AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Mauser06 on November 23, 2017, 09:18:50 PM
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I shot my 62cal smoothbore yesterday for the first time on paper.
I only have .600" swaged balls right now..they will not fit down the bore with a patch.
With 105gr of 2f goex and a thin (1/8" I believe) cardboard type wad between the powder and ball and over the ball I produced this..
(https://s20.postimg.org/m5nt61tpp/IMG_20171122_151924201.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ykal6dl7t/)
To be honest it's not a great representation..I realized my target choice was poor for my sights.
That's a 3" group or so at 50yds.
I don't know smoothbores and what to expect or what to accept accuracy wise.
Any input? I'd like to find some .585 or .590 balls and patches.
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Sometimes a felt wad works as good as a patch, if ball is close to bore size.
Greased or lubed that is, it creates a nest for the ball to sit in and keeps it central in the bore.
Richard.
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3" at 50 yards is very good for a smoothbore. We've done this (1 of LB's 20 bores), with 3 different people shooting the gun, in testing, a 6 shot group of 3"- very round- almost perfectly so.
Mine won't do 3" at 50yards or doesn't seem to want to. I suspect I need more practice with it and maybe need to remove the choke, but it shoots shot so well, that isn't going to happen.
My flinter smoothbore will shoot reasonably well out to 28/30 yards, though.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiduECm%2FP3062077.jpg&hash=23f9e6666c737f98fe9c45aac0f823c397f4b404) (http://ibb.co/cMYkJR)
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Mauser06, about 2.75" to 3.0" is about the best mine will do at 50 yards for 3 shots. The bore is tight in mine as well, but not quite as tight as yours. This is with a .600" lead ball and .015" patch. With a WW .606" ball seated on a lubed wad, 5 shots stay in about the area of 5"-6" or a bit less. That's under pie plate size and good for 50 yards. I'm sure that with a .610" ball my accuracy would be about what you get. Yours is good accuracy, both gun and you.
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Thanx all!
Didn't know what was realistic to expect.
I really believe with a different target I can likely squeeze it down a bit. I've read with smoothbores that you'll get flyers once in a while for no good apparent reason..
I have no issues hunting with how it's shooting now.
A white/orange target and a highly polished brass blade just didn't mesh well. It didn't dawn on me to shoot just my brown cardboard till I was out of balls lol. I can see the sights really well on it.
The barrel was a Colerain turkey barrel...I had the choke taken out and a jug put in. So I'm just getting into the smoothbores and balls.
I will be deer hunting with it this winter.
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That sure is a lot of powder, but a 3" group isn't a bad group @ 50 yards
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Lots of powder, and no patching is the secret nobody wants to hear. I would not put anything between the powder and ball. Hold it all in place with a piece of wool blanket, or some tow.
Hungry Horse
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I was waiting for you to tell me that again!
From what I've read on here, it sounded like bare ball loads usually shoot better with extra powder behind it...
Best reason not to mess around much more is it seems to shoot straight... and my sights already shoot how I like with my turkey loads. That's a win in my book!
The vast majority of my deer are under 50yds with a Flintlock so a 3" or so group doesn't worry me.
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Hungry Horse, what would you consider for a powder range loaded like that??
I'm open to anything. I love shooting and experimenting. I will certainly try any suggestions!
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Although I have had decent luck (for a rubbish off-hand shot!)with a wad and no patch, a pal in England recently took gold with his original Brown Bess musket, using a lower than usual charge and a patched ball.
Here is his target, 13 rounds, ten best to score. Shot at 50 Metres, or 55 yards, off-hand . Score 96.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdxGef6%2FBrown_Bess_96_Copy.jpg&hash=82223873086a1f89ba6ec87e3f88500850384a95) (http://ibb.co/kmDgtR)
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Mauser06;
You are in the ballpark for the powder charge. You want to create a cone of hot gas around the ball that keeps it from contacting the barrel as much as possible. I use a ball in the .590 to.595 range in my twenty gauge. My gun was built from an old shotgun barrel and the bore is .620, which is a little bigger than most modern muzzleloading twenty gauges. I like 2F, but have used 1F as well. You want to push the ball out the barrel, rather than blow it out the barrel. The round ball will fly true until the velocity bleeds off and the ball loses its stability. You may be able to extend the accurate range by bumping up the powder charge. Felt recoil will be minimal because the gas is not trapped, and danger to the gun is minimal for the same reason. You will find the gun dirtier than you have ever thought possible though. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
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Pukka, I figured that real low charges may shoot well too..I haven't tried them..but had that hunch.
