AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on December 14, 2017, 07:03:19 AM
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There have been some inquiries about lock polishing and tuning. I will show how I polish and lightly tune a lock that works great out of the box. The goals are to present a lock with polished surfaces inside and out, ready to use, case harden, brown or blue, and to reduce friction.
This show and tell is for newbies. Nothing here to see for experienced builders.
There are many approaches. This one uses few expensive items. It will take me a while to get this done and maybe it will be a tutorial. Please limit replies to questions and critique to save space.
Hippocratic oath of lock polishing and tuning: First, do no harm!
This means we will strive to not ruin the fit of parts by over-filing or polishing and will not make any lock less safe.
Lock disassembly
Here is the lock.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mpwaQR/3915_A712_0864_486_B_80_C0_0_A4_AFADE84_D4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/d6ypkR)
Remove the mainspring using a mainspring vise with lock on full cock.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nzqVs6/1_B1176_B6_870_C_4212_AD62_8_A5_F1118_FB6_C.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mhgs5R)
Remove the mainspring vise.
(https://preview.ibb.co/caO5QR/FFE3_E298_DAA0_46_D1_93_E1_58197_E151984.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eeqVs6)
Use the mainspring vise to remove the frizzen spring next.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hHCMzm/97_E290_BC_6943_4850_B481_CA9672_F5_A657.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j5Eqs6)
Remove internals: sear spring, sear, and bridle. Now see the fly.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hbczkR/D92_B2_A68_097_B_4_D7_F_8_E2_A_97_FA808_A0_D71.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bKFVs6)
Remove the fly and know it is an escape artist. I tape it to a piece o& paper and fold it up.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mba8em/FE86_DE4_B_2_BE5_4_C9_E_ADB0_B2_D9_D01_C40_BB.jpg) (http://ibb.co/miJ5QR)
Now we will drive the tumbler off the cock. I lay the plate across open vise jaws with a catch cloth beneath. Then I punch it with a quickly made brass punch.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iXFAQR/FB8_C7672_0_FD2_4996_8154_A3_B54_CF88891.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5iKKm)
There we are, all disassembled and parts in a container.
(https://preview.ibb.co/egaAQR/E8119328_5284_4701_8_EC8_5_A664_A42_EC26.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gOcPkR)
Polish plate and pan
Do no harm. There is a great fit of pan to plate. You can make it a lot worse by over-filing or polishing. Below in pencil I am showing where we have to be careful to not remove any more than necessary to remove pebbled, as-cast surface.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkEtem/71_E28920_BD22_4604_89_C3_074_FA6_AD0386.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e7SDem)
Lock plates are never perfectly flat and do not need to be. But we are using flat files for first step. A coarse and fine side.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kDCeKm/D86_CFD93_F0_DB_4_F83_AF0_D_4_C5856_EBC7_E2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nd4Fs6)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gYaYem/C62_E008_E_CD5_D_4_A6_E_8_F55_946_E545_E92_EB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ea7PkR)
To remove as little as possible, protect where the pan will fit, and get the plate reasonably flat I file the outside of the plate in 3 directions. Angling 10 o’clock to 4 o’clock, 2 o’clock to 8 o’clock, and 9 to 3 to sort of blend. There will always be a dish somewhere to file down to. Also be careful up where the frizzen pivots. Remove as little as possible there to reduce polishing-induced slop.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jgS1X6/AF783_D8_F_5383_4_CB6_A419_6827_E455_BE47.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dHOas6)
Showing directions I file.
(https://preview.ibb.co/n1b6zm/CD3_AC8_F3_918_A_4931_8_C87_48576936_D399.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fS5zKm)
First I file. Then I polish with successive grits of 150, 220,and 320 paper backed by files. Might as well go to 320 on whatever piece I am polishing and call it done b
Next we will file then polish the edges. I use a #2 half round file and needle files.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c07zkR/725_A166_A_1_D84_4149_98_A2_F504_C64_AF092.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jTeqs6)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dScoem/09_BA0_B78_4_E19_43_A8_B43_F_6_FBC0_DE2_E7_B5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/do2zkR)
On the pan assembly, do not mess with the area that engages the lock plate, or risk a loose fit.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jrSX5R/4_EBBB10_D_B058_48_B3_9_C23_E055_FF9_CB4_DA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ea63C6)
Ok now we have plate and pan polished.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mDR3C6/A02057_D1_B20_D_41_A1_ACB3_4_F8_E783_E2_A89.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dbSX5R)
Tomorrow: the dreaded frizzen.
