AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: rich pierce on February 04, 2018, 09:03:14 PM
-
On another forum there’s a guy who proposes the following load to improve shotgun patterns in a cylinder bore:
1 volume of FFG
Card wad
1 volume shot
Cushion wad soaked in olive oil.
I tried it a little yesterday in 2, 20ga guns. I used 1 and 1/8 oz of #5 shot by volume and equal powder.
In my cylinder bore GM 32” octagonal barrel, not much difference in pellet count.
In my original percussion double, the right barrel seems to be cylinder bore. I doubled the pellet count in a 7” circle using the weird load. I only had a few sheets of 30” paper and had switched to some pistol targets. All shots were at 25 yards. Will do more testing prepping for spring turkey.
Anyone else hear of such a load or have favorite pattern tightening loads for cylinder bores?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcUAdyx%2F87_BDEE84_D5_BC_480_A_820_E_7125_AE877_D45.jpg&hash=1d51987fa48dd5dff8eb664044b3d63b1c29f15e) (http://ibb.co/kxgU5c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmZ45dx%2F21_E84971_4_BA1_49_D7_8_BE2_C0_C80_B475_A37.jpg&hash=863a0c1ec85ad1e89cdbd3c518d52af5be723514) (http://ibb.co/k1TWJx)
-
I'll have to try this. I've tried about everything else in an original 16 gauge double, and can't get it to pattern worth a darn.
-
I use it in my Beretta 12ga perc. only difference is I use cut wool scraps,(just because I have a bunch of scrap) instead of a cushion wad 4-5 pieces makes it about 3/8"thick, and a thin overshot card before the wool wad.
I never actually counted out the hits on paper, looked like enough to do the job and 2 turkey say it works, 22 and 27 yards paced off
-
Rich,
The version of the load the Gentleman posted on the other Forum last week was 65grn 2fg, topped by 1 Nitro Card, 110 grns volume measure (1 1/2 ozs) of #6 shot, with a thin overshot card on top of the shot , capped off with 1/2" fiber wad soaked in Olive Oil.
I still have a lot more testing to do , but it did improve the pattern from my 16 gauge open cylinder bore tremendously .
In his original load he used a thin overshot card instead of the Nitro Card I do believe.....
My gun does shoot low, so I've got to correct that issue as well.
These targets were both shot at 25 yards. 8.5 X 11 paper.
(https://image.ibb.co/nAoYZR/IMG_0419.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/gZAfER/IMG_0418.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/eEVu66/IMG_0404.jpg)
-
I've heard of this guy and his load. Highly recommended. ;)
-
Thanks Sky, I was hoping you would chime in. lol
-
Thanks for clarifying the load. I’ll try upping the shot and see if that helps the pattern while passing the tin can test.
-
Rich,
I'm still all scarred up from the catfights we had over on the other forum! LOL!
Why don't we ask "WHY" it works and beat ourselves half dead again?. (I say this All in fun!)
Old saying from home, and variations on it maybe everywhere; "Little powder much lead, shoots far kills dead".
Been cold up here, but Will try it and my regular charges when weather warms up a bit.
-
Things got a little ridiculous with "why it works," over there. I think there is a thin over shot card or something between the shot and the soaked cushion wad, to keep the shot from pressing into the wet wad material.
But Skychief can/Should, clarify. I seem to recall also that it improved patterns in cylinder bore guns when loaded the way his final description was stated, anything changed or omitted didn't improve patterns, and it didn't seem to work in choked bore guns.
-
Yes.
From reports of others, the load may or may not make denser patterns out of choked bores.
Used with cylinder bores, most report results like mine, repeatable denser patterns, mostly significantly denser.
The load is:
Powder
Hard or nitro card
Shot
Thin card
Full cushion wad (COMPLETELY saturated with olive oil. Other oils can work as well)
The load evolved into the above through many trials.
It's best suited in my opinion for stationary game shooting (squirrel, turkey, etc), game with smaller vitals (turkey heads/necks, grey squirrel, etc), and game that may present opportunities outside of the range of conventional loadings.
I suppose it would make a fine trap load too, but, I'm not a trap shooter, so can't say for sure.
I've been using it with total satisfaction for a few years now. My muzzleloading friends here in Indiana are all sticking with it after patterning their fowlers and hunting with it.