Hungry Horse, thank you! That's good information. Makes sense. Interesting you shoot a SMALLER ball. Your setup is probably looser than mine. Mine will drop down the bore..but it's pretty close. I figured my bore must be .610". My balls are .600".
I enjoy shooting and experimenting. To me, that's a big part of my love and addiction to Flintlocks. Trigger time also equates to a more accurate shooter. It's almost like archery..I can always shoot "OK". But when I'm shooting my Flintlocks regularly, I shoot them much better.
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Although I have had decent luck (for a rubbish off-hand shot!)with a wad and no patch, a pal in England recently took gold with his original Brown Bess musket, using a lower than usual charge and a patched ball.
Here is his target, 13 rounds, ten best to score. Shot at 50 Metres, or 55 yards, off-hand . Score 96.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdxGef6%2FBrown_Bess_96_Copy.jpg&hash=82223873086a1f89ba6ec87e3f88500850384a95) (http://ibb.co/kmDgtR)
Interesting picture Richard - those look like .45 to .50 calibre holes to me (smaller or same size as your his tips). I could easily be wrong, but I think someone is pulling your leg. I've never seen a Bess less than 11 bore, ie: .75cal. Those make huge holes, especially with tearing using small charges of powder.
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Daryl,
The target is the Concours, (French) target.
It is much bigger than the standard B 17 target, See the size of the hands compared to the target??
No -one is pulling my leg. The gent in question has taken gold in International and National shoots . (Yes it Is recorded.), and had a close run at times as others can also shoot well.
Please do not say "Interesting" as we know what that means. ;)
It is not very often that I get narked, but if you Look at the size of the fingers, you can see that they'd go straight through those holes.
The Brown Bess is a .760" . He also shoots musket -bore Percussion and has scores very similar.
I would Not post anything here that was not right.
Richard.
See this thread, for the Concours target and such;
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/proposed-bmf-international-percussion-smoothbore-m-t20015.html
See also;
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/anyone-out-there-with-a-better-target-from-a-muske-t22207.html#p185323
The above shows the target and similar, shot with .75-.76" bore muskets..
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Shoot all the combinations you can think of (10 shot groups) and save the targets so you can compare later. You will invariably get flyers so more shots will give you a better representation. Besides, shooting is fun. :)
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I've never owned a smooth bore. I had no idea they were this accurate. I always assumed everybody shot buckshot out of them.
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I've never owned a smooth bore. I had no idea they were this accurate. I always assumed everybody shot buckshot out of them.
This has stirred a thought in my enfeebled brain.I wonder if ANY one has ever made
a muzzle loading paradox style of barrel.A long,gradually tapered bore with the last
6 inches rifled.It could be done with a rifled barrel and careful reaming so the patch
might stay with the ball during transition from smooth to rifled.
Bob Roller
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Pete,
If I did the shooting it'd be as bad as you thought! LOL!
These blokes take it rather seriously, and wear a shooting jacket, like a straight jacket I think...never had one myself.
Bob,
If the powder charge was up these, a barrel as you describe would work I think.
When I used the musket with 120-odd grains of 2F, (what I had) the.750 " ball expanded and filled the bore that measures .760", so if your theoretical barrel was 'choked ' all the way to the rifling, the patch would have to stay put.
I was using a thick wad below the ball and a thinner on top when I noted recovered balls had an 'equator' or flat section around their girth.
Richard.
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I will most certainly take your word for it, Richard, however I did look at the fingers which are rather pointy compared to my 10 thumbs, thus figured the holes smaller, obviously, than that are.
I did observe and I do understand the target size. I'm not new to this sort of thing, called target scoring.
I was able to shoot a decent target at 50 meters with Taylor's 1742 Bess - the 10 bore, using a .735" ball and close to a .030" patch, but was only 5 shots & that was MANY years ago.
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Smoothbores can certainly be amazingly accurate. Basically it's a simple matter of working up a good load. My load is fine for hunting and casual shooting at a bit past 50 yards. My - somewhat limited - experience has been that patched ball is usually the more accurate; but good "bare ball" loads can surprise even prb shooters. I have a target of 10 shots from the 50 yard line. One shot was an unabashed flyer and a second one was out of the group. Considering my eyes and loss of some skill, 8 of those shots went into a group of about 2.75". Though very good, it was a task to seat the prb. In that case I used .606" WW ball; which in my tight bore was a bear to seat. Using soft lead .600" ball and a patch of .012" to .020" the load seats with reasonable pressure and is accurate. But with my bare ball loads I can kill any paper plate at that range.
