AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: robpack@Hotmail.com on February 05, 2018, 10:50:07 PM
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Hi I purchased what I was told was a John Bivens 50 cal...inside the patch box it has Pennsylvania Centennial 1776 1976 1 of 3... ANY INFORMATION is greatly appreciated..... I was told it was made by John Bivens but on the barrel its stamped IB??? I paid very little money for this rifle, so do not be afraid to give me bad news..... Buyer bought it in a large lot of rifles... Also anyone know how to repair the patch box button...patchbox will not remain closed? Seems like a very simple fix...... I can send pics if anyone would like to see some?????? It looks unfired.... about 5.5 feet long... One other question, how many grains of 2F can I put down the barrel? I'm VERY familiar with Thompson centers, can I use the same load in this bivens? I was concerned being that the barrel is longer?
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IB was John Bivins’ stamp. In colonial times sometimes J’s looked like I’s.
This could be a valuable collectors item. Think about whether the rifle or the money would bevmore important to you. Any signs of real use will diminish value.
We’d like to see pictures!
If you’re relatively new to black powder you might think about visiting a black powder gun club.
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Photos please, several or more if possible!
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IB is John Bivins’ touch mark. The problem with the lid is usually wood shrinkage. A little careful file work on the sides of the lid will usually fix that. If you are not familiar with that kind of work, let someone who is do it for you. Some yayhoo screwing with it could devalue it considerably. Shooting it will also devalue it.
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:o :o :o... WOW,.... that's all I got to say about that ................
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Bivins and a couple of others took the contract to make the bicentennial rifles for Pa. That led to them being classified as manufacturers instead of custom builders by the ATF and opened a can of IRS tax worms for all involved. Too long a story to relate here. There was a horn and bag sold with the rifles. Here is a cut-and-paste from Jim Chambers 2008 post on here.
Here's the introduction I had for the Bicentennial Rifle Project display at the CLA show this past summer:
"The year was 1975 - V. Donald Hartnett, a history teacher from Johnstown, PA, conceived an idea for helping Pennsylvania celebrate the country"s Bicentennial. He made a proposal to the PA State Legislature that they commission the manufacture of a limited production (200) of Pennsylvania longrifles. The project was approved under the chairmanship of Lt. Governor Ernest P. Kline with Mr. Hartnett as the Project Director. Thus was born the "Bicentennial Rifle".
Two of the premier gunmakers of the time accepted the contract to make the rifles. John Bivins from NC and Jack Haugh from IN were to make 100 rifles each with Bivins using odd numbers 1 - 199 and Haugh to number his with even numbers 2 - 200. Tom White of OH agreed to make all 200 scrimshawed and numbered powder horns. Sally Sutart (a well recognized Johnstown, PA artist) designed and made two plaques that went with each set and hand painted the display racks.
All of the barrels were made in 50 caliber by Robert Paris of Gettysburg, PA. C.E. (Bud) Siler of NC supplied all the flintlock mechanisms and assisted with the production of the hardware. Joe Scorsone of NC did the initial machining of the stocks. Monte Mandarino and Mark Silver moved to NC and helped John Bivins with the production of the rifles.
Each Bicentennial set included the rifle, a powder horn, tow plaques, a target shot with the rifle, and an instruction booklet on the proper use and care of the rifle and horn. The cost of the Bicentennial Rifle Set in 1976: $2250."
While the lock, stock, and hardware was the same for all the rifles, the carving and engraving was different on each one.
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Well trying to post pics? I sent them from my phone to email saved them on my computer but how do I get them to here? no clue.....
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I can easily email them...but cannot do this....it simply comes up img?? never had this problem putting pics up but IM SURE I'm doing something wrong
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When you hit reply, you will see Add Image below the dialog box, click on it and select your pix, highlight them click open then up load and they should be here.
If that doesn't work send them to me, ccrosby004@columbus.rr.com and I will post them for you.
Tim C.
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On the note of shooting it, if you really know how to take care of a muzzleloader, and can clean it completely, I don't think shooting it will "hurt" it if you are careful.
