AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bones92 on August 29, 2017, 07:32:24 PM
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Is there a best method for reducing the granule size of FFFg to something a bit faster in the pan?
I would think a smooth-surface stone mortar and pestle would work, but I've heard people using a bottle to roll back and forth to crush the powder a bit.
Or should this be avoided altogether?
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Do or the cost of a pound of FFFFg I wouldn't take a chance of something going wrong and blowing up in my face. Happened once and that was enough. IMHO.
Mark
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Safest, cleanest, and surest method is to buy a can of 4F. 8)
Where are you? I have a can I'll never use--until I get good enough to need better charge powders, which may not happen soon. 1/2 or 1/4 of a pound would go a long long way. Borrow some, see if it helps. I'll give you some of mine FTF.
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I prime with 4F and have enough to last for years; just a can or two will do that. It's not worth the trouble, risk or time grinding down 3F. If it were me and I had no 4F, I'd simply use 3F; you won't be able to tell any difference in speed.
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In a pinch once I used the tip of my short starter to grind up some 1&1/2 F for prime. It worked ok but given the choice I would use reg. prime powder.
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In a pinch once I used the tip of my short starter to grind up some 1&1/2 F for prime. It worked ok but given the choice I would use reg. prime powder.
Use 3fg to load and prime. I did with the 58 caliber flintlock rifle I made
back in 2008 and it was about as fast as a caplock.If the vent is right and
the lock is a fast one it will be fast.
Bob Roller
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I use 3F for priming most of the time, the can of 4F sets on the shelf in the shop mostly unused. I would not go to the trouble and danger to grind powder.
dave
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3f primes good until you can get 4f. Maybe just use the last 1/10 of a can, where the fines seem to accumulate...
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Is there a best method for reducing the granule size of FFFg to something a bit faster in the pan?
I would think a smooth-surface stone mortar and pestle would work, but I've heard people using a bottle to roll back and forth to crush the powder a bit.
Or should this be avoided altogether?
I have 2 cans of FFFFg that are essentially useless to me - I thought I needed it and it turns out I really don't. Just prime with whatever is in your horn. Some people claim they can tell the difference in speed between FFg, FFFg and FFFFg used for priming, but I think it is more wishful thinking than reality ;).
If you are getting delays or failures in firing, it is unlikely that the granulation of powder is the issue and more likely your lock has issues...
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I have a whole small priming horn full of something that is sub Swiss 4F that I crushed down by hand (As if Swiss 4F wasn't fast enough LOL)
......this was years ago, and when i was done I thought to myself "Self....that was probably a bad idea" :o ;D
But I have a horn full of the finest stuff you ever saw and come to think of it I have yet to even try it.
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My main intent is to speed up ignition on the Cornell Kemper .45 for the upcoming NCSMLRA shoot in September.
I am thinking about having a White Lightning liner installed. I hate to mess with this rifle, but given that Marvin Kemper offered to install it, I consider it a "factory upgrade".
I sort of envisioned putting just a large pinch in down at a time, rolling it a couple times, dumping into a bowl, and grabbing another pinch. About one pan's worth in a pinch...
Another idea would be to put some powder on a hard flat surface, spray a very light mist of water, grind it a bit finer, then set it out to dry. Seems like it would be much safer, and once the powder dries, it performs the same, regardless (or so I've read).
Anyway, the education continues. I don't ask these questions to challenge tried-and-true methods or change minds. I'm merely seeking a better understanding.
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My question is:
Why do you feel it necessary to speed ignition?
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It's been proven in timed tests that the null B and 4f are faster than 2 and 3 f for prime. Our own Larry Pletcher (sp) did a lot of testing on this and has the work sheet published on the forum. If the extra ignition speed helps an individual shooter is up to the shooter to determine.
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Speeds measured from video frames and speed that can be perceived by a person are very different. From what I remember, the difference Larry found was 1/10th of a second - hardly/not perceptible in real time.
