AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: thecapgunkid on September 03, 2017, 01:53:16 PM
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Over there in the topic of grinding 3FG into 4FG them boys got into the topic of blowing down the barrel.
I have always objected to the ban without understanding where it came from. Did somebody blow his head off because he had a brain spasm and blew after dumping powder into the muzzle whilst there was still some life in the breech?
Did somebody who doesn't shoot come up with it because is sounded intelligent?
I don't care why we do or whether we do, but just wanna know where it came from.
Thanks and
Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
The Capgun Kid
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Good question and looking forward to see the responses. One thing I know form personal experience in BP shooting is the one's routine can easily be disturbed and with sufficient distractions it is possible to forget exactly where you are in your loading routine. Of course that has never happened to me but I have seen it. So maybe it is rooted in a safety issue. However I think I recall another point on the practice. Someone said that the process may have originated in the notion that blowing down the barrel added moisture from ones "hot air" and that might have been viewed as giving one shooter an advantage in competition as one may have been full of hot air and another to a lesser extent. So if the moisture from my breath was full of hot air and you were not so full of hot air AND if there really was some technical reason that moisture had a positive effect on the shot I would hold an advantage, therefore should be prohibited :D
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I made an email inquiry a few years ago to NMLRA asking if there had ever been a documented mishap caused by someone blowing down the barrel of a loaded gun. The reply didn't explicitly answer the question, just reiterated the rulebook rule against the practice. The theory behind the rule seems to be that if a shooter has a misfire or flash in the pan, he/she might blow down the barrel to see if maybe he forgot to load the gun, or maybe out of habit blow down the barrel because that's what they always do after the gun goes bang, and maybe the misfire was really just a long slow-fire. I dunno, people do dumb things when their minds get distracted or their routines get perturbated.
At a shoot, I support the rule because if I'm serving as a range/safety officer and I turn around and see a guy with a muzzle in his mouth, I don't want to have to guess if the gun still has a load down the barrel or not.
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The people that I shoot with. Only do it AFTER THE GUN GOES BANG!! An the ball departs the barrel. Never ever seen ANYONE blow down the barrel after a flash in the pan or anything else. If I do I will move away from that person right away an not look back. To me that's just stupid. But that's my opinion. Others may very.
When I started shooting BP the reason for it was to clear the touch hole.
But that was over fifty years ago. Never ever had any issues with it. But then again we seemed to have more common sense then.
Now I just run the rr rod down an tap a couple times. Before I reload. Oldtravler
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Blowing down the barrel after a shot goes off was common practice back in the 1970s when I first started shooting and also thru the 80s and into the 90s. Was done to ensure the touchhole or nipple was clear before reloading. There was never any problem with it. Like someone said earlier, think we all paid closer attention what we were doing back then and did not have a bunch of guys on the firing line jacking their jaws.
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Frank, that about nails it. I won't do it at a club that has the rule, but I have found that sometimes blowing down the barrel after the shot clears something lodged in the vent or touch hole.
In the trail walks I usually go on, the loading process is done without chatting with anybody.
Thanks
Capgun.
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I'm a blower, always have been, always will be. Proven fact that doing so moistens the fowling in your barrel and makes loading the next shot easier. I was still attending F-ship when they outlawed the practice. I was told that they didn't want any visiting gawkers seeing shooters putting guns in their mouths. Fine with me, I won't rifles shoot there anymore until they welcome the blowers back....cain't see anymore anyway..... ::)
When shooting skeet I usually don't blow, the fowling isn't as much an issue.
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I started blowing down the barrel when I started shooting Muzzle loaders back in the 1960's . I didn't like pouring powder down the barrel when there was still smoke coming out, and I liked the idea of clearing the touch hole. I stopped doing it when they outlawed it at NMLRA Shoots. It was a very hard habit to break. I still do it when I am hunting. One of my friends gave me a little rubber hose to stick in the end of the barrel to use if I thought it was necessary.
One more thought, there are some of the shooters that we all see on the range occasionally that are dumb enough to try to blow out a miss fire out the touch hole.
David Price
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Sticking the muzzle in your mouth was banned at our club...bad PR I guess. I have a "blow tube" I made that fits nicely into the muzzle of my target rifle and it works well. Blow tubes are a standard accessory for most BP cartridge rifle shooters.
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One more thing that I should have added, I don't do it when I just shoot one shot out of my swivel breach.
When I have just fired one shot I dump the pan on the barrel that was not fired, spike the touch hole with a tooth pick, give the barrels a quarter turn so that the flint is not lined up with the pan, and then reload.
David Price
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I'm a blower, always have been, always will be. Proven fact that doing so moistens the fowling in your barrel and makes loading the next shot easier. I was still attending F-ship when they outlawed the practice. I was told that they didn't want any visiting gawkers seeing shooters putting guns in their mouths. Fine with me, I won't rifles shoot there anymore until they welcome the blowers back....cain't see anymore anyway..... ::)
When shooting skeet I usually don't blow, the fowling isn't as much an issue.
I'm with you Mike. Have always been a blower, and I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling reloading without blowing. Always worried about dumping a load on a residual spark.
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I guess I started the practice of blowing down the barrel now more than 50 years ago. Still do it as I haven't done any kind of competitive shooting other than woods walks. It does clear the vent and softens the fouling; plus I KNOW if my rifle has fired or not....smoke is seen and a bang is heard and it kicks at least a tiny bit. While I don't actually put the muzzle on my mouth, I cup my hand and blow through the resulting funnel.
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Never saw anyone blow down the barrel of a loaded gun however did see a guy start to and he caught himself just before I yelled.
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I seem to remember a post on this forum and I think it was by Roger Fisher about why blowing was banned. There was a man and his wife at a shoot and after she got her shot off he would reload her rifle. Well one day somebody had came up and engaged him in conversation to the point he wasn't paying attention to his wife. She had a misfire and handed him the gun, assuming she had shot the rifle and it was unloaded he put his mouth over the bore to blow down it and the rifle went off. That's the way I remember it. The post was probably made in the 2001-2005 time frame but that's just a guess.