That said, I am a little concerned by the question about how much 2f you can stuff down the barrel. The question that you SHOULD be asking is, "At what general load in a .50 have y'all gotten the best accuracy from your .50 gun?" I would start at 55 grains or so, and shoot a group at 50 yards. Put up another target at 50 yards and increase to 60 grains. Keep doing that until your group size shrinks, then begins opening up. The smallest group size will be your powder charge. I would guess somewhere around 70 to 75 grains with a .495 roundball and .015 to .018 heavy canvas all cotton patch. You should hear it start to "crack" around 65-70 grains. Remember, it is of no importance how much powder you can stuff down, or how fast the ball goes, if you cannot hit that at which you are aiming.
You have to ask yourself now, "Do I really want to shoot this expensive gun enough to determine the load it likes?" If not, you may want to market it and buy something else.
I hope this does not offend. It was not intended to do so, but rather to be helpful.
Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfTThVc%2F20180205_140524_956.jpg&hash=3286f50d1d6d2360df90c270ee34edbd3a23e96b) (http://ibb.co/h9mEbH)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbH32wH%2F20180205_164312_965.jpg&hash=e70ae3b7ef4b7cc71d908633eddf27e18899aa9d) (http://ibb.co/kebcVc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fcv99bH%2F20180205_164328_963.jpg&hash=1c971ae73bc2f460fc4eee5127c9cf2c51ce17a2) (http://ibb.co/jOg0ix)
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MarcRuger I simply meant can I use the "standard" load I always use in my 50 cal renegades....Didn't know if barrel length had anything to do with pressures, but I was lucky enough to talk to Bill Shipman yesterday on the telephone....(builder from Lancaster) he told me that bivens is STRONGER than a Thompson...... That is all I meant by powder, same load...I am falling in love with this rifle....
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One more question about this Bivins how difficult is barrel removal? I'm used to one "key" pop it out and done? How do the small pins come out? something like maybe a fine finish nail and gently push them out? there are at least 3 I believe?
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Why can I find no information on John Bivens life? I cannot find an obituary? a picture? etc? any help?
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Why on earth would you want to take the barrel out? These guns are at their most vulnerable point when the barrel is removed. Unless you REALLY NEED to take the barrel out, leave it in place.
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Don't take the barrel out. This is probably a 5K gun. I'm probably low on my estimate.
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Why can I find no information on John Bivens life? I cannot find an obituary? a picture? etc? any help?
Take a look at this it may be of some help but it is from 2012 and some of the links may not work.
Tim C.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20634.0
Also scroll through this:
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=john+bivins
One more; Do a "Search" on John Bivins here on the ALR, you will find Ten pages with reference to John. You will have to sort through them to see what you can find, some are just references to his book but there are some interesting stories/posts.
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Just to repeat what others have said, that is a valuable gun and very collectible. DON'T SHOOT IT. LEAVE THE BARREL IN. Sell it to a collector, pocket the difference and buy a half dozen other guns to shoot with the profits. That's the lucky kind of purchase most of us other punters only dream of.
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Understood, it will probably be up for sale, I wanted a custom as an "alternative" to my Thompson centers..... As a 20 year old, 30 some years ago I purchased a 45 caliber "custom" in a bar.....It may have been an original from the 1700s for all I know. Loved it, accurate, light, accurate, always went off.... Anyhow fast forward 2 years I was driving deer in flintlock season, a man approached me at my vehicle and saw the 45cal...he offered me 300 on the spot for it which I accepted (needed the money was in college at the time) I STILL REGRET that, no clue who the man was or where he was from, but like I said I needed the money..... I was at the Artesian show in Lewisburg looking on Saturday and actually drove around looking at used customs guys had for sale.... I placed an ad on pennswoods classifieds about 2 weeks ago "want to buy custom flintlock" that is how I happened across this gun.....it was the third used one I looked at.... I have one man from this site emailing me about it..... I own rifles to USE, I cannot just "look" at it, it was made to shoot, but I understand it is a collectors item.... Any idea of an asking price would be wonderful?