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To echo smylee grouch, because a faster ignition helps me shoot better.
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Hi Bones, so back to your original question, yes you can grind courser powder down to finer powder for the pan but there are alot of people who advise against it. I my self can't detect any difference in speed in my hunting guns but I still use Null B or 4f just because I know its faster and I have a lot of it. There are a lot of competition shooters who feel the same.
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Many years ago a friend used a wooden spoon and wooden bowl to crush powder and in our opinion it was faster. E. Christopher Firearms made a 4 dollar wood powder mill for this. (40 yrs ago)
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Is there a best method for reducing the granule size of FFFg to something a bit faster in the pan?
I would think a smooth-surface stone mortar and pestle would work, but I've heard people using a bottle to roll back and forth to crush the powder a bit.
Or should this be avoided altogether?
I have 2 cans of FFFFg that are essentially useless to me - I thought I needed it and it turns out I really don't. Just prime with whatever is in your horn. Some people claim they can tell the difference in speed between FFg, FFFg and FFFFg used for priming, but I think it is more wishful thinking than reality ;).
If the vent or flash hole isn't right,the finest,fastest lock ever made will be of
no benefit.IF you have a fast lock and the vent is right the gun will fire as
fast with 3fg as it will with 4fg. I think the 4fg is more tradition than benefit.
The late Tom Dawson had a Manton 16 bore rifle that fired so fast it was more
like the gun kicking back under the lock than the lock firing the gun.
Bob Roller
If you are getting delays or failures in firing, it is unlikely that the granulation of powder is the issue and more likely your lock has issues...
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Is that really why you shoot a muzzleloader? To see if you can make it shoot like a modern rifle? We are missing something!
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Bob,
I agree.
A touch-hole that is too big or too small can cause ignition problems/delays. I'd run a 1/16" bit through the touch-hole and see if that has an effect. A touch-hole coned from the inside also helps - puts the main charge closer to the pan and can improve ignition - can be accomplished with a White Lightning liner (BTW, Chambers has made liners of barrel steel that will brown/blue, in addition to stainless steel).
Even if your powder is smaller and might catch easier (relative term), other issues are far more significant.
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I have switched back and forth between 3 and 4f for years. If it is really humid I prefer 3fff. If dry I use 4ffff. The fine prime goes to mush in a hurry with humid/wet conditions. I can't tell the difference in ignition time. Of course my brain is probably too slow to tell the difference.
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See, this is why I like asking questions like this.
I have suspected that the vent hole is a wee bit too small. Ignition time may be one thing, but I also wonder if the vent is a bit too small. I think it gets fouled a bit easily, slowing down ignition or leading to ye olde flash-in-the-pan.
I will compare the vent hole to a 1/16" drill bit. I think the vent is smaller than 1/16". Here's an image.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPkdJlYN.jpg%3F1&hash=bd4ace996130381d0a284fc187292c67aa2d919d)
Here's a video of my son firing it. GOEX 3Fg in the pan and the main charge. Warm, a bit humid (but not excessively humid)
https://youtu.be/JuewQ7gbURE
I will admit that I poured 3F out of my priming flask (about 20 grain at a time) onto a sheet of paper yesterday, rolled it with a plastic glue stick, and poured it back in. Definitely a finer granulation. Actually, it dispenses through the flask nipple much easier now.
And let me just say... I LOVE THIS RIFLE. It is a superb shooter. When I do my part, she puts them into the center of the bull consistently.
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It appears as if the touch-hole is drilled directly into the barrel, though the size is difficult to determine from an image. Can you tell if it is coned on the inside? This was/is done with the breechplug removed.
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You may also be using too much prime, leading to a fuse effect. Some people have success banking the prime away from the touch-hole and/or using less prime.
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Build yourself a screen, and screen your other powder granulations, you will get plenty of priming powder if the other powders have been around any time at all.
Hungry Horse
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HH, I may do that.
