AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: jrubin on January 21, 2018, 08:48:46 PM
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Decided to test the amount of spark produced on the TVM rifle today, and noticed that the frizzen doesn't not come to full open upon firing. As i had teken the pictures it seem tightening the flint may have fixed it or it may have been several attempts that loosened something allowed it to operate. Not sure, So I staged an example of the condition below. Is lead better than leather in this regard as a flint holder?
Half cocked
(https://i.imgur.com/GxZ7WgR.jpg)
Flints from TOTW same size as the one installed
(https://i.imgur.com/CKuuVUX.jpg)
Condition seen
(https://i.imgur.com/jmZIF1i.jpg)
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Try oil on the frizzen to spring contact point and some oil at the frizzen screw area
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Sharp flint-bevel down perhaps? Try polishing the foot of the frizzen and the contact point on the frizzen spring.
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A couple of other considerations, how heavy is the frizzen spring, does the frizzen scrape on the side of the barrel, does the frizzen flip all the way open when the lock is out of the gun?
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It could be "rebounding" , opening all the way then coming back.
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Appears to me that the flint is too short. Or the cock isn’t traveling far enough toward the pan.
Flint reinstalled with bevel down May be enough. On some this can be remedied by placing a twig behind the flint. I don’t think that’s work with that particular flint, the hump may be too far forward for the top jaw to hold it. Saw you have a package of flints, sorting may find one that will work.
TC
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I agree with Standing Bear. At half cock the flint should be no more than 1/16" or a little more from the frizzen. You either need to put something behind the flint to move it forward, get a longer size flint and/or turn the flint bevel down. And the frizzen just might be rebounding.
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Flint looks too short. No lead IMO.
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It could be "rebounding" , opening all the way then coming back.
Yes. Put your hand ahead of the frizzen at a point where the top would be if fully open. If it hits your hand , it's a rebound issue.
I have several rifles that will sometimes rebound if dry fired but never do it when actually fired. Must be the recoil. I don't mess with them.
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I can confirm this is not a rebound issue,
How tight should the flint be in the leather? seems this is something that would require constant attention
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I agree with Standing Bear. At half cock the flint should be no more than 1/16" or a little more from the frizzen. You either need to put something behind the flint to move it forward, get a longer size flint and/or turn the flint bevel down. And the frizzen just might be rebounding.
My Kibler 32 caliber flint I am sure is to short. If I allow a small gap between frizzen and flint I have a big gap behind flint.
What size flint does the Ketland flintlock require.
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I can confirm this is not a rebound issue,
How tight should the flint be in the leather? seems this is something that would require constant attention
Fairly tight - once tightened, I rarely need to mess with the screw. Use a piece of leather.
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According to TVM, using the Chamber Siler lock, the flint size is correct at 3/4 x 7/8. Begs the question, how much use can you get out of then when successive knapping makes them shorter and shorter?
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A good lock will knap its own flints very often.
By this I mean you can often go 40 shots or more with no knapping.
I'd turn your flint over, as that kind of makes it longer anyway. Tighten it well and if it works, forget about it. Tight, not just snug.
Good luck!,
R.
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According to TVM, using the Chamber Siler lock, the flint size is correct at 3/4 x 7/8. Begs the question, how much use can you get out of then when successive knapping makes them shorter and shorter?
My larger Siler, mounted in a TVM Early Virginia smooth rifle, has the flints last long enough, even before needing to be knapped, that I loose track of how many shots have been fired, and I totally loose track of how many shots I get per flint before changing flints. I do at somw point need to move the flint forward in the jaws as the lock does perform best when the flint edge is so close to the frizzen at half cock that use of a leather frizzen stall leaves the pan open a hair. I only use leather as a pad, but slightly thicker than what the o.p. shows, but it is also slightly spongy so it all compresses together.
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The flint does not have to be against the screw. The more important aspect is where it strikes the frizzen and I can say it should be well up from where the photo shows. Also cut a few "teeth" in the jaw(s) to hold the leather and flint better.
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Rebounding??
I sat in on a lock tuning session by Keith Casteele this year at Dixon's.
I remember him saying that when that happens it is most often actually the frizzen rebounding, not failing to open.
Sorry but I don't recall the remedy?
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Rebounding??
I sat in on a lock tuning session by Keith Casteele this year at Dixon's.
I remember him saying that when that happens it is most often actually the frizzen rebounding, not failing to open.
Sorry but I don't recall the remedy?
One remedy is to extend the leather to the upper edge of the flint and if
there is a rebound that can break the flint it will be stopped.
Bob Roller
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Judging from the picture, I think the problem is that the scrape didn't finish instead of a rebound. A rebounding frizzen comes to rest on top of the flint. The picture shows the flint a distance above the bottom edge of the frizzen. The frizzen hasn't cammed over yet. This information my just my gut. Advice like this and 50 cents won't quite buy you a coke anymore.
Regards,
Pletch
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Wouldn't rebounding happen if the frizzen spring was too weak? How about too stiff?
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Spring problem - feather or main - feather too strong & improperly timed --- or main much too weak
Frizzen too soft with flint digging in and stopping. If this is the case, it is unlikely to be producing any sparks - at least, no white hot ones
We have not seen a picture of the cock at full throw, just with the flint resting on or dug into the frizzen's face (which is unlikely to be full throw).