Personally I was taught to blow down the barrel to extinguish any smoldering embers back in the mid 70's and it's a hard habit to break. So I don't try anymore I just do it because it has become muscle memory.
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Yep, I do it.
Robby
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I compromise by blowing across the muzzle while cupping my hand in such a way as to redirect most of the air down the bore. Whether it works as well as putting my mouth over muzzle would I cannot say, but it does blow smoke out the vent, so something is getting down there.
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I love these blowing threads. We have them probably a couple times a year. They usually go on for quite some time, generally 3 or 4 pages.
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Don't mean to ruin the topic but I've been shooting wearing shorts lately. Can feel the air blowing out the vent when I load, which seems reassuring that the vent is clear.
Anyone else experience this while loading barelegged?
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And here I thought I was the only one left that blew down the muzzle to clear the vent. Like Hanshi, I made a funnel of my hand and blew through the hand, usually watching the smoke jet out of the vent hole.
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guilty. Love the taste and smell of gunpowder in the morning.
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I made an email inquiry a few years ago to NMLRA asking if there had ever been a documented mishap caused by someone blowing down the barrel of a loaded gun. The reply didn't explicitly answer the question, just reiterated the rulebook rule against the practice. The theory behind the rule seems to be that if a shooter has a misfire or flash in the pan, he/she might blow down the barrel to see if maybe he forgot to load the gun, or maybe out of habit blow down the barrel because that's what they always do after the gun goes bang, and maybe the misfire was really just a long slow-fire. I dunno, people do dumb things when their minds get distracted or their routines get perturbated.
At a shoot, I support the rule because if I'm serving as a range/safety officer and I turn around and see a guy with a muzzle in his mouth, I don't want to have to guess if the gun still has a load down the barrel or not.
Many years ago I saw a man blow down the barrel of a caplock rifle that had just misfired.
He said it was a frequent thing with that rifle.I told him it was dangerous but he didn't seem to care.
He may not be around anymore.
I personally sent a man off the line at Ft.Meade,Md for looking up the barrel of an M1 that
had snapped without firing. I took the rifle,recocked it by cycling the trigger guard and it
went off.
Bob Roller
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In 1982, I witnessed a fellow have a misfire, instantly drop the butt to the ground, and put his mouth over the barrel. All of us screamed at him, mostly out of horror about the consequences. The rifle did not go off, but it was loaded, and had sustained a bust cap without the charge going off. I'll never forget the dumb look on his face. Placing any body part over the muzzle of a rifle/gun, apart from the loading process, is not a good practice to get into, to the point of it becoming a habit. Just my opinion.
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Don't mean to ruin the topic but I've been shooting wearing shorts lately. Can feel the air blowing out the vent when I load, which seems reassuring that the vent is clear.
Anyone else experience this while loading barelegged?
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) Dave
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I love these blowing threads. We have them probably a couple times a year. They usually go on for quite some time, generally 3 or 4 pages.
colour me puffer
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I agree with Taylor never point a firearm of any kind at your body or anyone else's body for that matter. Early in my muzzleloading career I did it also. After seeing a hunter safety accident invoving a muzzleloader where the projectile went in under the right ear and exited top left I decided to never blow down the muzzle of any gun ever again. I know of no gain from blowing down the muzzle of a muzzleloader that is worth the risk. Tim
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It's been going on way back when the ODG were buffalo runners and even before that! Warm/humid breath softens blackpowder residue and in lieu of wiping...it assist in making loading a ML somewhat easier!
When I see rules against....I sometimes wonder???????.....just how much some folks know about shooting BP??
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........Placing any body part over the muzzle of a rifle/gun, apart from the loading process, is not a good practice to get into, to the point of it becoming a habit. Just my opinion.
Exactly!
Mole Eyes
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When I shove the patched ball down the bore, the rush of air out the vent is quite noticeable.
With my cap lock English Styled rifle, the hammer must be pulled back to 1/2 bent or the ball cannot be seated on the powder charge due to the nipple being sealed by the spent cap underneath the hammer and the bore being effectively sealed by the patched ball.
Shove the ball down without lifting the hammer and it will push right back up 6 to 12 inches.
List the hammer up, push the ball down and there is a whoosh of air out the nipple.
I do not have to blow down the bore to see if the vent or nipple is clear. When I load, I know it is clear.
Nor do I have to blow down the bore to make loading easier - it's already easy.
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Well, I guess I'll just continue to walk the razor's edge..... ;)
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First rule of gun safety..... gun is always loaded.
Second, never point at anything you're not willing to destroy.
My face ain't pretty, but it's the only one I got.
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Kinda reminds me of the first real introduction of black powder back in 79/80 the Guru he had a sorta custom rifle said you always fluffed the barrel with 5/10 grains of power before you loaded the first time. Realized shortly all I was doing was really fouling the barrel so badly I could barely load the first shot. Same way with kissing a barrel I found out they shot just as well without being kissed. Yep and I would pay to see someone to blow down the barrel of an eleven pound Hawken on a horse running flat out. Probably a lot of teeth scattered across the prairie.😊
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I always run my brass pick into the touch hole before priming. I was taught that it makes a flash channel into the center of the charge, promoting better and faster ignition. Since I pick, I don't feel the need to blow down the bore to clear the touch hole.
When I have seen folks blow down the bore, I've seen some sort of half-heartedly blow "at" the muzzle. With no "seal", I am pretty sure they aren't getting enough air pressure in there to blow anything out of a 1/16" touch hole. Do the rest actually stick their lips to the muzzle and really put pressure down the bore? Serious question.
Different strokes for different folks. God Bless, and best wishes, Marc
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Smallpatch is right. If I cannot point a unloaded gun at some one else why would I want to point it at my head, as hard as it is.