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I'm glad you're posting this, Rich. I'm in the process of cleaning up TRS castings. It's always good to see how someone else does it.
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Singlemalt, thanks. Just a note on projects like yours: when assembling a lock that needs drilling and tapping, of course, we would polish all the guts and fit them before drilling to keep tolerances tight. I’m thinking of final sear thickness matching tumbler thickness inside the plate and both determining height of bridle, etc.
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That's the plan. Remove the casting lines and polish the part, repeat.
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Thanks for taking time to show this.
Cory Joe Stewart
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Just in time for me... I was wondering how to tackle this task on my first rifle. Thank you.
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"This show and tell is for newbies. Nothing here to see for experienced builders."
Watch us old Dogs learn a new trick:)
Good stuff Rich, Thanks for taking the time to document and post.
Tim
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Rich, Taping the elusive fly to paper is a HUGE tip for all !!! I started putting them in a folded piece of masking tape about ten years ago , and it has saved me MUCH FRUSTATION since then . It really is a pain to have to hunt for a fly , especially when your on final assembly. Great Tip!! Nate
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A good start! And this is priceless advice:
"Hippocratic oath of lock polishing and tuning: First, do no harm!
This means we will strive to not ruin the fit of parts by over-filing or polishing and will not make any lock less safe."
My dad used to say, "if it ain't broke.....Chris will screw with it until it is...."
The only thing I'd add at this point is that I refrain from removing the frizzen if it can be avoided at all. Sure it is easier to polish both plate and pan that way, but in my experience I never get the pan back quite where it came from and I end up with gaps beteween the frizzen and pan. This is a total pain to fix!
Can't wait to see the rest! Thanks Rich,
CE
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Rich, Taping the elusive fly to paper is a HUGE tip for all !!! I started putting them in a folded piece of masking tape about ten years ago , and it has saved me MUCH FRUSTATION since then . It really is a pain to have to hunt for a fly , especially when your on final assembly. Great Tip!! Nate
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-magnetic-parts-tray-90566.html
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Rich, Taping the elusive fly to paper is a HUGE tip for all !!! I started putting them in a folded piece of masking tape about ten years ago , and it has saved me MUCH FRUSTATION since then . It really is a pain to have to hunt for a fly , especially when your on final assembly. Great Tip!! Nate
Scota4570 , I use one to put my small parts in . What I don't like about them is that the magnet gets covered in steel shavings , and I have had flies escape from them as well. The tape trick is my go to fly treatment , it saves me that much angst!! I can pop it out of the tape or tape it up MUCH quicker , than I can crawl around looking for it. JMHO Nate
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-magnetic-parts-tray-90566.html
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I like your idea of taping the fly. My last build from a Siler kit I spent a lot of time on hands and knees sweeping the shop floor with a magnet to retrieve the little bugger. :o :o
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Great topic Rich. I too have been tapping the fly to a old plastic bullet box that I store the rest of the parts in. It can be frustrating looking for that little bugger when you have lots of wood shavings on the shop floor that you should have cleaned up. I have one of those magnets with the extendable handles that will find it most times!
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The Dreaded Frizzen
Now we are on to the dreaded frizzen. Dreaded because it is already hardened and fitted. It takes me an hour and a half to polish a frizzen.
In the Do No Harm category: take care to not reduce the width of the toe where the frizzen pivot bolt passes. This is a somewhat critical dimension. Also do not polish the pan lid part of the frizzen beyond a tiny amount, on the edges where it seals against the pan.
My tools of choice include needle files if the toe and spur are tempered enough to use files on them, a 600 grit diamond stone to lightly polish the sides of the toe and the pan lid, an old school farm scythe carborundum stone on a red handle, and the usual 150, 220, and 320 grit wet or dry sandpaper.