The only time I find myself using a conventional load is in tight thickets rabbit hunting behind the dogs where any opportunities are really close.
Hopefully the load will help anybody here looking for tighter/denser patterns.
Best regards, Skychief
-
Skychief, your load, minus the cushion wad, is the load advocated by V. M. Starr back in the 50s/60s. In my guns I use this load except place 1/2 a lubricated cushion wad over the nitro card under the shot. I get very even patterns with no holes.
-
I used powder, 2 or 3 thin overshot cards, then shot, then overshot thin card. This load powdered clay birds. I used it as I saw it noted here - about 4 or 5 years ago.
The gun I used was a heavy, non-choked 11 bore H-Whal ball and shot gun.(say this due to the 9 pound weight and 1 1/4" breech.)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FfQhCdx%2FHWHALLBalland_Shot_Gun.jpg&hash=fd50a089462cb3f147771a8093ae6775026894a1) (http://ibb.co/i7jQyx)
how do you upload a photo (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FhotPrH%2FHWHALLBreech_Top.jpg&hash=584a2deee60cec5269dce1d20f09397c8135cf68) (http://ibb.co/jEVhdx)
-
Skychief, your load, minus the cushion wad, is the load advocated by V. M. Starr back in the 50s/60s. In my guns I use this load except place 1/2 a lubricated cushion wad over the nitro card under the shot. I get very even patterns with no holes.
We mostly all.know this. It's mostly the soaked, heavy, lubed, cushion wad,,,,, and the crucial but unorthodox placement thereof,,, which makes this loading unique and effective in tightening patterns.
-
If I recall correctly, Mr Starr was shooting choked guns. In any case I've tried "his" load versus "my" load and there was no comparison from my cylinder bored guns.
Best regards, Skychief
-
Interesting that the heavy lubed wad 'falling' back through the pattern does not effect it. We will have to experiment with that when warmer weather comes our way.
Thanks for the info.
-
Sure Daryl. Good luck!
Best regards, Skychief
-
I have the same thoughts. Can't help but wonder where it goes (the tick oiled wad). Would be neat to somehow see in slow motion. I guess it makes sense that it would hold the shot together up the barrel better than a thin card. I've never shot shot from a front stuffer (soon though) so I'm gleaning all the tips and tricks I can 8). Cool stuff, thanks for sharing.
-
My thoughts very briefly and only the once in this thread, LOL! (Still bandaged up from the "other" discussion; :-))
Theory;
I think the heavy wad must stay up with the shot longer, and by the time the shot 'passes" it, the shot is dispersed, so very little of it is interfered with by the wad.
This is Theory only!!
I do want to try this loading out as well, and ASAP.
What I do not quite understand, is that it appears plenty of folks get lousy patterns form their guns, and at very close range too. A decently cylinder bored and Regulated barrel should be capable of good consistent results out to 40 yards, with normal wadding.
There, all done! :-)
All the best,
Richard.
-
Richard
You hit it exactly, what is "normal wadding"?, when I started with a muzzleloader shotgun, I got a different "normal" load from everyone I asked.
To this day I don't know what would be considered "normal wadding", I know my first few range trips almost made me give up on the gun.
-
CT,
Peter Hawker (The Father of Gameshooting" ) in his book "Instructions to young sportsmen..." says that some old gunners still used paper as wadding, A lot used "Pasteboard, which I gather is likely as thick as a thin nitro card wad, and some used felt wads. also cork.
He advised the latter types to be in thickness, about 1/3 the diameter of the bore, so Not too thick. (No thick cushion wads over the powder)
Also a thin wad over the shot, he also said a wad cutter that cut a groove down one side, as it aided seating by reducing air pressure. (Top wad only)
Before his time, felt from an old saddle was popular, as was hat, (felt again) and hanging moss from trees, plus the ivy leaves for reducing fire risk at dry times.
Most anything will make a good wad, but not wool!
The thin felt wads the Colonel recommended would have to be pretty hard dense felt, not soft gutless stuff.
Best,
R,
PS, He also recommended loads a good bit heavier than we use today.
-
Sure Daryl. Good luck!
Best regards, Skychief
Taylor's 20 and the Manton 15 bore, both have no chokes.
-
My gun does shoot low, so I've got to correct that issue as well.
Try changing where you glue your cheek to the stock- The gun shoots low with your face in a specific place.