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I always run my brass pick into the touch hole before priming. I was taught that it makes a flash channel into the center of the charge, promoting better and faster ignition. Since I pick, I don't feel the need to blow down the bore to clear the touch hole.
When I have seen folks blow down the bore, I've seen some sort of half-heartedly blow "at" the muzzle. With no "seal", I am pretty sure they aren't getting enough air pressure in there to blow anything out of a 1/16" touch hole. Do the rest actually stick their lips to the muzzle and really put pressure down the bore? Serious question.
Different strokes for different folks. God Bless, and best wishes, Marc
Yes, I'll put most of a full breath from the muzzle through the touch hole, especially when the humidity is low. When I used to shoot matches the time in between relays my bore fouling would really dry out. So much so that you couldn't load for the next relay. One big puff allows me to load easily for the next relay.
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Kinda reminds me of the first real introduction of black powder back in 79/80 the Guru he had a sorta custom rifle said you always fluffed the barrel with 5/10 grains of power before you loaded the first time. Realized shortly all I was doing was really fouling the barrel so badly I could barely load the first shot. Same way with kissing a barrel I found out they shot just as well without being kissed. Yep and I would pay to see someone to blow down the barrel of an eleven pound Hawken on a horse running flat out. Probably a lot of teeth scattered across the prairie.😊
Oh, you're in trouble now. That rifle I built you was built as a blower...... :o I'll have to make some adjustments for a "non blower" on the next one. ;)
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Do the rest actually stick their lips to the muzzle and really put pressure down the bore?
That's how I do it...
Edit:
I do tend to use the "make a tube from the fingers" for blowing down the barrel now. I bashed my front tooth against the muzzle one time and that was enough for me.
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Kinda reminds me of the first real introduction of black powder back in 79/80 [/b]the Guru he had a sorta custom rifle said you always fluffed the barrel with 5/10 grains of power before you loaded the first time[/b].
Yeah - did that in the early 70's as it was written up in a gun rag/mag & quit doing that in the early days - maybe only a day after I tried it. :)
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OK, OK...so we should not think about luring some sucker in the dead of winter to putting his lips on cold iron ala A Christmas Story.
I'm guessing nobody has the specific origin of the NMLRA Ban aside from that guy with his wife?
Don't shoot yore eye out, kid, or blow on the muzzle in the winter...
The Capgun Kid
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I've shot BPCR guns for almost 10 years and of course we blow the safe way. But I am as fond of my face as the next guy so the only reason I blow into a fintlock is because I don't want a still burning ember blow my charge up in my face. Way more chance of that happening without blowing than with.
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I don't put my lips on the barrel. I make a sorta tube with my finger and thumb and put my lips on that. I have never heard of doing this to clear a vent only to extinguish any remaining embers. Any vent or nipple clearing I do from the other end.
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If you want more moisture for the fouling or to see the smoke come out the touchhole why not run a slightly damp patch before starting the reload? First rule of firearms safety is treat all firearms as if they were loaded. Second is all ways point the muzzle in a safe direction. That is why the no blowing rule exists. It eliminates several possible problems and maintains consistency across all firearms. I wouldn't want some kid at one of our ranges or demonstrations watch a shooter put the muzzle in his mouth and not understand the context. If you must blow down the muzzle use a piece of tubing.
I would note that if the 12,000 plus psi of the shot doesn't clear the touchhole you are unlikely to get it done with your 14 psi lungs!! But you might manage to blow some debris into the touchhole though..
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Mike
The rifle (Wally Nut Rifle) you made for me is about as fast of a flint rifle as I have ever shot in spite of me never having kissed her or blew my moist breath down her barrel. Maybe I don't blow enough hot air for it to work. Shot her several times last week. Brice shot her hit a gong a long way off and then tried to buy her. Not for sale. I just don't see any need to deliberately put my head and face over the muzzle of a rifle, when it works fine without doing it. But each to his own. Tim
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If you want more moisture for the fouling or to see the smoke come out the touchhole why not run a slightly damp patch before starting the reload? First rule of firearms safety is treat all firearms as if they were loaded. Second is all ways point the muzzle in a safe direction. That is why the no blowing rule exists. It eliminates several possible problems and maintains consistency across all firearms. I wouldn't want some kid at one of our ranges or demonstrations watch a shooter put the muzzle in his mouth and not understand the context. If you must blow down the muzzle use a piece of tubing.
I would note that if the 12,000 plus psi of the shot doesn't clear the touchhole you are unlikely to get it done with your 14 psi lungs!! But you might manage to blow some debris into the touchhole though..
Because it's a PITA. That's why I blow. Everyone in my old club were blowers back in the 80's, 90's and 00's. I'd suggest all of those that are terrified by my gun handling not shoot with me.
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Mike. The Wally Nut rifle fits me well. I had to show off a little with it. I'd like to say the gong was way off, but it was only 150yds. Still not a bad shot for offhand, Kentucky windage shooting.
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Mike. The Wally Nut rifle fits me well. I had to show off a little with it. I'd like to say the gong was way off, but it was only 150yds. Still not a bad shot for offhand, Kentucky windage shooting.
150 yards is a long way for me!
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It was a big gong. As Ivan Boggs used to say: "It's my lie I can tell it any way I want to." ;D One time at the Southeastern National Rendezvous at Fort Toulouse, AL we shot at a gong across the Alabama River. Looked like 150-200yds. We could see where the balls were splashing in the water and then pick out a spot on the bank that high above the gong as an aiming point. Not every shot was a hit, but hits were regular enough to make it fun. We ceased fire and waited when the water skiers came by. Amazingly, the park people said as long as we had a range officer of some type they were OK with it.
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I am a late starter at this muzzleloader game, so I didn't bring many long term habits to it.
However, I use the same rules of safety when I shoot black powder that I do when shooting the unmentionable firearms. "All guns are always loaded. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy."
That is my habit and I don't see any reason to change it when I shoot my flint or cap locks.
