AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: walks with gun on December 13, 2017, 07:09:25 AM
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It seems to me at one time I read something about keeping rifle flints moist or storing them in water will make them last longer. Am I dreaming or anyone else ever heard or tried this.
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Considering they are rocks and have been around for thousands/millions/billions of years - how much longer do you want them to last? Complete nonsense, in my opinion...
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I would'nt worry bout them. Your flints and mine will be here long after both of us are gone
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The only way to make them last longer is don't scrape them across a frizzen.
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I used to do that 35 years ago because all the cool flint guys did it. I don't think it makes any difference.
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Take a bottle of your favorite whiskey, put a handful of flints in it. Put it in your shooting bag. That way if you get lost in the woods , you will have some extra flints , and something to drink too! ::)
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It seems to me at one time I read something about keeping rifle flints moist or storing them in water will make them last longer. Am I dreaming or anyone else ever heard or tried this.
Old story long discredited. I think it popped up in the old Buckskin Report
back in the 1970's.
Bob Roller
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Old story long discredited. I think it popped up in the old Buckskin Report
back in the 1970's.
Bob Roller
What, everything in the Buckskin Report wasn't gospel? I'm shocked, I mean Shocked!
I have the three volume bound collection of the Report and take one down for reading once in a while. Glad we have better information now then we did then.
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;D ;D It was "the thing to do" back in the 60's & 70's. Did not do a hill of beans for the flint. :o
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I don't know that soaking flints would make them last longer but flint knappers recommend heat treating flints in a very prescribed way for the removal of moisture so the stone will react to their knapping in a more predictable and favorable manner. That is for making tools and projectile points, probably has little impact on gun flints.
Robby
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The XXXperts from back in those days went out of their way to make shooting muzzleloaders in general, and flintlocks in particular, as complicated as possible. That’s were we got bullet weighing, rolling, and tumbling. Not to mention, that these guys are the source of most the crazy concoctions used to clean muzzleloaders, when cold water works just fine. Also the bullet lubes would fill a book, when tallow, and bear grease is about as good as it gets. Oh and let’s not forget hammering the patch, and ball, down bore like a cobbler on speed, because if you don’t, it won’t shoot straight at all. It’s a wonder the sport survived.
Hungry Horse
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I used to do that 35 years ago because all the cool flint guys did it. I don't think it makes any difference.
Well you just lost your 'cool' card for sure, dude.
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flint knappers recommend heat treating flints in a very prescribed way for the removal of moisture so the stone will react to their knapping in a more predictable and favorable manner. That is for making tools and projectile points, probably has little impact on gun flints.
Flint nodules are like opals. The moisture in them was compressed into them when they were formed under great pressure. When they are knapped, you can see the water spurt out of the nodule. This is also why they feel greasy. They are not heat treated prior to processing. Brittle flints have a very short life because they shatter and flake when fired in a lock.
Flint knappers who make arrowheads, knives and such heat treat them to make them easier to knap because it makes the rock brittle, but they are not knapping flint, they are knapping agate. Likewise, they are working from spalls, whereas the British and French knappers drive off long rods of flint which are then worked into gun flints. There is no native flint found in the USA, with the exception of a small area in the northeast.
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Store flints in water? That's one I've NEVER heard; and I thought I'd heard them all. ::)
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There is this river about + or- 250 miles west of me called Knife River and it's noted for its flint. If its actual flint or another hard rock I don't know but it was traded between the natives for centuries. Called Knife River Flint you can still find it in that area quite easy. There is a National Historic Site about 50 miles north west of Bismarck, ND where you can learn all about the Knife River Flint trade.
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Flint, Chert, Jasper, agate, picture stone, are all SiO2 or silicon dioxcide. The difference being the small trace to moderate amounts of other elements in it. Named different based on the additional minerals or where found or who found it. Glass and Obsidian are also SiO2, just in a almost pure form. Both can be knapped into tools but too fragile for gun flints. Slag glass is what most knappers use when starting out as it is uniform and fractures in a predictable pattern. Just wear heavy long sleeves and eye protection. The best material is broken commodes. Material knapps like a dream, doesn't cut you like glass and makes a nice white point. We made small triangular arrowheads and called them "Crapper Triangulars".
Lot of evidence in the archaeological record that flint/chert was often heat treated. Exact method is unknown but is believed to be packed in clay, buried in the fire and allowed to slow cool. Testing indicates it improves the fractures (more predicable ) and thus less waste.
What does this have to do with flints in water? Not much, but the discussion was taking several turns so it seemed fitting to toss this out. Plus it give me the chance to use two of my degrees that don't get used much.