-
http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/feltwadsformuzzleloadingshotguns
http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/makingmuzzleloadingshotcartridges
http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/skeetandmuzzleloadingshotcartridges
Three pages that might be of use. Talks about wads and making shot cartridges.
-
My gun does shoot low, so I've got to correct that issue as well.
Try changing where you glue your cheek to the stock- The gun shoots low with your face in a specific place.
I’m shooting looking straight down the top of the barrel using the tang screw as a rear sight ,
I can’t get any lower on the gun .
But still not ready to bend it just yet.....
Like Pukka my hide is still sore from the earlier thrashing . LOL
So all I’m saying is.. Just how much could one , 1/2” wad
disrupt a 30+ inch shot pattern at 25 yards?
-
You have to get higher on the gun and see more of the barrel if you are shooting low.
-
Smo,
Do as Rich says above.
You don't Aim a shotgun, you just look over the top of the barrel at the target. Keep your head up. If you see half the barrel all well and good.
This'll bring up your poi no end. Aiming will mess up spontaneous shooting.
Try this;
point at summat with your index finger of your left hand; (If you shoot right handed) New, look along your finger. Is it pointing at what you were looking at?
Yes, unless your boss-eyed, your finger will be pointing straight at it.
Now, turn yur left hand palm up and try pointing. Still works doesn't it?
That's Natural hand-eye co-ordination.
Lastly; Pick up your shotgun. point with your index finger but now holding the fore-end. Your gun will be pointing where your finger's pointing, and that is at the target . Forget about looking at the gun barrel at all. In fact , if you Notice the barrels in flying shooting. you'll likely miss.
Don't aim just be spontaneous and you'll connect all right.
Try it and see.
-
You have to get higher on the gun and see more of the barrel if you are shooting low.
Rich,
The gun shoots 6” low and 3” left with a roundball.
I’m sighting using the tang screw as a windage guide, leveling the high point of the tang (just ahead of the screw)with the bottom left corner of the base of the front sight now.
I’m trying to get the center mass of the off the point of aim shot pattern too center over the target.
If I see anymore barrel , it covers the target.
-
Som,
Do as Rich says above.
You don't Aim a shotgun, you just look over the top of the barrel at the target. Keep your head up. If you see half the barrel all well and good.
This'll bring up your poi no end. Aiming will mess up spontaneous shooting.
Try this;
point at summat with your index finger of your left hand; (If you shoot right handed) New, look along your finger. Is it pointing at what you were looking at?
Yes, unless your boss-eyed, your finger will be pointing straight at it.
Now, turn yur left hand palm up and try pointing. Still works doesn't it?
That's Natural hand-eye co-ordination.
Lastly; Pick up your shotgun. point with your index finger but now holding the fore-end. Your gun will be pointing where your finger's pointing, and that is at the target . Forget about looking at the gun barrel at all. In fact , if you Notice the barrels in flying shooting. you'll likely miss.
Don't aim just be spontaneous and you'll connect all right.
Try it and see.
Good advice , but the gun don’t shoot Roundball where you’re pointing so I assumed shot would follow a similar path...
More testing too come Friday.
-
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.
Are there other options yet to try?
I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.
-
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.
Are there other options yet to try?
I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.
There is a topic on the "other" forum, where discussion of this alternate loading method started, entitled "muzzle filing worked," the o.p. reported that his smoothbore had been shoot g low and that stoning or file about .003 from the bottom edge of the muzzle raised his point of impact about 3 to 4 inches. I had heard of this method of regulating a shotgun barrels point of impact before, but of course it started a big "discussion.," especially with barrel bending advocates. I figure one can resquare the muzzle easier than trying to bend it back toward the starting point if one adjusts too far.
-
What I was told by Guys who have successfully bent barrels over the years is...
They always bend the barrel more than is required due to flex of the steel.
If you go too far.... simply ease it back the other way.
These Guys do it by feel in a tree fork. Most have been shooting m/l longer than many of us have been alive.
I’ve read about filing the muzzle as well, I’m not sure how much you gain doing this.... would it move a shot pattern as much as a foot? IDK....
Would it move the POI with a Roundball? IDK...
But I would be willing too give it a try, before bending the barrel.
It would be easy to re- square the end of the barrel if needed.
-
Smo,
I was presuming you were using shot, not ball.