Yes, this rifle was made in the early to mid 70's. I have no idea if Cornell coned the inside or not. Perhaps Marvin will know...
I also wonder if I'm using too much priming powder. Anyone got a photo of an ideal amount of priming powder in the pan?
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I also wonder if I'm using too much priming powder. Anyone got a photo of an ideal amount of priming powder in the pan?
That is a little like asking which truck is best. It will vary according to the gun/lock, the size/shape/depth of the pan and the location of the touch-hole..
I cover the bottom of the pan but not the touch-hole, close the frizzen and "toss" the rifle to the lock side to "throw" the powder away from the opening.
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Here in CA, we're only allowed one (1) pound of black powder at a time....and they track it. So I use 3f for the main charge and make my own 4f using a ball mill.
I take one of the kids old rock tumblers (plastic can and lid) put about 2 ounces in and a handful of lead balls. Let it rotate for about 20 minutes and you've got 4f.
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Vent hole size can make or break a fast ignition. The very first thing I do with a new rifle is drill out the vent to 1/16"; lock speed is fast after that. I also use just a smidgen (about 1/3 pan ful) for general shooting & targets. A vent that has a 1/16" opening and is coned on the inside is, IMHO, about as good as it gets. You may find that if you "grind" the powder it can be inconsistent as it will not be as uniform as the screened powders.. Screening the 3F is the easiest and safest way to get prime. But honestly, I really can't tell any difference 4F vs 3F. Follow through will negate any speed vs speed effects.
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Having posted the video and watched the rifle firing a few times... it doesn't seem terribly slow.
What do you all think?
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There is a short hesitation which may be due to previously-mentioned issues. Check your touch-hole with the shank of a 1/16" bit and try a little less prime....
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Build yourself a screen, and screen your other powder granulations, you will get plenty of priming powder if the other powders have been around any time at all.
Hungry Horse
Wise guy. 8)
I mean wise-the good kind. ;D
Also, as Pletch determined years ago, human beings are not equipped with accurate-enough sensory perception to get "ignition speed" timing anywhere near correct.
Pletch also explores the other factors of ignition timing in his experiments. I don't know where that info lives, but have seen it enough times that I don't fret over powder granulation for hunting purposes. For off-hand target shooting I might, but rested target shooting nullifies the point for me.
2F in the pan (how much faster can it get?) :
https://youtu.be/Yz6z3AOxn64?t=1m08s
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After watching the video, I'd put a white lightnin' TH in it drilled out to 1/16".
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Seeing the lock in question, it appears to be a Russ Hamm Maslin. You may not be able to speed things up much.Put a liner in it.
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Also, as Pletch determined years ago, human beings are not equipped with accurate-enough sensory perception to get "ignition speed" timing anywhere near correct.
Pletch also explores the other factors of ignition timing in his experiments. I don't know where that info lives, but have seen it enough times that I don't fret over powder granulation for hunting purposes. For off-hand target shooting I might, but rested target shooting nullifies the point for me.
Here is the link to the testing I did. The article is in 6 parts. The two main questions I had was the vent location and the location of the priming powder in the pan. There are some real myths within these two topic. I hope the whole article is read before opinions are made.
Regards,
Pletch
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/)
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How about summarizing your conclusions....?
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How about summarizing your conclusions....?
Part 3 and Part 5 deal with the location of priming powder in the pan.
Part 3: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/)
Part 5 : https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-5-timing-powder-locations-in-pan/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-5-timing-powder-locations-in-pan/)
Part 6 deals with high and low vent locations: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments/)
I'd encourage the reader to form their own conclusions.
Regards,
Pletch
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I read through all of those tests last night again as I went through them when you first posted them and agree with all your findings as they mirror my shooting experiences. Thanks for doing all of these tests and publishing the results, it's good to expose some of those old wives tales with facts. Thanks again. :)
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I've read and reread all of Larry's findings over the years.....always good stuff.