(https://preview.ibb.co/e8EdVR/82_D33709_2_DB0_4_ED2_A354_958_BFCA890_B0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jdHMjm)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ehctx6/1575232_D_3176_4_F11_BF38_A9_F79_EDE4863.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dRBxPm)
One can really bear down with that big red handled stone and it should be good for about 500 frizzens I guess.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kawQAR/7_B172673_211_D_4061_9_AB9_79_F1_A6_B6_FB82.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nm7nPm)
Now you will discover there are some stubborn pits here and there. When that happens I use some very inexpensive, coarse, diamond coated needle files. I’ve seen jewelry with smaller diamonds on it.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ng7nPm/5_A3_D3946_A1_DA_48_C0_8_D6_F_AEDEDD706_FC8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mn63x6)
Then I polish successively with finer grades of sandpaper. The frizzen will have a different appearance than the lockplate. It’s different steel and it’s hard.
And, about an hour and a half later, done.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kLS1H6/2_DCFB83_C_398_E_4762_8363_1338_C387_CF7_F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dtvAAR)
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Finishing up
Now on to small parts. This is all pretty straightforward. The top jaw can be tricky to hold so I screw it down to a piece of pine for filing and polishing.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nFHLC6/06_A61_D26_19_ED_4_D4_F_8_C8_A_900297_E980_C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mihns6)
I like to make some little teeth to help the leather wrapping the flint from slipping. A graver or even a center punch can be used for this.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kMZiX6/6273_E97_E_E47_B_4_D98_B896_7939_CB18_AA29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d2kqC6)
Bridle: Not much to show for filing and polishing the bridle. The Do No Harm rule says remove next to nothing from the bottom of the “legs” so when screwed down, it doesn’t bind the bridle.
Mainspring: cleaning up inside the arms is tedious but contributes to a clean look. Never significantly reduce thickness of the working arm. A 10% reduction in thickness results in a 20% loss of force. So regardless of any tiny pits you may find, don’t get carried away. The only tuning needs you might encounter on a mainspring are to relieve the working arm if it is scraping the lockplate and to polish the nose where it rides on the tumbler. Not needed with this lock. So all polishing was cosmetic.
Frizzen spring: same rules. It’s all cosmetic except if the working arm is scraping the plate or if the top of the arm where it presses on the frizzen toe needs polishing. Not needed here, so just filed and polished for cosmetics.
Sear: Do No Harm rules include not reducing thickness, and leaving the nose of the sear completely alone. Do polish the top of the upper arm where the sear spring presses on it.
(https://preview.ibb.co/n1Sqem/850565_E2_9_EB9_4203_BD7_F_9244_EF87554_A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kUrGKm)
Sear spring: all polishing is cosmetic except where the arm presses on the top of the sear arm.
Tumbler: Do No Harm rules include: leave the notches alone, do not polish either axle, and do not polish the sides so as to not reduce dimensions. Do polish the top of the foot where the mainspring tip rides. Any other polishing is cosmetic.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c3T7QR/49_CE8758_783_E_4_B07_A6_FD_FACC808160_A0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cZLyX6)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nqMYzm/1_BABEEC3_CFE6_4_AE4_B312_9_D1_E39_C47790.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gRH6Km)
Top jaw and tumbler screws: I open the slots with a slitting file and hand polish to 320. You could chuck them up in a drill and polish them that way if you like.
Ok, before re-assembling, clean all the grit off your parts and use a-tips to clean grit out of all screw holes and the tumbler hole in the lockplate.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jdhHQR/0_FA4_B5_A5_6637_41_F0_B44_D_483_DC4_F128_C9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bYKLem)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nci2s6/272_C8_E72_3_EC1_45_E7_B0_E9_D371387_A8957.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hVoDzm)
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Nice job, Rich. And great tutorial. I like the idea of using the big stone to dress the frizzen. I have four such stones and it never occurred to me to use them for this purpose. I always wear out a few miles of expensive aluminum oxide and silicon dioxide cloth getting the frizzen down to a uniform smoothness. Thanks Rich!!
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Thanks for this, Rich.
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Rich thank you for doing this. Very much appreciated....!
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Thank you very much for this tutorial.
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Hi Rich,
Well done!! This should help a lot of folks.
dave
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Ya know i've seen those big stones with a handle on them at flea markets, cheap, now I'll never find one again. Now that I have a use for one. BJH
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Is it typical on siler locks for the pan to be a separate casting from the lock plate?