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Don’t let the water freeze. It’s better to store in rum, for emergency purposes.
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I used to do that 35 years ago because all the cool flint guys did it. I don't think it makes any difference.
Well you just lost your 'cool' card for sure, dude.
You wouldn't believe how many times I have been told I "wasn't cool" since I started raising kids. I'm glad they are all raised and have found out how 'uncool' they're kids think they are. ;)
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I once bought a lump of 'flint' said to have come from the Chilcotin area of British Columbia. I knocked off some spauls and made a few arrow heads, but it was extremely tough, like English 'flint' to flake. So I put some spauls in the BBQ in a tray of sand, and then let them cool overnight. In the morning, the stone had become much more vibrant in colour, and it flaked much more easily, and with longer more predictable flakes. I used some of the stone, prior to 'baking' for gun flints, and they threw excellent sparks. After heat treating, they were useless. So the flint needs to be tough rather than hard and brittle, to make a good gun flint. Also, the scars made during flaking of the treated flint were greasy and smooth, whereas those on the untreated stone were more granular and dull (less reflective) looking. Knapping stone tools is fun, and is a great way to collect scar tissue.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fdj96FR%2FDSC05298.jpg&hash=5027ded995f58c0068f900b7ef406dcae72058f0) (http://ibb.co/eHkfaR)
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Thats a cool arrow head Taylor, it would be fun to make some but I already have as much scare tissue as I need. A guy might need one of those first aid kits if he made a lot of them. :)
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I used to do demonstrations at a number of historic sites - making arrowheads, and such out of flint and obsidian. I dressed in my brain tanned skins, and placed a sheet of canvas from my first tipi on the ground to catch the chips, and one over my lap to keep the blood from ruining my leggings
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There is no native flint found in the USA, with the exception of a small area in the northeast.
I am from southern Indiana where flint is found in great abundance. In Wyandotte cave, west of Corydon, there is a room called "the cloud room". The celing is covered with huge "cumulus clouds" which are limestone-covered nodes of black flint. Natives came from all over that part of the country to get flint for their tools and weapons. The man who was the sales agent for the Brandon knapper back in the 80s is a personal friend. On one of his visits to the US I gave him a couple of nodules of Indiana flint I had picked up from a creek bed to take back to the Brandon knapper to be made into gun flints. I received about 100 flints from those nodules and they worked well in my flintlocks but wore faster than Brandon flints.
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In a trip to "old" Jamestown some time ago, various craftsmen/women were busy doing what the Indians and Europeans accomplished hundreds of years ago. I spent time with an arrowhead knapper and watched him work. I talked with him about the stone he was using; can't exactly recall but it was some sort of quarts/granite or something like that. I asked about flint as the stone being used must have been more difficult to knapp. He told me that this was the kind of stone found in eastern Va. He said the flint was farther toward central/western Va. I do know that trade between Indian nations went back into the dim past with trade "alleged" even between Central American nations and North America.
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I do know that trade between Indian nations went back into the dim past with trade "alleged" even between Central American nations and North America.
Chonch shells found in Tennessee up through Ohio, Obsidian found in easter states from sites in WY, copper from the Great Lakes region found in the south, and corn from Meso America (southern Mexico) grown all through the US. Yea, they had a trade network.
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Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha, you old bucks are the reason this sport will never die. I wonder how many Indians are flipping in their graves reading about gun flints an arrow head point preparation. Crazy white man!!!!!.....ugg!!!!............sonny
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Somehow I can't imagine Tom Fuller pilling about baking his flint before making gun -flints!
Never heard of such (to me) tripe.
I used to pick up Late Paleolithic flint chards on the farm in Yorkshire, and use the larger bits for gun-flints. They all worked and better than any sawn/ground flint ever born. Sometimes I'd find a flint core, that had had slivers struck off for making scrapers and arrow heads, and usually kept these. Found plenty of arrow-heads and scrapers as well, and hung on to these.
The only thing I found that improved a flint was colour! Black transparent being best, and a brown toffee colour close behind.
I think some new makers must like to add mystery to this very simple business.
Maybe those flints from the '70's were supposed to be kept in a Leather-covered glass water-bottle..............like Everyone (!) had to have one time. LOLO!
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I think you all are confused by this water thing. All us old timers know that you should store your flints submerged in coal oil. They don't dry out and throw really hot sparks.
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I can't say if water helps flints, but I know salt water doesn't hurt them. A buddy picked up a coffee can full of french amber flints from the dredge spoils when they dredged St. Michaels harbor many years ago, guessed they were dumped ballast from colonial days. They shot very well with lots of spark!
