AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: RockLock92 on December 15, 2017, 04:35:32 AM
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Hello,
The other day my father and I pinned a barrel for a Lehigh that I’m putting together. Long story short I marked the pins based off of info I found in The Gunsmith of Grenville County and as it turns out the pin closest to the muzzle is too close (in the book there’s a chart listing ramrod pipe and nosecap lengths based off different schools/ makers and the two Lehigh nose caps are a bit... atypical.. my fault for not checking beforehand). Anyway I planned it out for a 1 1/8 nosecap and the length I need is closer to 1 3/8... I can still get the nosecap on there, but there will maybe be 1/4 inch between the front pin and the nosecap. My question is should I try and repin the barrel and try to hide my screw up or is it not glaring enough to worry about. It’s my first build so I could use any advice offered.
Thanks,
Brad
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnfbKLR%2Fimage.jpg&hash=130e03cac468a47b9a27410e03d5c35d3b3821f4) (http://ibb.co/h2qeLR)
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If you think its necessary to move it do it. plug the holes and move on. You may as well learn how to cover your mistakes as anyone who builds usually make several.
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If you think its necessary to move it do it. plug the holes and move on. You may as well learn how to cover your mistakes as anyone who builds usually make several.
Do you have any advice on how to plug the holes? I considered a longer nosecap but then I thought it would look funky as well.
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I've used round maple toothpicks before and sometimes slivers made from waste chunks I chiseled from the stock.
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It appears that you would need to move the lug, re-cut the dovetail, install the lug then drill for the pin. I'd say leave it alone...
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Is that under lug soldered on or dovetailed in?
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It appears that you would need to move the lug, re-cut the dovetail, install the lug then drill for the pin. I'd say leave it alone...
So would you use a 1 inch cap or squeeze in a 1 1/4 or 1 3/8? I guess what I’m asking is what screams I screwed up the least?
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Is that under lug soldered on or dovetailed in?
Dovetailed
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I've used round maple toothpicks before and sometimes slivers made from waste chunks I chiseled from the stock.
I didn’t even realize those existed...
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I might be missing something, but I don't see a problem with doing a 1 1/8" or a 1 3/8" muzzle cap with what you have there. Lehighs' typically have a cap that is inlet into the stock, with the "nose" open with wood exposed.
Ed
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What Ed said +1. I would leave it where it is.
Curtis
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I might be missing something, but I don't see a problem with doing a 1 1/8" or a 1 3/8" muzzle cap with what you have there. Lehighs' typically have a cap that is inlet into the stock, with the "nose" open with wood exposed.
Ed
I was worried it would look weird with the front pin so close to the muzzle cap
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Once finished, no one will notice, and after time you will not care about it. Learn from this and do more planning before you start. I try to have everything laid out before I start, but things do happen and you have to be flexible. I'd just leave it.
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I agree with all of the others. In general, I believe that things should be done "right", meaning that if it's a Lehigh and Lehighs typically had 1.5" muzzle caps, that you should probably try to imitate that, but sometimes we get carried away by trying to make everything perfect. If you choose to go with .25" less on the cap, I seriously doubt that many people are going to call you on it. If you go with the "standard cap" and the barrel pin is a quarter of an inch away, again, who's going to see that on the range or while you're hunting and point it out? I suppose good planning avoids many or most of these mistakes, but we're all human and we all make them. Either shorten the muzzle cap, plug and replace the barrel pin at the appropriate location (pain in the neck from where I'm standing) or leave everything alone and accept that your barrel pin is probably a bit closer to the muzzle cap than you would have considered ideal. Life goes on. If this is the only mistake or issue that you have with the rifle when you're done, you're considerably better at this than I am.
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It'll look fine the way it is. Also, while the book you referenced is an excellent aid, I've found it to be a tad too technical in many respects. I'm not bashing the book, but it's caused me some consternation as well. I've found that words like "always" and "never" rarely fit the American Longrifle. While there is some consistency in various regional influences like muzzlecap length and pin placement, there are many more examples where these things are all over the place. Again, I think it'll look fine the way it is, and look forward to seeing your rifle progression, and final result.
Ed
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It will be fine. Throw that book away.
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It will be fine. Throw that book away.
Brad, I have the book also and find it a little confusing but since I'm still on my first build I'll peek at it now and then.
If that was my rifle I'd leave it as is and do what these guys suggest, they've made a believer out of me.
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Rocklock , It wouldn't be a big deal , to move the tennon back , you`ve already cut the dovetail once right ? it`s just more practice cutting dovetails right? If your using a premade MC it probably is 2 inches long to start with .Most real short MCs that I have seen were on earlier guns . This will cover the holes you have already drilled. Make a tight fitting little filler plate for your old dovetail and move along. It has taken me longer to type this than it would have to have done it. JMHO Nate
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Your barrel pin will be ok. First thing cut your stock off so you have 1/16 in. of barrel past the end of the stock. Measure from the end of the stock to the pin and take off 1/4 or 3/8 in. Check out Mike Brooks tutorial and see how he makes his nose caps. However you will want to make one with a shallow groove for the ramrod and leave the end open,exposing the wood. When you finish sand leave the end square,just nock the sharp edge off the cap.
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Since you can't go out and paw an original Lehigh Valley Rifle, it might be a good idea for you to consider one of Erik's plans. These are taken from real...original Lehighs.
http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/plans.html
The pin is in...so is the lug...it's done...move on.
