AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Marcruger on March 19, 2018, 12:28:05 AM
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Yep, experience counts for something. Daryl was correct in his loading method.
I was taught by a target shooter to always wipe with a damp, then dry patch between shots at the range. I'd get about five shots, then get a crud ring in front of the seated ball. Cleanup at the end of the day was often a chore.
Yesterday I went to the range with a fellow who wanted to get his gorgeous new .45 Bob Hill rifle shooting. He's an experienced shooter, and a great guy, just new to flinters. I advised him to try Daryl's method of wet patching and not wiping.
It worked! Like a charm. The last load went down as easy as the first. Using Hoppe's BP lube, the Minute Men .018 patching, and 60 grains of 3f. No burn-throughs and minor scorching. Clean up was a breeze.
It makes sense. If you wipe between shots, you are cramming the crud down to the breech, loading powder on top, and setting it off. That crud will be burned onto the breech and begin to build up.
I realized that Daryl's method makes perfect sense. Pour in the powder, wet the patch, seat the ball, and run it down. The crud is in between the powder and the patch/ball. It has nowhere to go but out of the barrel. I should have done this long ago.
I forgot to try Daryl's method of firing the last round as a light-load though. That would have made things even better I am sure. Less crud from the last shot.
Credit where credit is due. Thank you Daryl!
God Bless, and best wishes, Marc
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Yep, Wet, i.e., just shy of dripping, patches work just as Daryl (and Taylor!) said they do in my rifles and smoothies. I use both 1 Ballistol : 6 water in the rifles and Taylor's secret recipe in my smoothbores and really don't have to wipe the bore at all (20 - 25 shots) and there's no degradation of accuracy either. Both Daryl & Taylor unfailingly give good advice! 8)
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I have been shooting for years and never had a problem with crud on the breach plug. The difficulty I have is a crud ring that will not allow me to fully seat the ball after about 5 shots and have to wet patch to dispose of it. I do spit patch sopping wet. I am open to suggestions. Would using a lube prevent this?
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That works for target shooting. Not for hunting. You can't put a wet patch on top of the powder and leave it there all day.
I've done that for years for target shooting, but not when working up a hunting load or hunting. I use Mink Oil for that.
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That works for target shooting. Not for hunting. You can't put a wet patch on top of the powder and leave it there all day.
I've done that for years for target shooting, but not when working up a hunting load or hunting. I use Mink Oil for that.
Hunting (as I do it) doesn't require 20 shots a day. So loading differently then makes sense, just not loosely.
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That works for target shooting. Not for hunting. You can't put a wet patch on top of the powder and leave it there all day.
I've done that for years for target shooting, but not when working up a hunting load or hunting. I use Mink Oil for that.
Hunting (as I do it) doesn't require 20 shots a day. So loading differently then makes sense, just not loosely.
Me too for big game. The only time i'll take a lot of shots while hunting is for coyotes.
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Well that a lot fellas. Now none of my hats will fit.
Shooting muzzleloaders is different things to different folks. When I go out the shoot, I like to shoot - not clean. A significant patch will carry enough lube, either spit, oil, or whatever, to clean ALL the fowling in the bore down to the powder charge every time you load, if your ball is .005" to .010" smaller than the bore diameter, all day long. I like simple.
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Thanks guys. I give all credit to Ned Robert's lessons, given so freely and completely in his book "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle". I bought and read the book over
and over from 1972 through 1980 - wherein he states "as the Duchman says, Ven you loads der next vun, you cleans der last vun". He also stated that you should be
able to shoot all day without having to wipe or clean the bore at any time.
I took Ned at his word, and experimented, with dear friend Les Hawk's help, and it still took a couple years of experimentation, back in the early 70's, but accomplish
that we did and are most happy to share what we've learned. I fully realize many people do not want to get 'that' involved with the intricacies of the game, however for
those who do, we are most happy to help in any way we can.
It is very rewarding to hear from our new friends who have tried and found the methods do indeed work & have found new joy in shooting these remarkable guns.
Thanks again.
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I tried Daryl’s wet patch about a year ago and now use it all the time. Retired, it may be that you are only using half of Daryl’s formula, the other is a tight ball and patch combination. I use a .395 ball and denim that measures .024 in my .40 Douglas barrel and a .355 w the same patch in a .36 GM barrel. Yes it has to be popped in with the nubbin on a short starter but then I can use a rod to finish loading.
Oh and wet patch not damp but not dripping.
Good luck
TC
PS Hunting deer or other big game I use ToW mink oil.
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Thanks guys. I give all credit to Ned Robert's lessons, given so freely and completely in his book "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle". I bought and read the book over
...
I got my best learning from your sharing of your experiences big D. Then by applying "your" techniques.
and I pitched Fadala's book into the woodstove... :o sorry Sam.
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I've been doing that for a good while and indeed it does work as advertised.
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I like this idea. What is a good mix for patch lube (available in BC)?
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Are you using "Moose Milk " for soaking the patch ?