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmV86rH%2F20180205_140445.jpg&hash=b0eb5fd524f13dfd80a055f2517c7bcbd2d80782) (http://ibb.co/gaCo5c)
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I'd probably be asking 5K, but I'd probably be giving it away.
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In all honesty, how or who does determine value on these rifles?
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Brooks knows the market as good as anyone. You may also want to consult Jim Chambers. He’s really in tune to market and realistic sale prices.
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Jim has bought and sold these rifles.
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Is this rifle for sale.....
Do you have any clear pictures of the rifle. Does it show use or scratches. That frizzen looks as its been used.
Where are you located. There is no info in your profile.....
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In all honesty, how or who does determine value on these rifles?
I'll give you a thousand bucks for it if you don't like my first estimate.
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I am located outside Tyrone Pa..... my email is robpack@Hotmail.com
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Buckstopshere (Buck Buchanan) Who is a member here knows a lot about John Bivins. He and Lew Sanchez owned a gun shop in Fayetteville NC during the period these Rifles were being made. I thought he might have seen this thread and jumped in with some information by now.
If I am not mistaken these rifle came with a test target and a Horn and Possible bag set. With a Rifle like this you should get some nice clear pictures made.
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well anyone seriously interested email me and I will share my phone number so you can call me....... I REALLY want one I can actually shoot..... but I was told by several people not to shoot this as it would hurt the value....
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as far as scratches there is one its more of a smear it is visible in the stock pic with the fancy engraving that is the only mark on the rifle..
yep the frizzen looks as though it has been struck a few times (but don't they fire them when they make them?) no burns or anything from powder, barrel is perfect with my bore scope, as I said email me if interested....what I would REALLY like to do is sell to a builder and have him make me a lightweight 50cal that I can actually use and make up the difference in cash...... that would be ideal........
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You have mail!
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Well...... ok, here goes. I'm tickled you found a "John Bivens" rifle, and a bicentennial to boot, ! Nobody buys a $250,000 sports car and leaves it in the garage. So here's the deal, IT'S YOUR GUN. You wanted a nicer rifle to move up in the gun department and well you have. John Bivens was as much of an idol as Fess Parker. So if you bought it for your retirement or for your kids inheritance , sell it and move on. However, it's not always about money. Wouldn't it be fun to roam about the woods deer hunting with a genuine John Bivens? It's already been shot, so no difference there. I know of a guy who used to shoot his original Hawken . Didn't seem to effect its worth. Hey, if you want you could send it to Montana and we'll let everybody in the club take a shot and Deny Ducet can film the whole thing for you. It's yours, enjoy it , that's what we are supposed to be doing in this hobby, having fun!
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I AGREE 100% MTLONGHUNTER!!!!!!!!!!!! I really do, believe me, today I put a new flint in her, and sat and thought----hmmmmm, how bad would it be to fire it....... I'm retired money is NOT an issue, but I got "the business" when I talked about "unpinning" the barrel to scrub it down....SO I'm still up in the air, a man just emailed and offered me 2500 for it, I talked to a gun maker in Lancaster today, he said 3000 MINIMUM 5 to 8k common..... SO I have no clue.... I think I will at the very least take it to Old Bedford Village Flintlock show in I think April and get some opinions there.....
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You are getting sage advice from experienced collectors, makers and students of the Longrifle here on this Forum. Being in business with my late "partner in grime", Lewis Sanchez, I was introduced to many of the "legends of gunmaking", Fred Riley, Bill Buchele, Mark Silver, John Braxton, and of course, John Bivins. One can view a number of John's works in Robert Weil's book.
One night, Lew called me to come over to his house to let me know of John's arrival and to view a combined effort of suberb workmanship "attended to" by four or five masters. It was, of course, "The Wheelock" (pages 36-41 in Weil's book). It was a marvel to see for only an hour before John drove back home.
Occasionally, I'll pull my Bivins rifle out of the safe to enjoy the beauty that John created for me back in 1977. It was ordered in 1974. Its an "abbreviated version" of the rifle John made for Lew, which, of course, graces the cover of the 1977 Gun Digest. The flintlock to its left on the dark blue cover was the early work of Monte Manderino, who worked with John.
