AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on December 06, 2017, 07:13:43 PM
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I’ve been working on a fowling piece patterned after Fainot’s work. Several here helped me figure out construction details of his side-opening, surround patchboxes. It’s a complicated thing. The hinge is a separate piece with leaves that are riveted to the surround and the lid.
(https://preview.ibb.co/j8i7fG/3_C0600_DF_71_F2_40_BC_83_FF_A8_EE1_AB628_E0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mZKPSw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hsqL0G/9_DA723_AB_DE98_412_C_B135_A012770_BE8_E5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8Cpub)
(https://preview.ibb.co/erfynw/6751883_A_7529_4_E5_D_A239_9_A700_F0_CD062.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFjPSw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jc0W7w/C9_E10117_531_F_4511_80_DE_8_C4_B514_D486_A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hSZr7w)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iCPAZb/EE710_A1_E_CFD9_4041_934_F_10_FAC735_D5_A7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gHfjub)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ngRqZb/BE71_E5_D3_DE78_4_DC1_B292_AAAF7_D7_CF92_B.png) (https://ibb.co/i5Otnw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j11qZb/F35_CB8_B3_F746_46_BE_A408_94_AAC13_D714_F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYgqZb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i2geSw/5742_A8_A4_975_B_4_CDE_8360_75_C4333_D02_AA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gEeAZb)
Next challenge is to figure out the catch and spring. Last night I went to my ML club’s weekly “build, BS, and bourbon at Browner’s” and Bob himself noted a tiny detail I had missed.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kvqW7w/5_C968_DEF_00_EC_45_B4_8_A1_A_8_D85512_B395_A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cSKf0G)
Look very closely and in the area of the screw, rivet head, and buttplate, there is a sliver of silver along the edge between buttplate and surround. This led us to think this is where a spring for the lid catch is anchored.
It’s been a fun bit of detective work to try to figure out Fainot’s box construction techniques which seem unique to him, at least among Lancaster builders.
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Golly, sure looks like a lot of work! ;)
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It is, Mike. This should be a $500 patchbox. I notice you mostly stay away from complicated brass boxes in your builds.
I’m going to make a couple more while I still remember how.
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I agree with Mike, it's a lot of work. But the payoff is having a unique patchbox. I'm interested to see the release and the finished product.
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Rich, Looking good!! Is there a picture of the mechanism in RCA ? I feel sure that I have seen that , somewhere before . I could be wrong though?? Nate
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Nate, we’re blessed to have a fabulous example here in our library and it as the patchbox open!
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15403.0
Here’s s nocevone sold a few years ago: https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2364-important-early-relief-carved-gun-attributed-to-george-frederick-fainot-49786/
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The release latch looks like it's in the centre along the top edge of the lid. So, what is the button in the top rear corner all about? Quite an interesting project, Rich.
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there are two more either side of the hinge side screw whatever they are for
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Taylor, I suppose it’s fair to share images from the library.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gqrPSw/C442_F93_A_EFD1_49_B6_8_AD2_0_E172_F888053.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hNSynw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FibLJnw%2F06_A43_BC0_C7_D2_4_E84_9_C71_C87_D9_A383_B2_D.jpg&hash=07f8cd8672c385a597ac00ebcdb146b05b3f29fa) (https://ibb.co/kJNW7w)
temporary image upload (https://imgbb.com/)
See the little brass knobs in 2 places. There are 2 of them in the surround next to the hinge and 1 there at the upper left right next to where we noted the little sliver of steel. We concluded all the little brass nubs are rivet heads. Beside the hinge they anchor the lid opener spring to the surround. In the upper corner the lone rivet locks the catch spring to the surround.
Now I have to guess the form of the catch spring now I know where it is anchored.
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Rich impressive work...it's challenges like this that make this SO..rewarding...well done...
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Rich impressive work...it's challenges like this that make this SO..rewarding...well done...
It’s been a fun project. I really like Fainot’s funky patch boxes. I plan 2 more Fainot builds. Next will be a rifle then another fowler. I want to get his style down and apply what I’ve learned more efficiently.
Then I will be ready for a change!
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Ah yes, obvious once someone else has done the study. Nice work. I'm looking forward to seeing your guns in progress Rich.