Many old Long barrels were bent up towards the muzzle. Had to do that with my 44" Gets 16 bore.
You just sort of spring it, by feel.
-
That’s what they say.... Spring it as you say, past the required amount then slowly bring it back the other direction until it hits the point of aim.
They claim as you gently increase the strength of your pull, you can feel the barrel as it starts too move.
Some of the Guys I’ve talked to are National Championship record holders or have been at some point,some of whom have long standing records still on the books.
Like I said in a previous post, if a gun don’t shoot round ball’s too the point of aim, I assume shot would follow a similar path. I’m my case low and left.
-
Smo,
I don't bend the barrel further than it needs , just spring it gently and watch it flex, then look along it to see if there is a little set. If it still looks straight, spring it gently, but a bit more. It's all by feel.
The most scary is straightening old twist barrels. They come with all kinds of dog-legs in them at times.
-
You have to get higher on the gun and see more of the barrel if you are shooting low.
Rich,
The gun shoots 6” low and 3” left with a roundball.
I’m sighting using the tang screw as a windage guide, leveling the high point of the tang (just ahead of the screw)with the bottom left corner of the base of the front sight now.
I’m trying to get the center mass of the off the point of aim shot pattern too center over the target.
If I see anymore barrel , it covers the target.
The front sight should remain "on target" when aiming.
What you do in case your shots are going low, is raise your head a bit while keeping the front sight on target,.... similar to raising a rear sight to gain elevation. In other words, your "eye" actually becomes the rear sight when shooting a smoothbore that only has a front sight. :)
The same principle works for lateral adjustment if you need to move the ball's POI "right or left" a bit (just like drifting a rear sight on a rifle to make adjustments).
All this takes practice and a subconscious awareness of the pressure your cheek is putting on the gun's stock.
I hope that makes sense.
Try it, and if you can't make it work, then think of bending the barrel or filing the muzzle.
-
Thanks RB,
That’s what I think I’ve been doing, compensating for shooting left by aiming off the left side of the front sight vs the center. Pulling my aim point down to the bottom / base of where the front sight meets the barrel to give the barrel more elevation vs using the tip of the front sight.
With a Roundball I can aim slightly above (2 to 3” ) the 2,o'clock position of a 6” target at 25 yards to hit the center of the target off a bag rest.
I really want too be able to aim at what I’m shooting at vs an imaginary point completely off the target I’m intending to shoot. Kentucky Windage.....arrrrrg.
I can understand sighting using KW at a long distance , but at 25 yards I would think one shouldn’t have to use it. There’s got to be a better way....
I attribute it to shooting a bow instinctively , using the hump of the tang just in front of the tang screw too align the base of the front sight with the target.
In my peripheral vision I center the slot in the tang screw with the lower left corner of the front sight where it attaches to the barrel.
I plan on using the gun for both hunting and match shooting.
Am I expecting too much from the gun?
Thanks
-
Thanks RB,
That’s what I think I’ve been doing, compensating for shooting left by aiming off the left side of the front sight vs the center. Pulling my aim point down to the bottom / base of where the front sight meets the barrel to give the barrel more elevation vs using the tip of the front sight.
With a Roundball I can aim slightly above (2 to 3” ) the 2,o'clock position of a 6” target at 25 yards to hit the center of the target off a bag rest.
I really want too be able to aim at what I’m shooting at vs an imaginary point completely off the target I’m intending to shoot. Kentucky Windage.....arrrrrg.
I can understand sighting using KW at a long distance , but at 25 yards I would think one shouldn’t have to use it. There’s got to be a better way....
I attribute it to shooting a bow instinctively , using the hump of the tang just in front of the tang screw too align the base of the front sight with the target.
In my peripheral vision I center the slot in the tang screw with the lower left corner of the front sight where it attaches to the barrel.
I plan on using the gun for both hunting and match shooting.
Am I expecting too much from the gun?
Thanks
No, you're not expecting too much (IMHO),.... if you've worked up an accurate load for your smoothie.
You can use almost any "sight picture" to find the load your gun likes,.... AS LONG as you use the same exact sight picture EACH and EVERY time you fire a shot.
Once you've found the load your smoothie is most accurate with,... THEN start concentratin' on where your eye and cheek need to be to move your "groups" on target.