Cock at full throw should have the flint, even a short one, closer to the pan so that it has scraped the frizzen full length. It is
obvious the flint is in the shady area of too short, but the cock's top jaw has not hit the frizzen, thus the lock should have worked.
If the flint is too short to work at all, the top jaw - or screw would have struck the frizzen's face.
If this last picture is the cock at full through, the lock needs a new, properly made tumbler.
In that lock, my opinion is the flint is too short to be shot bevel up causing it to strike the frizzen too far down it's face. In this lock, the flint should have been mounted bevel down, so it scrapes more of the frizzen's face.
Lets see a picture of the cock at full throw.
A rebounding frizzen should be striking the flint just back from the top front edge. The fix for that is different timing on the
frizzen's throw and rebound, along with possibly a stiffer feather spring.
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Yes, use leather to hold the flint and keep it snug. As flints in my rifle wear and shorten, I move them forward in the cock and put something behind them to keep them from being pushed back. I remember one flint that finally got so short the jaws couldn't grip it. that's one flint I know had over 100 shots; I quit counting after 100.
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Spring problem - feather or main - feather too strong & improperly timed --- or main much too weak
Frizzen too soft with flint digging in and stopping. If this is the case, it is unlikely to be producing any sparks - at least, no white hot ones
We have not seen a picture of the cock at full throw, just with the flint resting on or dug into the frizzen's face (which is unlikely to be full throw).
Cock at full throw should have the flint, even a short one, closer to the pan so that it has scraped the frizzen full length. It is
obvious the flint is in the shady area of too short, but the cock's top jaw has not hit the frizzen, thus the lock should have worked.
If the flint is too short to work at all, the top jaw - or screw would have struck the frizzen's face.
If this last picture is the cock at full through, the lock needs a new, properly made tumbler.
In that lock, my opinion is the flint is too short to be shot bevel up causing it to strike the frizzen too far down it's face. In this lock, the flint should have been mounted bevel down, so it scrapes more of the frizzen's face.
Lets see a picture of the cock at full throw.
A rebounding frizzen should be striking the flint just back from the top front edge. The fix for that is different timing on the
frizzen's throw and rebound, along with possibly a stiffer feather spring.
I think I found the problem.......
The loose flint was deflecting instead of knocking open the frizzen. Tightening solved the problem. Im providing the picture anyway as requested an hope to have a movie to you shortly.
(https://i.imgur.com/Gp0wtT8.jpg)
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your frizzen is also or has been scraping the barrel.
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so it would appear, ill give a closer inspection in light of that
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Good eye, Mark.
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I would still flip the flint over bevel down.... it’ll throw more sparks due to the longer strike along the frizzen face.
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I would still flip the flint over bevel down.... it’ll throw more sparks due to the longer strike along the frizzen face.
Ditto - I like my flint to sweep the entire face of the frizzen, or as much as possible.
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Definitely, Smo, Daryl.
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Having tightened the screw to fix the problem Ive provided the video and slow motion of the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jffEKLljRwc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jffEKLljRwc)
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Sparks good now. What a difference in looking at it in slow motion.
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According to TVM, using the Chamber Siler lock, the flint size is correct at 3/4 x 7/8.
Be aware that those flint sizes are for the NEWER Siler LH lock, as the recommended flint size for the OLDER Siler LH lock is 3/4” square one, so shorter.
FWIW I recently purchased a new-to-me older LH custom flint rifle and tried to get her to fire using the longer flint and I had similar issues, even though the flint edge is off the frizzen at half cock. I switched to the shorter flint - that looks TOO short - and installed it bevel down ... and the reliability is 100%!
The flint edge is a good 1/8” off the frizzen face at half cock ... which proves that flintlocks are like women ... ya gotta find out what THEY like! It is quite possible that TVM had an new-old-stock LH Siler on hand ...
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Your getting good sparks in the pan it appears....
(https://image.ibb.co/jvkD66/52_D3_BB94_E227_487_B_A403_BC81_FF747_C8_A.png)
Now try it with the flint flipped over and see what that looks like.
It should give you a longer frizzen strike .
The flint still looks a little short and stubby. Could be just the photo angle.
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Smo,
Your picture not showing but agree, turn flint over and see.
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I’m seeing the picture , the edge of the flint appears rounded too me .
But could just be the photo angle.
But I would flip it and try it just for sheets and jiggles .....
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Smo, you can see the picture, but we can't. All I see is the image not found display.
Posting pictures can be quite frustrating.
The Siler locks were noted as having a longer throw. There have been changes as new Siler locks from Chambers are marketed as deluxe Siler locks. Both versions are good.
Use the thicker leather wrap. Some lock manufacturers won't honor the lock warranty if lead is used as the wrap. Lead will get battered and loosen in the lock requiring frequent retightening of the lock jaws.
Even a good lock can use a little bit of tuning when new to polish up the parts that are in contact. Ease the side of the frizzen where it is rubbing against the barrel. Look for rubs on the inside of the lock plate. Afiter a hundred or so shots, the lock will function much better.
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To help determine if the frizzen opens completely put a little oil on what I call the frizzen foot and trip the lock and observe if the oily foot left a spot on the frizzen spring, If it did it is rebounding.