Ron
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I've always been a blower. That being said, I've only been shooting BP since 1998. So, I don't have as much time under me as others. IIRC, I first read about it in a book on fur trading in the 1820's, but that was in elementary school so.....
Back on point. Blowing is the reason I don't shoot with other people anymore. Went to a shoot here in '05 and caught $#*! for it and was asked to leave. Then again in '07 at a local snowshoe run/shoot. So, now if I do shoot with anybody else it's either my brother or my father and, yes they blow too.
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yet again ....
i make NO excuses for blowing down the barrel - it is the correct and SAFE thing to do. as a certified NRA RSO, i know the letter of its laws. in this litigious society, we have this overwhelming stupid desire to protect dumb people at the expense of the smarter ones. yes, such a practice is verboten at most NRA, NMLRA, club and other ranges, and in those instances i'll use a neoprene blow tube. thankfully, there are still public ranges around (and dwindling fast) where yer on yer own.
it's a libertarian thing (http://bwanabob.info/page2.html)
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Blowing down the bore seems to be quite ubiquitous. I, along with many on the forum do it. While blowing down the bore is, IMHO, quite acceptable, Do not...DO NOT suck. :o ::)
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Blowing down the barrel is a God given right.
Blowing down the barrel of a loaded rifle makes you a candidate for the Darwin award.
If you do it and it fires you could very well win the award. ;)
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If I ever attain the height of being so daft that I can not know when a rifle is loaded or unloaded.....I have instructed my wife to just drive me to the Old Vets Home....and drop me off!! :-\ :( And prior to that occasion she will already have learned that I can no longer find my way home....and will have hidden my rifles...out of sight! :( ??? ???
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In 1982, I witnessed a fellow have a misfire, instantly drop the butt to the ground, and put his mouth over the barrel. All of us screamed at him, mostly out of horror about the consequences. The rifle did not go off, but it was loaded, and had sustained a bust cap without the charge going off. I'll never forget the dumb look on his face. Placing any body part over the muzzle of a rifle/gun, apart from the loading process, is not a good practice to get into, to the point of it becoming a habit. Just my opinion.
It can be described as a possibly fatal brain @$#%.I've been told by others
that they could take my face and a bulldog's back side and tree the devil
but it's the only face and head I have so I will try to keep it intact.
Bob Roller
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I take it there are no blowing naysayers who fit shotguns to folks or have ever been fitted themselves? 8)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fg4k7EF%2Fimages_12.jpg&hash=558b59ee50bd57808e370ff10b62a91c8b4c0c1f) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FfAyG8a%2Fimages_38.jpg&hash=f2dee5a533d023761a15bd224f2ea758c63dd233) (http://imgbb.com/)
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Maybe that's why my guns don't fit I wasn't blowing down the barrel when I measured drop and length of pull. Tim
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Maybe that's why my guns don't fit I wasn't blowing down the barrel when I measured drop and length of pull. Tim
Just think how much better that Wallynut gun would shoot if you blew down the barrel! ;)
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If it got any better I'd have to sell it to Brice. He could get the full potential out of it.
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I've been hollered at a couple of times for blowin' down the barrels of my guns after takin' a shot,.... never had any takers though when I offered to give'em my gun IF they could get it to fire again without "reloading" it first. ::)
I may have a (somewhat) warped sense of humor, but I think it would be entertaining to watch'em if they were to take me up on my offer. LOL
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Interesting thread. I always figured the merit of blowing the smoke out of the barrel was to evacuate the barrel of smoke that would otherwise cling to the inside of the barrel, adding to fouling.
Around here, we have plenty of humid days, so much so that it seems to attract fouling to the bore wall. So I'm not sure how adding moisture is a good thing. I believe a muzzleloader that sits for 10 minutes after a shot with no swabbing of the bore will be harder to load in any situation, humid or arid.
Speaking of which, I kind of wish that the RSO would call for "swab your bore!" after every cease fire. So that once all firearms are clear, people have a minute to swab the bore before they are set aside during cease-fire. As it is, I always try to leave a minute or two before cease-fire is called so that I can punch the bore once or twice before the rifle sits for 10 minutes.
I'm not sure of the rule at my local club, but in the future I will probably keep a short section of plastic tubing handy for blowing down the bore.
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To paraphrase Bob Dylan: "The answer my pal is blowing down the barrel; the anser is blowing down the barrel".
Forgive me but I just couldn't resist. 8)
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Got this cousin Murphy who wrote some law . . . just can't remember it right now
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Jingles Christmas. What have I started? A lot of sage advice and opinions here, but nobody answered the question.
What event started the ban?
This tells me one thing....
We need a convention...all of us in one spot on the map where there are no hurricanes...
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Jingles Christmas. What have I started? A lot of sage advice and opinions here, but nobody answered the question.
What event started the ban?
.....
yer question was answered. it wasn't an event that lead to the NMLRA (and NRA) to ban barrel blowing, it was the natural outcome of living in an extremely litigious society where the powers-that-be (of those orgs, in particular) sought to protect the dumb at the expense of the not-so-dumb. i'm sure y'all can think of at least a few other dumb a$$ societal laws we've come to dislike if not hate.
http://bwanabob.info/page2.html
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Still think Cousin Murphy had it right
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this is an imperfect world we populate. murphy was here before us and will be here whence we depart. so what. the onus is on each of us to attempt to use our brains in a positive manner. failing to do so is momma nature's way culling out the dumb and rewarding the smarter ones, for the progression of the species. ala darwin.
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...
What event started the ban?
...
...it wasn't an event that lead to the NMLRA (and NRA) to ban barrel blowing, it was the natural outcome of living in an extremely litigious society where the powers-that-be (of those orgs, in particular) sought to protect the dumb at the expense of the not-so-dumb...
because this little video reveals the general understanding of muzzle-loaded arms by society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9s2ayNU204
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Now I'm all confused,if thats true as with Elmer fudd shooting daffy duck in the head,daffy just rearranges what's left of his face and is fine for the next scene.Why would there be so much fuss blowing down the barrel then?perhaps they should be addressing the mouse problem at the shoots :o
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Nate if we all get together at one place. Then have a convention. We would probably be classed as a serious wind storm!!! Or a buffalo ranch after all the animals had left...LOL. Oldtravler
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We on the forum are all, I trust, experienced enough to know what we're doing. I recommend that those who blow down the bore continue to do wo; and those who don't continue to avoid doing that.