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We used to get gunflints from I think it was "The Royal George" from when she foundered.
Flint is impervious, and whether it's been in water or not it all works the same.
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I use CCI musket caps. Spark every time.
Ok ok don't hit me. I'm old.
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Pete, them there musket caps only work once though! LOL!!
Merry Christmas!
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As a professional archaeologist, I can tell you that there is an extensive archaeological literature on heat treating cherts and other tool stone. One of the desirable properties of chert/flint is that it is isotrophic, meaning that a skillful knapper can initiate and propagate fracture in almost any direction. Heating some cherts to a certain temperature increases the isotrophy making it easier to control fracturing. What does this have to do with flintlocks? Not a durn thing as the heat treating also makes the chert more brittle which is not a good thing. So don’t cook your gunflints and don’t bother storing them in water or other liquid as that does not make them less brittle as some folks used to believe.
However, if you store them in molasses your every shot will hit the sweet spot. Or so I’ve been told.
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Pete, them there musket caps only work once though! LOL!!
Merry Christmas!
You should have told me that before. No wonder I can't get them to work again.
Merry Christmas to you and everybody here.
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However, if you store them in molasses your every shot will hit the sweet spot. Or so I’ve been told.
Brilliant! Molasses it is! ...or how about honey?
Merry Christmas!
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However, if you store them in molasses your every shot will hit the sweet spot. Or so I’ve been told.
Brilliant! Molasses it is! ...or how about honey?
Merry Christmas!
You'll get less miss-understandings from your wife if you take molasses out, than if you tell her your going out hunting with honey!
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An interesting theory.I've seen knappers actually soak flint and other knapable stones in water to soften them before knapping.
When I worked in a slate quarry,I used to wet the slate pieces before trimming them to size because it would soften them (And more to reduce dust).Water does soften slate,I've felt/seen the difference in the slate.Whether it does for heat treated flint,no idea.
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Slate very porous, and yes, it splits better wet, quite agree.. Wet slate very bad to walk on as well! LOL!
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Slate very porous, and yes, it splits better wet, quite agree.. Wet slate very bad to walk on as well! LOL!
LOL I slipped on my share of that too ::)
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how about oil?
Recall an old ad, old like 18th century Williamsburg, VA newspaper, for "oiled English gun flints"
curious, but all I could find on 'net discussed water or heat treating.
Will probably always wonder why they sold their gun flints oiled in some manner.
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No clue on the oiling J, other than maybe in bulk, they didn't dull each other if slick!
Make them shine nicely as well.
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There is actually no true "flint" found anywhere in North America...it only comes from cretaceous chalk beds like those found in England and France. Heat treating of some cherts (or to be formal about it - "crypto-crystalline silicates" has nothing to do with water or the lack thereof but rather altering the crystalline structure. I don't quite recall all the details and physics of it but it tends to give cherts a glassy appearance and can increase the workability. It can also dramatically alter the color. For example, some white cherts (like those found in Illinois and elsewhere) can turn almost un-natural hues of orange, pink, and red. I don't doubt for one moment that prehistorically there wasn't an aesthetic reason for heat treating as well as a functional one. As for heat treating techniques - if you put 100 flintknappers in a room, you'll get 100 different methods.
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how about oil?
Recall an old ad, old like 18th century Williamsburg, VA newspaper, for "oiled English gun flints"
I posted earlier about them being stored in coal oil and that's how I had always stored mine. This used to be the trend and I had never heard about anyone storing them in water. They remain with a greasy feel and throw nice, sizzely sparks.
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Isn't oil what we try to keep off the flint before firing? Why am I wiping them down with alcohol?
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Coal oil isn't oil pre se...........it's more akin to kerosine.
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I was told native Americans stored there flint below ground and I assume this had something to do with moisture , but they could be wrong (maybe) !
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Clearly, the best reason to store your flints in a jug of water is, to make them easy to find when you need a few.
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"The XXXperts from back in those days went out of their way to make shooting muzzleloaders in general, and flintlocks in particular, as complicated as possible. That’s were we got bullet weighing, rolling, and tumbling. Not to mention, that these guys are the source of most the crazy concoctions used to clean muzzleloaders, when cold water works just fine. Also the bullet lubes would fill a book, when tallow, and bear grease is about as good as it gets. Oh and let’s not forget hammering the patch, and ball, down bore like a cobbler on speed, because if you don’t, it won’t shoot straight at all. It’s a wonder the sport survived."
Hungry Horse
legitimate question, but...who cares?
Thanks , Horse
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I used to do that 35 years ago because all the cool flint guys did it. I don't think it makes any difference.