If you note Erik's plans, he has 5 Lehigh Valley Rifles. 3 of the 5 use a open end, grooved, V shaped nose cap that matches the same profile or continues the the V of the upper forestock to the muzzle.
1 of the 5 uses a groove V shaped cap like the others but there is a slight transition to the V shaped forestock ramrod groove.
Lastly, 1 of the 5 uses a round nosecap and the upper forestock transitions into that V shape.
None of these rifles would be affected by your pin placement.
You are good.
I suspect you have a pre-made cap. To get these right depending on what style of cap you go with, really you need to make a cap that matches the forestock. Especially if you go with the Lehigh Grooved V.
Do not modify a potential $ 3000 rifle for a $ 3 dollar part. Modify or make that part.
Lastly....none of these rifles were ever exactly the same....each one was an individual....with it's individual details. Pin placement being one of these.
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Your barrel pin will be ok. First thing cut your stock off so you have 1/16 in. of barrel past the end of the stock. Measure from the end of the stock to the pin and take off 1/4 or 3/8 in. Check out Mike Brooks tutorial and see how he makes his nose caps. However you will want to make one with a shallow groove for the ramrod and leave the end open,exposing the wood. When you finish sand leave the end square,just nock the sharp edge off the cap.
Not so fast. Some of these show the cap going plumb to the muzzle.
Once it's cut off, it's gone. Little details like this are for the builder to decide.
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I believe if you look a little closer at Eric`s drawings that most of the MCs come back at least even with the base of the front sight. I see what everyone is saying about it already being done, but I still think he`s going to end up with a pretty short muzzlecap compared to most original Lehighs. Also look at the pin placement on the drawings that show the pins , they are a good 3 to 4 inches back from the muzzle. I will still stick with my original assessment , if it was me I would move the tennon and, put a MC on it that was longer. Is this really a hard thing to do? Nate
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If I were doing it, I'd cut a new dovetail in the correct spot, move the pin back and use an open ended grooved cap with the "V" rather than "U" format.
To avoid issues like this in the future, make a scale drawing of the rifle you want to build, including everything that will go into it. Or buy one of Eric's wonderful drawings. Or both.
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Here is my take on this: It is your first build and you will make mistakes (I do not consider this a mistake). You are not building this rifle to go and be judged at Dixions. You want it to be near correct as possible. You want it to look good. As others have said here that even the originals are all different even unto their school of build and maker.
If you reduce the muzzle cap length some the history correct police will not arrest you - it is YOUR rifle and it should satisfy you - if you want a shorter muzzle cap then do it. As for me I would not move the pin location it is fine where it is just adjust the muzzle cap to look good to you ;).
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Look at the petite John Rupp Lehigh...the pin is right there on the edge of the nose cap.
Now this is just off Eric's drawings.
Just in this small example....sights....pins they are all over the place. He does not show pin placement on some of these, leaving that up to the builder. You will see them all over the place on wider examination of originals.
For a honest to goodness hunting rifle it's not a bad idea to have the first barrel pin pretty close to the muzzle. Leaves...vines, stuff like that, could wedge between the barrel and the forestock possibly damaging it if the front pin is too far back. Most of us do not get into stuff that thick....but sometimes we do.
Personally I think it's a waste of time for him to....cut a new dovetail, move the lug, fill the holes re drill, and re pin. For a new builder every pin has the potential to go wrong. His work is neat and looks good. Why risk a mishap?
Another thing.... If it's like most barrel lugs it could have broken through into the ramrod channel. If it did, they'll be that lug hole showing right there when the rammer is removed. He could glue that up but there again...a waste of time in my opinion. Even if it did not break into the ramrod groove, it's a weak spot.
Lastly, this area is thin and delicate. It's going to be even thinner and even more delicate when the nosecap is inlet and riveted. The less holes, and repairs here the better.
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I think I’ll leave it where it is and be a bit more careful with double checking my measurements before I start drilling holes next time... I do feel a bit better knowing there is some varience among originals but I’ll try to stick closer to typical from here on out.. thanks again to everyone who replied.
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I'm building a Kuntz Lehigh, but keyed and estrucheoned rather than pinned. I placed my estrucheon plates at the midway point between the front RR pipe, and the nose cap. Yes, in this one the nose cap is 1 1/2". If you poke around the Lehigh / Bethlehem school some more, you will find there is great variation within it regarding such things.
Because you are building a pinned gun, the pin holes aren't really a decorative feature the way plates are. There are good structural reasons for having it as far forward as you can. So long as it doesn't interfere with your pipe placement, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Antique Gun Room, Inc.- Antique Longarms- Lehigh county long rifle with rare wood sliding patchbox,lots of pics.
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No offence but if that is the only problem you have while building, I will be surprised, I do not see it as a problem, just work around it, it is part of the learning curve. Also, what size pins are you using? The one in the Pic looks large, may just be the Pic.
Tim C.
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No offence but if that is the only problem you have while building, I will be surprised, I do not see it as a problem, just work around it, it is part of the learning curve. Also, what size pins are you using? The one in the Pic looks large, may just be the Pic.
Tim C.
None taken. I’ll be a happy camper if this is the only one I make. 5/64 because I thought 1/16 looked a little too small
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With a problem of this magnitude I'd go jump off a cliff....oh wait, I'd have been dead 37 years ago...... :o
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I think your ok, only cuz I did the same thing. I think I am at 2.25" however it still made me pause. What the heck. Its going to be just fine.
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