Yep, Murphy is always around but is - often as not - wrong or at least misguided.
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At least give Sylvester a little credit. He was shooting a fullstock and he wasn't dropping Pyrodex pellets down it, I do think he was using precut round patches. Some will probably be put off that he didn't "mic" his patch material but it did look to be .0225 . I don't think it was the mouse , I believe he was ramming it home too hard, that compression thing , that got him .At least he wasn't using a metal range rod and, loading from a tackle box , he`s a bag and horn kind of guy . I`ve seen a few people that could take lessons from Sylvester ::)
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We all blew down the barrel years ago and for reasons many have mentioned here. If I ever get to the point where I am to stupid to know if my gun went off, I need to be put in a home. It is always some smart ass that has only been shooting muzzleloaders for a short time that will try and give you a hard time at the range. I have known a few of these guys. They have been shooting for about 6 months and they talk like they have been doing it for over 50 years. Mostly they are idiots and dangerous and should be avoided at costs. Used to be a fun time with the guys. Many of them no longer come around, because the newbies have ruined it, which is why I prefer to shoot alone. One final thing. You can't teach these smart asses anything, because they already know it all. Now I got to go to my shop and work on that York County Rifle.
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Frank
You have a problem we don't have newbies. There aren't any here.
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There's newbies here,new to builds at least and have learned much.This also includes that there's more to just shoving a ball down the barrel and pulling the trigger.But I'm humble and know I don't know everything.That said you can also have the fellow with years of muzzleloading under his belt,builds too and is a total jacka$$.He knows he knows it all and does everything in his power to prove it.This fellow will drive folks away as quick as the newbie who thinks he knows it all.The cream will always rise to the top on either end of the scale.
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To paraphrase Bob Dylan: "The answer my pal is blowing down the barrel; the anser is blowing down the barrel".
Forgive me but I just couldn't resist. 8)
Another one of my favorites from Bob Dylan is It's all over now,Baby Blue" as
done by the first generation Seldom Scene.
Bob Roller
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Joe: Take a chill pill. Tim meant that the whole bunch of us are all getting older with very few replacements coming up. Seems like all the shows are full of grey headed old men with no crowd of youngsters to fill in the dwindling ranks. I joke about a restaurant in my home town that checks IDs at the door. If you aren't 60 or over, they don't let you in. The NMLRA membership is tapering off. Kids today don't have Davie Crockett and Jeremiah Johnson to get them interested in the hobby. They have Androids and Iphones, and parents who shudder at the thought of any kind of gun.
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I don't need the chill pill,Frank on the other hand.......I was pointing out the extremes after reading his post,you have them in any group,human nature.I'm fine as frogs hair,re-read my post,thanks for the thoughts though.
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Hey Frank
Did not intend to offend you the truth is I was serious that there are no beginners in this area. When we had the last state shoot I went to we had about ten people show up. Back in the heyday we would have 60/80 shooters. This would have include a number of youths shooting their matches. I shot my first muzzleloader (a flintlock) in 1977 and have shot pretty much continuouly ever since. I personally don't care whether you blow down a barrelor not. It is your choice. Let me go ahead and say that I have as much right to my opinion as you have to yours. I have investigated several hunting accidents involving firearms some were thought to be unloaded. It isn't a pleasant sight. And a number of them involved people with lots of experience using and handling firearms. This thread asked for opinions and contrary to your thoughts many of the people that commented against the practice once did it themselves and quit. Some them are not newbies. Tim
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Frank
You have a problem we don't have newbies. There aren't any here.
I know. All the newbie shooters are at the ranges. I try to teach them. Some are receptive and I spend as much time with them as possible. Then there are the ones with a know it all attitude. Lost causes.
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Frank
You have a problem we don't have newbies. There aren't any here.
I know. All the newbie shooters are at the ranges. I try to teach them. Some are receptive and I spend as much time with them as possible. Then there are the ones with a know it all attitude. Lost causes. Most of you don't know me personally, but I am the most easy going and laid back guy around, and will help anybody willing to learn. I almost never go on a rant, but something about this just spun me up.
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Help out when you can but avoid clueless tyros. I've always shot and hunted alone but for the past few years have had to make use of a gun club range. Being retired, I can choose days/times with the fewest shooters on line. Fortunately, I still find myself alone a good bit of the time; or at most only one or two others. They often show an interest in my ordnance and I take time to tell them about the guns. I also invite them all to shoot it and a few are willing to do that.
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All of us enjoy our deadly weapons. One should, in my not at all humble opinion, always be aware that they are indeed deadly.
Human beings make mistakes. That includes all of us - both the "challenged" and the intelligent, the experienced and the tyro.
That is why there are reasonably established rules for handling our weapons.
No human being is so perfect as to ignore these.
No one.
Here are a few examples:
I. The Fundamentals of Firearm Safety
The three basic general rules of safe gun handling.
1. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction; never point a firearm at anyone or anything you don't want to shoot.
And some here think it acceptable to put the muzzle in their mouths?
2. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
II. Additional specific rules of safe gun handling Safety Rules Related to the Shooter and His Behavior.
1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
A loaded rifle in your mouth?
2. Never pass a firearm to another person, or accept a firearm from another person, until the cylinder or action is open and you've personally checked that the weapon is completely unloaded.
I personally enjoy my weapons. I also remember each and every mistake (I think) I have ever made. Fortunately the safety rules are so redundant that one may often survive just one mistake. And again, in my personal view I am very uncomfortable around armed men who do not so respect their weapons. Nor do I have any respect for a range officer who gently pats the wrist of a man who "accidentally" fired his handgun into, fortunately, his own car trunk. Next to me. The "accident" was pulling the trigger with a live round in the gun.
