AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Blacktail on October 24, 2017, 12:27:51 AM
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Last week I completed my .58 Chambers english sporting rifle and today did some load development and sight in. I fired a total of 26 rounds. She seems to like a tight patch and ball combo with 110gr of Goex 2f for both the charge and prime. I'm pretty confident things will come together and we'll be killing deer in no time at all. It was quite satisfying to shoot my second build and see some groups come together. On the negative side of things, I used up four black english flints to get those 26 shots.
I had inconsistent results with hammer fall and/or frizzen movement, and sparking. There were a couple hangfires but overall ignition (when it happened) was pretty fast. However there where lots of times where the gun would not spark at all. I ended my range session early because I couldn't get the lock to function. I was on the verge of pulling the ball when it finally went off the last time.
Oftentimes the hammer would fall and fail to open the frizzen completely. This problem developed after about 8 or 9 shots and only got worse. I got 6-10 shots per flint. I need to figure out knapping. When I tried to do so with a little brass hammer I utterly destroyed one of the flints. Also, the trigger pull on this sucker is heavy! I understand trigger pull is a function trigger placement in the stock, but hopefully I can fix it somewhat.
1.) Do I need a new mainspring or frizzen spring?
2.) Anyone know a tutorial or other info on tuning the lock in order to lighten a 300lb trigger?
3.) Any other ideas?
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Send the lock back to Chambers and describe the problem(s) you're having with it. I had to send one back a few years ago and got it right back in no time. They are truly great folks.
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did you try flipping the flint over?
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Where does the trigger bar contact the sear in relation to the trigger pivot pin? I like mine almost level (the pin) with the sear and about 3/8" + or - forward of the sear.
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You’re tightening the Dickens out of the flint in the jaws? Any movement destroys flints fast. You did not say if the flints are breaking or dulling. Any digging into the frizzen?
I’d make a fake flint of wood with one flat side and a beveled edge. Wide as the frizzen and long enough to be 1/16-1/8” clear of the frizzen on half cock. See how it flips the frizzen open when dry firing. Bevel up and bevel down. Then shorten it a tad. Learn how short and how long a flint will work.
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I tried the flint bevel up and bevel down, it didn't seem to make a difference. And yes, I tightened the heck out of it. Even buggered up the screw torquing it down.
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I second the send it back to Chambers suggestion. Put a little dab of grease on the frizzen foot where it contacts the frizzen spring. I also prefer an early Ketland over the round faced English lock. Tim
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Remove the lock and check the mortise to see if the mainspring is dragging on wood inside. If so, remove the wood and try again.
Are you using leather or lead to clamp your flints? Why are you tightening them so much? The LEATHER flint wrap should be doing all of the work without having to overtighten.
Is the cock bearing on the stock wood from overtightening the lock screws, especially the rear one? All I'm saying is, something is amiss...this rifle should fire without any of the issues you are experiencing. Sending the lock back to Jim without diagnosing the problems is a waste of yours and his time.
Did you drill out the vent hole to 1/16"? I could go on...
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I thought the mainspring was clear but that's a good idea, I'll check the mortise for contact with the spring. I'm using leather and tightened it because I thought the thing had to be farmer tight. There's no contact apparent to me. The gun has a white lightning liner.......which leads to another question: do you guys pick the vent after loading or leave it be with the powder granules visible in the hole? Please sir, go on......No one related to me has fired a flintlock since about 1830 near as I can determine and I don't know anyone else who does.
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You might also want to check to see that the sear isn't bottoming out against the wood in the bottom of the sear hole, this could cause some extra pull weight.
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If I see powder at the vent hole, PERFECT!
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Where are u located? Someone may be close enough to help.
I suspect your flint is too short. Provide pics of lock at half cock frizzen closed.
Another w cock in fired position and frizzen open.
TC
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Does the lock function reliably out of the gun? If so, you have something in the lock mortise that is impeding proper function.
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Frizzen probably needs oil.
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Don't forget to lube the internals as well.
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Sometimes the lock geometry is such that if your top side leather flint cushion juts out a bit it can move the frizzed out of the way just as the flint engages, rendering you sparkless.
Robin
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It sounds like the edge of your frizzen is dragging on the barrel. Loosen the bolts that holds the lock on and try it. You can hone the frizzen edge to get a few thousandths clearance. I had that problem once because the lock was inletted slightly too deep.
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Another thing you might want to check is the lock perpendicular to the barrel flat? If the lock is leaning in towards the top your frizzen might be dragging on the side barrel flat.
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I greased the mainspring and found there's some contact with the wood at its bend. I'll remove some of the wood and have another go at it. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. What's a reasonable number of shots to expect from one flint before it needs knapped or replaced?
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I usually get 50-60 before knapping and at least a 100 before replacement.
