AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: D. Taylor Sapergia on May 06, 2009, 01:08:33 AM
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I have photographs of a number of Lehigh rifles form makers such as John Rupp and Jacob Kuntz. Many of the other rifles I photographed that had no names associated with them, are certainly represented by these two makers. So, when I present a rifle without attribution, the geonealogy will still be evident.
[imgt]https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2208.jpg[/img]
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2211.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2212.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2215.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2216.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2219.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2220.jpg)
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batch two...the first pic deplaces the deleted one in the first posting.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2208.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2224.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2225.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2227.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2229.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2233.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2238.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2240.jpg)
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Now we're getting to the Kuntz rifles I love so much.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2252.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2253.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2254.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2255.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2256.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2257.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2258.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2259.jpg)
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2260.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2261.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2262.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2263.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2264.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2265.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2266.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2268.jpg)
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...more later.
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Great photos, thanks for posting those. The Lehigh guns are my favorite too. Sorry, Don G. I can't help it.
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Wow! Thanks for the eye candy. I love Lehighs and can't see or study enough of them. Thanks again.
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Love the two piece rear sight with the brass base. I feel a side project in the making. Thanks for sharing Taylor.
DMR
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D,Taylor
Hey this is great, thanks for posting these. We never get enough of details that we never see in the books. I know I have got to find the person that has the pics of the piece that is in the Metro Art museum in NYC. I may just have to build me one of these babies.
Now I find it interesting in the shot of the patch box lid open that the hinge is not the tab folded and riveted/soldered down type. They look like they just bent it around forming the tube.
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Taylor....great pictures, of both the Lehigh and the Bonewitz. These close-up pictures are showing a lot of detail that few
of us ever really see when we look at an original, speaking for myself here. We usually get carried away with the overall gun that we don't really see all the little details. In view of the fact that we have been discussing the "new era" of gun
building versus these old masters, these pictures really point out a lot of the differences. As you can see, the engraving
and carving is not up to what is being done today, it also points out the fact that your engraving doesn't have to be all
that great to compare to an original. I'm not really sure they should be compared, the emphasis to build, and the conditions under which we work is so much different. Sure is nice to study these old ones, nice stuff, hain't........Don
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Here's some more - all of a J. Kuntz I think.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2274.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2275.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2276.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2277.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2280.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2282.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2283.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2284.jpg)
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2297.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2288.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2289.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2290.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2291.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2292.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2293.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2294.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2295.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2296.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2297.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2298.jpg)
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Taylor, On the last batch of photo's, fourth one down, is a rear sight. Is that a leaf for adjusting elevation? I'm not sure what I'm seeing, is there also a separate wedge for binding the sight in tight, or some mechanism for adjusting windage, I think I can see a witness mark. Thank you, these are really great!!
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Thanks again, WOW!
Tim C.
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Taylor....beautiful gun, seems like they were made just for collectors or museums, don't know how you could shoot that
thing....it would be like trying to aim down a broom stick. I just did some work on a modern copy of a lehigh, you could
not aim it..period. If you got your head low enough to aim it, the buttplate would hit you on your cheek bone. This was
a gun made by a "famous" gun builder. Thank goodness Allen Martin builds a Lehigh that fits you, even my first rifle which was a Lehigh, fits me...I shot it a lot. I glad I got that Lehigh stuff out of my system early so I don't have to fiddle
with them any more. I guess you realize that I don't care for them, pretty to look at, but not the greatest thing to shoot.
But, once again, Taylor's photo work is outstanding and would be a great help to anyone who has the nerve to want to
build one. Eric, you're weird.....get back to your bag making, and see me before you order any more guns............Don
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One more thing on that Kuntz rifle......how do you think Dixon's would score that lock placement?..............Don
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Thank you Taylor!!
Now the question.
Was that rear sight adjustable for elevation???
Dan
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Those are really some really beautiful rifles.
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Thanks Taylor,
You have done us a real service because rarely do we see photos of guns taken by someone who knows exactly the shaping and design details of which we would be most interested.
dave
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Great pictures Taylor!
Thanks for posting these and the Bonewitz, as they are a pleasure to look at.
Since the owner has given permission for posting here, hopefully they will be copied to the Library for future enjoyment.