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Dang you got lucky there, Just think how much time/powder you may have burned getting to similar or worse results! Looks like you found a go to hunting load.
Thanks for sharing nice to see examples of reasonable expectations.
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I shot the above target at F-ship many , many times with my 28ga. best I could do was a 96. I could never shoot that 96 with an original bess, that's some incredible shooting.
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Mike,
Martyn (Pommy B or X-ring services) and I tried out muskets off a rest at 50 yards.
Bad idea! we shot out 13 round group, and did get all shots in 3 1/2" to 4 " but with our at the time 120-odd grains, we got our faces whumped pretty well.
Should have saved it till last , as it put us off our other targets with our sore and lumpy faces!
Next time we'll just try It prone, LOL!
That wee short matchlock shot into about 4 1/2 " both ways at 60 yards the other day, but I Was resting my elbows. Patches were too tight, so after a few bare balls I used a greased wad and it worked. (.60 is a roll-down fit.) and 75 grs of 2F.)
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Martyn (Pommy B or X-ring services) and I tried out muskets off a rest at 50 yards.
Bad idea! we shot out 13 round group, and did get all shots in 3 1/2" to 4 " but with our at the time 120-odd grains, we got our faces whumped pretty well.
Richard. What were you two doing firing a musket from a rest? A gentleman fires standing up.
My 8 gram (124 grains to benighted foreign heathens) load of 1f hurts me not at all when fired as gentlefolk should.
OT. Richard. Did you know that ex President Mugabe of Zimbabwe is actually a Yorkshireman? He cunningly disguised his true name by reversing it from 'e ba gum'... I'll get my coat.
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John,
First things first;
Good to see you here, my dear chap!
"Ex president'?? I live a sheltered life here in the Colonies! Could be right on't name though, Ow'd lad!
What were we doing shooting in an ungentlemanly manner?.........
We were trying the muskets for accuracy, and eliminating as much of the shooter error as poss.
It Was from a standing rest, but the old beasts still bit us a few times. Looked like hamsters afterwards.
My load was 123 grains. (2 throws of a flask)
That's my excuse for conduct beneath that of a gentleman anyway! ;)
The above charge is nae baither off hand... Like they Should be fired.... :)
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Local chap, friend Norm, uses 85gr. 3F in his 20 bore smoothie, a Penn. fowler. It cracks pretty well and Norm
can be hard to beat out to 75 yards, if you are shooting a rifle against him. He rarely misses and as a matter
of fact, I don't think he missed anything yesterday, inside 75 yards.
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Always like to hear of smoothbore accuracy's. Especially when load combinations are included. Would like to know if anyone has ideas of traditional loads? Thanks, Jerry
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Always like to hear of smoothbore accuracy's. Especially when load combinations are included. Would like to know if anyone has ideas of traditional loads? Thanks, Jerry
I've been lead to believe traditional loads weren't patched.
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There were a lot of guys using X- military rifles - after all, those could be bought from forts for as little as $1.00
to $1.50 after they were declared obsolete.
That might have taken some time to acquire, but I doubt anyone went WEST without at least a Musket for protection.
In those, I'd expect the normal load would be a military issue load, also procured at the forts. Those would be single ball,
buck and ball and buckshot. Now, all of those for the .69 Muskets were of 165gr. musket powder, up until about 1820.
After that, the powder was improved and contained 135gr., still meant for prime and charge. The first cap-lock musket was 1842
in the US.
I guess the pilgrims be on their own for swan shot or other sizes, if small shot was even used. In some locals it was - #4 was used
in St. Louis by "Old Tom" with his 12 bore SxS with 48" barrels. Tom was a market hunter and had a contest against a visiting English
Sportsman who had a 26" barreled 14 bore Sxs, which Tom called a "Little Pistol". They used #4's and shot at a target at 75 yards
distance. The person shooting who put the highest # of pellets on the 4" X 7" piece of paper was the winner of the other guy's gun.
The little pistol won, as he used an Ely 1oz. wire basket concentrator designed for killing ducks at 80- 90yards. His little 14 bore put 28 pellets on his 4x7" paper.
Old Tom's gun made 7 hits, iirc. Both guns were non-choked.