Taylor
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Rich, I applaud your go at a cool old piece !! One of the real treats of this site is the diverse range of work that members do / have done. I just really love to see people do the "different" pieces , many of which are more interesting , in their own way than some of the more well known "classics" . Making the odd ones teaches me twice as much , as I tend to focus more intently , on every possible little detail , more than the ones I`m used to doing . Keep us posted Rich !! Nate
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Nate, all I can figure is Fainot got a bargain on a keg of rivets because just about everything is riveted to everything else in this patchbox. Last night I cut the patchbox cavity and today installed the opener spring which is riveted to the surround.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk4w1ub%2F9165_FCA7_D521_45_E2_899_A_F5_E6_BCEBC18_A.jpg&hash=a840aec3560e54ff262a24a35245ab39aa9c90e5) (http://ibb.co/cafSZb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfFMC0G%2F7_ABBA8_C7_C5_CD_432_C_B0_EE_8_E0161_CDE49_A.jpg&hash=b6650ce627ae8534c5194b31de7a1323e829e1c0) (http://ibb.co/gXWqnw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fc6KbSw%2F6_DE7_BC28_430_C_4_FE2_ADD1_394307_EE8_A24.jpg&hash=b4c82c7bacda5d39be82b4e668801ba8df89d463) (http://ibb.co/ciAi7w)
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Great job Rich, I see you have your own labor of love 😁 that patch box is quite the undertaking on its own.
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Great work on the box, Rich! I hope you post some progress pics of that gun along the way, I look forward to seeing more of it!
Curtis
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Re-did the opener spring and installed the latch spring and latch. Just some small tweaks left. Lots of lesson learned! Fainot made these boxes as self-contained units, all springs, catches, latches, hinge riveted to the surround. Pretty complicated but he stuck with this design. Hopefully the next one will be easier to make. Next Fainot will be a rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fh7GNuw%2FE46_EE461_CB17_4816_AD9_D_5_C557_FAF53_F8.jpg&hash=cf533fa59f2457f0cbca04447b91f485e291e992) (http://ibb.co/caUxSG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FczFt1b%2FB34_B1171_B35_E_44_CE_8612_3_A137_B6_ADDAF.jpg&hash=25d9ae91cb3c4dea03612faefc6e454eea9a905c) (http://ibb.co/n9pxSG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkdVRMb%2FF4_AC6986_4101_4_A20_BCE4_B9379_E4_A1_BAA.jpg&hash=1bd77cabaff5b3ae7393a43a0455a4c4a780da44) (http://ibb.co/b1XvEw)
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fcqz6nG%2FIMG_1514.jpg&hash=5bbc3a06e5091640bec8904a8121923ddde5e1a6) (http://ibb.co/h6Magb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fm8AqEw%2FIMG_1516.jpg&hash=3c7da17947e3441b09c39bb3c3a172d5b5b829ca) (http://ibb.co/nQKT1b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FetXbnG%2FIMG_1515.jpg&hash=82a0c220ac5f218e9f6ee6dbe4cb6fd1ef27aa66) (http://ibb.co/jY2y1b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkMBuPw%2FIMG_1517.jpg&hash=1668cee5cc4b3529b2fa362a05cf2c5ab86c19b4) (http://ibb.co/gr7CBb)
Some detail photos of the Fainot rifle box...looks like you got it!
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Thanks! That’s the earliest known Fainot with a patchbox. That hinge is a little different from later ones. It has one “knuckle”. This is a great rifle and my next project.
Other Fainot boxes ( I think the top 2 are quite a bit later):
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fb8eOjw%2F388_A6_AA3_5_FA5_437_B_BC51_C7_AFE1_D7_E4_BA.jpg&hash=d5a0e8e759b2b0d93289a737c19beeb769e6a9f0) (http://ibb.co/gP1scG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfXK0Wb%2F71_CFE409_3209_47_E0_BE0_D_330_BDAD6_FD6_A.jpg&hash=213d338d9043be48e496665fbb9f883347d8e0dd) (http://ibb.co/cgq7Bb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fm5tijw%2F3_EE92_E15_FBAD_47_BB_AD71_860116_D58_AEC.jpg&hash=ceab9827f6f4af8df97a83601eb316ebf7c7f85a) (http://ibb.co/bvKdHG)
imageupload (http://imgbb.com/)
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Rich,
Yes, this is quite a nice rifle and early...If you wish, I'd be happy to provide any details of the Fainot rifle that may assist you with your next project.
Bruce
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Rich - you really went to town with that patchbox! Nicely done, as is the fowler it goes on. I remember handling the gun the evening you were passing it around. It handles well and points well and is surprisingly light. I hope you post pictures of it when you are done.
dave
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Rich - you really went to town with that patchbox! Nicely done, as is the fowler it goes on. I remember handling the gun the evening you were passing it around. It handles well and points well and is surprisingly light. I hope you post pictures of it when you are done.
dave
Yes, I'd like to see it as well. You fellows have certainly been making some interesting guns lately....
