AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: 1sogdusm on January 11, 2018, 10:05:05 PM
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I acquired a Ketland marked Fowler and thought I would ask opinions from those with a lot more knowledge in this area. It has a 46” oct. to round barrel with half-stock and the lock is marked W. Ketland. It is missing the cock and the nose cap. Do you think this is early 1800s, any thoughts will b appreciated. It is a wall hanger but I would like to located a cock if possible.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FioALWm%2F1_B6157_E4_366_E_4_FCF_B7_FC_9_C2_F688_BF3_FF.jpg&hash=3cd3d0178d608c9f9343fda782a491fadf1493d7) (http://ibb.co/iwtJHR)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiOyJHR%2FD1625416_AFE5_4_E3_D_B6_B4_BDD356_E9_C55_B.jpg&hash=205db6ef8c8ebbe3de2e830ef6718a6a23dc5ee3) (http://ibb.co/e1cZrm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fcsm5xR%2FD06936_CE_E5_A7_49_E8_9863_BB1_BD19_B7764.jpg&hash=30c58359c0f884e7eef265e5e5dbea51ea534d85) (http://ibb.co/jS1urm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fgvu3j6%2F53_C37773_31_DF_4514_9_EDB_4179374_ABE4_F.jpg&hash=e3cdb4f1a8a4a18284d6a6e80c01aff9a673bd61) (http://ibb.co/m3XZrm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FioQhcR%2FB5030_BC2_A084_4_FFB_9_CEF_8_FCBA996_D3_F6.jpg&hash=32bf46ccc8c0438de35356cc382201a8b014fa4a) (http://ibb.co/huPxBm)
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I believe W. Ketland was the name the firm used in the early 1800's according to a thread on this forum. So yes, 1800-1830ish I believe it says.
Regardless of its current state, very nice gun in my opinion.
A link to the thread about the Ketland firm:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11664.0
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Hi,
Joe Puleo is the man with respect to Ketland guns. He will likely chime in here. William Ketland sold guns under the name W. Ketland from about 1800-1807 I think , so that may give your gun a range of dates. The barrel has what appear to be private Tower proof marks. The Tower provide proofing services to civilian makers until 1810 or so, which gives your fowler another benchmark for the date. It seems to be a nice gun with typical stock styling from the early 19th century. I believe someone put the barrel key shown in one of your photos in from the wrong side. The head should be on the opposite side of the stock from the lock. The oval shaped head suggests it might be a replacement.
dave
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Thanks guys, you make this look easy. I have been looking at this for a while but totally missed the barrel key. The butt plate, trigger guard, and entry thimble are brass, would you tend to believe the missing nose cap was brass as well?
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Thanks guys, you make this look easy. I have been looking at this for a while but totally missed the barrel key. The butt plate, trigger guard, and entry thimble are brass, would you tend to believe the missing nose cap was brass as well?
I would imagine it was actually a full stock fowler, and not ever meant to be half stock. It was probably cut down at some point, but I could be mistaken. If it was cut down, then the nose cap could have been constructed of whatever metal was handiest for the Smith.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhUBKrm%2FIMG_0677.jpg&hash=f353f4f054af17cd97b81b5c93b04b8857fa66c8) (http://ibb.co/kZNQWm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fb55146%2FIMG_0689.jpg&hash=cf745bc1cf0339ab556c5ed259174f2590c4ba56) (http://ibb.co/gMRVxR)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfGtkxR%2FIMG_0670.jpg&hash=d4c3c583a90ab92e67b05f4aa532bce8428eebc4) (http://ibb.co/hoTJHR)
This is a W. Ketland & Co. marked Fowler I owned a few years ago. I posted some pictures of areas you might be interested in seeing for possible rehabilitation.
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It looks a nice gun! Why a wallhanger, Is?
If no evidence of an under -rib, then it was originally full stocked most likely.
On half stock of this time, horn is the most usual for a cap, or just plain wood nicely finished.