Is there not a limit to how Polite one must be when it is a question of mortality?
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"2. Never pass a firearm to another person, or accept a firearm from another person, until the cylinder or action is open and you've personally checked that the weapon is completely unloaded."
So many people do not know this rule - or overlook it's importance.
Of course, some people put their mouths over the muzzle.
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J.c. Kelly one other rule I added when I taught Hunter Safety.
Never Ever trust a safety when handling a firearm. It's man made an it can fail. The student's picked up on that real well.. Oldtravler
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Absolutely, OT61. Didn't mean to cover all the rules.
Daryl - some years ago I was invited to Mitsommar, in a rural area near Avesta, Sweden (from whence came our Deetroit Redwing's hockey player Nickolas Lidstrom). This delightful festival involved gathering branches for the May Pole, walking, drinking, swimming (for Mats), picking wild strawberries, singing mildly obscene ditties across the valley to the Lidstroms, playing "Brandtball" &c. The men growled when the ladies were kind enough to give me the only two drinks of actual water I had that entire day.
About 1:00 am, my friend having informed the host of my interest in firearms, Mr. Host brought out assorted rifles & one revolver for me (blood alcohol???) to look at. Very kind of him. So . . . I am in a room full of well-liquified Swedes, being handed strange European arms which I did not know how to work = was not clear on how to open the actions. I hope they were unloaded. No one got shot, for which I am pleased. Mats Segerbäck are you reading this?
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I'd be willing to bet "short started" balls have caused far more injuries than blowin' down barrels.
Where's the "reasonably established rules" regarding that?
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Personally, I think "Always know the condition of your weapon" is a better rule than "always treat the gun as if it is loaded," particularly with muzzleloaders. It is simply impossible to always treat the gun as if it is loaded, such as when loading and cleaning it, and therefore the rule has to be selectively broken to actually use the gun. A rule that has to be broken to function is a bad rule, IMHO.
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I would like to just make one more point on this subject.
Those of us that shoot and enjoy our sport are EXAMPLES to the general public. They see this activity going on and it just adds fuel to their flames and negative agenda.
I will admit that I also blow down my barrel while shooting at my private land range. Never do it at the public range.
I also admit that I have picked up a few habits (bad or good) from many years of shooting with the old timers of those long gone days. Now, I'm one of the old timers and I would hate to be responsible for giving a new shooter bad practices.
Heck! After seeing Gary Cooper as Sgt. York doing the turkey shoot, I started licking my thumb and wiping it on my front sight!! :o
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This all comes down to common sense and personal responsibility. An unloaded gun will not and can not fire regardless of whether you blow down the barrel. If you are incapable of determining whether your gun has fired, perhaps you shouldn't have a gun at all...
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All of us enjoy our deadly weapons. One should, in my not at all humble opinion, always be aware that they are indeed deadly.
Human beings make mistakes. That includes all of us - both the "challenged" and the intelligent, the experienced and the tyro.
That is why there are reasonably established rules for handling our weapons.
No human being is so perfect as to ignore these.
No one.
Here are a few examples:
I. The Fundamentals of Firearm Safety
The three basic general rules of safe gun handling.
1. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction; never point a firearm at anyone or anything you don't want to shoot.
And some here think it acceptable to put the muzzle in their mouths?
2. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
II. Additional specific rules of safe gun handling Safety Rules Related to the Shooter and His Behavior.
1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
A loaded rifle in your mouth?
2. Never pass a firearm to another person, or accept a firearm from another person, until the cylinder or action is open and you've personally checked that the weapon is completely unloaded.
I personally enjoy my weapons. I also remember each and every mistake (I think) I have ever made. Fortunately the safety rules are so redundant that one may often survive just one mistake. And again, in my personal view I am very uncomfortable around armed men who do not so respect their weapons. Nor do I have any respect for a range officer who gently pats the wrist of a man who "accidentally" fired his handgun into, fortunately, his own car trunk. Next to me. The "accident" was pulling the trigger with a live round in the gun.
Is there not a limit to how Polite one must be when it is a question of mortality?
When I clean my rifles/shotguns/pistols they point right at me. When I build guns they point right at me. In each case I check to see if they are loaded before I proceed. When I check the condition of a bore on a gun whether cartridge or ML I check to see if it's loaded then stick a bore light in and peer down the barrel, is that also too dangerous to do? ::) I know when my guns are loaded and when they are not, I check to make sure. I'm bright enough to not get my body parts in the way of the business end of a loaded gun. I'm beginning to believe it's a miracle I'm still alive...... ???
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i started out a blower but drifted away from it. Now that I am getting old and having read thru this I think I will start up again.
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The comment on the fallibility of safeties is something of which I am familiar. It doesn't involve a muzzleloader but is just to illustrate the principle that was brought up. I've just never known first hand of an ML mechanical malfunction that resulted in injury. I use to be a cop and worked with a truly great guy who was a very dear friend. He had a Ruger Security Six in a holster as he was walking up to unlock his door. Somehow the revolver dropped on the steps. Now, few guns of any kind were made that had a better safety mechanism than that model. When it hit the steps it discharged, striking him in the calf. Thankfully, he got to the hospital and no arteries or bone was hit. Still, a major through and through wound.
Of course this wasn't caused by a muzzleloader; but it just goes to show what can happen if one completely trusts mechanical safeties. The half cock? DON'T trust them.
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While I have never witnessed it myself,,, I have read reports by other shooters suggesting that under certain unusual circumstances unburnt powder can build up on the breechplug and hold a spark. They cite instances of guns firing during the process of seating a ball on the powder charge resulting in ramrod being shot up into the air or through the palm of the loaders hand . Since the guns had hammer down and frizzen open they feel a spark held in unburnt powder is the only possible explanation for the premature firing . So the concern is that blowing down the barrel might cause such a deposit holding a spark to ignite the unburnt powder and cause damage to the lips,face, and or lungs of person blowing down barrel. I have never witnessed such an accident nor do I personally know anyone who has actually witnessed this type of accident. I am only relating what I have read on other forums as food for thought.