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Great post Rich, riveting!! Very nicely done!!!
Robby
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This has been a most exciting, as well as educational thread!
Rich, your hard work and skill would make Fainot stand proud! I look forward to seeing your future progress on this fine build!
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Hi Rich,
Happy New Year and wonderful thread. That is a complicated patchbox for sure but you are doing a great job reproducing the details. What a great series of guns you have planned!
dave
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My compliments to you, Rich for pulling this off.
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Rich, as usual, you've done a great job on this on this excellent piece. Thanks for taking us alone. Happy New Year everyone.
Bob
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Great job Rich. As I understand it, the lid is separate from the surround. Which step came first? Patch box cavity, lid and hinge assembly or surround? I have a side opening patch box of Dickert style and need to know the correct steps to installation. I am not sure whether to install the surround first and then the lid and hinge or vice versa. It looks like a very difficult box to install correctly and you did a beautiful job.
Do you have pictures of the installation steps that you can post?
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Are you asking about inletting steps? I think I covered construction steps.
Inletting a complete assembly is tough. I inletted the surround and lid as one. Hardest part is conforming 1/16” thick brass to the stock. I confess filling and re- drilling screw holes because as I inletted it, it spread out some. My rule is to make it very slightly more curved than the stock and it will spread out a tiny bit during inletting. If your inlet area is flat ignore that. Mine required a lot of “curve” adjustment particularly up in the head where it’s getting into the wrist.
So here was my procedure:
Drill screw holes in surround.
Lay on stock and drill hole into the stock for top screw and 2 side screws. Blacken the hinge. Screw the patchbox down. Tap it all around.
Scribe in outline and remove box and inlet hinge and all around the edge.
Remove some background.
Blacken, screw down, tappity tap, inlet edges more, remove more background.
Repeat and realize the box is spreading and screw holes are getting a bad angle.
Fill and re-drill screw holes. Drill remaining holes down at the base.
Outline and chisel the patchbox cavity.
Install catch spring and inlet that.
I left the surround long at the rear than trimmed it after inletting was done.
Install catch on lid and opener spring.
Adjust catch and release till it works.
Start filing everything to smooth contour then polish to 320.
Next I will make a bondo covered jig for engraving the box.
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I applaud you for trying something quite different....and succeeding! Nice workmanship!
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Thanks for the detailed steps. That is exactly what I was asking about. Your description will be very helpful. Well done.
In looking at the pictures again, I see that the hinge is attached to the bottom of the surround and now I understand how the box, lid and hinge are inletted as an assembly. The Dickert hinge I have is two separate parts and they are designed to be installed separately. There is a hinge and lid assembly and a surround assembly. The hinge and lid assembly is designed to so that the hinge is installed in the patch box cavity against a sidewall. Stated another way, the hinge is 90 degrees perpendicular to the lid when lid is closed and screwed to the side of the cavity. I am told by the maker of the hinge to install the surround first then the lid and hinge. But with that approach I see a big challenge in trying to screw the lid in the correct precise place due to having to install the screws in a confined space and at right angles. Seems to me I would have to bend a screwdriver to 90 degrees in order to drive the screws in. At this point I have soldered the lid and hinge to the surround and intend to install as one unit, That hinge in the cavity is perplexing.
Nice job on your effort.
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Gumbo, this sounds like the side-opening, daisy-headed box. If the hinge is separate my approach would be to cut the cavity and install the hinge and lid, then inlet the surround. Treat it like a simple side opening box at first. Those screws holding the hinge in are under very low stress as the stress is at 90 degrees to the screw.
When I last did a side-opening Bucks County box, I burned in the hinge screw pilot holes using a bent rod filed to diameter and heated red hot. Practice on a scrap piece of maple and expect any housemates to ask if you’ve set the house on fire (again).
Then I used a right angle screwdriver to seat the screws. They are hard to find but dome-head screws are a nice touch here. No countersink. But round-headed, countersink style screw heads are fine.
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Back at it, prepping for my next Fainot build which will be based on the rifle that is here in our excellent library. That rifle has the earliest design Fainot box seen yet. The hinge is separate from the lid and is riveted to it like all Fainot boxes but the hinge has one long knuckle and when we look inside we see the hinge pin is exposed, not completely encased by knuckles.
