AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Chris Evrard on September 12, 2017, 04:17:46 PM
-
Hey All,
I'm just curious to see if there would be any interest in this lock. It started as a Chambers Colonial Virginia, and was modified to be a bridleless lock. The idea is to approximate the lock of RCA #138 on pages 590-593 Volume II.
I also changed the frizzen spring. All casting flash removed, polished screws and bearing surfaces, nice tight fitting frizzen, etc.
Nothing is "for sale" yet as I am just gauging interest for those who may want something just a little different.
Best, CE
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeoQota%2FRCA_138_prototype.jpg&hash=f3cbb1109aad49955e764667523faab20f5f5fb5) (http://ibb.co/g0aA6v)
PS. I am a recovering machinist ;) and one of the builders for Chambers Flintlocks, and have built about 2000 locks over the past 4 years. Also, if you have anything you'd like to see, let me know.
-
I like it. LOTS. I would buy one
-
I am interested, any idea when one might be available?
Percy
-
Me too! Nice looking lock..! Oldtravler
-
I'd buy it.
-
Nice workmanship -- I like it a lot also ;).
-
Hey, I'm glad to see there are a few people who like it! I thought it would be very cool on a late-ish 18th century southern gun (or whatever!). And again, be something just a bit different than the others.
I toyed with the idea of taking the small moulding off the hammer too for a very plain appearance.
Anyhow the modifications to this single lock took me about 3 hours, which would make it a cost prohibitive lock. But if I can get together 6 commitments for this lock I think it would be worth the build, and I'd charge a little less than an hour of shop time per unit.
Send me a private message if you are in, and when we get enough commitments I'll have Barbie send me up the parts to make 'em.
Best,
CE
-
PM sent Chris
-
Would a John Manton flint lock with the sliding safety be doable? Big enough for 1&1/8 across the flats barrel.
-
I just got the parts to do exactly that modification to the Virginia lock I already have on hand....
-
PM sent.
Percy
-
Chris,
While I don't have a project soon that would require that lock, I do in fact have several projects in mind that would require changes to a Chamber's lock for which I may not be equipped to perform.
If you are looking for business in customizing locks, I suspect you might have some customers like me.
At this point in my gun building experience, I can file away to reduce and change the shape of components, but I cannot build new ones or add more metal to enlarge. You might find a niche market here.
I have in mind some projects that involve changing frizzen spring shape/size or changing the small decorative leaf design that extends from the frizzen spring screw hole (if that makes sense).
And sometimes, metal may need to be added to a cock or the tail of a lock plate. Right now, I cannot, and I suspect some builders, cannot do this.
These might be tasks that you could market.
I appreciate your posting of this lock, I hope it is successful.
Cheers, Norm.
-
Beautiful lock. Well done! God Bless, Marc
-
To be sure I'm not missing something.....the pan has been unbridled right? Anything else? I've always wanted this lock unbridled so this would be great.
-
Please don't market this lock.
If this goes on the market as a production lock, my bucket list of "upcoming builds" is gonna get a lot longer than it is now... ;)
-
Chris,
While I don't have a project soon that would require that lock, I do in fact have several projects in mind that would require changes to a Chamber's lock for which I may not be equipped to perform.
If you are looking for business in customizing locks, I suspect you might have some customers like me.
At this point in my gun building experience, I can file away to reduce and change the shape of components, but I cannot build new ones or add more metal to enlarge. You might find a niche market here.
I have in mind some projects that involve changing frizzen spring shape/size or changing the small decorative leaf design that extends from the frizzen spring screw hole (if that makes sense).
And sometimes, metal may need to be added to a cock or the tail of a lock plate. Right now, I cannot, and I suspect some builders, cannot do this.
These might be tasks that you could market.
I appreciate your posting of this lock, I hope it is successful.
Cheers, Norm.
Hey Norm,
Sure, just about anything is possible. The "one off" stuff can get a bit expensive for some peoples taste though. That being said, I have a full shop and can weld and fabricate. Just send me a pm with your ideas and we can work out whatever you may have in mind.
Thanks!
Chris E.
-
To be sure I'm not missing something.....the pan has been unbridled right? Anything else? I've always wanted this lock unbridled so this would be great.
Mike,
Yes, the pan has been unbridled. As mentioned I changed the frizzen spring to approximate the look of Rifle #138 in RCA Vol. II. The rest is just removing casting flashing and giving all the screws and bearing surfaces a polish and a good tune.