Well you just lost your 'cool' card for sure, dude.
You wouldn't believe how many times I have been told I "wasn't cool" since I started raising kids. I'm glad they are all raised and have found out how 'uncool' they're kids think they are. ;)
[/glow]
That is sooooo funny! and So true! ;)
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I've heard that if you brush your teeth before shooting with "spit patches", your groups will be better........or is it you friends will like you better.....I can't remember.
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". Oh and let’s not forget hammering the patch, and ball, down bore like a cobbler on speed, because if you don’t, it won’t shoot straight at all. It’s a wonder the sport survived."
Hungry Horse
legitimate question, but...who cares?
Thanks , Horse
Who remembers the device that fit over the end of your ramrod that measured the amount of pressure you had on the ball?
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". Oh and let’s not forget hammering the patch, and ball, down bore like a cobbler on speed, because if you don’t, it won’t shoot straight at all. It’s a wonder the sport survived."
Hungry Horse
legitimate question, but...who cares?
Thanks , Horse
Who remembers the device that fit over the end of your ramrod that measured the amount of pressure you had on the ball?
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Should the percussion guys keep their caps in water?
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On'y if they like a wet head, David.
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I DARE you to put those water soaked flints in the fire to "heat treat" them..... I am walking away as fast as I can before all $#*! breaks loose in the fire pit! :o
Played a trick like that on some HS class mates once.... Sounded like gunfire and looked like a bunch of drunken teenagers dancing around the fire as they were getting hit with shrapnel...
I was a stinker..... ::) ;D ;D
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To heat treat flint, you bury the stone in about 6" of dry sand, and gently build a big fire over the pile. Sustain the fire for eight hours and let it die on its own. Next day unearth the flint and it will have changed it's texture from dull grey/black to glossy/glassy black. And your gun flints will no longer work in your rifle...they will not be tough enough, but they will flake nicely.
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Can they be returned to being a usable rifle flint after that, Taylor?
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Can they be returned to being a usable rifle flint after that, Taylor?
Leave the flints and caps alone.Store the powder horn or flask under water.
Bob Roller
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I've heard that if you brush your teeth before shooting with "spit patches", your groups will be better........or is it you friends will like you better.....I can't remember.
Brush your teeth with Sani Flush,it cleans your teeth without a brush.
Bob Roller
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Who remembers the device that fit over the end of your ramrod that measured the amount of pressure you had on the ball?
[/quote]
That was the Accupacker. It was designed to ensure the same amount of pressure was applied to the powder each time you loaded the gun by increasing the amount of pressure on the loading rod until the device clicked, similar to the feel of using a spring loaded center punch.
I got one off a prize blanket when I was a nubie.
Richard
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Was that acupacker the same as the kadotie (sp)
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OK, here's the straight truth: Soak your gunflints in Blue vervain and rue for incredible accuracy!
http://online.snh.cc/files/2100/HTML/drcn_issue_10___blue_vervain.htm
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Daryl: no, once heat treated the flint will no longer be any good for your rifle. Heat treating flint is for spauls of flint, whose properties change during heat treating yielding stone that flakes more easily and leaves a glassy scar...projectile points. The edge created on flaking heat treated flint is thinner and sharper than prior to heat treating, and the resulting point is more beautiful, as well. Many kinds of flint change colours into some amazing hues.
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TKS Taylor. I sort of figured that, but thought others might want that information as well.
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". Oh and let’s not forget hammering the patch, and ball, down bore like a cobbler on speed, because if you don’t, it won’t shoot straight at all. It’s a wonder the sport survived."
Hungry Horse
legitimate question, but...who cares?
Thanks , Horse
Who remembers the device that fit over the end of your ramrod that measured the amount of pressure you had on the ball?
I remember this device.It was used for bullet guns like an Alex Henry or Rigby.
On this type of rifle,according to some,the weight of the loading rod should seat that
500+grain bullet and the use of a compression spring loading rod would help to
assure the powder compression was a bit more uniform than the "Two Taps"method.
This rod probably was useless with a patched round ball but with a specialty long rande
rifle it has a place.
Bob Roller
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I've done it; I still do it.
OK so long ago I heard that the edge stays longer..., so stuck them in a mason jar full of water and put it in the fridge. Measured the water level before and a day later checked.., it had slightly dropped. ???
Now I can't tell if the flints last longer, and why would they? Why wouldn't the water evaporate from the flint after a few days in my lock's jaws? :-\
So why do I still do it? Makes for a very safe place to store the flints..., they don't get lost, and they don't get knocked off the shelf and the jar broken, nor do they fall and get scattered on the floor. 8)
LD