The one distinguishing feature of mine is the position of the Siler lock. Its on the left side. It is John's first left-hand flintlock rifle. The lock was assembled by Monte, when he resided in Old Salem. It was from one of the first half-dozen left-hand kits that Bud sold.
Jim Chambers will be your best bet to see about its value.
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I picked up a Frank Bartlett rifle a couple of years ago and it appears to be worth quite a bit. I did pull the barrel to look underneath. I wanted to see who made the barrel.
I knew the risk and was very careful. Might not of been the smartest thing I have ever done, but certainly not the most stupid.
Fleener
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Well...... ok, here goes. I'm tickled you found a "John Bivens" rifle, and a bicentennial to boot, ! Nobody buys a $250,000 sports car and leaves it in the garage. So here's the deal, IT'S YOUR GUN. You wanted a nicer rifle to move up in the gun department and well you have. John Bivens was as much of an idol as Fess Parker. So if you bought it for your retirement or for your kids inheritance , sell it and move on. However, it's not always about money. Wouldn't it be fun to roam about the woods deer hunting with a genuine John Bivens? It's already been shot, so no difference there. I know of a guy who used to shoot his original Hawken . Didn't seem to effect its worth. Hey, if you want you could send it to Montana and we'll let everybody in the club take a shot and Deny Ducet can film the whole thing for you. It's yours, enjoy it , that's what we are supposed to be doing in this hobby, having fun!
I find most $250,000 sports cars DO sit in the garage and are never driven.
I personally don't care what this guy does with this gun. When he mentioned he had to pull the barrel to clean it I knew with his limited experience with Thompson centers this gun was doomed to be abused and reduced in value. But as you and he state "It's his gun", he rich, he doesn't need the money and doesn't really care if he ruins it or not. Go ahead, dork it up, it's not my concern.
From shooting a TC Renegade then falling into a Bivens Bicentennial rifle and not knowing what an important rifle you have. Life isn't fair sometimes...... ???
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Well said, Mike.
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Jim has bought and sold these rifles.
Barbie recently showed me a safe full of rifles owned by a prominent collector. He asked Jim to periodically sell them for him. Just about every one of the contemporary masters is represented in this collection, including a petite Jaeger by Bivens.
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Mike Brooks, WOW, perhaps, just maybe you could explain how John Bivens himself shot this rifle, then cleaned it without hot soapy water? He DID shoot the rifle at a target at least once from what I'm told...... I asked the question about removing the barrel because I AM ONLY FAMILIAR WITH THOMPSONS (PULL ONE KEY AND THE WHOLE BARREL FALLS OFF)...... How do you learn but by asking... PERHAPS a better response from you would be, hey if you HAVE to shoot it (which I just might do to irritate you ) here is how you can clean the barrel without risking damage removing it....or anything along those lines....... As of now I just got done smearing the entire gun down in cosmoline to prevent rust--including the wood, and I have it laying near my woodburner to dry...... Beside that I have not touched it..... LOL and yes I'm kidding about the cosmoline and woodburner.......
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I can see this gun is not going to be sold untill its made the rounds of finding the person who will pay the highest dollar for it. The value of the gun is what a person is willing to pay for it or what the person who owns it wants for it.
The pictures are not good enough for me to make an offer. I would like to see it in person or in better pictures.
I personly think there are people on this forum who builds as good a rifle as Bivins built. Maybe better. A lot has happened since the 70's.
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There are any number of ways to clean a barrel without removing it. I have quite a few that have never had the barrel removed and are shot regularly including a Bivins rifle from 1972. A greased(to prevent leaks) toothpick in the touchhole will let you use whatever you want to clean the gun.
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Interesting thread here, especially Jim Chambers' posts.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2386.0
Tim C.
