AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bones92 on September 09, 2017, 01:53:06 AM
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I am finally getting some pillow ticking set aside to make my own patches. I'm debating options for cutting round patches but I'm reading on various forums that square patches work every bit as well as round.
What is the general consensus regarding square versus round patches?
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Cutting round patches is a waste of time....
Rip the washed/dried cloth into strips, cut the strips into squares with shears (I use the EMT shears you can buy at Harbor Freight for $3.99) and you're done. Make a hundred patches in less than 10 minutes without any special tools/cutters.
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I cain't get square patches to shoot worth a hoot.
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I cain't get square patches to shoot worth a hoot.
If you fold them and nip the corners, two at a time-making an octagon, and then align the corners of that octagon with the corners of your bbl, then
You cannot miss!
:o ;D :o :P
Unless you has rounded bbl...
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Round or square makes no difference in my guns. I used to cut them round then tried square an saw no advantage in the extra time to make em round. Cut a few of each an see if you can see any difference
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The corners on the square patches get in the way when I start the ball. The right sized round patch is less trouble. I use a round punch and stack the cloth, so I get many perfect round patches per strike. They all are the same, so that helps a little for accuracy, I feel.
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There are times when I enjoy using pre-cut patches vs. cutting at the muzzle ( which has it's own rewards).
I have found pre-cutting ROUND patches is definitely NOT a waste of time.
My procedure: After cutting my patch material into measured strips, I use a small template and pen to draw appropriately sized circles on the material, next: cut between the circles making little squares. Now...and this is where it gets to be fun. :).. cut out each little circle with a smooth continuous motion of my scissors.
I got a really nice pair of LEFTHAND Fiskars scissors last year for a Christmas present and let me tell you, sharp scissors really make a difference..!!
Ya'll may think it's a waste of time, and please note that nowhere in this conversation am I discussing things like "Group size", "ease of loading" or "historical correctness".
Fact is...sitting in my Gun Room with the radio playing quietly in the background calmly slicing out little cloth circles with sharp scissors is a VERY relaxing way to spend some spare time. 8)
I will admit however that I keep the door closed. There's something about a crazy old guy sitting in a corner cutting out little cloth circles that doesn't need to be put out for public view. ::)
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Also, what is an ideal patch diameter for a round patch suitable for .45 and .50? I see some variation in size among factory cut patches.
There is a 1.25" hollow punch on Amazon that looks decent.
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I cain't get square patches to shoot worth a hoot.
probably cuts the crust of his samiches ;D
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Also, what is an ideal patch diameter for a round patch suitable for .45 and .50? I see some variation in size among factory cut patches.
There is a 1.25" hollow punch on Amazon that looks decent.
Start a ball in the barrel with your patch material under it. Cut it at the muzzle. Load. Shoot. Find patch. Use as pattern.
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I wrestled with this question years ago . I finally decided , just to quit using patches all together, patches are overrated , square or round. I just take a .45 RB and ram it down my.40 cal. Seals up TIGHT! One less thing to worry about.
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I wrestled with this question years ago . I finally decided , just to quit using patches all together, patches are overrated , square or round. I just take a .45 RB and ram it down my.40 cal. Seals up TIGHT! One less thing to worry about.
Where there is a will, there is a way..... :o
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Given that most .45 and .50 caliber rifles shoot the same sizes of ball, I figured someone here could recommend a patch diameter.
Failing any input here, I will order a 1.25" hollow punch, which should suffice for either caliber.
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1 1/4" to 1 1/2" is good for .69's to .75's.
1 1/8" Arch Punch will work for up to .58's and .62's.
I use 7/8" to 1" for .45's and .50's.
3/4" will be fine for .32 to .36, but 7/8" gives
more room for error in centering the ball in a .40.
roughly speaking.
I like the convenience of round patches - there are no absolutes &
to make one saying cutting round patches is a waste of time, is a silly
thing to say in my opinion.
Arch punches can be used with a HDPE or UHMW 'cutting' block for cutting
up to 10 layers at a time. Usually takes 4 or 5 hammer blows to go through
that many, but cuts 10 patches at a time.