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Yes the Siler lock design always was a two piece, plate and pan design. BJH
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If the lock did not come from a Chamber's shop assembler or if it was required (i.e oval , as cast, already undersize, canted) I'd polish the axles and any parts of the tumbler that bear on the plate/bridal/mainspring, If that resulted in too much slop then the lock needs a bushing and or or a new bridal. Ignoring a problem out of fear seldom makes the problem or fear go away ;)
I find it kind of misleading to polish a mechanical device to a point that suggests a high degree of atttention while not attending to any issues that may exist in it's unseen heart.
I'd replace "do no harm" with "consider the totality of your actions"
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Good point, ddoyle. This demo is for less experienced builders and a good Siler lock. Maybe over time we will add “fixes”.
Safe fixing of a rough tumbler axle or tumbler lockplate hole or both
Toothpaste. Yep, make your lock minty fresh and smooth at the same time. Toothpaste is a very fine polish. It’s not going to change dimensions. Smear the lockplate hole, bridle hole, and tumbler axles with toothpaste. Install the tumbler, bridle, and cock. Go watch some TV or read a book and rotate the cock back and forth a few hundred times. This is an old bicycle mechanics trick from the old days. They’d take a wheel with rough bearings and bearing races, pack with toothpaste, and go ride 10 miles. Of course now we throw stuff away.
When done polishing with toothpaste, the toothpaste should look grimy gray and you should feel a difference in smoothness. Remember to rinse.
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Nice job Rich over all, clean up and posting. Will you do me a favor and show how you got your main spring back on. Did you use your spring vice?
Thanks, Tim
PS: FWIW, years ago I started using a piece of flat refrigerator magnet to hold flies, cut a piece, put it in a mason jar top put the fly on it, haven't lost one since. TC
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Rich, it would be great if you would do a tutorial on fixes. Thanks
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Rich, it would be great if you would do a tutorial on fixes. Thanks
There’s still more for me to fill in here, polishing the pan for example.
And I’d have to have a problem lock, which inevitably leads to bashing of suppliers. So it may be a while. If anyone has an old 1980s Lott lock to donate to the project, let’s do it! That would be non-controversial.
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Rich, it would be great if you would do a tutorial on fixes. Thanks
... I’d have to have a problem lock, which inevitably leads to bashing of suppliers. So it may be a while. If anyone has an old 1980s Lott lock to donate to the project, let’s do it! That would be non-controversial.
I have several locks in hand, to tune and polish for a project I'm working. Give me a few weeks: with my ham-fisted approach to work both fine and coarse, I'm sure I'll... errr... goof one up sufficiently to qualify as a "problem" lock in need of repair. I'd be happy to donate one for the addition to the tutorial section.
;)
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I like the toothpaste idea, Rich!
Curtis
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The toothpaste trick is also useful for scratches in the paint on your car as well. However, not all toothpaste has the same level of abrasiveness. Go here to find out how different brands and types compare:
https://www.strobeldentistry.com/abrasiveness-of-toothpastes.html
For example, Arm & Hammer Dental Care has an abrasive rating of 35, while Crest Regular is 95, and Colgate Advanced Whitening is rated at 200. So, if you want the tumbler to wear in more quickly, you might want to go with the Colgate.
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The toothpaste trick is also useful for scratches in the paint on your car as well. However, not all toothpaste has the same level of abrasiveness. Go here to find out how different brands and types compare:
https://www.strobeldentistry.com/abrasiveness-of-toothpastes.html
For example, Arm & Hammer Dental Care has an abrasive rating of 35, while Crest Regular is 95, and Colgate Advanced Whitening is rated at 200. So, if you want the tumbler to wear in more quickly, you might want to go with the Colgate.
I've used fine valve grinding compound for the same effect. It certainly cuts quickly.
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Rich,
I hear ya on trying to keep things focused and not bashy. Really tho no one should expect a 'near perfect' lock for less then 200 dollars (unless they are getting it from Jim) as long as the budget lock is fixable then the customer probabley got exactly what they paid for.