I also thought about removing the small moulding on the hammer, but ehhh, can't decide on that. I'd probably just leave it up to the buyer.
Hope that helps,
Thanks,
Chris E.
-
Hey All, thanks for the kudos!
I think I got back to everyone who PM'd or asked a question. If I didn't please let me know.
It looks like I have 3 commitments so far, so if I can get 3 more I'll go ahead and build them.
Also, thank you for the suggestions. I'm always wondering where there may be a need for something not readily available.
Best,
Chris E.
-
Chris,
Its a nice lock. But if I have a build that requires such a lock I can make one out of the Chambers round faced locks in an hour or two. So why wouldn't I just do that? I realize I am a hobby builder and I am not trying to shave as much time off a build as the "professionals" are. So it appears to me that the key is how many would be sold to the professional/for-the-money builders.
Just my thoughts on the question.
Best Regards,
JMC
John Cholin
-
I would like to see a pic, of the working side of the lock
-
I would like to see a pic, of the working side of the lock
Not my place to say, but it's a standard Chambers Virginia lock on the inside.
-
Chris,
Its a nice lock. But if I have a build that requires such a lock I can make one out of the Chambers round faced locks in an hour or two. So why wouldn't I just do that? I realize I am a hobby builder and I am not trying to shave as much time off a build as the "professionals" are. So it appears to me that the key is how many would be sold to the professional/for-the-money builders.
Just my thoughts on the question.
Best Regards,
JMC
John Cholin
If you can, and want to and have the time, I would completely encourage you to do so.
After building several thousand locks I still couldn't do this mod and tune a single lock in 1-2 hours. It took me 3. The only way I can get that time down is to do multiple locks.
I know several builders who I do work for that just don't like the metal work much, or who don't have the necessary drills, reamers, taps, etc. I am the opposite as it is the wood work that kicks my butt all the time.
Best,
CE
-
I would like to see a pic, of the working side of the lock
As Mike said, the internals are just plain ol' Chambers Colonial VA / English pieces. I'll snap a pic though and put it up this evening.
Best,
CE
-
I would like to see a pic, of the working side of the lock
Sorry it took me an extra day!
Best,
CE
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcN99KQ%2FRCA_138_prototype_2.jpg&hash=ad91a4bbfc86350bccbcd874fba2ddb9f8667a05) (http://ibb.co/kqg0R5)
-
Chris after reading some of the posts. My opinion is that I get a fine tuned lock from someone who knows how to REALLY make them work.
You just don't get that kind of expertise with out paying for it. But that's just my opinion. Others may very.
You can have the fancy gun with all the bells an whistles. But without that lock, vent liner, trigger an a good barrel it's just an average gun.
Just my thoughts. Oldtravler
-
:ooh yeah, I'd be interested in one
-
Hey All,
Talked to Barbie last week and parts should be on the way. Will keep everyone posted.
Best,
Chris E.
-
Chris - Do ya have room to add one more?
-
Hey All,
I just rec'd parts today. So, it'll be a few weeks as I am finishing up a batch of Queen Anne's and I have about 60 Silers to build but I'll keep updating here as the build progresses.
Thanks!
CE
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk9uKbG%2Ffirst_batch_parts.jpg&hash=e40015590ab255d757db39a074d43fddb8f3d30c) (http://ibb.co/f0GnVb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk9uKbG%2Ffirst_batch_parts.jpg&hash=e40015590ab255d757db39a074d43fddb8f3d30c) (http://ibb.co/f0GnVb)
-
Very exciting. Thanks for doing this, Chris.
-
I am a little stalled on my Siler build right now as we are waiting for parts from the foundry etc., so I had a little time to work on the bridleless project this morning.
After straightening everything up and reaming the main tumbler axle hole it was time to drill all the other plate holes. I have a jig I made with hardened bushings to do this job
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnPxQRR%2Fbcb1.jpg&hash=fe647f23446d194fe49d47907a16fe37d7e4df28) (http://ibb.co/mz5qt6)
Next I like to set the frizzen spring so I can tap all the threaded holes at once. This is the jig I use to set the correct height on the spring and spot it for drilling.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhgkJfm%2Fbcb2.jpg&hash=cf4f61f285499cbc6da951dd70440a1121e9877e) (http://ibb.co/f0SmY6)
Once all the threaded holes are tapped I like to mill the pans in prep for frizzen fitting. So I set them up in the mill and use a 1/2 inch carbide end mill to get a skim cut on the pans and make them nice and flat.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fbv1r0m%2Fbcb3.jpg&hash=9346fdeb2d5f25d1b6117fee8b2010e34fe0b992) (http://ibb.co/gK5Jfm)
After that it is time to go heat up a can of soup for lunch, so catch ya later....