Friend Ron uses a circle cutter he mounts in a drill press to go through an inch
of patch material at a time. The cloth is sandwiched between two pieces of ply
that is clamped so it does not spin around and rip your fingers off.
Bearing races with heavy equipment ball bearings (single patch at a time-1 blow) is
a method many people use a lot up here. I prefer an Arch Punch as it cuts more patches each time.
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Given that most .45 and .50 caliber rifles shoot the same sizes of ball, I figured someone here could recommend a patch diameter.
Failing any input here, I will order a 1.25" hollow punch, which should suffice for either caliber.
Do as Mike Brooks says - lay the patch material (lubed) over the muzzle, push the ball into the muzzle until slightly below flush - cut the material then using a ball puller pull out the ball/patch combination and measure the patch - simple pimple. I find either a square or round patch works for me. I made a patch cutter out of O-1 and put it in my drill press and cut 40 or so out at one time. I have one cutter for each caliber that I shoot.
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I cut my pillow ticking into 1.5" strips, then lay the end over the muzzle, put ball on & start it, then cut the other end off and send it down. Am over thinking this? 🙄🙄
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I've always cut square patches because it was so easy to do so. I already have the various size punches so may give pounding out round ones a try. Square patches are okay for target and match shooting, but avoid using square patches for hunting; square patches will kill anything in the bush that you shoot at. 8)
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I cut my pillow ticking into 1.5" strips, then lay the end over the muzzle, put ball on & start it, then cut the other end off and send it down. Am over thinking this? 🙄🙄
Apparently we are underthinking it.
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Don't make a hoots bit of difference if they're triangular....as long as they're cut at the muzzle!
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8614/28439704306_5750a8c97d_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kk7Vgq)PRB (https://flic.kr/p/Kk7Vgq) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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I started out cutting at the muzzle and I still cut at the muzzle. That's why we have patch knives.
This may be too simple for some but I find it makes a perfect patch every time regardless of caliber.
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Cutting a patch at the muzzle should yield a patch that is half the circumference plus 2 times the radius for a ball exactly flush with the muzzle. So for a diameter (d) of a .490 ball...
(.5 x 3.14(d)) + d, or about 1.259"
So a 1.25" punch yields a patch equivalent to cutting at the muzzle.
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Let's see, I cut patch at muzzle. Ram ball on to powder charge. Take aim an shoot poker chip at 25 yards. Good enough for me. This is all starting to get WAY to technical for me........ But carry on...See yeah on page five...Me I'm going to the range an have fun...
Oldtravler
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Let's see, I cut patch at muzzle. Ram ball on to powder charge. Take aim an shoot poker chip at 25 yards. Good enough for me. This is all starting to get WAY to technical for me........ But carry on...See yeah on page five...Me I'm going to the range an have fun...
Oldtravler
Mike , are you saying that your a member of the KISS club? Keeping It Super Simple
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I have some luck finding hole saws at pawn shops and yard sales. I then grind off the teeth and spin it in the drill press and file a cutting edge on the outside of the hole saw and some times use a diamond stone to put a fine edge on the filed edge. I usualy cut about 12 patches with these at a time.
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Yep Nate that's exactly what I'm saying.
Didn't get into this sport to become a rocket scientist... I mean really do yeah think it really makes that much difference. Maybe it does to some an that's fine.
But if I can pop a squirrels head out to 40 yards. An a Big game animals lungs out to 75-80 yards. That works for me.
Never did have any interest in punching paper targets except to sight in. Besides it tastes terrible.
If I can't eat it I don't shoot it. Except for coyotes.... me really dislikes them.. But hey whatever floats your boat. But I like it simple...Oldtravler. aka another Mike but no B
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I cut mine at the muzzle. Always have, always will.
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I cut mine at the muzzle. Always have, always will.
Started that way then found pre-cut patches were far more convenient, faster and didn't get dirty the way a strip of pre-lubed material would. I also realized that I disliked the flavor/feeling of the dry cloth in my mouth....
