AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Herb on February 05, 2018, 06:23:48 AM
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I got the fantods (Jack O'Connor) from too many hours of building another close copy of the Kit Carson Hawken. It was 50 degrees here and with no snow, I figured I should take a break and try out my .58 Leman, recently rebored by Bobby Hoyt from a .54 GRRW barrel that went through a fire and had been rebuilt by me into an elk rifle. I made it as a caplock then changed it to a flintlock. It has a 24 inch 1 1/16" barrel, which was too pitted to lap smooth. Thus the rebore. I hunted elk with it one season two years ago.
(I typed the text then uploaded the pictures and don't know how to move them where I want them. Sorry about that).
Today I tested five powders in it, using .570 cast balls and .016 linen that crushed to .010. I made weight calibrated measures for each powder. Shot four-shot groups of each at 50 yards through my Oehler 35P chronograph after a first fouling shot. I had a damp cleaning patch on the seater jag, thus wiped the bore at each loading, but did not clean between powders until after the fourth one. The 100 grains of Goex 2F grouped well and the patches were good. Then I went to Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F and the patches blew. So with the next powders, I used .019/.012 Levi, which held together so well it could have been used again, but required hammering the short starter to get the ball in the bore. I need a thinner patch.
With no cleaning, I went to Alliant Black MZ. This is probably to be loaded volume equivalent to Goex 2F. I weighed those charges, and they averaged 88 grains, this being a coarse powder. But to test weight equivalent charges, I made a measure that held 100 grains of BMZ. This will not ignite reliably without a black powder booster charge, so I poured the measure full, then tapped out 5 or 10 grains and filled that with Goex 2F and poured it down the bore. Real black powder must be used in the pan, I use about four grains of Goex 4F. This results in perfectly reliable firing, I would trust it in any situation.
I had not cleaned the bore before this test and the velocity spread was large, but the group was good. I then cleaned the bore to go home, but decided to shoot the Swiss 1 1/2F with good patches. Then I had all the testing I wanted.
I have also used Black MZ in a .45 flintlock Lancaster style rifle I built, and it worked perfectly, with the black powder boost and black in the pan. Anyone who says Black MZ or the Pyrodex or Triple 7 powders will not work in a flintlock has not tested these powders adequately to state that as fact.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kOzZox/Herb2016_Elk.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dokkvc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jo9H8x/58_Leman_Test.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bMcR1H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ixYigH/58_Leman_Butt_Black_MZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mZbfTx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gLnR1H/58_Leman_Alliant_BMZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fvvqTx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kLPnrH/DSC04418.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRO2Qc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iTjWJx/Leman_Black_MZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iL1YWH)
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Now that’s a neat little close-quarters thumper! Sure looks like it likes Swiss 1 1/2...
Greg
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Nice documentation. How’s the shoulder, Herb?
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I wouldn’t use any of the black powder substitutes in any of my guns. I’ve seen too many with barrel damage, even though they were well maintained.
Hungry Horse
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Rich, it really thumped me. I used a home-made PAST shoulder pad, but a small sandbag between gun and shoulder works better. I had to keep my face off the stock to avoid getting bruised there. When I hunted elk with this as a .54, I think my load was 110 grains of OE 1 1/2, or maybe even Swiss 2F. I shot 100 grains as a nice round number for comparing powders.
Hungry Horse, I do not use these non-black powders in my rifles, but a lot of people do and they need to know how this stuff works. So I test them and report on them. I can't remember how many CASES of black powder I have used in the last 25 years in test shooting. I still have two cans of Triple 7 powder that Chris Hodgdon sent me about 2004 as writer samples when I phoned him with some questions. It works as good now as it did then, no deterioration as some claim, but my shoulder was not up to more shooting yesterday and I needed different patching. I would also prefer smaller balls, I think they are .562, but somebody borrowed my mold and never brought it back.
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I have never heard of T-7 deteriorating, but have for the Pyrodex- they are not the same, far from it. Although the MSDS sheet says T-7 has percolates, the same as Pyrodex, apparently it does not, according to Monk.
Hodgdon used the same formula sheets (apparently) to simplify the gov't. 'process'. Monk noted, if he HAD to use a sub, he would use ONLY T-7 as the rest were either underpowered sugar based, or perchlorate based - iirc.
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Herb;
I have an old Navy Arms .58 cal. Harpers Ferry that I shoot ocasionally. And, have found that the .562 round balls are easier to load than larger balls, and perform nearly as well. They do just fine on big critters.
Hungry Horse
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Thanks, Hungry Horse. .562 balls work well for me in my .58s. I will try to find my mold.
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Herb..Great report..love the details....
Gotta ask...Was that rifle loud?.....Have a short barrel in .32 cal. and it barks.