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Sometimes a flint will break or shatter first shot, other times 5 to 20. Most flints will last as long or longer than a tin of caps lasts a cap-lock shooter. Yes- you will have to nap it a time or two and/or adjust it's length in the jaws of your cock. :-[
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I made it to the range yesterday and wanted to provide an update. Coating the mainspring with RIG grease revealed the curve of the mainspring was contacting the wood in the lock inlet. It was very slight, but there nonetheless. I relieved the necessary area and that seems to have eliminated the lock's function issues.
110 gr of 2F gives good accuracy and 1530 fps. The problem with the heavy trigger pull still needs fixing. I'm finding I can only concentrate for a limited number of shots before I start flinching while trying to make the gun go off. Priming with 2F varies from pretty good to noticeable delay. Then again I have no point of reference about how fast ignition should be, so that's another thing to investigate. Thanks for all the help fellas.
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The 110 grains of 2F could be the flinching problem. Even if you don’t think you’re recoil shy, your body will try its best to save you from yourself. I would go to 3F for priming, and see if that helps.
Hungry Horse
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I'm going to disagree with my brother here, but I think if you dropped down to 80 - 85 gr. of FFg GOEX you'd have a happier rifle/shooter relationship. You have to get past the modern tendency to magnum-ize your muzzleloader. Remember that the .58 cal ball is already as big upon entry and a .30 cal modern bullet is when it is spent. So you don't need the velocity you might be thinking you need.
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Thanks for the perspective. I'll experiment and look for accuracy with lighter loads using different patch/ball combos. Recoil with 110 grains seems pretty mild to me. Certainly less than the .375 H&H or 9.3x62 I usually shoot without issue. The main thing I'm after is a decent trajectory for hunting. The flinching seems to be my body running out of patience while waiting seven lifetimes for a surprise break of the trigger. This is reminding me of how little tolerance I have for a sucky trigger.
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i'll see if I can give you some help on your trigger pull. ALL lock makers, for liability reasons, use sear springs that are way strong. A sear spring only has to be strong enough to positively push the sear into the notch. You can try tapering the spring's lower limb from the bend to the end; reduce the width of the spring; retemper at about 850F to soften the spring. Look at the lock geometry. Place the lock at full cock. A line that passes through the center of the tumbler axis and the full cock notch should be perpendicular to an intersecting line drawn through the center of the sear screw and the full cock notch. If this angle is greater than 90 degrees the lock will have a very hard trigger pull because the mainspring will cam the sear nose upward into the notch. The trigger would have to overcome the power of the mainspring to move the sear nose down. I had a Chambers Delux Siler recently that had the sear pivot so far off 90 that the lock could not be fired. I contacted Jim and was told they, again for liability reasons, purpously drill the pivot hole at a greater than 90 degree location. He recommended stoning the full cock notch to a more "open" angle. I didn't like that answer and fixed the problem by removing the sear nose and affixing a new one that was about .015" longer to correct the geometry. I'm not knocking Jim's locks, I think they are great but it's another reason I consider ANY lock to be a "kit" that needs smithing.
Hope some of this helps.
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If you need flatness of trajectory, as in having to shoot over 100yards, sometimes well over (something the lads from back East have trouble visualizing) you will need a decent load.
110gr. 2F in a .58 is NOT a heavy load. 85gr. 2F should, however get you about 1,320fps. That is a good load for shooting little Eastern deer at 50yards. It is not suitable for hunting in the prairies
where your shots might be 120 to 150 yards. I've owned more than a few .58's over the years. With the .575" balls I used along with the .022" denim patching I am prone to use, I needed
120gr. 2f in my Zouave to get good ie:2 1/2" accuracy at 100 yards. My .58 Hawken that Taylor built me, would not shoot less than 140gr. and give the same accuracy. With 100gr. it would not
stay in your hat at 100yards. Accuracy at 50 yards was suitable for deer, but not good enough for further out. Something the target shooters ALL know, but is difficult for some others to
understand, is that if you want to shoot accurately at longer ranges, you have to use more powder. Out West here, it is a rare thing to have the terrain to allow stalking much closer sometimes,
than 150yards. The .58 will easily take game at that range- but - you will need to feed it to do so.
Learning to follow through due to slower lock and barrel time, is MOST important. ML's kick a LOT less than the larger smokeless counterparts you noted, especially with only 110gr. 2F (ie: big
game rifles).
This is my long range load. It kicks a bit.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fef3Nhb%2Fcid_60_C1_E34_C_7_AC8_4_D74_9_E25_C4_D1204_C0_E3_Alocal_zpse9583bea.jpg&hash=e889fe8dde4b600bc5b778f58ff9b23a81293704) (http://ibb.co/fDev2b)