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Okay, I have picked up a couple types of pillow ticking, both 100% cotton, one a bit heavier than the other.
Also, my 1.25" hollow punch arrived. I've taken a few stabs at punching out patches. I tried using a short piece of 4x4" as a backer and giving the punch a few good hits. It cuts about 70% of a circle, but I think the wood is a bit too soft. Conversely, I don't want to use a metal backing (i.e. the flat top of my vise) either, as it will dull the punch.
What is the best backer? I think someone here mentioned HDPE (high density polyethylene). It has to be fairly rigid without dulling the punch.
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I would think a block of lead would work well.
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Okay, I have picked up a couple types of pillow ticking, both 100% cotton, one a bit heavier than the other.
Also, my 1.25" hollow punch arrived. I've taken a few stabs at punching out patches. I tried using a short piece of 4x4" as a backer and giving the punch a few good hits. It cuts about 70% of a circle, but I think the wood is a bit too soft. Conversely, I don't want to use a metal backing (i.e. the flat top of my vise) either, as it will dull the punch.
What is the best backer? I think someone here mentioned HDPE (high density polyethylene). It has to be fairly rigid without dulling the punch.
End-grain of a hardwood 4x4.
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Thanks, Mike and Black Hand. I'll try those.
Lead is actually a great idea. And I just happen to have some ingots.
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I think the 4x4 lumber around here is mainly pine.
But I did try using lead and it seems to work well. Plus, if you pound a bunch of rings into the lead, the surface of the lead block can be dressed up with the hand sledge.
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Okay, I have picked up a couple types of pillow ticking, both 100% cotton, one a bit heavier than the other.
Also, my 1.25" hollow punch arrived. I've taken a few stabs at punching out patches. I tried using a short piece of 4x4" as a backer and giving the punch a few good hits. It cuts about 70% of a circle, but I think the wood is a bit too soft. Conversely, I don't want to use a metal backing (i.e. the flat top of my vise) either, as it will dull the punch.
What is the best backer? I think someone here mentioned HDPE (high density polyethylene). It has to be fairly rigid without dulling the punch.
End-grain of a hardwood 4x4.
Guys, get a piece of 2" thick, UHMW or HDPE from a plastics shop for cutting patches on, using arch punches. It will cost very little and will last decades.
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Okay...What is the best backer? I think someone here mentioned HDPE (high density polyethylene). It has to be fairly rigid without dulling the punch.
End-grain of a hardwood 4x4.
Guys, get a piece of 2" thick, UHMW or HDPE from a plastics shop for cutting patches on, using arch punches. It will cost very little and will last decades.
Ain't y'all got no firewood? or saws? ;D a few inches off the end of a some bodock would be my punching surface. I already have a few bits of that laying around.
In fact, smoothed up nicely (which can be a real chore)--makes one of the finest functioning/looking food-prep cutting/chopping boards you've ever seen. I'll make a pic someday. Be warned that if you cut it off green, it will split radially-the secret trick is finding old dead, pre-seasoned/checked wood in the log to play with.
Or also, if you don't live near industry-I think that plastic referred to above would be the same as is in the plastic cutting/chopping board that's out there in the rain where I dress fish. ;)
Of course I cut at the muzzle. :P
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We had a big hickory tree fall a few years ago. A neighbor sawed in into sections to split for firewood. I got one that sits level and use it to punch felt, etc. Works great so I aim to try punching patches on it. If that doesn't work out I have an old plastic cutting board standing by.
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How many patches do you cut at a time with the arch punches?
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Ironically, there was a 4"x6" piece of some kind of synthetic material mounted to the bow of my boat... the previous owner left it on there after taking the trolling motor off.
Anyway, I suddenly remembered it, and took it off. It's a very dense plastic of some kind, about 3/4" thick. I assume it is either HDPE or UMHW. I tried punching out some patches of ticking and it seemed to work well. There are faint rings left where it struck.
The lead does work well, too.
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Lead block is traditional for cordwainers/leather workers for punching leather so would be good for cloth. As WadePatton stated, the plastic cutting boards (milky white color) works good too.