A little validation for why with a properly located clean vent and a good flint my extremely complex procedure of just fill the pan level with 4f and snap it shut has worked pretty flawlessly for 25+ years LOL
I never understood all the OCD ignition tricks for flintlocks like "my gun fires best with 1/4 pan full of 3F powder, lock tilted down, side smacked, banked away, only on a full moon after spinning in 3 counterclockwise circles. LOL :o ;D
My recipe for speed and reliability in my guns is pretty simple ....good clean internally coned vent, good fast short throw locks, good clean sharp flint....attention to detail...... and THEN just fill it full with 4F, shut it, and shoot. Repeat.
I've even widened skinny lock pans to add MORE priming powder surface area. If I were to get a weak spark for some reason, I don't want those couple of sparks on an Easter egg hunt trying to find a small 1/4 pan full of powder. ;)
Vent style and cleanliness, lock, and flint have WAY more to do with quick reliable ignition than any pan filling gyrations, or old "Tricks" like lick your thumb and coat the pan with a thin layer of prime.
Want to slow your gun right down?..... use a small or straight vent, swab the bore between shots pushing wet fouling around, don't wipe your flint face or frizzen clean, keep squeezing mileage out of a dull flint, a bad or slow lock or one with a long throw, then use 3F or 2F and don't fill the pan....and for good measure bank it away.
While any ONE of these factors can slow things down, add in 2 or 3 or all to any one shot and imperceptible can become noticeable. The stopwatch doesn't lie.
The question is just how much any of it means to any one person?........if you are happy with the fact that "your" gun is maybe firing .05 seconds slower than mine who am I to tell anyone they aren't happy!? :)
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HH - betcha one may also get some fine dust.
Golly gee, wonder if static electricity would set off that black dust cloud?
Nah, Real Scientific work these days sez no. And if the word "Science" is used, you gotta believe it
The following is just Lyman trying to get more money from you. They really don't know whereof they speak, no?
"Lyman #55 Powder Measure
Note: Do not use this measure for black powder. Lyman makes a similar measure for use with black powder and it has an aluminum powder hopper and brass slides for powder measurement."
And Mr. Bones - does your insurance agent know what you are about?
Suppose I should not be so sarcastic, it is not polite.
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I still am floored by the 1 lb of BP at a time ..." and they track it " !!! How would the proverbial "they" know how much you shoot ?
When shooting in some of our matches, I sometimes go through 2 or more pounds in a weekend :o
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I'm leaning toward having Marvin Kemper cone the inside of the barrel.
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I still am floored by the 1 lb of BP at a time ..." and they track it " !!! How would the proverbial "they" know how much you shoot ?
When shooting in some of our matches, I sometimes go through 2 or more pounds in a weekend :o
There's only one place in the county that I know of that even carries Goex. Judging from the price, they know it too! Here in CA, if you buy ANY powder (Hogdon, Reloader etc,) you have to give your address and drivers license number, which goes on a form that gets sent to the state DOJ.
Because Goex/Swiss is an explosive, your limited to 1 lb per purchase. So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan. That way, if I'm at the range and I run out of the cheaper powder I can use the Goex 3f.
Needless to say, not a lot of flintlocks being used out here.
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ltdann,
Who knows how many muzzleloading rampages have been prevented by this enlightened policy. :P Dear Leader Governor of California knows best, or so they like to tell their sycophants. I'm sure they tell themselves that they are preventing bombings by limiting BP among muzzleloading enthusiasts. You know, because there is an epidemic of BP-fueled bombings raging in all the other states that don't police BP ownership. :o
Meanwhile, the real crime just spirals out of control.
Sad to say, but despite being born and raised in SoCal, I will never move back. A shame, too, because there is so much to do and see in California.