CE
-
Well, after a whole day of filing, fitting, grinding, and filing. And filing.
And filing.....
Starting to get somewhere. I got at least another day of fitting and filing, but they're roughed in anyhow!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcnWXQm%2Fbcb4.jpg&hash=faa5ae16b0ee0f9b77161126d6a455855cff690a) (http://ibb.co/moexrR)
-
Well, only got a half day for this project yesterday. Four of them are pretty well fit. Two to go. Then to the internals.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnCgJGR%2Fbcb5.jpg&hash=91e57b6c4d34692b76c49a75a7f6fd15e2295d2d) (http://ibb.co/me6kwR)
photoupload (http://imgbb.com/)
-
Kinda cool watching these progress along ;D
-
Kinda cool watching these progress along ;D
Nice. I am hoping these updates are interesting for at least a few people. I know most of this is common knowledge to the ALR crowd but again, hoping it is interesting for some!
CE
-
At long last the plates with frizzen assys are finished.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjobCvm%2Fbcb6.jpg&hash=258e4d3c249b9fd822e88b71cbae1d1cf9b1f612) (http://ibb.co/dWFi1R)
I didn't take a bunch of pictures on tumbler prep. I can do that sometime if anyone is interested, but it is drilling, tapping, clearancing, smoothing etc. For a project like this, after hardening and tempering I put them back in the lathe and polish the axles with paper. You have to walk the line between cleaning up all the machine marks and going too far undersize on the axles. It also ruins the pretty blue color from tempering, but them's the brakes.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiPcKam%2Fbcb7.jpg&hash=1de987fcd028d04db5758718b4f05a13cb0d34cf) (http://ibb.co/eX8QFm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfFuhvm%2Fbcb8.jpg&hash=2395e4da34ecc16933a0cab281dead2405088cab) (http://ibb.co/hnUFFm)
Then I use a cratex type wheel to polish out the mainspring ramp. It makes for a nice smooth cocking action.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjGFBo6%2Fbcb9.jpg&hash=5f85d526593634fecac89b0691f52aadeab0ea7e) (http://ibb.co/jPy9am)
-
Got a little out of order here. On this batch I noticed that the frizzen springs are scratching the face of the locks. These springs were not originally intended for these plates so I just clearanced the back of the arm a bit. Try to make it all work freely and look good doing it!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdVNwMR%2Fbcb10.jpg&hash=9a09787dd3fb7c2bcbbfe4a11de39ec7b2aecfbb) (http://ibb.co/b4meam)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk0iWo6%2Fbcb11.jpg&hash=252da2ee0d45d407d0e346f4faaff6856b4b3c9e) (http://ibb.co/fVfpam)
I also like to smooth up the inside of the plate for anything that touches it. After a 180 grit finish I'll use a strip of scotch brite (at top) to knock everything down and blend it in. The result is a nice consistent, smooth inner plate surface. The bottom plate is at the 180 grit stage, the top plate has been scotch brited.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcxUJ1R%2Fbcb12.jpg&hash=9768941897178cf59e77b700512f3502d8b829af) (http://ibb.co/hMZkgR)
I also didn't go too much into bridle prep with pictures, but once they have been rough prepped, drilled, reamed, countersunk, etc. I'll polish up the inside with a few grades of paper so anything that touches will glide.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiUdp86%2Fbcb13.jpg&hash=54943d0a13892289194d5d01db34ee9e5aa93e8e) (http://ibb.co/b16y1R)
Thats all for now!
CE
-
Coming along very nice. Thanks for taking the time to post the progress. __ Percy
-
Fine looking work but it makes me tired to think of it.
Bob Roller
-
Thanks for the updates, Chris. I didn't know what a cratex type wheel was and had to look it up. You learned me sumpin new!
Locks are looking good.