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it would be a disservice to carry a patch knife and not use it. mine has worked very well since 1969
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Jack, I don't have a patch-knife....
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Jack, I don't have a patch-knife....
Neither do I.
I carry a belt knife, a folding knife and a penny knife - no patch knife....
A patch knife must be a knife invented by modern vendors to scam people out of their hard-earned money when they already have many serviceable knives at the ready. ;)
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Used scissors in the past but this paper cutter I found really makes nice cuts and has a ruler at top for measurements!
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5745/23867411615_640fd5f6a4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Cn5HWP)Pictures 659 (https://flic.kr/p/Cn5HWP) by t410er (https://www.flickr.com/photos/23979823@N04/), on Flickr
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How many patches do you cut at a time with the arch punches?
Usually up to 10 or 12 layers, so 3 whacks, 10 patches, move the punch, 3 whacks, 10 patches, etc.
The cutting boards are too thin for me. The HDPE or UHMW (about the same stuff & is used for cutting boards) in 2" to 2 1/2" thick, is perfect.
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Converted hole saw? Grid off the teeth. Grind a bevel, sharpen on the gun polishing wheel. Run in drill press on slow speed. Back with a scrap of wood found on the floor. Fold the patching material to make it many layers thick.
I made several cotters out of different size old hole saws that I got for 50-cents each at the used tool monger.
I just cut a couple of hundred patches yesterday AM while waiting on my shooing partner to show up, 10 min?
I do prefer swaged balls with pre-cut patches. Fiddling with sprues and centering patches is annoying.
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Today I tried punching out patches; first on a the end grain of a dried section cut from a hickory and then a heavy lead plate. It worked, after a fashion, but required up to 10 blows from my "dead blow" hammer. I have two sets of punches. I was unimpressed.
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Rip and cut....
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Do whatever is best for you, just do not BS yourself, run some tests and reach your own conclusion.
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For me that's cut then cut with scissors.
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Jingles Christmas....Picky!, Picky!, Picky!
Am I the only guy who uses a loading block?
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I use loading blocks when hunting, not range shooting. On the trail, it's all from the pouch, of course, with lubed pre-cut patches - round is faster for me with punch and UHMW block.
When testing on the range, I still use a bag and horn, but also have the 'shooting box' with all the tools, hammer, drift, files, targets, stapler, other granulations of powder, different size balls and patches, different lubes, etc.
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Thanks for the reply Daryl, most of the time I get 12-13 patches from my hole saw and use a short scrap piece of 2x4 on the drill press table. I have tried the arch punches but prefer the hole saw, may be my punch wasn't sharp enough but it's a lot easier to sharpen my hole saw than the arch punch for me.
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You know, I should probably look into making a few loading blocks. Not only would it make for quick loading, but it also helps keep track of how many shots you've taken.
As it is, I am cutting patches here and there using the lead block. After awhile, the surface of the lead gets so fragmented it becomes hard to get a clean cut.
I suspect a hole saw sharpened into a round cutter is best left for use in a drill press, correct? I suppose it would be tough to control in a hand drill.
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With the hole saw I never tried a hand drill. What I do is cut strips of cloth as wide as I think I can use and fold them over about 12 times depending on how long the strips are. Then I clamp a vice grip to one corner and hold over the 2x4 and run drill press down to cut the wad of cloth. Fold another strip and repeat. The little time inbetween cuts when your folding help the hole saw cool down a little. You can run the drill and hold a sharpening stone at an angle to sharpen the hole saw. It works for me but your mileage may vary.
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(https://image.ibb.co/duEub5/IMG_1185.png)
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Clint Thompson wrote fewer stuck balls with cutting at the muzzle - interesting - haven't had a stuck ball since I learned to use .020" + thickness patches and balls only .005" under bore size along with nicely smoothed muzzle crown.
That would be about 1974, the year after I started shooting muzzleloading rifles. It took me a year to figure it out (yeah - I'm slow-sometimes :)), after understanding and adopting Ned Roberts teachings in his book, "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle".
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I have noticed that round patches don't "wad up" and make seating difficult which can occur with tight fitting square patches.