John
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I often wondered if those Lehighs were designed for a short fat faced thick necked deutcha boy cause I know they seldom (or never) fit a tall skinny long necked whatever guy!! Well if you use no more than 25 gr and don't mind a 'bump' in the cheek on ignition I guess they would work. This goes against the grain of some folks that say if they are built right they are just fine. ;D
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Most glorious thanks! Lehigh guns are VERY poorly illustrated...if they're illustrated at all. >:(
I have never gotten to see a Lehigh gun of "classic" form before. I have seen several Kutztown/eastern Berks guns, and I almost bought a late Moll gun (not the same). I have also gotten to see a gun of the late Rupp variety (like the Kuntz shown). Otherwise that's it...which makes it real difficult when you're trying to build one!!!
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I appreciate everyone indicating their gratitude. You are all most welcome. If you intend to build a Lehigh, there are a lot of details in these pictures that will start you down the right path. One of the most profound idiosyncracies regarding Lehigh rifles that amazed me, was their delicacy. They are fine and bird-like. The butt plates on some of them are less than four inches heel to toe. The barrels have only a gentle swamp, are very heavy for their calibre, and stock design. Many have from 1/8" - 3/16" of wood along the barrel channels, well below the centre line, and virtually flat from the roll to the ramrod groove.
That sight is cool. It has an insert set into the vertical part - Kuntz was pretty handy with saw and file. It is either an adjustable insert, or a replacement for an unsuccessful notch. There is nothing on the back side of the rear sight to lock it after adjustment, though. And it sits flush with the top, suggesting to me that it is a masterful and tedious repair. But it sure could be either, or whatever the owner wanted.
When I was examining this collection, I naturally shouldered all the pieces with shooting in mind. I did not shoulder a single rifle that I feel would have been awkward or uncomfortable to shoot. I have only built two Lehigh rifles, and I made sure that the drop at the comb especially, and at the heel, were adequate. Consequently, both rifles are easy and comfortable to shoot. Add to that that the bigger of the two bores was .45 calibre. If you mounted a .60 cal light octagon to round, as with one of those famous Herman Rupp runs, then you may have a bruiser.
One more observation...not all Lehigh rifles have an open ended nose piece. I have provided examples of both open and closed here.
I have some more pics to present, so I'd best get at it.
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Regarding lock placement Don...The example I've show is typical. The clock is right up at the top of the side flat. Perhaps the vent is bored downhill to intersect the bore...I did not stick a wire into the vents to check that out, but it makes sense. Placing the lock there permits a stock that is as slender vertically as possible.
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These are some more pictures of two Jacob Kuntz pieces. Check out the thickness of the forend wood in the first picture.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2301.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2302.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2303.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2304.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2305.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2306.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2307.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2311.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2312.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2313.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2314.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2315.jpg)
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Thanks. I have seen several Berks county guns, which definitely have "thick" fore ends (with a very full, round shape), and wondered if Lehigh fore ends should be similarly thick.
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2316.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2317.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2318.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2319.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2320.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2322.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2323.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2324.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2325.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2326.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2327.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2329.jpg)
In this last picture, we have a plain Kuntz rifle with a gorgeous patch box, and an open ended nose piece. I suspect that the rim fire cartridge case is a later addition.
Regarding the Bonewitz rifle, and these Lehigh guns too, I believe the finish is original, but the owners over the years have applied waxes to preserve them. Kuntz rifles and pistols have a glossy varnish/violin finish, and a definite red hue.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2330.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2331.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2332.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2333.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Lehigh/DSCN2334.jpg)
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I think my brain is on overload! This is great stuff, thanks again Taylor!
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The rifle ID'ed as made by Bonawitz looks more like the work of his apprentice, Andrew Fichthorn rather than the former. The carving is closer in execution and style to Fichthorn than to that of Johannes. Does it have the intaglio rampant lion mark at the left side barrel flat near the breech?
Absence of that does not mean that it wasn't made by him, (my Bonawitz doesn't have it), but the ornamentation needs to fit the Bonawitz template, (mine does). This one does not seem to. Fichthorn often used an AF mark with other elements stamped on the breech flat.
Refer to the KRA compilation of Selected Articles from the KRA Bulletin (Volume 1-30); pages 293-299 for Fichthorn and pages 243-245 for Bonawitz, written by Henry Bishop.