As to RB's I assume the non-musket shooting handloader used wads with balls, not patches, same as was carried over into the 20th century, with punkin-ball loads.
In those, grossly undersized round balls were loaded between wads. The ball careened down the bores and shot very randomly.
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Mark just posted these photos on another forum, but said I was free to share them here;
Original flintlock India pattern, shot off-hand at 55 yards. 13 shots, ten best for score.
First picture, Mark's target from the MLAGB Overseas team fundraiser competition,
Score 96, 7 x 10's 2 x 9 1 x 8 (discount 3 x 7's)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FdYkyeb%2Funtitled_M.png&hash=5c37dd52efe9f71f42ea3cb922ec9d1ce2bd26f8) (http://ibb.co/fMmRXw)
Second photo and Mark's personal best;
Shot at the end of season MLAGB OTC comp.
Score 97, 7 x 10's, & 3 x 9's. Discount 1 x 9 & 2 x 8's
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FkhMtCw%2Funtitled_M2.png&hash=10f972135fa6500dca58a3b689041e05cb03141e) (http://ibb.co/htbh5G)
Must say, my cap is off to him!
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Bob, a Swedish airgun company, called "FX" is producing the barrel you describe and getting remarkable accuracy.
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Impressive, to say the least.
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Back in the 80s had a friend Wayne Sandy...Canadian fellow...his accuracy with his smooth bore was remarkable...to amazing...don't ever underestimate their accuracy potential...learned that shooting against him...yep the rifle shooters...picked up on that real well..as in getting our butts beat...
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3" at 50 yards is very good for a smoothbore. We've done this (1 of LB's 20 bores), with 3 different people shooting the gun, in testing, a 6 shot group of 3"- very round- almost perfectly so.
Mine won't do 3" at 50yards or doesn't seem to want to. I suspect I need more practice with it and maybe need to remove the choke, but it shoots shot so well, that isn't going to happen.
My flinter smoothbore will shoot reasonably well out to 28/30 yards, though.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiduECm%2FP3062077.jpg&hash=23f9e6666c737f98fe9c45aac0f823c397f4b404) (http://ibb.co/cMYkJR)
Daryl,
With a little more practice you should be able to hit the bull's eye more frequently :o .............you did it once.
Seriously, that is fine shooting at that distance.
I'd be happy to have all shots on paper.
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Oldtravler61 is right on the money when it comes to some smoothbore shooters being a threat to rifle shooters. Years ago I attended a Rendezvous up in Oregon called Frog Holler. It was a serious primitive event requiring participants to either walk in, or canoe in. The Canadians flocked down from up North to attend, and brought their smoothbores. Many laughed at them, but many, me included, got sent South with our tails between our legs. Those guys could make a smoothbore shoot like a rifle. Many of them carried one granulation of powder, round balls. And some little squares of old wool blanket, with a little bear grease on them to hold the ball in place on top of the powder. I had my first trade gun, and had a suitcase full of wads, cards, patches, and 4F powder. Those guys just laughed at me, and my buddies, and shot us into the dirt.
Hungry Horse
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Oldtravler61 is right on the money when it comes to some smoothbore shooters being a threat to rifle shooters. Years ago I attended a Rendezvous up in Oregon called Frog Holler. It was a serious primitive event requiring participants to either walk in, or canoe in. The Canadians flocked down from up North to attend, and brought their smoothbores. Many laughed at them, but many, me included, got sent South with our tails between our legs. Those guys could make a smoothbore shoot like a rifle. Many of them carried one granulation of powder, round balls. And some little squares of old wool blanket, with a little bear grease on them to hold the ball in place on top of the powder. I had my first trade gun, and had a suitcase full of wads, cards, patches, and 4F powder. Those guys just laughed at me, and my buddies, and shot us into the dirt.
Hungry Horse
Going to try out bare ball load with a wool patch on top to hold everything in place. Having a heck of a time trying to find some 100% wool material at a reasonable price. Most everything out there is a wool blend. Don't want to deposit melted polyester in my barrel.
This stuff sounds usable. 65% new wool and 35% reprocessed wool.
https://www.armysurplusworld.com/used-gi-wool-blanket
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Frank: I'm curious if you could burn a small patch of that wool blend and be able to tell if any poly is in the ashes.
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I think if you burn it the poly leaves a hard residue, almost like plastic.
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I use army surplus blankets, the old green woven ones. The modern grey ones that look like they are felted instead of woven, aren’t 100% wool.