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Mike Brooks, WOW, perhaps, just maybe you could explain how John Bivens himself shot this rifle, then cleaned it without hot soapy water? He DID shoot the rifle at a target at least once from what I'm told...... I asked the question about removing the barrel because I AM ONLY FAMILIAR WITH THOMPSONS (PULL ONE KEY AND THE WHOLE BARREL FALLS OFF)...... How do you learn but by asking... PERHAPS a better response from you would be, hey if you HAVE to shoot it (which I just might do to irritate you ) here is how you can clean the barrel without risking damage removing it....or anything along those lines....... As of now I just got done smearing the entire gun down in cosmoline to prevent rust--including the wood, and I have it laying near my woodburner to dry...... Beside that I have not touched it..... LOL and yes I'm kidding about the cosmoline and woodburner.......
Go ahead, I'm generally irritated all the time anyway.
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OK, one more stupid question.... is there anything I can use to simply "wipe off fingerprints" etc, on this rifle? I have simply wiped it down with a dry cotton SOFT towel, is there a special "anything" that you use to do so, or just leave it be...???? Please be nice? LOL......
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What are we talking about here? Fingerprints on the wood or fingerprints in the metal work?
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IB was John Bivins’ stamp. In colonial times sometimes J’s looked like I’s.
Little late chiming in, but the marking is actually an "J" not a "J" that looks like an "I." There was originally was no letter "J" in the Latin alphabet. The English first adopted it from the French sometime in the early 17th century if I recall correctly. The modern letter "J" is derived from the original Latin "I," and "I" use in place of "J" in both the 18th and 19th century as well as the modern day is essentially a throw back to marks of older gunmakers.
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Hello Robpack,
First, welcome to ALR. Some of us are old, and some of us are crotchety, but we're not all old and crotchety. Hang in there with us, we really are a great group.
I am apparently in the minority, but I remove the barrel of my full-stock longrifles for cleaning after every shooting session. The times that I tried cleaning with the barrel in the stock, I managed to get black fouling water/stain all over my gunstock. NO more! If you are careful, you will have no problems. Here's what I do. Remove the lock. One of the lock screws may go thru the breechplug bolster. You will want the lock out to clean it properly anyway. Remove the screw(s) that goes thru the barrel tang. Remove the pins that hold the stock to the barrel. Make sure the pins aren't tapered, bigger on one side than the other. I ran into that once on an antique Use a punch that's a little smaller than the pins. It shouldn't take much pressure to push them out. Keep track of what came out of which hole.
Spread a towel or something soft on your benchtop or table. Once you have all the barrel attachment screws and pins removed, turn the gun barrel-side down, with the muzzle resting on the towel and the breech end an inch or 2 above the towel. Hold the stock at the wrist with one hand and with the other hand give the underside of the stock a light tap or 2. The barrel should fall out. Don't force it. Set the stock in a safe, out of the way place.
My "cleaning fluid" is a dash of dish soap in a coffee can full of luke warm tap water. Put a toothpick in the touchhole and pour the barrel full of the soapy water. Let it sit while you clean the lock with soapy water and a toothbrush, followed by a liberal spraying with WD-40. Set the lock aside to let the WD-40 run off. Pour the water out of the barrel. Fill it up again, dump it out. Remove the toothpick. Put the breech end of the barrel in the coffee can full of soapy water. With fairly tight fitting patches, pump water in and out of the barrel. This will jet clean the inside of the touchhole. Switch to new patches periodically. Once the patches are coming out clean, use several dry patches, then I follow with WD-40 to chase the water out, followed by Barricade rust preventative.
Once the barrel is clean and dry, lay it sights-side down on your bench-top pad. Retrieve your stock and fit it down over the barrel, line up the tang, it should slide right in. Replace the pins and screws. Wipe the lock dry and reinstall it. I use Johnson's paste wax on the finished wood.
Enjoy your rifle. It's a rare bird.
