, shimming and clamping in the exact position while drilling and milling the hole and grove in an actual straight line.
But once the bow in the wood would be released it would produce the arc'd rr channel.
But why??
Wouldnt it produce the same desired effect straight as it would in the arc??
You would still be the determined desired distance ( say 3/16"0 at the muzzle and inder the breech??
Wow, is all I can say????
Thanks for a great discussion?
-
It's not hard to imagine how an original RR groove could be slightly curved. If you were cutting it with a gauge or scraper and you had a little grain tear-out and you tried to chase it away, your groove could easily be curved.
-
Well yes, I have probably done many cuts, etc that are curved. But a better word might be crocked.
I meant "on purpose".
But yes if done by hand by a craftsman I can see how he could do it in an arc.
But what about the drilled protion? And again, I am sure many of them are curved, but on purpose? Under control??
I have seen a few that have drilled out the bottom or out the side. They were curved. But not on purpose.
Thanks to all as always.
-
Yes, on purpose. Nothing too difficult. The key is repeatability and predictability. Ditch the machining mindset where the assumption is things need to be straight, geometric etc.
There's an obvious and big reason for doing this... To slim down the forestock height. This becomes more important for barrels with a heavy breech and significant swamp. A slight curve, though quite subtle is always more visually pleasing as well.
Yes, stocks can be bowed when drilling as well. This is pretty much a requirement when building a proper English fowling piece due to the huge breech and comparatively small forward barrel sections.
I should add that this certainly isn't any requirement and most of the guns I've built don't have this characteristic. Sometimes it can really add to the grace of a gun though.
I also should mention the flare at the muzzle is mostly ignored when the groove is made to follow the barrel. At least this is how I go about it.
Finally, just want to encourage people here to consider the sources of thoughts or viewpoints. This comes from people who are very well respected and have devoted their lives to this stuff. Seems this is sometimes a failing of message boards such as this.
-
If i want a curve in the ramrod channel, I inlet the barrel, on a swamped one, in a straite line just touching the breech and muzzle. Drill the ramrod hole then pull the stock up to the barrel and pin. Some minor fitting may be required but the ramrod does follow the bottom of the barrel.
-
That's why I asked on here. I am not trying to argue, but just being sure I understand.
The part about ignoring the muzzle flare makes it allot easier to understand.
As does the last method described.
Thanks to all