In order to do this you must concentrate on keeping the tip of your front sight ON the target,... ALL other "adjustments" are a combination of "cheek pressure and eye".
I'm sure you've heard the saying "Beware of the man who has only one gun, because he probably shoots it very well".
IMHO,... that "saying" is especially true for a man who shoots a smooth bore.
Last summer, at the rendezvous south of the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, Nebraska, I watched a guy win the candle-shoot by snuffing the candle's flame 4 consecutive times.
He out shot all the other competitors using rifles with rear sights.
After the shoot, he and I had a long chat around my campfire, as he told me all he has shot since 1998 is his CenterMark Tulle Fusil De Chasse. :o
We talked at length about what works best for him, and since then I've concentrated on what he told me and have worked to apply what he told me to my smoothbore shooting, and it HAS made an improvement. :)
He about floored me, when he also said,.... "I can shoot it (the Tulle) equally well with either hand",... (now THAT is something I'll never learn to do with a smoothbore, at my age :'()
-
FWIW Smo,
If the post above doesn't help as it should, could you make a rear sight?
I did one for an antique rifle that shows no sign of ever having one. I made the sight to just sit on top of the barrel, and with a piece of leather with a split in it, (for the sight to peep up through) I laced it down snug over the fore-end.
This way you don't do anything permanent to the gun, but it might help for ball shooting.
Just a a thought.
-
Richard
You hit it exactly, what is "normal wadding"?, when I started with a muzzleloader shotgun, I got a different "normal" load from everyone I asked.
To this day I don't know what would be considered "normal wadding", I know my first few range trips almost made me give up on the gun.
I think when people say normal 'shotgun' wadding, the mean just that - normal wadding - the way shotgun "shells" were NORMALLY loaded since that era of enlightenment(breech loaders), but prior to plastic wads.
Normally consisting of:
1/8" to 1/4" over powder hard card wad -
cushion wad9s0 of various heights from 3/8" and thicker - of compressed horse hair if you are Russian or today mostly donaconna
thin overshot card - again, normal. The normal crimp was a rolled crimp. Normal for Frnech shotshells was a clear overshot card, so you could see the shot size.
All of these are normal shotshell wadding. Today, there are a miriad of differently shaped and sized plastic wads, so they are also now quite 'normal'
The standard cards, fibers, etc are what is usually considered normal.
For the filler, cushion wad, there was a Swedish cup-wad which improved patters somewhat in cylinder bores, but more so in choked bores. Other loaders used 2 cushion wads, one with
a hole in the middle to hold extra shot, hidden but only known by the loader. These were used mostly for cheating at patterning contests in England as the hollowed out wad held 'extra shot' which struck close to the centre of the page, thus seemingly to increase the shot count. Some of these sort of ideas might help today for increasing shot in the killing pattern, which is why some experiment with post-it note pad papers and coin wrappers. Those might just be the trick for getting usable long range patterns, just like the Green wrapped Ely ctgs.
Out to 40 or 50 yards or so, they shot like a slug, meant for shooting deer and wolves, only letting the shot fly freely, after that. There were even ctgs. of shot for shooting out to 100yards in the larger bores.
There is no normal wadding for muzzleloaders. People NORMALLY use whatever they can invent or imagine, from toilet paper to old rages to wasp nest
-
FWIW Smo,
If the post above doesn't help as it should, could you make a rear sight?
I did one for an antique rifle that shows no sign of ever having one. I made the sight to just sit on top of the barrel, and with a piece of leather with a split in it, (for the sight to peep up through) I laced it down snug over the fore-end.
This way you don't do anything permanent to the gun, but it might help for ball shooting.
Just a a thought.
..... one could even use rawhide to simulate a "repair" (if need be). :)
-
Thanks Guys
-
"The front sight should remain "on target" when aiming.
What you do in case your shots are going low, is raise your head a bit while keeping the front sight on target,.... similar to raising a rear sight to gain elevation. In other words, your "eye" actually becomes the rear sight when shooting a smoothbore that only has a front sight. :)
The same principle works for lateral adjustment if you need to move the ball's POI "right or left" a bit (just like drifting a rear sight on a rifle to make adjustments).
All this takes practice and a subconscious awareness of the pressure your cheek is putting on the gun's stock.
I hope that makes sense.