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Anybody who is sticking the barrel in their mouth is doing it wrong.
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Firearms will never hurt you.
Unless someone who thanks they know everything..! ORRRRRR
Doesn't think when they pick them up..! To use them...Oldtravler
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Anybody who is sticking the barrel in their mouth is doing it wrong.
Maybe YOU are wrong, mind your own business. ::)
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Anybody who is sticking the barrel in their mouth is doing it wrong.
Ehhhh correction,.... anybody who is sticking the barrel of a loaded gun in their mouth is doing it wrong. ::)
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Now and again, unloaded guns do fire. Worked with a lady who lost her grandson few years back, to an empty 20 gauge
I am very impressed by those of you who always Know for Certain whether or not their gun is loaded.
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Now and again, unloaded guns do fire. Worked with a lady who lost her grandson few years back, to an empty 20 gauge
I am very impressed by those of you who always Know for Certain whether or not their gun is loaded.
What did she do, beat him to death with it? ::)
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Now and again, unloaded guns do fire. Worked with a lady who lost her grandson few years back, to an empty 20 gauge
I am very impressed by those of you who always Know for Certain whether or not their gun is loaded.
I'm even more amazed at some of you who don't know when your gun is loaded.
If in doubt whether a muzzleloader is LOADED, or NOT,.... simply drop the gun's ramrod down the bore and see how much of it sticks out of the muzzle.
All my ramrods have a very small groove cut in them flush with the muzzle of their empty bores, so it only takes about 1/2 second to check to see if any particular gun of mine is loaded (or NOT).
This method isn't "rocket science",.... so I bet even some of the non-blowers here might find it handy at times.
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Juice: you may rest assured that when your rifle fires, ALL of the powder in the rifle is burned. There is NO unburned powder left in the breech. Impossible. But what remains is the fouling from the combustion of the charge, and all the other charges you have fired since it was last cleaned. It is possible for an ember to remain in that cake of fouling, and when new powder is poured on top of it, the powder can just lay there, as there is insufficient heat to ignite the new charge. Now you seat a ball onto the new powder charge, and compress the air in the bore as you seat the ball, fanning the ember, and igniting the charge. The ramrod and the ball is blown out of the bore, many times causing injury to the loader. I have seen it only once.
This condition is one of the good reasons why folks blow down the bores of their rifles prior to loading an EMPTY rifle. Your breath contains a significant amount of water, and it is the intention of the person loading to extinguish any ember that may be sitting in the fouling at the breech of the bore. There are safer ways to accomplish this same thing: use a wet patch on a rod after each shot, or use a blow tube in the muzzle with your face off to the side.
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Now and again, unloaded guns do fire. Worked with a lady who lost her grandson few years back, to an empty 20 gauge
I am very impressed by those of you who always Know for Certain whether or not their gun is loaded.
What did she do, beat him to death with it? ::)
I gotta admit,.... I snorted some coffee out of my nose when I read Mike's reply. ;D
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O I know when my gun is loaded it is loaded all the time or at least it's treated that way whether the ramrod indicates otherwise or not. I really enjoy guns, muzzleloaders most of all I'm not afraid of them but maintain a healthy respect for them. My sons and grandsons also treat every gun they encounter as if it was loaded. Muzzle direction is always as best it can be done is in a safe direction.
As I have said before I personally don't care whether you blow down your barrel or not. That is your call. I find it totally unnecessary but oviously some of you do. I understand the practice being prohibited at ranges it goes against every rule in gun safety to do it. Ranges and range officers are responsible for everyone on the range and this prohibition just makes sense. I too having been involved in investigating several horrific hunting accidents and then reviewing every report in the state for several years find no humor in a death or serious injury from an accident. Tim
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Well Brooks obviously the kid did not KNOW how to check the firearm to see if it was loaded. Thus it cost him his life.....! Oldtravler
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Loaded or unloaded, I always know which. If I'm interrupted during loading I leave the rod in the bore; regardless, I always check with the rod again just to make sure. I also know when it has fired. A flash from the pan and a big cloud of smoke from an unloaded gun, does not come! When loading, I keep my head away from the muzzle; only after it has fired do I ever allow myself to give the bore a "puff".
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Anybody who is sticking the barrel in their mouth is doing it wrong.
Maybe YOU are wrong, mind your own business. ::)
Wow, A little sensitive aren't we. I personally don't like the taste of steel and black powder fouling. I cup my hand over the muzzle and blow into my hand. Works quite well.
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Well Brooks obviously the kid did not KNOW how to check the firearm to see if it was loaded. Thus it cost him his life.....! Oldtravler
Listen Bub, This Kelly guy that posted above also says that 95% of the muzzleloading guns we shoot are unsafe because of the barrel steel they are made out of. I don't take anything he says seriously. As always I appreciate your opinion as well, always informative.
Listen folks, it's a free country, (or used to be) I'll continue to do what ever makes me happy until I get thrown in prison for it. ;)
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Joe: Take a chill pill. Tim meant that the whole bunch of us are all getting older with very few replacements coming up. Seems like all the shows are full of grey headed old men with no crowd of youngsters to fill in the dwindling ranks. I joke about a restaurant in my home town that checks IDs at the door. If you aren't 60 or over, they don't let you in. The NMLRA membership is tapering off. Kids today don't have Davie Crockett and Jeremiah Johnson to get them interested in the hobby. They have Androids and Iphones, and parents who shudder at the thought of any kind of gun.