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Yes, it is loud, but I wear hearing protection, muffs. Found my double cavity .562 Lee mold. Hope to cast some balls and shoot some more before winter comes- if it ever does. And the Goex 2F and Swiss 1 1/2F groups are the same size, 1.4" spread. I expect Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F will group even better with proper patches, and they give more velocity.
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Great analysis and presentation of your findings. You certainly have a lot of patience and probably bruises too.
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Yesterday my daughter Mary Jo and I went to the Uintah Care Center where I play guitar and we sing about 25 songs once a month. Been doing this about 20 years. We did "Make Me A Pallet on Your Floor" ("make it soft, make it low, so my good gal will never know"- (some hanky panky in that song). This 95 year old gal said "You got a fat lip and cheek. Did you sass your wife?"
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Good report Herb.
.562's have always worked for me .
Somehow, your song reminds me of a local Cowboy Poet, Bryn Thiessen.
Had a poem about being in church and a big lady sitting in front. When she stood up, her dress got stuck in her behind, and after pondering, he pulled it out for her. She got real indignant,...............But even More so when he "tried to put it back!"
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Your post regarding a short barreled Leman reminded me of a set of gun fittings a guy tried to sell me years ago. The barrel was what caught everybodies attention. It was 1 1/2” across the flats, and .56 caliber, but it was only 26” long. Since the underrib appeared to be original to the barrel, I was left to assume this was how the gun was built. It was equiped with a back action lock, and fancy iron furniture. It looked very much like a modern made Tryon rifle, but was signed on the top barrel flat A. Wurfflein Phil. The barrel was also stamped by a San Francisco hardware store.
So I assume short barreled plains rifles were occasionally built by some gunsmiths. I would suspect the buyer had a specific task in mind when he ordered it.
Hungry Horse
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My rifle was built by Carl Walker, head gunsmith at the Green River Rifle works, outside the shop. Don't know why the short barrel, but the owner's trailer burned and the rifle was badly burned. A friend bought the salvage and had it for about 10 years until he gave it to me. I copied the lines of the original rifle. I had built a Leman in the Green River shop in 1978, so I knew the lines. Carl does not remember building the rifle, but it has his mark on the barrel, he knows he built it, but not why the short barrel. Might have been salvaged from a damaged barrel in the shop.
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The journals of the Lewis and Clark expedition records their blacksmith cutting off a substantial amount of damaged barrel on one of their rifles. They shot the rifle to see how it affected the accuracy and found it changed things very little. This gun was given to one of their native guides.
Hungry Horse
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Herb,love seeing your gun reports,glad you are still entertaining people with your guitar.Very generous of you.Is the Leman going to be your new Elk Rifle?That rifle would work good climbing the brushy hillsides of N.E. Iowa.And even tho we have some of the biggest Whitetails in the country,I think that .58 will work LOL!I use a .58 for them,not that I need to,I just like putting a big hole in them.I think my barrel is 28" and it does have quite the belch to it.But The recoil doesn't bother me ,I don't load super heavy and use round balls.
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Hello. No, I think I am done elk hunting. Missed last season because I was back in your neighborhood, and Prairie, and LeClaire and on the river. With no snow, the elk stay high and hunting them is too unrewarding. But- if a friend wants me to hunt with him, yes. I need a rifle I can shoot off-hand. It really is used to help climb and descend hills, drop the butt to the ground and push or balance. I just put another 21 shots through it from the bench today. Will post photos in a day or so.
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Herb, you’re a great example, teacher and mentor in your Hawken builds and working up loads. Keep it coming!
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Hello. No, I think I am done elk hunting. Missed last season because I was back in your neighborhood, and Prairie, and LeClaire and on the river. With no snow, the elk stay high and hunting them is too unrewarding. But- if a friend wants me to hunt with him, yes. I need a rifle I can shoot off-hand. It really is used to help climb and descend hills, drop the butt to the ground and push or balance. I just put another 21 shots through it from the bench today. Will post photos in a day or so.
LoL - I had to do just that, the year before my knee replacement, Herb - using my .69 as a crutch on the rifle trails at the Hefley Creek Shoot, as I had a cane in the other hand.