-Ron
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Enjoy your rifle. I own two Bivins rifles equal in value or more than the value of the Bivins rifle you own. Shoot them when and if I get ready clean them oil them put them back up simple. I belong to the group that cleans without pulling the barrel as I have never seen a need too take a fullstock flint barrel out to clean it. Those that do certainly can clean that way without a comment from me. Mark Silver owns the last rifle Bivins made he routinely hunts with it or at least he did while hunting with me. You have a nice Bivins made rifle but certainly not the most valuable he made. Enjoy it that's what they're made for. If you decide to sell it talk to Jim Chambers, he probably could give you an estimate on its value. Tim
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Thank you guys for all the valuable advice..... I have been in contact with Jim Chambers and John Getz, he is supposed to be calling me in the next few days....... I truly am DYING to see how accurate this 42 year old rifle is..... I actually ran a few oiled patches down the barrel this evening, they came out clean.......... I may just keep this rifle and use it for "light flintlock hunts"..... Park the truck, walk in the woods and stand.... Definitely not going to be walking any long distances or through brush with it... Once again, thanks for all the great advice.... I AM still a bit confused on the "cleaning the bore while it is attached to the stock"? You would think some black powder would get "down under" the barrel? Would that not cause corrosion? I know my thompsons ALWAYS have some powder "seep" down under the octagon barrels---I always wipe em out with a damp cloth and let them dry before re assembly.........
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE ADVICE!!!!! I WISH IT WAS FLINTLOCK SEASON HERE IN PA!!!!!!!!!
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Life is too short to hunt with ugly guns - Enjoy the heck out of it while you are it's care taker - Conversely, some of the ugly ones are some of the best ones.
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If the lockplate is tight against the barrel flat, there won't be any fouling under the barrel. If there is a little , you can wipe it away when the lock is removed for cleaning.
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"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
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John's Brochure from 1975. You will see the "IB" touchmark just to the left of the top flat engraving.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcJZNJx%2FIB.jpg&hash=18a0d3ae9352ee125cae5a8cb61eddaad7fe9d25) (http://ibb.co/f1cbdx)
upload img to html link (http://imgbb.com/)
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That is awesome!!!!!! Thanks for the post!!!!!!!! Its amazing to sit and look at this rifle....I wonder where it has been hiding for the past 42 years? Wish I could find the powder horn and possibles pouch that came with her........
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Wish I could find the powder horn and possibles pouch that came with her........
THAT would be the quest but whatever it took, worth the while.
Tim C.
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Please do bring it to the Bedford Pa show!! I'd love to see in person what everyone is talking about.
I will bring my piggy bank and all my extra plunder.
Just kidding, but ya never know.
I would just use a good wax on everything, light coat.
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Bigmon, What show in Bedford? Please post the info for the show. I will make that one. It's only a hour and a half from here. robpack@Hotmail.com,Please bring it to the show if you are able.
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google old bedford village events. I have it listed as April 6 and 7th the 6th its 1pm to 5pm and the 7th its 9am to 4pm. Do a google on Prickets Fort in West Virginia as well February 23rd and 24th. And another show in February in New Market Virginia on the 16th and 17th of February. Lots of shows this time of year. Attend one show and pick up fliers for the others. Not to mention the Baltimore show.
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jaeren, Thank You. I work at West Virginia University Hospital. I will be going to the Pricketts Fort show too. Don't know if I'll go to the one in New Market. It is a little over 3 hours.
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robpack@Hotmail.com, If you do plan on going to the Bedford show. Please let me know what time you will be there. Thank You, I would love to see that rifle in person.
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Thanks for all the advice, look me up on here before the Bedford Show, I will bring the Bivins, got the lock out no sweat, great advice here, simply tapped it out---using the screws from behind (GENTLY) fit in there perfect...... pics below....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbSEfqc%2F20180209_135152.jpg&hash=0f2706b2a2df74df4e8cb2c357f2a816cb34af1c) (http://ibb.co/j2TUix)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FedFmVc%2F20180209_135026_1051.jpg&hash=fc03d4b36cf3727acf821abfdc02e8a6121ab349) (http://ibb.co/fvPPGH)
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All of the barrels were made in 50 caliber by Robert Paris of Gettysburg, PA. C.E. (Bud) Siler of NC supplied all the flintlock mechanisms and assisted with the production of the hardware. Joe Scorsone of NC did the initial machining of the stocks. Monte Mandarino and Mark Silver moved to NC and helped John Bivins with the production of the rifles.
Each Bicentennial set included the rifle, a powder horn, tow plaques, a target shot with the rifle, and an instruction booklet on the proper use and care of the rifle and horn. The cost of the Bicentennial Rifle Set in 1976: $2250."