If you think about it, blankets probably got eaten up pretty quickly back in the day due to moths. Making the remnants fair game for gun wadding.
Hungry Horse
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I use army surplus blankets, the old green woven ones. The modern grey ones that look like they are felted instead of woven, aren’t 100% wool.
If you think about it, blankets probably got eaten up pretty quickly back in the day due to moths. Making the remnants fair game for gun wadding.
Hungry Horse
Ok, got my wool blanket. What size wad do you recommend for a 20 gauge? One inch square or a little larger. Thanks
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I cut them square, and big enough to hold the ball in place, without being so big that they come back up with the loading rod. The Canadians I shot against lightly dipped them in hot tallow, and strung them on a piece of light cording. Since it isn’t really a patch, having a small hole in the middle doesn’t matter.
The ball being undersized, and the powder charge being pretty substantial are important. I find that dimpling the balls helps a little as well.
Hungry Horse
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Dimpling. Do they make a bore big enough to use golf balls? :)
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The best dimpler is an old paint shaker, but a sawsall, or a sabersaw, with a bench made fixture to attach it to a paint can. A couple of dozen balls will beat each other up pretty good. You want them to look like a golf ball, which happens faster than you think, so don’t overdo it.
Hungry Horse
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The best dimpler is an old paint shaker, but a sawsall, or a sabersaw, with a bench made fixture to attach it to a paint can. A couple of dozen balls will beat each other up pretty good. You want them to look like a golf ball, which happens faster than you think, so don’t overdo it.
Hungry Horse
Put the cast balls in a paint can, toss them in your truck bed or car trunk and take a drive.
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Just put ten or fifteen in a small soup can an shake them a little. Work's just fine...An those green army blankets work real well...
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Might be something here you can use.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg18099#msg18099
Robby
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This is my Pedersoli Bess accuacy at 50 yards with a .715 Lyman ball wrapped in a thin Walmart brown ticking patch lubed with TOWs Mink oil over 100 grains a Goex 2F powder. This was my first outing and was shot from a makeshift rest. That long flash hole into the barrel was hangfiring terrible which I hope accounts for those two wild shots.
Bob
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfpjmLR%2FBess_accuracy.jpg&hash=c7670efeddda2e9a7b86883207d358ea0b8a565f) (http://ibb.co/dG8D0R)
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Certainly shows promise, Bob.
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I cut them square, and big enough to hold the ball in place, without being so big that they come back up with the loading rod. The Canadians I shot against lightly dipped them in hot tallow, and strung them on a piece of light cording. Since it isn’t really a patch, having a small hole in the middle doesn’t matter.
The ball being undersized, and the powder charge being pretty substantial are important. I find that dimpling the balls helps a little as well.
Hungry Horse
The only tallow that I have found that is readily available is beef tallow. Never used tallow before so not sure if this is ok. Closest thing I have used is Tracks mink oil. Got plenty of Mink oil on hand and will use that if acceptable. Looking for your advice as a starting point instead of wasting time experimenting. Thanks
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You could also use some Tow or shorn Sheep's wool instead of a blanket wad.
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Duro-Felt 100% wool in sheets is what you want. I cut them square w/a rotary cutter & just nip the corners off a touch; goes really fast to make up a ton of them.
http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html
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Black hand's raw wool or tow works just as well, if you are short of blankets.
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(https://image.ibb.co/e3W7LR/EA6_EBBFD_391_E_47_A8_9_CD5_8254_BF677486.png)
Here’s a target shot by Tip Curtis a few years back.
He has it posted in his Tn. shop.
I’m sure he won’t mind me braggin’ on him a little.
Shot at 50 yards off hand.
Good Shootin’ Tip
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(https://image.ibb.co/e3W7LR/EA6_EBBFD_391_E_47_A8_9_CD5_8254_BF677486.png)
Here’s a target shot by Tip Curtis a few years back.
He has it posted in his Tn. shop.
I’m sure he won’t mind me braggin’ on him a little.
Shot at 50 yards off hand.
Good Shootin’ Tip
I'd sure like to know what Tip's load was!!! :'(
Smo, can you find out the details and post them.
It's hard not to suspect the shallow almost invisible rifling techniques sometimes.
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I will see what I can do .
I need to go up to his shop after the first of the year anyway, so it’ll be a couple weeks .
I pretty sure they checked the gun before the shoot, most places do.