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I cast about a hundred .562 balls and shot two new powders. I ran out of light or would have shot a couple more. Used the .019 Levi which crushes to .012, but some patches blew. I had weight-calibrated measures for Swiss 2F, Olde Ensford 2F and 1 1/2F and Goex 2F, which I used for the Triple 7.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ePJh1H/58_Leman_Test_Triple7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jevUgH)
Swiss 2F and Olde E. 2F . The chevron target is easier to hold center. No shots called out or flinched on, and I had enough klatches that I could see my hold was always good. I need better flints.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hbEN1H/58_Leman_Swiss_2_F_OE_2_F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bLtt8x)
The Levi patches held for Olde E. 1 1/2F. This is my favorite powder.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fGgVox/58_Leman_OE_1_and_half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ei6wTx)
Here is Triple 7 2F, which Hodgdon sent me as a writer's sample in 2004. I only use it for testing, and this bottle has been open a long time. It is used bulk equivalent with black powder, I assume Goex 2F. I filled the 100 grain Goex 2F measure full of T7 and tapped out about 10 grains, which I replaced with Goex 2F for 100 grains of propellant. Dumped that down the bore and primed with Goex 2F, I'd run out of Goex 4F prime. The powder fired just like the others. All patches were donut-holed. This is a hot powder and needs an over powder wad, such as the 3/4 inch heavy wool one shown here.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cyAegH/58_Leman_Triple_7_2_F_patches.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kpqO8x)
These loads have heavy recoil from the bench. I use a sawdust-filled shot bag between the butt and my shoulder, and that works well. Once I had the butt plate more out on my bicep, and that cured me of that hold! I have a bruise from that one shot, but not from holding the butt in the pocket of my shoulder. I started these tests because someone on another forum wanted to know how Alliant Black MZ behaved, and to refute the usual experts that say the "replica" powders will not work in a flintlock. I chose 100 grains just for ease of comparison mathematically, for those who do that kind of thing. No reason to think that should be an especially accurate load with any powder, but they all shot well when the patches held. Measuring the groups, Goex 2F was 1.8 inches, Olde E 1 1/2F was 1.7 and Swiss 1 1/2F was 1.6 inches for four shots each at 50 yards. The velocities were 1308, 1522 and 1413 fps.
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Yesterday my daughter Mary Jo and I went to the Uintah Care Center where I play guitar and we sing about 25 songs once a month. Been doing this about 20 years.
Thank you for raising Mary Jo. I sure hope she is blessed with lots of children. You have done more then one man's work for this world. shame on us all too selfish to follow suit.
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Great shooting and excellent post! Thank you very much!
Matthew
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I went out to shoot another series, but the wind blew my targets down so I had to quit. Here is 100 grains of Goex 3F and 100 grains of Olde Eynsford 3F. This is the only good group I have ever shot with OE 3F. Don't know why the Goex grouped so big.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jiEr1S/58_Leman_3_F_test.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j6OjMS)
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Shot some more today. I tried Goex 2F again, thinking it was low in velocity at 1308 fps on February 4. Started with .010 linen, and .562 cast balls, two patches blew, low velocity. This was the same linen that with the .570 balls gave 1308 fps and a good group on Feb 4th. Switched to .012 linen, and got 1317 fps. Don't know why all four shots weren't in one hole, but my cast balls are not round. Had to sort them by weight, and in miking them I found them out of round.
Then I went to Alliant Black MZ, 90 grains from my 100 grain Goex 2F measure, topped off with about 10 grains of Goex 2F. Used a thick wool 3/4" over powder wad then the .012 linen and .562 cast. I found 5 good patches. Shot five shots, first no velocity reading, four averaged 1424 fps with 44 spread. On Feb 4, the same powder but with .570 cast and .012 Levi patches gave 1622 fps with a spread of 139 fps. Apparently the velocity difference is due to the larger ball and a different patch.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iuYgAn/58_Leman_ABMZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cVTEVn)
Then I went to Triple 7 2F, about 90 grains in the 100 grain Goex 2F measure, topped off with about 10 grains of Goex 2F. Goex 4F in the pan. .562 cast, same .012 linen and wool over powder wad. All shots fired normally. Found 3 holed and one blown patch. The same load on February 7 with an .012 Levi patch and no OPW gave 1648 fps, only 11 fps faster, with a spread of 81.
(https://preview.ibb.co/e4XmbS/58_Leman_T72_F_OPW.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gc7KwS)
I have now shot 14 targets with 61 charges of 100 grains of powder with Goex 3F, 2F, Olde Eynsford 3F, 2F and 1 1/2F, Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F, Alliant Black MZ and Triple 7 2F. I wanted a direct comparison of these powders using 100 grains weight of each. I had to change from .570 to .562 balls for ease of loading, and changed patching three times. Any of those powders would do for elk hunting, given a thick enough patch. Bobby Hoyt did a great job on the rebore.
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Hi,
Thank you Herb, for the great effort that you have done to give us this valuable information.
If I may add. I have had great success in shooting good scores by using a bees wax and olive mix soaked into a 3/16 felt wad over powder wad.
Each wad is cut to slightly over size to bore. Over bore size makes them easier to load and stay in place in the bore
It works well from .40 cal. to .62 cal.
Most all patches were fine enough to use again.