While the lock, stock, and hardware was the same for all the rifles, the carving and engraving was different on each one.
According to the information here the locks were all Bud Siler locks. Is that a L&R lock.
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I have NO idea, however, I'm sure someone here can shed some light?
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L&R assembled Siler locks for others for use in projects such as this. Siler lock for sure but assembled by L C and Liston (Chubby Jaws) Rice.
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Interesting thread people, I had the privilege of being in Bivins shop when the bi-centennial rifles were being made. They were a combined effort be a number of artisans of the day. Though the years I have encountered a few of them for sale - non had a price on them under $10,000! As to their value today it will depend on the collector and what he is willing to pay.
One further note , generally speaking, the contemporary collector is more willing to invest in a "unfired" rifle then one that has been used extensively. Of course there is always the exception. Historically, high end guns were made to shoot and not to hide away some where. In other words they were functional! as well as eye candy. You can have both!
Just my thoughts, Hugh Toenjes
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In the early 1970's I followed John Bivens work. I could never see enough of John's engraving and carving. He wrote articles in Rifle Magazine at that time. I have every original article that he ever wrote. At that time, I put them in a three ring note book. Still have it. Also, at that time I had finished a transitional rifle and took it to Friendship with me. I met John at the contemporary makers cabin. He displayed it for me while I was there. I still have the tri-folded piece of paper that he put my name on that he put in the rack with my flintlock. I also still have his advertisement that described different style rifles that he built.
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Jerry, if you look at one of the building articles in Rifle magazine, toward the end, he states, that the photos "reflect his first left-hand rifle being made for Buck Buchanan". I put my copy of the magazine in a very safe place. ::)
I'm thinking of writing up an article for submission here reviewing the day Jerry Fisher and I drove up to Old Salem to pick up my rifle. I have photos of John in his shop, and at the range, sighting in the rifle.
I promised "Broken Flint" I would send him a copy of the tri-fold brochure that I have outlining the features of each the three rifle styles he provided to customers. I hope to be able to remember to do that tomorrow.
Were it not for my being in business with him & a friend of Lew Sanchez from 1972 to 1982, I would not be as lucky as I am.
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Jerry, if you look at one of the building articles in Rifle magazine, toward the end, he states, that the photos "reflect his first left-hand rifle being made for Buck Buchanan". I put my copy of the magazine in a very safe place. ::)
I'm thinking of writing up an article for submission here reviewing the day Jerry Fisher and I drove up to Old Salem to pick up my rifle. I have photos of John in his shop, and at the range, sighting in the rifle.
I promised "Broken Flint" I would send him a copy of the tri-fold brochure that I have outlining the features of each the three rifle styles he provided to customers. I hope to be able to remember to do that tomorrow.
Were it not for my being in business with him & a friend of Lew Sanchez from 1972 to 1982, I would not be as lucky as I am.
If you get time to put it together please start a new Thread. I for one would love to see it.
Tim C.
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Were some of the rifles did by Larry Murock?
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I have a bicentennial rifle made by Mrock in 1975.( pics at www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com (http://www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com) in Sept. 2015 ) He made some for the Early American Society. Don't know about his association with Bivins.
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I have a bicentennial rifle made by Mrock in 1975.( pics at www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com (http://www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com) in Sept. 2015 ) He made some for the Early American Society. Don't know about his association with Bivins.
Made it easier to find, hope you don't mind. Click on them to enlarge.
Tim C.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdjEHAx%2FDSCF0786crop_1.jpg&hash=4eaeb7d42d07e38b4d8eac0d8e566ccecd422480) (http://ibb.co/i1bm3H)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbKaPqx%2Fzoom_Acrop_1.jpg&hash=2b76f2fa0f77cf3e689b2970d8777317df4464ca) (http://ibb.co/cxADiH)
upload your images (http://imgbb.com/)
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As mentioned above Larry Mrock made some rifles for the Early American Society, but he was not part of the Pennsylvania Bicentennial project. All of those rifles were made by either Bivins or Jack Haugh.