I don’t think Tip would have tried any funny business anyway.
After all he’s been shooting muzzleloaders longer than many of us has been alive .
The other signatures on the target are Witness’s to my understanding.
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(https://image.ibb.co/e3W7LR/EA6_EBBFD_391_E_47_A8_9_CD5_8254_BF677486.png)
Here’s a target shot by Tip Curtis a few years back.
He has it posted in his Tn. shop.
I’m sure he won’t mind me braggin’ on him a little.
Shot at 50 yards off hand.
Good Shootin’ Tip
I'd sure like to know what Tip's load was!!! :'(
Smo, can you find out the details and post them.
It's hard not to suspect the shallow almost invisible rifling techniques sometimes.
Wow! That is amazing shooting. Did he have a rear sight on it?
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Remember the more yeah shoot. The better you get. An the more you shoot the same gun the better you get. It also pays to be dead steady when your holding on target.
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Thats some mighty fine shooting SMO...Good luck getting the details...
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(https://image.ibb.co/e3W7LR/EA6_EBBFD_391_E_47_A8_9_CD5_8254_BF677486.png)
Here’s a target shot by Tip Curtis a few years back.
He has it posted in his Tn. shop.
I’m sure he won’t mind me braggin’ on him a little.
Shot at 50 yards off hand.
Good Shootin’ Tip
That is better than amazing - stunning! I have not seen that good an offhand 50yard target since the 70's - with rifles. Wonder if he used a patch?
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Guys,
I will try to go see Tip next week if he's open.
He does sometimes go to Rendezvous at Alafia River in Florida in early January.
Hopefully he will be there. I'll take a list of questions to ask.
As far as I know the target could have been shot in the 70's.
But he told me it was with a smoothy... not a rifle.
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...wonder if it was a flintlock? Host club "Cap and Ballers".
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I thought it was , but I will ask .
The Club appears to still be alive and well .
It’s in Hopkins, Michigan.
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Taylor an Daryl seen a few groups like Tip shot with smoothies. Jack Duprey was one of the shooters an a friend named Dick Gavitt was the other. Those two guy's know how to shoot smooth bores..
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Beyond me. The best I ever got, was 2 1/2" with Taylor's 1728 Bess, some number of years ago, then 3" with LB's 20 bore.
With my own gun, I am horrid. Whether it's due to the choke or whatever it is, I am not a good shot with a smoothbore,
but Taylor and a few of the guys at Rendezvous BC sure shoot them well. More practice with it, certainly would not hurt. :D
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Daryls, with some practice, you'll be shooting groups like this....from the hip!
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& blind drunk, er, I mean, blind folded.
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(https://s20.postimg.org/i3tv3yud9/IMG_20180102_172856664.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yrld6gp4p/)
Conditions were poor for good pictures...but there's my first deer with a smooth bore.
25yd shot. Hit exactly where I was intending to. Took the top of the heart off.
Shooting cute little groups is great. Putting meat in the freezer is what matters to me though...and it did the trick.
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Congrats
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Nice shooting, Mauser...congratulations. That's what it's all about for me, too. I'll be out in the cold on Saturday hoping for a 25 yard shot as well.
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(https://s20.postimg.org/wjqxub5tp/IMG_20180103_171023999.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4we8g7kmx/)
#2 today!
I've wanted to track a deer in the snow and kill it with a flintlock forever. Many years we don't have the snow. I set out today and accomplished my goal.
I was disappointed to see it was a button buck. I looked it over and felt confident it was an adult doe. I personally try my best to only take adult doe.
Now to fill the buck tag. Probably done with the smooth bore for the year though. No particular reason. Just wanna carry the rifle I built a while.
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Congrats again
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I will see what I can do .
I need to go up to his shop after the first of the year anyway, so it’ll be a couple weeks .
I pretty sure they checked the gun before the shoot, most places do.
I don’t think Tip would have tried any funny business anyway.
After all he’s been shooting muzzleloaders longer than many of us has been alive .
The other signatures on the target are Witness’s to my understanding.
Update:
Guys , I've come down with a terrible cold from the frigid weather, So I'm postponing my trip to Tips place until I recover.
I'm sure Tip would appreciate me not bringing him the bug...
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So how many of you 3 inch group guys ......doing that without a rear sight on your Smoothbore Flintah ?
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I don’t think Tip had a rear sight .
Another question I will ask.
Hopefully next week I will be able to get some info.