Yes the wads are a bit stiff in the cold, but as soon as you start them down the barrel they form well and easy. You can't really use a 3/4" wad down a .40 cal. barrel, a 7/16" wad works fine.
I punch a bunch of them on the end of a hard wood board, two hundred or so at a time.
Then in a shallow tin can I melt the olive oil/beeswax mix about 25/75. When the olive oil & beeswax is liquid I put 20 or so at a time in the mix, take them out, let them cool on wax paper. ( at first I put the wads on plywood, they stuck too well, not bad on a piece of aluminium, but wax paper was the best.
These wads really make a difference in stopping patch burn out and keeping the fowling soft.
PS: You can purchase the hole punches at your local hardware stores, Harbour Freight, auto supply stores, or from me at only 5 easy payments of $19.95 ;D
Best regards!
Fred
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Thanks, Old Ford. I appreciate you sharing this with us. I use a 3/4" Harbor Freight tool to punch the thick wool, but the Triple 7 needed something thicker, maybe two of those 1/8" thick wool wads. I cut them oversize so they will cup and not go down the bore edgewise. I don't need to shoot any more T7, I have demonstrated how to use it in a flintlock, which was why I used it. I like Alliant Black MZ. We finally have snow here, about 5" now and still coming. A friend from the old GRRW, Carney, has some original GRRW black powder, 3F and 2F, which he is offering me to use for comparison. When my shooting range dries out and it warms up again, I'll shoot those powders for the historical comparison. Put it in a separate topic. I have a pound of GRRW 2F, but I'll get the story of the powder from Carney and add it to the forum. He also has some interesting patching and sperm whale oil, so we'll see what comes out of all that.
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I got the fantods (Jack O'Connor) from too many hours of building another close copy of the Kit Carson Hawken. It was 50 degrees here and with no snow, I figured I should take a break and try out my .58 Leman, recently rebored by Bobby Hoyt from a .54 GRRW barrel that went through a fire and had been rebuilt by me into an elk rifle. I made it as a caplock then changed it to a flintlock. It has a 24 inch 1 1/16" barrel, which was too pitted to lap smooth. Thus the rebore. I hunted elk with it one season two years ago.
(I typed the text then uploaded the pictures and don't know how to move them where I want them. Sorry about that).
Today I tested five powders in it, using .570 cast balls and .016 linen that crushed to .010. I made weight calibrated measures for each powder. Shot four-shot groups of each at 50 yards through my Oehler 35P chronograph after a first fouling shot. I had a damp cleaning patch on the seater jag, thus wiped the bore at each loading, but did not clean between powders until after the fourth one. The 100 grains of Goex 2F grouped well and the patches were good. Then I went to Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F and the patches blew. So with the next powders, I used .019/.012 Levi, which held together so well it could have been used again, but required hammering the short starter to get the ball in the bore. I need a thinner patch.
With no cleaning, I went to Alliant Black MZ. This is probably to be loaded volume equivalent to Goex 2F. I weighed those charges, and they averaged 88 grains, this being a coarse powder. But to test weight equivalent charges, I made a measure that held 100 grains of BMZ. This will not ignite reliably without a black powder booster charge, so I poured the measure full, then tapped out 5 or 10 grains and filled that with Goex 2F and poured it down the bore. Real black powder must be used in the pan, I use about four grains of Goex 4F. This results in perfectly reliable firing, I would trust it in any situation.
I had not cleaned the bore before this test and the velocity spread was large, but the group was good. I then cleaned the bore to go home, but decided to shoot the Swiss 1 1/2F with good patches. Then I had all the testing I wanted.
I have also used Black MZ in a .45 flintlock Lancaster style rifle I built, and it worked perfectly, with the black powder boost and black in the pan. Anyone who says Black MZ or the Pyrodex or Triple 7 powders will not work in a flintlock has not tested these powders adequately to state that as fact.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kOzZox/Herb2016_Elk.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dokkvc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jo9H8x/58_Leman_Test.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bMcR1H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ixYigH/58_Leman_Butt_Black_MZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mZbfTx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gLnR1H/58_Leman_Alliant_BMZ.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fvvqTx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kLPnrH/DSC04418.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRO2Qc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iTjWJx/Leman_Black_MZ.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iL1YWH)
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Thanks Herb!
This is just dandy.
One Eye
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I wouldn’t use any of the black powder substitutes in any of my guns. I’ve seen too many with barrel damage, even though they were well maintained.
Hungry Horse
HH has again hit the nail squarely on the head.A friend gave me some Triple 7
about 2 years ago and I finally gave it back to him.I still have more than enough
black powder from DuPont,Curtis&Harvey,Elephant and Goex and a wee bit of
Meteor,whatever that is or was.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
If memory serves, Meteor was made by Curtis' & Harvey's.
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The last can of it I had said: "Made in Scotland".