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ltdann,
Who knows how many muzzleloading rampages have been prevented by this enlightened policy. :P Dear Leader Governor of California knows best, or so they like to tell their sycophants. I'm sure they tell themselves that they are preventing bombings by limiting BP among muzzleloading enthusiasts. You know, because there is an epidemic of BP-fueled bombings raging in all the other states that don't police BP ownership. :o
Meanwhile, the real crime just spirals out of control.
Sad to say, but despite being born and raised in SoCal, I will never move back. A shame, too, because there is so much to do and see in California.
I'll never get take my flinter hunting here. By 2019 the state will have gone completely lead-free for hunting. You won't be able to kill a gopher with a pellet gun without technically breaking the law.
So until they come up with lead free round ball, I'll stick with the Tikka.
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Matt / Pa brought up some thoughts that I generally agree with. All my rifles seem to like small amounts of prime and that's what I use at the range. But hunting is a whole, 'nother thing. In the bush I just dump prime in the pan and never think about slow vs fast. I just want reliability without nitpicking.
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"So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan"
That is the problem. Get some real powder.
Join a ML club. Find out what knowledgeable shooters really do for powder in CA.
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Matt / Pa brought up some thoughts that I generally agree with. All my rifles seem to like small amounts of prime and that's what I use at the range. But hunting is a whole, 'nother thing. In the bush I just dump prime in the pan and never think about slow vs fast. I just want reliability without nitpicking.
Hanshi....you should see my turkey gun! 20ga smoothbore fowler set up for straight 100% reliability. Internally coned vent drilled out to a fat 5/64" and enough 4F powder in the Chambers Early Ketland lock pan to probably take off an eyebrow ;D I stall the frizzen and close it when loading so it doesn't blow too much 3F out of the vent into the pan. Vent is in a perfect sunset position to the pan and I couldn't care less if the 4F gets into the vent intermingling with the main charge. Its just one big powdery glob but it goes off like a rocket EVERYTIME. And on a turkey gun that's priority #1.
I could probably shoot that gun hanging upside down in a tornado and it would go right off.
I have all of my guns drilled out to some degree beyond 1/16" depending on Caliber. I like a #50 or #51 bit for .54 to .58 rifles (.067-.070) ...a #52 on my .45 (.0635) .
All the way up to what some would consider "Blown Out" for my turkey gun at .0781
If you ever get a peek at Allen Martin's personal hunting rifle....(a .60cal) he has that puppy drilled out to about .080! He could probably clean the vent with his pinky finger but he said it goes off like a .30-06. ;)
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"So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan"
That is the problem. Get some real powder.
Join a ML club. Find out what knowledgeable shooters really do for powder in CA.
Do tell, what DO knowledgeable shooters in CA use? I shoot at one of the largest ranges in SOCAL and I'm the only flintlock shooter that the range officers have ever seen. Draws quite the crowd actually as most don't even know what it is. Muzzle loader club? Hardly.
I don't have a problem using AP powder for a main charge. Shoots just fine. It's a cost vs driving distance thing for me. I can drive an hour and pay $33 for one pound and burn it up in one weekend, or buy 5 lbs of AP for $16/lb and save some time and gas.
Believe me, If I could I'd mail order it by the case. But it's CA and if I get caught with more than 1 lb on-hand, I'd probably get the chair.
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"Land of the Free," , eh . I thought Ontario, Canada was bad, but I really feel for you. Where I live, we shoot almost every day, just walking out behind the house. My neighbours do too, and regularly blow stuff up just for the fun of it ;D Powder by the case, since I need to have the same lot # when loading for extreme accuracy in my 45-100 Sharps. Seriously, going through 2 to 2 1/2 Lbs in a weekend is common. Our bear season opens tomorrow, and I'll be using my 10 bore Chambers N.England fowling gun loaded with a .735 lead ball and 120 gr of FFg It doesn't have a vent liner, but is exceptionally reliable. Vent is drilled out to 5/64th's which is standard for all my flintlock guns. You may get better ignition if you drop a few grains of BP down the bore prior to loading the main charge of American Powder. If I recall correctly, the ignition temp of A.P. is higher than B.P. , which is why it's easier for the shop keepers to store and have shipped. I wish you the best of luck. [ Time to move :( ]
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Bob,
It's crazy. The black powder cartridge guys can have as many loaded cartridges they want, it's bulk/loose powder they watch. Regular powder I believe I can keep up to a total of 25 lbs.