(https://image.ibb.co/m2kCJb/523096_C7_A593_447_D_9_BCE_7592686_BCF5_D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mebKyb)
(https://image.ibb.co/c8Vq4G/BC7_EF47_F_5140_4_A6_F_B69_F_7_F02_E544_A4_FC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j5Aq4G)
Ok so today we are just making that long rolled knuckle. There are as many hinge making techniques as there are builders I guess. I make 2 right angle bends forming a U shape, with the distance between bends hopefully the circumference of the hinge pin.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fS3JPG/4_F7247_D8_AC6_A_457_E_B150_11916163_B4_E4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i1NZyb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n4fbBw/7_ADA15_A5_17_D6_4_AAC_B178_30895_D1_F3557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/men1db)
I use a wide masonry chisel that I have ground to a rounded edge to start the bend or trough for the hinge pin. Works great. Then cinch it up with the vise and then beat on it until it all lays flat.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kLHHJb/231703_A4_5_A33_4_E37_B013_FC64389_E9_DE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6eWdb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ew2jyb/1196521_F_FCAD_41_CE_863_E_98_AA2_F9_B4662.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h1Drdb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eHwNjG/E5950_B98_CD19_4847_99_B4_A1_C2_E6_A589_F4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gpXv4G)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iQPmBw/6_C7_BB73_C_00_AF_43_B1_8_BAE_8_BD3_FABC30_E6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b6atrw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mHndPG/0_CB5_BD3_D_8504_4_FBF_8_D0_A_320_BAE836374.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kjB54G)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bW8k4G/81_FCBF69_FF5_C_4420_929_C_31_AF21168259.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hnUEyb)
I made 2 of these today, one from stock about 0.033” and another from 0.040 stock. Then I tediously removed the sheet stock between the tabs until I had the rolled one piece long knuckle with the hinge pin at least partly exposed beneath. No idea why Fainot did it this way. He changed in later builds to multi-knuckle hinges completely encasing the hinge pin.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gcW54G/F2_DC04_C4_425_D_4499_9_AC1_1_DEE70833_F3_C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/exCZyb)
Next I will make the lid and rivet it. Same as last time, so this is the end of the show until I finish this box.
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"Yes, I'd like to see it as well. You fellows have certainly been making some interesting guns lately...."
Look who's talking Mr. Brooks! :-)
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Rich......do you take orders for side opening Pboxes? Would like you to make some Bucks County side openers which are very simple compared to what you're making. Just kidding, but if more Fainot guns are in your future, you should presently be making 3 ....or are you? Interesting post showing your skillful abilities......Fred
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Rich, I like this post a lot. Not only are you giving "play by play" on an unusual patchbox design , but you are constantly posting historical reference to go along with it. I like your approach. I have always thought that those Fainot guns were neat! And, look forward to seeing your rendition! Thanks Nate
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Fred, I’m finishing one Fainot, starting a second, then will do a third or possibly tackle a guess at the Leyendecker rifle (Eric Kettenburg has the side opening patchbox).
I like the early side openers. I’d have to charge about $300 for a Fainot box. Unless I go to laser cut kits I’d put together.
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Looking good Rich, truly the labor of love!
Curtis
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Excellent work and a truly interesting post, Rich. You'd be seriously undercharging for your work if you made those at only $300. Thanks for sharing and educating us.
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Thx, Jeff. A scroll saw would sure speed the process of cutting the surround. 1/26” brass is tough sledding with a jeweled saw.
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Rich this is really an excellent expose of the process involved in a box such as this. I love it and the box looks awesome.
The Leyendecker or #42 type is a piece of cake after this - nothing more than rolling some hinges/tubes and attaching to a piece of cast brass. The biggest pain in the a** with such side opening boxes is piloting and subsequently attaching the screws for the stock portion of the hinge to the inside of the box mortise. It's much easier if you make a dogleg/bent screwdriver for that kind of thing.
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Eric, the Leyendecker is on my “to build” list and I’m surprised and a little intimidated that nobody has yet dared to build a rifle around that box SFAIK. I find the folksy engraving on the Leyendecker box a little reminiscent of the Fainot boxes.
I’m torn between Antes architecture, #42/Deschler architecture, and other possibilities for the Leyendecker build. Step wrist or not is the question. I might even think about marrying the Leyendecker box to the architecture and carving of the “Ugly Bird Head Patchbox Rifle” RCA 84.
Here is the Fainot box, engraved.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kQ7RwS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dqtc37)