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I have noticed that round patches don't "wad up" and make seating difficult which can occur with tight fitting square patches.
This can happen if your square patches are overly large. Otherwise, this should not be an issue.
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This may be a trivial comment, but when I saw the photo of the fellow patch cutting above, I thought "I sure wouldn't cut towards my body." I realized, like anything I cut, I always cut so that the blade goes away from me. Hard lesson somewhere in my past. Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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Speaking of the size of square patches, is there a size chart of any kind that I could access that's been posted previously?
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Speaking of the size of square patches, is there a size chart of any kind that I could access that's been posted previously?
I take a piece of ticking and a ball, place both on the muzzle, smack the ball into the barrel and then remove the ticking/ball. The mark left by the ball gives me a good idea of how large the square patch should be. I cut the material about 1/8" wider than the mark. This way takes into account your patching thickness, ball size and muzzle opening when determining the size of the square patch needed.
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Let's see, I cut patch at muzzle. Ram ball on to powder charge. Take aim an shoot poker chip at 25 yards.
Oldtravler
Do you set your poker chip facing you, or edgewise? Actually, this time of year my favorite non-furry targets are hedge apples. They are easy enough to hit, and jump high and "explode" when hit. Good messy fun!
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I like the keep it simple when shooting or hunting. I learned a long time ago that meant loading blocks. It's like cutting at the muzzle, but done at home on blocks while watching TV. It's the fastest way to load the gun while hunting. It's also the least amount of separate stuff I need to carry to the range or hunt.
I made up 5 blocks with 6 holes. I never shoot more than 30 shots at a range, so that's plenty. I only carry one block for hunting. 6 shots is more than enough. All I need to carry for hunting is the loaded block, fixed powder measure and horn. I could cut it down even more my carrying measured powder loads in tubes. I do that for bear hunting to have a quick 2nd shot. Not that i've even needed a quick 2nd shot, but you never know. I could also make a 2-3 shot block to be even more compact.
The loading block has all the advantages of cutting at the muzzle without any of the hassle. A no-brainer for me.
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As Pete says above.
Only thing with a loading block, is not leave tallow -lubed patched balls in the block for years. (!)
I fired some off that'd sat in there for maybe 15 years or more, and they were Very stuck to the patch. Hard time to get them out of that patch even by hand.
Didn't help accuracy the ones I fired.
Loading blocks are the best for hunting in my eyes.
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You need to shoot more. Although I can see that happening if just used for hunting. If used for the range too they get cycled pretty fast.
Range for me means woods walking shooting knots in stumps and dead trees. it's the best kind of practice for a hunter. If I could have a dollar for every knot i've killed I could buy a new Jeep.
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One thing about loading blocks, is they should be finished like a rifle, so the lube does not soak into the wood, from the patch.
I made one once, using a piece of UHMW- our version of HDPE. It is available in a number of different colours so maybe brown is also available along with black.
It is easily cut with drills to the correct size for your patch and ball. I use a narrow square file to cut 4 knotches inside each cavity, 4 points of the compass to make pushing the ball and patch into & out of the block a little easier without excessively wiping off the lube. As well, it will not absorb lube from the patch.
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One thing about loading blocks, is they should be finished like a rifle, so the lube does not soak into the wood, from the patch...
Yup, that end-grain is really thirsty. Load it full of finish to keep yer lube on the patch. Life's too short to be pushing dry patches. :P
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I have used precut round precut square and cut at the muzzle. The playing cards,axe blades and strings can't seem to tell the difference.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdBkoEw%2FP1122034.jpg&hash=88226353767cbb97033e40d718d926e76c2ecb9e) (http://ibb.co/mdHeMb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgQ4ZMb%2FArch_Bearing_Patch_PUnches002.jpg&hash=785df6739b6c96f59150cec7f044b1f436f44f8e) (http://ibb.co/cv1s7G)
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Truthfully, the only difference I've been able to find between round vs square patches is the shape.
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Exactly! So easy to make round ones as well as being faster than using sizzors or a round wheel fabric cutter, which some people use.