EC121, I think you're right. But I also think there is a chance to get more young adults into the hobby. Specifically, the late 20's through 40's... these are the guys and gals who may appreciate the calm pace of muzzleloading more than teenagers, though I do not discriminate by age when I continually lobby people to come out and try muzzleloading. I have brought at least 6 friends (and about 4-5 young boys) out to our club over the past year. None had ever fired a BP firearm before.
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I don't understand why the "non blowers" don't give precise answers to the original question posted under this topic header.
Instead, they talk about opening the cylinders and actions of guns to make sure they are unloaded before handing the weapon to another person (I'm not sure how one does either of those things with a muzzleloader). They also talk about "thumpin' the butt of a gun on the ground" resulting in an accidental discharge at half cock (or at least that's what they "think" happened), yet they can't give one single example of someone blowin' their head off when blowin' down the barrel of a muzzleloader.
Even an example was given of the NMLRA ducking the question when asked (by one of the fellas here) about the "rule" THEY came up with. Why didn't they come right out and say who that victim was and when'n where the accident happened? (if it really did happen)
I've been shootin' muzzleloaders since 1969, and I'd like to hear of one documented case of someone blowin' their head off when blowin' down the barrel of a muzzleloader.
Just one,.... ??
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Anybody who is sticking the barrel in their mouth is doing it wrong.
Maybe YOU are wrong, mind your own business. ::)
Wow, A little sensitive aren't we. I personally don't like the taste of steel and black powder fouling. I cup my hand over the muzzle and blow into my hand. Works quite well.
My apologies, please forgive. :-[
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I am completely onboard with safety procedures mentioned here.... years of Marine Corps qualification have ingrained them into me.
But muzzleloaders are not repeating arms. There is no chance of 'forgetting to eject the last round from the chamber, despite removing the magazine'.
It's very simple.... if there is smoke drifting out of the muzzle, there's a pretty good chance it was just fired. If you don't see smoke in the bore, there's no point in blowing down the barrel because either the smoke has dissipated or the gun has not been fired. Either way, you have no viable reason to blow down the bore. So if you don't see smoke, don't blow. If you do see smoke, the gun is no longer loaded.
Perhaps a catchy rhyme will help...
A bloke should blow air, only when smoke is seen there.
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it seems we went over this same topic three or four months ago with less angst.
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Well Brooks unlike you I see know humor in tragedy. You can handle your weapon anyway you want.
People that have been around muzzeloaders for a long time know(or should)when a gun is safe.
It's the inexperienced that need to be taught. So they don't hurt themselves.
Humans have a nasty habit of doing something stupid when they least expect it. That's when Murphy takes over...or the Reaper.. Oldtravler
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Juice: you may rest assured that when your rifle fires, ALL of the powder in the rifle is burned. There is NO unburned powder left in the breech. Impossible. But what remains is the fouling from the combustion of the charge, and all the other charges you have fired since it was last cleaned. It is possible for an ember to remain in that cake of fouling, and when new powder is poured on top of it, the powder can just lay there, as there is insufficient heat to ignite the new charge. Now you seat a ball onto the new powder charge, and compress the air in the bore as you seat the ball, fanning the ember, and igniting the charge. The ramrod and the ball is blown out of the bore, many times causing injury to the loader. I have seen it only once.
This condition is one of the good reasons why folks blow down the bores of their rifles prior to loading an EMPTY rifle. Your breath contains a significant amount of water, and it is the intention of the person loading to extinguish any ember that may be sitting in the fouling at the breech of the bore. There are safer ways to accomplish this same thing: use a wet patch on a rod after each shot, or use a blow tube in the muzzle with your face off to the side.
Not to be disrespectful sir but can you show me the scientific studies upon which you base your statement that I can be assured that all powder is completely burnt under all circumstances for each and every shot for all shooters ? Do you have a degree in chemistry or some related field? Have you personally conducted an exhaustive scientific study or can you cite someone in the scientific community who has conducted such experiments or is this based simply on your personal convictions ? I am nearly as old as you and I have already stated that I personally have never had a problem in my fifty years of shooting . I was only relaying what I had heard on other forums for the sake of discussion.
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Well Brooks unlike you I see know humor in tragedy. You can handle your weapon anyway you want.
People that have been around muzzeloaders for a long time know(or should)when a gun is safe.
It's the inexperienced that need to be taught. So they don't hurt themselves.
Humans have a nasty habit of doing something stupid when they least expect it. That's when Murphy takes over...or the Reaper.. Oldtravler
Is it possible for you to drop the hostility? Generally when folks call me "Brooks" they're fixin to take a swing at me.
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While I have never witnessed it myself,,, I have read reports by other shooters suggesting that under certain unusual circumstances unburnt powder can build up on the breechplug and hold a spark. They cite instances of guns firing during the process of seating a ball on the powder charge resulting in ramrod being shot up into the air or through the palm of the loaders hand . Since the guns had hammer down and frizzen open they feel a spark held in unburnt powder is the only possible explanation for the premature firing . So the concern is that blowing down the barrel might cause such a deposit holding a spark to ignite the unburnt powder and cause damage to the lips,face, and or lungs of person blowing down barrel. I have never witnessed such an accident nor do I personally know anyone who has actually witnessed this type of accident. I am only relating what I have read on other forums as food for thought.
I think maybe you are misunderstanding what you've "read on other forums", because what you are describing makes absolutely no sense.
If you drop a charge of powder down the barrel (followed by a PRB) and "fire" it,.... there is no way you can get that same charge of powder to "fire" twice no matter how much you blow down the barrel.
Now if you're saying that once a charge has been "fired" and you drop another charge of powder down the barrel THEN blow down the barrel, and that doing so might cause the second charge to go off,..... WHY would a person EVER blow down a barrel AFTER dropping a fresh charge of powder in??
The whole premise of blowin' down the barrel, is to soften the fouling from the previous shot, and to let you know the vent/nipple is open.
Some also claim that blowin' down the barrel will also help extinguish any remaining "embers" that might remain in the breech after "firing". (IS THIS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?)
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I think this topic needs to be put to rest. I am locking it.
Dennis