As a result, most BP shooters (and there aren't many) do cap guns or inline. So the idea of a ML club is great, but the truth is it's more trouble than most people want.
I looked into maybe making my own, but here it's considered manufacturing explosives. That's a shame too, Florida is big firework club state and there's any number of kits available that make it easy to roll your own.
The American Pioneer plant blew up last year and that powder is now getting really difficult to find and I really don't want to go to Pyrodex for all the reasons discussed on this forum. I'm not sure if AP is still in business.
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I'm leaning toward having Marvin Kemper cone the inside of the barrel.
And when you get bored with that setup (or shoot it out), then drill and tap for liner. Easy peasy and you get to see how both work-eventually.
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Bones92...I am thinking about having a White Lightning liner installed. I hate to mess with this rifle, but given that Marvin Kemper offered to install it, I consider it a "factory upgrade".
Do it...especially if you trust the craftsmanship of the installer. Having shot with and without the liner and used both grades of powder, there is not a lot of difference in speed in the grades once it is installed but a significant difference in the use of the liner versus without.
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When I was shooting skeet at Friendship I'd shoot 9lbs of powder in seven days. Sure was fun! ;D
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"But it's CA and if I get caught with more than 1 lb on-hand, I'd probably get the chair."
You worry too much.
Clubs do group buys. People place orders. You are making a simple thing complicated.
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I live in CA and although the law as written seems to indicate that you can only have 1 lb of bp, reality is way different. I spoke via phone and email to local government entities and they all stated that sporting powder falls in a different category than "black powder" as in for blasting purposes? So there is both a gray area and a bit of confusion as to the actual law. Add to that different county and city regulations, and private and business etc... and the true answer to what you are allowed to have in your possession at any one time in CA is "it depends."
Heck just buy what you need and store it safely with a clean conscience. I have never been approached by any fed or state person regarding my black powder purchases, and I have been buying and shooting bp here for probably 30 years. Local sporting Goods stores that carry bp will sell me as many cans I want to buy-- so whatever restriction must not be on their side.
Ken Prather
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I live in CA and although the law as written seems to indicate that you can only have 1 lb of bp, reality is way different. I spoke via phone and email to local government entities and they all stated that sporting powder falls in a different category than "black powder" as in for blasting purposes? So there is both a gray area and a bit of confusion as to the actual law. Add to that different county and city regulations, and private and business etc... and the true answer to what you are allowed to have in your possession at any one time in CA is "it depends."
Heck just buy what you need and store it safely with a clean conscience. I have never been approached by any fed or state person regarding my black powder purchases, and I have been buying and shooting bp here for probably 30 years. Local sporting Goods stores that carry bp will sell me as many cans I want to buy-- so whatever restriction must not be on their side.
Ken Prather
It's got to be a county thing, when I tried to buy a pound each of 3f and 4f I got read the riot act. The one gun store in town won't carry it because of all the storage restrictions.
Whatever, I deal with it.
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Bones92...I am thinking about having a White Lightning liner installed. I hate to mess with this rifle, but given that Marvin Kemper offered to install it, I consider it a "factory upgrade".
Do it...especially if you trust the craftsmanship of the installer. Having shot with and without the liner and used both grades of powder, there is not a lot of difference in speed in the grades once it is installed but a significant difference in the use of the liner versus without.
Yes, given that it's Marvin Kemper doing the work, I'm fairly confident he can do this well.