Try it, and if you can't make it work, then think of bending the barrel or filing the muzzle."
then
"No, you're not expecting too much (IMHO),.... if you've worked up an accurate load for your smoothie.
You can use almost any "sight picture" to find the load your gun likes,.... AS LONG as you use the same exact sight picture EACH and EVERY time you fire a shot.
Once you've found the load your smoothie is most accurate with,... THEN start concentratin' on where your eye and cheek need to be to move your "groups" on target.
In order to do this you must concentrate on keeping the tip of your front sight ON the target,... ALL other "adjustments" are a combination of "cheek pressure and eye".
I'm sure you've heard the saying "Beware of the man who has only one gun, because he probably shoots it very well".
IMHO,... that "saying" is especially true for a man who shoots a smooth bore.
Last summer, at the rendezvous south of the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, Nebraska, I watched a guy win the candle-shoot by snuffing the candle's flame 4 consecutive times.
He out shot all the other competitors using rifles with rear sights.
After the shoot, he and I had a long chat around my campfire, as he told me all he has shot since 1998 is his CenterMark Tulle Fusil De Chasse. :o
We talked at length about what works best for him, and since then I've concentrated on what he told me and have worked to apply what he told me to my smoothbore shooting, and it HAS made an improvement. :)
He about floored me, when he also said,.... "I can shoot it (the Tulle) equally well with either hand",... (now THAT is something I'll never learn to do with a smoothbore, at my age :'() "
This is gold, as well as his earlier post included at the start of the above quote"!
-
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.
Are there other options yet to try?
I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.
There is a topic on the "other" forum, where discussion of this alternate loading method started, entitled "muzzle filing worked," the o.p. reported that his smoothbore had been shoot g low and that stoning or file about .003 from the bottom edge of the muzzle raised his point of impact about 3 to 4 inches. I had heard of this method of regulating a shotgun barrels point of impact before, but of course it started a big "discussion.," especially with barrel bending advocates. I figure one can resquare the muzzle easier than trying to bend it back toward the starting point if one adjusts too far.
Thanks for the info.
-
Daryl,
In the above when talking about Normal wadding for a M-loader, I was meaning Traditional normal wadding. Most stuff available for modern guns is no good in a muzzle-loading gun.
Very sorry for not clarifying.
I think that the reason we sometimes get lousy patterns with these old guns is because we often feed them the wrong diet.
Feed them right and we should be able to duplicate the good long range shooting they did in their hay-day.
Best regards,
Richard.
-
Pukka, normal or conventional load construction , to me, means:
Powder
Hard card
Cushion wad
Shot
Thin card
I think most would agree.
Best regards, Skychief
-
Yes, Normal These Days Skychief, But Not normal in the early 1800s.....and That is what I am talking about.
I firmly believe that this is the reason for our Not being able to replicate their shooting standards with our modern notions of how a load should be built.
My 'Normal " loads are as near as poss. to the way it was recommended to us by the old sages of the time, and found in my guns, (all but one an original admittedly ) that their way Was better than "Our" way.
I wonder at times why we think we know better and ignore the old blokes who grew up using guns of this type?
Somewhere in this discussion on here or the other forum, I wrote down Col. Peter Hawker's recommendations on charging the gun. This was from his book, "Instructions to Young Sportsmen..." The first edition going to print in 1816 I believe, and my copy being a reproduction of the 7th printing , of 1833.
If we choose to ignore his methods, which he went to great pains to bring them to our attention, then be it on our own heads.
So , My friend, This has Nothing to do with Your findings, or meant as a negative towards them, but merely pointing out what I mean by Normal loads. :-)
All the best Skychief,
Richard.
-
I see Richard. I misunderstood thinking you were asking for what most consider a "normal" modern load chain.
All the best to you friend.
Best regards, Skychief.
-
Skychief,
My guns sitting by the door, waiting for me to take it out and try Your loads! Snow forecast from now till weekend, and Maybe 2 feet of it or more.
Been cold , minus 25 C to -35 C, so hardly Play out weather....
I will keep you posted :-)
All the best,
R.
-
My little 1/2-stocked kinda English styled pelter, has a slight choke at the muzzle. It actually prefers 'almost modern' normal shot-load wadding system - hard card, fiber cushion, then thin card, then 1oz #7 1/2's, then thin overshot card.