I have said it before and I stand by it- Locks should cost 500 bucks and a Barrel should cost the same- Any offered at a lower price point MUST have some shortcomings. (see parenthesis above) Acknowledging these short comings is not bashing it is helping to further the appreciation for well built locks and it helps to improve the saftey, reliability and shooting performance of muzzleloading side locks. In the long run educated customers are the best thing for someone trying to make a living at lock manufacture.
Sad concern this bashing thing but it is certainly PC in this age of coddling. Kind of like elementary schools and colleges give children ribbons and prizes for coming in 4th , 5th , 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, ........23rd.....65th meanwhile the kid that worked thier fingers to the bone stands and gets the same reward as those who did the minimum................ hmmmmm sounds kind of commie to me. ;) :-X
Hope you can teach more
RE the valve rouge mentioned above. Mr Rase mentioned some years ago on ALR that the way he fit axles was to make them a real tight fit and then spin them with Rouge to fit. Best hint ever. Before I read that I was trying (and failing) to measure my way to an acceptable fit. Those little tidbits of knowledge are so valuable.
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Rich, it would be great if you would do a tutorial on fixes. Thanks
There’s still more for me to fill in here, polishing the pan for example.
And I’d have to have a problem lock, which inevitably leads to bashing of suppliers. So it may be a while. If anyone has an old 1980s Lott lock to donate to the project, let’s do it! That would be non-controversial.
This is a good tutorial, Rich. Thank you.
I've been looking for an answer to a question I have so I can do no harm to my lock during polishing and haven't found it yet.
I have a chambers late ketland, so I don't have to worry about the fit between pan and plate, but I have a couple of dips in the plate between the tumbler hole and the pan bottom that I'm having trouble removing. It seems I've filed and 80grit sanded the thing forever and still haven't gotten down to that dip. Is there any risk of ruining fit of other parts by continued metal removal on the external plate surface?
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Most cast plates have some dips. So long as you keep full thickness at the tumbler axle hole you can go as far as you need elsewhere.
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Yikes. I have been indiscriminately filing and sanding the entire surface. I now understand the circle drawn around the tumbler hole on one of your pictures and will stay away from that area.
What are the effects of thinning that portion too much?
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A few thousandths won’t matter but you don’t want it filed so far down that the bearing surface supporting the tumbler axle is thin and there’s a big gap behind the cock when seated on the square shaft.
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Hi HU,
As Rich pointed out, you can take the outside of the lock plate down quite a bit as long as you don't expose too much tumbler post or create slop in the fit of the frizzen. However, the outside of the plate is not the biggest concern as long as you get rid of the cast surface. The inside of the plate is where you want the surface flat and smooth.
dave
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Another "thumbs Up". Good read.
Miss you at the club shoots...
Regards,
DGB
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HU, the Chambers Late Ketland I’m using right now has the same dip between the pan and tumbler hole. I filed as much off the lock plate as I’m comfortable with, quite a bit, but I still have a 1/4”-3/8” circular area at the upper part of the lock plate that’s low.
I’m calling it good and will just sand and polish now. The cock covers some of the area so shouldn’t be too noticeable.
Bob
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Great. Thank you all for the information. I think I'll put the file away and start working up in finish
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Thanks for taking your time to share this, well done
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I have made it to the frizzen spring, finally. It seems that it takes a fair bit of metal removal to get the casting lines off and cast surface removed. Will that really not affect the frizzen opening force and balance to the hammer?
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I have made it to the frizzen spring, finally. It seems that it takes a fair bit of metal removal to get the casting lines off and cast surface removed. Will that really not affect the frizzen opening force and balance to the hammer?
I’ve not had a problem but admit some of those frizzen springs are feather-thin!
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Rich,
I’am impressed by your thorough tutorial !
Please comment on your recommendations on
Oiling / greasing a lock! 🤔
Thanks!!
Dave R
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I lube the tumbler hole and both faces of the tumbler with a thin film of grease. “Grease gun” grease will do fine if you have some. But I make sure the fly is not gooped up. I add the same, just a smear, on the toe of the tumbler and lock screws which are really axles (sear screw and frizzen pivot screw). The top of the sear behind the pivot, where the sear spring rubs, gets a thin film, as does the toe of the frizzen where it rides on the sear spring. All these can be added on a toothpick as an applicator. In a pinch I’ve used mink oil, petroleum jelly, and even greasy sunscreen when nothing else was available.