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After looking at your photo I am of the opinion that the touch hole is in the wrong place. It may be too high and too far forward. IMHO the hole should be just about touching the face of the breech plug and centered in the pan both horizontally and vertically. It also looks like there is a hint of a raised edge around the circumference of the hole which may deflect flash from reaching the charge as efficiently as it could. IMHO a touch hole liner would be a great solution to improve ignition by repositioning the hole.
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i long ago gave up the use of 4f for the pan, gave away a few pounds of the stuff. one horn of 3f takes care of both the tube and pan. less krap to have to deal with. if yer ignition is "slow" or yer getting hangfires, it prolly ain't the powder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhHVGNbPws
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Very good video. Some novice will watch it and go some where blowing down the bbl is not allowed and get a arse reaming over safety violation.
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i make NO excuses for blowing down the barrel - it is the correct and SAFE thing to do. as a certified NRA RSO, i know the letter of its laws. in this litigious society, we have this overwhelming stupid desire to protect dumb people at the expense of the smarter ones. yes, such a practice is verboten at most NRA, club and other ranges, and in those instances i'll use a neoprene blow tube. thankfully, there are still public ranges around (and dwindling fast) where yer on yer own.
it's a libertarian thing (http://bwanabob.info/page2.html)
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i make NO excuses for blowing down the barrel - it is the correct and SAFE thing to do. as a certified NRA RSO, i know the letter of its laws. in this litigious society, we have this overwhelming stupid desire to protect dumb people at the expense of the smarter ones. yes, such a practice is verboten at most NRA, club and other ranges, and in those instances i'll use a neoprene blow tube. thankfully, there are still public ranges around (and dwindling fast) where yer on yer own.
it's a libertarian thing (http://bwanabob.info/page2.html)
Good link, pretty much how I feel about it.
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We had a BP shortage here in Western Australia last year which led to me and a "good ole boy" grinding F into FFF using a tiny little cast iron coffee grinder.
In short, never again.
I haven't twitched or sweated so much since i was in a war zone.
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Dear bones, it seems to be universal that the folks here are recommending that you DO NOT grind your 3 F . When I read your question, I cringed. Definitely not safe.
Concerning 3f and 4 f as priming powder, I shoot with the international team, and everyone is now using Null-B as a priming powder. (It is equivalent to what would be 7f) very fast and reliable. As for 4F, many shooters are using 30 to 40 grains of it as a main charge in a .45 caliber pistol in 25 meter competition. For me, I find that the excessive recoil causes me to flinch. BUT, the heavier charges do result in better accuracy in a smooth bore pistol.
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I did lay out a few pinches of 3F on a piece of paper, rolled it with a cylindrical plastic glue case, and filled a couple priming flasks with it. Did about half a teaspoon at a time. Wasn't quite as fine as real 4F (I think) but sure seems to go off nicely in the pan. Also, it dispenses much more consistently from my two priming flasks.
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Static Electricity & electrical discharges and black powder.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
and
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html
and
I removed the video as it shows BP guns not of a type allowed here- but if you are interested in watching it, the link is at the bottom of the text of the second url above.
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Daryl, that is amazing. Thanks for sharing this. I would have expected the slightest static spark to set off those granules of powder.
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In the last video - he covers what he had to do to get ignition with electricity.
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Daryl, these links make me think that the perceived danger of static discharge setting off powder is without basis. Laying out about 20-30 grains of 3Fg on paper (on a wood surface) and rolling with a glass or otherwise non-sparking cylinder does not seem to invoke any accidental ignition whatsoever.
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Grinding your 2,or 3F down to 4F is a good test to see if you are just to nuts to own black powder gun in general, IMO. Sifting it though fine screen is scary enough.
My great grandfather was nearly killed when someone who took exception to his being a successful Southern sympathizer after the civil war put shoe nails in the grain they brought to his gristmill. They struck a spark, and ignited the flour dust. This is flour dust, not a class A explosive.
Everyone of us must think out our actions completely before we act. It only take one horrific accident to put an end to the sport we all love.
Hungry Horse