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Looks like the forestock may have been damaged, was removed and a nosecap installed. I can't tell for certain, but there appears to be no evidence of ramrod pipes on the barrel. You may be able to see where the soldered lugs were once attached to the barrel and used to pin the forestock to the barrel.
While I've never done it, this looks like it would be a great candidate for restoration - new forestock, pipes, rammer and rebuilding the lock, would return it to its former state. Now whether it should be fired, that is a question for a professional...
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There is an under rim, not clearly visible in the full gun shot. I will take a close up when I get Back home. I would be interested to know if it was full stock at one time. I plan to drag it to the Alabama show tomorrow, may get lucky and find a part or two.
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Here are a few more pics showing the remaining section of under rib. Not sure if this was added at some point or original at time of manf.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhZWYHR%2F307_E9_E33_0068_4_FE4_812_C_56_B3692_E70_DD.jpg&hash=aa6cf8a3b332f7794c49b3cc3a27488a6a1fe883) (http://ibb.co/g2w0xR)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmqRiHR%2F506_E1161_860_D_4363_A1_BB_DC5083_B92_FB5.jpg&hash=e4c24632b76d3c4f82e13d663fb3139e66cf575b) (http://ibb.co/jYG5Wm)
russian image host (http://imgbb.com/)
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
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Mike is correct. I couldn't see the double key until I brought up the picture on the computer. Absolutely Half Stock and it probably had a very handsome Horn piece as the cap.
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
I would say it has always been a half stock with a horn nose cap, but there are a few things that I think is not correct , to me the lock is early than 1800 it is more to the period of 1770-80 with minus the pan stirrup for the steel the barrel is early Victorian with the proof marks also the barrel muzzle front sight should be for the 1800 period a silver inlaid star . The trigger guard which I cannot see if a pine apple finial it is after 1786 , if a acorn prior 1786 ,
Feltwad
If you are restorian the lock image enclosed of a simular one.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ij8QGm/P1010007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fQF5Gm)
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A picture of the trigger guard finial would give some of the more experienced members a better idea of the overall nature. It should be in the shape of an Acorn, if earlier, and a pineapple, if later as mentioned above by Feltwad.
The lock he posted is more closely related to yours than the pictures I posted and should be used if you are trying for restoration.
Best of luck to you at the Alabama show on your parts hunt!
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The lock is correct. It's a post 1800 gun, just look at the architecture. It appears to have an acorn trigger guard finial as well. All of which is correct for these low end export guns.
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Exactly. Just like the "trade" guns (carolina, g, etc.) used way outdated styles in their parts, so did the "trading " guns. I've seen plenty of post 1800 Ketland marked pieces with 1st pattern (Neal) guards.
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Must agree with last 2 posts.
On lower-end guns, older style parts continued, and as Mike says, the stock architecture puts it later as well
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Made between 1801 and 1805... 1801 because that is when WK first separated from the T. Ketland partnership and 1805 because that is when the ordnance stopped doing private proofs.
It's appearance is entirely consistent with those dates. Also, half-stock is entirely appropriate. WK fowlers were available with full or half stocks at no difference in price.
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Exactly. Just like the "trade" guns (carolina, g, etc.) used way outdated styles in their parts, so did the "trading " guns. I've seen plenty of post 1800 Ketland marked pieces with 1st pattern (Neal) guards.
I have one of those with the "first pattern" trigger guard, probably 1790-1800, maybe even war of 1812 era..... Ketland & Co. Looks absolutely identical to the 'Duncan Fowler" in Hamilton's book.
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It isn't even a matter of "trade guns." Practically everything we ASSUME about styles is based on the high end London market. This is no more accurate than dating photographs of ladies by what is "high fashion" in Paris. I seriously doubt that every provincial gunmaker and purchaser slavishly followed the latest London fashion.
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I agree. In truth, even Virginia was not more than 10 years out of London fashion. The further one gets down the food chain on quality guns, the more outdated the parts will be. I think this was magnified with the English gun trade more so than other areas. At least that is what i have found. I think we may be saying the same thing. Trade guns were the bottom of that chain hence used as the most visual example. All being based on what was the latest and greatest fads set forth by the ones who set them.