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My Pennsylvania fowler (Chambers) has a tapered octagon to round barrel. At the wedding band, I pull the front silver sight down until I can just see the tip of it on the wedding band, place the front sight on the centre of the target and let 'er rip. Works for me. For distances further than 50, I see more sight above the barrel, and for 100 yards, for example, I see as much barrel as front sight above the barrel, still holding the front sight in the centre of the target. That's with 86 gr. FFg GOEX .020" patch and .600 ball.
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So how many of you 3 inch group guys ......doing that without a rear sight on your Smoothbore Flintah ?
No rear sights allowed in the smoothbore events, at our club or at Hefley Creek.(Rendezvous B.C.)
I have thought I might put one on my 20 bore, just to see if I could get a group with it at 50 yards or more -
will likely will do that using crazy glue. Bit of heat and off it'll come.
I just mounted rear sights on mine and Len's 20 bores. Once the wind dies down a bit, we'll get out and shoot some paper with them.
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I live in michigan and shoot at Grand Valley Cap and Ballers often. I dont know Tip Curtis but they have some very good members their.
The Best off hand shooters in the country right Now, are the "Marsh's" Harry and Tim. Father and son.
They shoot groups offhand that most cant shoot of a Bench.
Harry been shooting smooth bore competition lately with real high scores.
His son Tim has some sort of "Gift" he has broken so many records the last few Years. and some are long standing records!
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Guys I finally made it to Tip's place today.
After picking up a few small items I had a talk with him about this target.
He said it was shot years ago at the Grand Valley Cap and Ball Range.
The first thing Tip said is... "You want to see the gun".
To be honest with y'all when he handed me the gun , I think I kinda' went brain dead.
Tip said "Cock It"....... I'm telling you Guys it felt like it just rolled back with hardly any effort.
Tip was watching me when I cocked it and he had a big smile on his face as I commented on the smoothness of the lock.
The smoothbore did not have a rear sight mounted on it.
He used 80 grns of ffg powder and a dry patch.
The gun has a .58 cal Colerain barrel on it , again brain dead didn't ask the length,
But I'm guessing 44" to 46".
Still in shock , I forgot to ask about the lock as well...
Tip told me the gun was 55 years old.
Man was it sweet and well balanced .
The gun was unusually heavy for a smoothbore.
Nope, I didn't ask...
Didn't even think to take a photo of the gun... What a Dummy I am.
Tip was busy getting a 20 gauge smoothbore ready to ship to Oregon, so I didn't want to keep him from getting someones gun shipped.
He has still got a show room full of eye candy and first place ribbons and awards.
And He is a Wealth of Knowledge...wish I lived closer.
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I appreciate it! Thank you! ;D How did it look? I just ordered a fusil de chasse from Tip and sent him my money the other day. I live in Oregon so more than likely it is mine. First flintlock and smoothbore so I am excited. I will post pics of it when I get it.
Brandon
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I don’t think Tip had a rear sight. Another question I will ask.
FWIW when I visited w/ Tip, I recall it being a well/developed patched roundball load, but he looked me in the eye and said “ ... but there was more work done on the shooter”.
Which I took as meaning that he practiced and really, really WORKED at it! I would surmise that he shot nothing else that year but shoot that one firelock!
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I’m sure he ran a ton of round ball’s down the tube.
You don’t get targets like that one by just being lucky. LOL
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I appreciate it! Thank you! ;D How did it look? I just ordered a fusil de chasse from Tip and sent him my money the other day. I live in Oregon so more than likely it is mine. First flintlock and smoothbore so I am excited. I will post pics of it when I get it.
Brandon
Sorry BB I was busy looking at other things and didn’t really pay that much attention to your gun.
I’m sure you will be pleased with it .
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I KNOW this is bringing this one back from the dead but one time visiting with Tip he told me that when he shot that target he was burning through 6 cases of bp a year. That is a lot of smoke! Greg
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I have a question, do the best shooters have any choke? Or taper, or step in the bore, or are they just straight?
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Bsharp - I would say no choke, or jug choke would be best. My 20 bore has a standard choke and
does not shoot round balls very well past very close range 25 to 30yards. I seem to get more "fliers"
than the guys without choked bls.
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I have a question, do the best shooters have any choke? Or taper, or step in the bore, or are they just straight?
Proof positive that practice makes perfect, I'd say.
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I have a question, do the best shooters have any choke? Or taper, or step in the bore, or are they just straight?