These are really beautiful rifles and the owner has fine taste. He knows what he is looking for. Thank you for showing them around and to echo earlier sentiments, it would be nice it they could be placed in the ALR Museum, where they would make a grand addtion.
Dick
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That sight is cool. It has an insert set into the vertical part - Kuntz was pretty handy with saw and file. It is either an adjustable insert, or a replacement for an unsuccessful notch. There is nothing on the back side of the rear sight to lock it after adjustment, though. And it sits flush with the top, suggesting to me that it is a masterful and tedious repair.
I suppose it is possible it is a repair, but wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier just to make a new sight? And if you were going to repair it, wouldn't you just file out a rectangular recess and solder it in? It really looks like it was intended to be adjustable to me.
Dale H
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Great pictures by a gun builder for gun builders. It doesn't get any better than this other than handling the real thing. Thanks again. I'm inspired to start another one.
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Exellent. That's the idea. And a lot of the mystique is in the end just mechanics and geometry.
Dale, I concur with you. Kuntz made some very fancy adjustable sights. I replicated a folding leaf sight for my own Kuntz rifle.
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Dale -
Would you consider the gun for exhibit in the library? I may be reached at <nordata@earthlink.net> if you're so inclined, or if you need help.
B.
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I cant thank you enough for posting these! Ive seen some of them before I think but I do not have good pictures!
Thanks again!
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Taylor....the photography on these guns is just spectacular. Can you imagine the sales you might generate if this type
of thing was done with all of the guns shown in both volumes of RCA, and it was available on a CD. It would be a very
time consuming endeavor.....just dreaming..........Don
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to preface, i have very little experience with examining period firearms, certainly not enough to even be able to tell with any sort of accuracy what county they were made in let alone by which maker, the most guns i have looked at either in books or in person have been Continental guns, that being said, these guns are very striking, but one thing that really jumped out at me was the basket weave checkering, i just seemed to really fit the gun, i guess its kind of a weird thing to pop out at you on such beautiful guns, but i dont recall ever seeing that on a muzzleloader before. thank you for the pictures im sure i will be back again to look some more
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Taylor, I have been into this thread for the last day and a half studying all of the fine details that I have never seen before! A kid in a candy store :D. There has been no time to read anything else, but that's quite OK with me. You sir have made my month!! Thanks a million........Joel
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is there a small notch on that rear sight?if so one could insert a knife tip pop it up and insert a different piece 50yds/100yds /150yds ?
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Taylor,
As another one that likes the Lehigh, thanks. The detail of your photos makes me want to keep going back to them for review. I am sure they will be a Forum favorite. I hope to use them for a personal build one day. It would be great to have some measurements to go along with it. Has the rifle been documented in any reference that would have the information? Thanks again.
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There are at least four - more than likely five, rifles in that thread. The first was a John Rupp, and then three different Kuntz rifles. I took all those pictures and as many again in a couple of hours one morning in July '07. Toward the end of the session, Cody, Brian and I agreed that measurements would be useful, so I'll post some pictures of a rifle with a tape measure close by so that proportions, if not measurements can be better understood. I will likely not get to that until Saturday...so stand by, please.
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Exellent. That's the idea. And a lot of the mystique is in the end just mechanics and geometry.
Dale, I concur with you. Kuntz made some very fancy adjustable sights. I replicated a folding leaf sight for my own Kuntz rifle.
Wow, What a great series of photos. Thanks for sharing.
Would it be possible to post a photo of that adjustable sight? Never seen a fancy adjustable sight on a longrifle.
Thanks,
J.D.
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That is the only image of that sight that I took. If you were to replicate it, I think it's construction would become obvious.
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That is the only image of that sight that I took. If you were to replicate it, I think it's construction would become obvious.
Thanks Taylor, but that isn't what I meant. I should have chosen my words more carefully.
Is it possible to get a photo of the fancy folding sight that you replicated for one of your rifles?
Thanks,
J.D.
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Absolutely...I'll post it under Gunbuilding with a new thread.
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Been out of Internet range for a few days. Taylor, thanks for all the great pics. Personally, I love the engraving details.
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Any chance of getting the photos on this thread recovered? Thanks!!
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Any chance of getting the photos on this thread recovered? Thanks!!
I attempted but it looks like the images are in a defunct photo bucket account.
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Thanks for trying Rich.
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PhotoBucket is kaput.