With 68gr. 2F to 75gr. 2f, this loads powders clay birds. It patterns a strong modified with this loading.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkEKf5c%2FAHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg&hash=5be762ac38c1e323a947bcf37ac66e1e7a9acf53) (http://ibb.co/m8KPWH)
upload pictures to web (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk7kyrH%2FAHunkeler20bore015_zps38de83d6.jpg&hash=658d189854a5ce2bd3df1bc0a897d0bc61a5edc4) (http://ibb.co/mkLnkc)
image of a safe (http://imgbb.com/)
-
Daryl, Nice looking gun!
Maybe the modern loading complements the modern boring.
Will try Mr. Skychiefs loads in my old (1811 or 1812) flint double, and a few others, plus my homemade "Griffin" W a 44" tube.
-
I suspect we should/will try those loads with the oiled wad over the shot in Taylor's non choked guns this spring.
I am sure the choke at the end of the tube is the reason my 20 bore shoots such wonderful patterns.
-
I fired a few more Skychief loads out of my 16 gauge today.
It looks like for my gun about 22 to 23 yards is all i'm going to get out of it.
At 25 the pattern opens up too much ... it pretty much covered a 2' x 2' paper with very few killing hits.
(https://image.ibb.co/mkTorH/IMG_0477.jpg)
20 yard target
(https://image.ibb.co/dzWN1H/IMG_0476.jpg)
-
I'm sure it can do better Smo.
Try an old load;
Start light. It keeps pressure down.
same 65 grains of powder, maybe 2 F, no smaller.
a thin card wad, and a wool felt wad, no more than 1/3 diameter of the bore. (About .22 thick....Slice one down if needs be) 1 1/4 ounces of shot.
Top wad of what you like. Dry grass works, a small roll of newspaper, a thin card wad. really you should do a few and try them all. Paper that oranges come wrapped in is good as it's pretty tender stuff.
Maybe try a close shot of maybe 10 or 15 yards, to make sure you're hitting with the centre of your pattern.
Pleas try it. It Might just work in your gun.
All best,
Richard.
-
Yeah - kind of went to pot in that extra 15'. As Richard noted, use a large enough piece of paper to see where the centre of the pattern is.
There seems an inordinate amount of shot on the left side of the page. Perhaps that is the centre of your pattern? To properly pattern
shotguns, usually takes a lot of shots -per individual load. Marking the pellet hits with a felt pen really helps see them better. A pointed felt
pen merely poked into the hole is wonderful for this, rather than a slash as some writers do.
-
Here’s the same two targets on a 2’ x2’ paper...
(https://image.ibb.co/jnDwTx/IMG_0475.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/b3W8rH/IMG_0473.jpg)
-
The left bias in the group is quite evident in these larger pictures.
1/. Either the eye was on the left side of centre at the breech - or -
2/. The gun shoots to the left.
The remedy is either bending the barrel which will work and likely be permanent, but some form of visual line or reference for your eye alignment might be an alternative route.
Do patched round balls have this same left bias?
Increasing or decreasing powder or shot charge may also change impact centres.
-
Yep, everything is low and left.
I’m working on the eye alignment now.
There’s been some great tips about temp. rear sights and such.
We’re getting there ... slowly but surely.
I’m just trying every alternative out there before bending.
-
Smo,
Try it this way,
Keep your head upright and put gun to your shoulder look over the barrel.
If you can see a lot of barrel and not just the tang and front sight , all the better.
Holding it like this, is your eye over the centre of the breech? I fit is, you should be OK for right & left unless barrel is already bent.
Put your left thumb over the top of the barrel. Do this where your forward hand normally holds the gun.
Can you still see the front bead? If so, Good! This should mean that holding the gun in this fashion, you are now giving it some extra elevation.
What I think was happening is that if you are dropping your head to look 'down the sights" so to speak, you were running into the comb, and it wasn't allowing your head to get over to the centre of the barrel quite.
And, with dropping your head, you were "lowering the back sight ". (shooting low) If you keep head upright, and just look Over the barrel rather than Along it, you Will shoot higher.
Many good shotguns come up in this fashion, so that you see the full length of the barrels, not just breech and front sight. In fact All the shotguns I can shoot with, if I look at the barrels at all, they are always in full view all the way from breech to muzzle.
One other thing, shoot with both eyes open!