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Thank you gentlemen for all the information, I am happy to know more about Fowler. If anyone knows where I might find a hammer that would fit the lock please let me know. Many thanks.
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I was thinking that for a "wallhanger", you may be able to acquire a modern-built hammer of the right dimensions and antique it to match. Now, the lock folks in this forum will be able to give the best advice. God bless, and best wishes, Marc
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
Please explain.
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
Please explain.
It has two keys in the forestock which indicates it was and has always been a 1/2 stock. Nose caps on nearly all 1/2 stock English guns are made of black or dark horn. I had one that the horn had a greenish cast to it.
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Enclosed are images of a sxs Ketland & Co flintlock shotgun
Feltwad
Ketland sxs
(https://preview.ibb.co/iRXrrm/100_1378.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d2SPBm)
locks
(https://preview.ibb.co/m1ebP6/100_1383.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g0i346)
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
Please explain.
It has two keys in the forestock which indicates it was and has always been a 1/2 stock. Nose caps on nearly all 1/2 stock English guns are made of black or dark horn. I had one that the horn had a greenish cast to it.
"I see!" said the blind man.
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I figured it had an under rib as the forestock is double keyed. it's always been a 1/2 stock. I also originally had a horn nose cap most likely black.
Please explain.
It has two keys in the forestock which indicates it was and has always been a 1/2 stock. Nose caps on nearly all 1/2 stock English guns are made of black or dark horn. I had one that the horn had a greenish cast to it.
A large majority of nose caps were made from African buffalo horn but also cow horn was used have several fowlers with cow horn nose caps .
'
Feltwad
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I was able to get castings of an original "Ketland & Co." marked lockplate, cock, frizzen, and frizzen spring from Jack Brooks recently to replace a missing lock for a fullstock fowler similar to yours recently. The top jaw and jaw screw were not included. I think Jack would sell you the cock casting by itself. You might have to modify the position of the square tumbler hole to fit your lock.
This is Jack Brooks' website:
http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/riflessundriesforsale.htm
The lock I'm referring to is the sixth lock down on this site.
This is the lock I made using his parts, and large Siler internals:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfxcSz6%2FDSC_0692.jpg&hash=34310534f3291ff919588f519fa8514ab3c5a2ae) (http://ibb.co/dXkrRm)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmmEJ6m%2FDSC_0693.jpg&hash=d6408c874143b2d2542b7cee586dd10924af2c5f) (http://ibb.co/nKqrRm)
Gregg
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Thanks Gregg, that looks fantastic. I’m on it.
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I have a Ketland 20 bore. It has a brass nose cap!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmYUc27%2FIMG_20170815_090252.jpg&hash=77eb85bc85afebf96c978ff066336723bf416cf8) (http://ibb.co/g9PAN7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fc6GDaS%2FIMG_20170815_090223.jpg&hash=ca95a1754087f4fb3a92e949431940e31c4aad1c) (http://ibb.co/cyYFpn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fd7mqN7%2FIMG_20170815_090211.jpg&hash=1bcaa19305cb80156fa8bc26d7cfd3a415808653) (http://ibb.co/fADFpn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiCd1vS%2FIMG_20170815_090159.jpg&hash=828db5c52d626cf4edaa98f235bf5865f7ff0c31) (http://ibb.co/mdEKh7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fi2vgvS%2FIMG_20170815_090117.jpg&hash=088513666d74721f54fab0309580bcc3e0c62beb) (http://ibb.co/kqwApn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjxT1vS%2FIMG_20170815_082641.jpg&hash=48e27070ddccead3e242efb634ab3027f61f4cff) (http://ibb.co/bVwApn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fmo2GUn%2FIMG_20170815_082557.jpg&hash=d3f1d34e5199f2c18dd2dea557df2e1e4efc07a2) (http://ibb.co/b9L39n)
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