-
Hey All,
Got all the "pieces parts" together yesterday for assembly.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fff6i5m%2Fbcb14.png&hash=ee19ed1e189ce747eac66599ddadd82e88beb70e) (http://ibb.co/icZsy6)
Then after much knashing of teeth and.......well you get the idea....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjHZLkm%2Fbcb15.jpg&hash=095ccca559d117d348adb45a7d079744e9008fc4) (http://ibb.co/etVt5m)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fd3jaJ6%2Fbcb16.jpg&hash=677f9744c592721e6b4da92ab0a163243c299c57) (http://ibb.co/iSo2y6)
-
This batch really turned out great. All the locks operate nice and smooth. They have plenty of horse power and throw lots of sparks. Again, touching surfaces have all been prepped or polished, casting lines removed as best as I can (I leave them on surfaces you will be putting a draft on for inletting), frizzens have been re-timed, the springs have been relieved so they don't rub against the plate, the sear arm is similarly relieved. The tumblers have been set up to have minimal creep and a clean release. And I'm sure I am forgetting something here, but I'll come back and update if I think of it!
Here you can see the slight relief at the tip of the main spring and behind the sear arm.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkHmBrR%2Fbcb17.jpg&hash=7a48b6223f704faa31752cb4b4f4a31a2ca87e5a) (http://ibb.co/btVt5m)
Here you can see the nice even space between the hammer and lock body.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkiRBrR%2Fbcb18.jpg&hash=5ee824be8de9f903332dca0cf90ac2cc044556d5) (http://ibb.co/ck2Ud6)
Here is quick video of a spark test. We've got a nice shower of sparks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpWCPYuhctA
Best,
CE
-
Haha. Tried the slow motion feature on my phone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MqkrN9fzkE
-
Great work.
-
They look great. Throw some good fire too
-
My lock came in today an will say Im very pleased with the results. This lock is SMOOTH an I looking forward to it being put in a good ole iron mounted southern rifle. Chris does some excellent work
-
My lock came in today an will say Im very pleased with the results. This lock is SMOOTH an I looking forward to it being put in a good ole iron mounted southern rifle. Chris does some excellent work
I am glad you are pleased! Thank you too Allen,
Chris E.
-
PM sent...............
-
Got my lock a few days ago. Very nice job Chris, smooth as silk and really throws some sparks. Got a few more parts to get and the build will start.
Percy
-
Got my lock a few days ago. Very nice job Chris, smooth as silk and really throws some sparks. Got a few more parts to get and the build will start.
Percy
Outstanding. I am glad you are happy! I look forward to seeing your build.
Best,
Chris E.
-
Chris: I really appreciate the photo sequence showing your work technique.
-
Would a John Manton flint lock with the sliding safety be doable? Big enough for 1&1/8 across the flats barrel.
A Chambers Late Ketland with Manton Style internals would work for a John Manton Rifle.
Tom Dawson had a cased one at Friendship and I looked at it closely.The mechanism was
simple,all "business"with no fancy filigree work and very similar to my own version I used
in several of these locks which is the same as my Hawken cap locks used.The slip and slide
safety can be incorporated in this as well.
Bob Roller
-
Chris: I really appreciate the photo sequence showing your work technique.
My pleasure! I know it is redundant to most of the folks here, but I was hoping some my find it interesting.
Best,
CE
-
Chris, Thank you for the post, for a new guy like myself, it answers some questions that I've had!
-
Would a John Manton flint lock with the sliding safety be doable? Big enough for 1&1/8 across the flats barrel.
A Chambers Late Ketland with Manton Style internals would work for a John Manton Rifle.
Tom Dawson had a cased one at Friendship and I looked at it closely.The mechanism was
simple,all "business"with no fancy filigree work and very similar to my own version I used
in several of these locks which is the same as my Hawken cap locks used.The slip and slide
safety can be incorporated in this as well.
Bob Roller
WHAT became of a fine lock from Canada by John Clark???I saw him about 8 years ago
at the CLA Show in Lexington.Nothing Germanic about it and it seems to me that the
L&R Durs Egg is similar to the Clark but didn't have any logo cast into it.The lock makers
name should be INSIDE the lock,not on the outside.
Bob Roller
-
Bob, I have a set of castings of the Clark English lock. It IS almost a dead ringer for the L&R Durs Egg.
-
Chris
Are you the guy that assembles the late Ketland locks for Chambers?
-
Chris
Are you the guy that assembles the late Ketland locks for Chambers?
No, I do the Early Ketlands. A different builder (maybe builder(s)) does the late model.
Best,
C