Proof positive that practice makes perfect, I'd say.
Sorry for not making it clear, I was referring to the guns, not the people.
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My own personal observations, Bsharp, would indicate no choke works best for round ball accuracy.
As well, I had a 'slight' jug choked small bore smoothbore, that shot round balls very accurately as well.
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I just remember 30 years ago it was a big secret to what shot better than most. Guess it still is!
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I shot this today. Just guessed at the load. 80gr. 3f, .595s and a couple of .600s with a snug patch and a dry patch under it because I forgot the 20ga. wads. There are some flyers, but the heat and mirage plus me trying to shoot higher caused most of them. Not being a real smoothbore shooter, I was surprised when I saw the group form. 50yds. offhand. The blue tape and magic marker is me recycling a target. The gun is my James Klein LH fowler.
(https://i.ibb.co/KyD1GkW/P-20200616-161022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pXQmP8d)
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5 shots, 28 yards with a standard choked barrel.
ball specs & load on the target
(https://i.ibb.co/h2LSb2K/P3062077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tYQ9gYb)
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Sights or no sights not only depends on where/if one shoots matches but also the shooter's proclivities. Sights on smoothbores are H/C but many prefer a slick-top barrel. Ol' Loudmouf is a 20ga and I specified a rear sight. I don't shoot smoothbore matches but I do hunt with that gun and use patched ball. It's great, IMHO, to be able to shoot a smoothbore as if it were a rifle. I did put an extra wide notch in the rear. It shoots shot to virtually the same POI as ball; just maybe 2" lower and that's not an issue. Accuracy at 50 yards (my sort of "limit") is superb with 3-shot groups (ave 3"). It enabled me to make a nice running shot on a deer a few years ago.
I can still shoot well; it's just that I can't see what I'm shooting at. :o
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A choked smoothbore with a traditional choke will shoot pretty accurately out to about fifty yards or so if you don’t patch the ball, and make sure the ball is about 20 thousandths under the diameter of the choked section of the barrel.the problem is that they plug up faster than a cylinder bored gun. I have seen jug choked smoothbores shoot a patched ball pretty well a time or two, but have not seen one shoot a bare ball all that well.
Hungry Horse
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My own personal observations, Bsharp, would indicate no choke works best for round ball accuracy.
As well, I had a 'slight' jug choked small bore smoothbore, that shot round balls very accurately as well.
What about a tapered bore?
And hardness of lead, is a bit harder than soft better?
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Test it and tell us how it did with all load parameters.
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After I get the 7 ga. Jug choked, I may try some scrap lead bare balls.
But first I have to come up with some type of "flight stopper" wads. Some heavy card stock with a base and wings that open, letting the shot separate from the wad.
I only want to kill one turkey, not the whole flock!
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BSharp: something that'll tighten up your shot cloud is this...take some post'it notes, make cylinders that just fit your bore, close in the bottom by folding and gluing over a stick, and pour the shot into them. The cylinder of paper seems to keep the shot together a little further out.
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BSharp: something that'll tighten up your shot cloud is this...take some post'it notes, make cylinders that just fit your bore, close in the bottom by folding and gluing over a stick, and pour the shot into them. The cylinder of paper seems to keep the shot together a little further out.
I have had some of them turn into near slugs!
I bet with the jug choke, they will open nicely!
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Years ago you could purchase shot+wad assembled"ctgs" for loading in cylinder bore guns. They had paper wrapping of different coloured wrapping
designating different ranges of use. These ctg.s were just the base wad and shot & were loaded on top of your powder charge.
The green one was designated for deer or wolves to 50 yards, or for ducks at 90 yards or more. It took that long for the shot charge to spread.
The lighter colours were for closer range shooting at birds. Thus it can be seen, that 'changes' can be made to the post-it note ctgs. or bank-coin
wrappers that some guys use. Slits as with modern plastic shot-cups, even to using plastic shot cups to increase pattern density - BUT- a card wad
barrier must be lowed first over the powder charge to prevent the powder flame from melting the plastic and coating the bore -
go ahead and ask me how I know this! IT happens- BUT the plastic wad can improve cylinder bore shot charge patterns. Steel-shot plastic cups are
even better as they are stiffer - just be sure to load a 1/8" or 1/4" tight fitting card wad on the powder.
It usually takes a bit more powder to get the shot cup to open well - oh goodie - more experimentation to do!
You have to try it in your gun before you will know how it works - in your gun.