Sorry, this must sound like you're back at school. It's not meant that way, but rifles and shotguns are very different. See if it helps.
-
I understand what you Guys are saying, I grew up hunting quail with a bolt action shotgun that was missing the front bead .
So pointing a shotgun comes natural for me. But I’m all ears and willing to try different approaches.
I’ve talked with several people who do shoot smoothbores as if they were a rifle with great success.
Some have even filed a groove the the tang to be used as a rear sight.
If I sight down the barrel , using the tang screw as a centering point for my eye the gun shoots low and left.
Raising my head so to speak , I still see the tang screw in my peripheral vision this should keep my eye centered while maintaining a solid anchor point on my cheek.
I do see more barrel doing this , but still have to shoot off the bottom left hand corner of the front sight to bring the pattern or ball on target.
By doing this it’s like shooting a bow instinctively , which I did for several years so I understand that principle as well.
What I’m trying to do is get the gun where it “CAN “ be sighted like a rifle.
Not necessarily as much for hunting, but more for novelty and woods walk shooting.
Even for hunting , I want to be able to point and shoot , without having to remember where or how much to hold off of or above the animal. That’s my main goal.
I’m trying to get to where I can look/ sight down/along the center of the barrel using the tip of the front sight on the center of the target and hit where I’m looking.
At this point I do need to file the front sight down some , but I don’t think I can go as low as I need too which I know means raising the rear which means raising my head more.
I’m using a small dot of white out on the base of the front sight now to simulate a shorter bead.
But that’s not what I’m looking for ....
I hope this makes sense ...
-
Yes, it all makes sense Smo, and I'm just wearing you out with ideas!
It sounds like a bit of bend might be required. It Was a solution for long barrels shooting off.
-
I’m in agreement , it’s just frustrating getting there.
Back to the original post, the load does show an improvement in patterning out of my gun compaired to a more conventional loading sequence .
It’s well worth testing in your guns.
-
I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.
(https://i.ibb.co/qr4Dncz/turkey-load.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
I haven't read this thread, so this info might have been mentioned already.
When I was younger and made a living trap shooting. The pattern our guns shot was very important.
We all shot the same ammo which was factory ammo. I use to shoot 1-2 cases a week. Nobody reloaded because back then we couldn't buy the hard shot that factory loads had.
Al Timney used to come to all the shoots to do trigger mods for everybody. He also did work on the chokes. It was amazing how much better the pattern looked after he did his magic on the choke. I used to shoot a single shot Perazzi and you would think it would come with a good pattern since it was a dedicated trap gun. Yet, Al could make it shoot better.
My point is for those who can't get your gun to shoot a good pattern. Maybe some choke work will help. I have no idea what Al did to the choke and he was talking about it either. I'm sure there are gunsmiths that know what to do.
-
I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.
(https://i.ibb.co/qr4Dncz/turkey-load.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Good luck this Spring Ron. Hope you leave a trail of feathers in your wake!
Best regards, Skychief.
-
A really timely discussion for me. I'm headed to east Washington in May to hunt turkeys with my mid-1800's ( pretty sure it's 1849 1/2 ;)) Wiengandt 16 gauge double. The attached image is a 25 yard 1 1/4 oz load with 75 grains of 2F and a 1/8" nitro overpowder wad, 1/4" cushion and an overshot card. The raised circle is 3" in diameter. I'm not sure how to evaluate this. Maybe the turkey died and if it was a good day for him, he didn't. I'm not sure what to think about this but am interested in opinions.
(https://i.ibb.co/rwxvY4D/Wiengardt-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z4XNpGq)
-
To an old Southern boy, those cushion wads soaking remind me of sausage! I bet sausage would release that much oil and grease too. Hah. God Bless, Marc
-
I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark
-
I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark
Mark, load a oil soaked fiber wad on top of the shot and you'll be smoking clays out to 32 yards. ;D
-
Smo - what do the patterns with just over shot, thin cards between the powder and shot look like?
I won a trap shoot with an H. Wahl 11 bore, using 3drams 2F (82gr.), 2 thin cards, then 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2 shot, then another thin card.
That gun seemed to like the combination. I got the idea to try that, from this site.
It used to shoot very weak, thin and holey to completely blown patterns if I used 12" fiber wads, normally. The 2 to 3 thin cards between powder and
shot did not disrupt the pattern.