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I like this idea. What is a good mix for patch lube (available in BC)?
Spit. :)
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Absolutely, spit works for target shooting as it works as well as anything else that I've found.
Some guys and gals can muster up enough while some as we age, cannot and must improvise.
Our improvisation was in part, accompanied with a need for our lube to resist freezing, thus we
tended towards Blue Thunder Winter Windshield Washer Fluid, now known here as WWWF.
As when making up a batch of this stuff, a 'batch' (US gallon) usually lasts a year or more, so to
the WWWF, we add 'some' Neetsfoot oil. Due to the oil falling out of suspension, before adding
it to the pre-cut patches, I shake the container (usually form a quart container) then pour the 'lube'
over the patches in the Sucrets tin, or plastic bullet box or plastic candy tin, which I found some where.
Once the patches have soaked up lube completely, I turn the tin on it's side and gently squeeze the
stacks of patches with a finger or thumb and pour the excess lube back into the container. The oil content
for me, is simply to reduce the rate of evapouration and to add a little lube to the mix as is does evapourate
somewhat at Hefley when it's over 100F. It is not always that hot there, but sometimes is.
So - yes - whether WWWF+ oil, or spit, when I or Taylor used to smack the ball into the muzzle with the (we're
more gentle now) flat end of the starter ball, if someone is/was standing close, they might be hit with a bit of slash.
Yes- the patches are wet but only splash if smacked down hard into the muzzle. There is no splash if pushing them
straight into the muzzle with the little stud on the starter, or punching it into the bore with a smack, and the stud
on the ball. 'Accurate' use of the stud will ensure the ball is started straight into the muzzle - with equal pressure
all the way around.
Ball starters with little studs. The antlers are deer and moose.
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I'll give it a try next time I break out the rifle. We're planning on going to Heffley for the black powder spring fling and rendezvous (if it's not on fire in August.) Always learning new stuff
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So.....when loading a shot load.....do you push the first card all the way down on the powder.....or only push it down 6 inches or so....then shot..card..soaked oil fiber wad,and ram it all down at once ?
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Several years ago while at Friendship I was at my usual spot,the 500 yard range.
I watched a man loading a 500 grain bullet and he placed a patch over the muzzle
before pushing the bullet down.I asked him about this and he said it was the John Rigby
method of loading that evaded a rule that said no cleaning between shots in 10 shot
matches.He was not evading anything but it was an interesting way to load and the patch
was withdrawn when he pulled to rod out.This can be used with a round ball as well with
a damp patch.
Bob Roller
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So.....when loading a shot load.....do you push the first card all the way down on the powder.....or only push it down 6 inches or so....then shot..card..soaked oil fiber wad,and ram it all down at once ?
I dump in the powder charge, then shove my OP (lubed) fiber wad into the muzzle & ram it home onto the powder. I then pour shot, then put a single "B" wad into the muzzle and ram that down.
If I was hunting, I would load powder, then 1/8" hard card wad - down onto the powder, then lubed fiber wad, then 1/8" card down onto the fiber wad, then pour shot, then Over Shot wad onto shot. Every time I seat a wad, you can hear air rushing out the vent. Periodically over the years, one should close the frizzen while seating wads to see if you are blowing powder out the vent causing an auto prime - or, if frizzen is open, losing powder out the vent as it is oversize. If you lose powder out the vent, it will not be the same each time and your load varies every time you shoot.
With a rifle, it is loss of accuracy, with a shotgun, you are losing power or pattern or both.
Loading this way - seating each item every time, makes it impossible to short start a load, btw - just had that thought.
The total time loading is likely between 20 & 35 seconds or so.
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That's a little different than the Sky Cheif load...
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I misunderstood the first post and then was left wondering if my initial interpretation might be worth trying. Here goes
What if you ram the lubed and patched ball with a jag that also has a damp patch on it. This way upon loading the wet patch goes down and comes back out thereby softening the fouling but the wet patch doesn't remain in the bore after the rammer is retracted. I may try this this weekend to see if I can save time over swabing and wiping.
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I dought if there will be much fouling for your wet patch to pic up with a lubed patched ball below it.
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I have been shooting for years and never had a problem with crud on the breach plug. The difficulty I have is a crud ring that will not allow me to fully seat the ball after about 5 shots and have to wet patch to dispose of it. I do spit patch sopping wet. I am open to suggestions. Would using a lube prevent this?
I had that trouble to for a short while, found it was caused for me anyway by using mineral oil to coat the bore after cleaning. I now use after water, then dry patches, a good squirt of WD40 or some such dewatering oil, then I wipe it out and run wool mop soaked in sweet oil ( virgin olive oil) lo no more crud ring down near the breech !!
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I misunderstood the first post and then was left wondering if my initial interpretation might be worth trying. Here goes
What if you ram the lubed and patched ball with a jag that also has a damp patch on it. This way upon loading the wet patch goes down and comes back out thereby softening the fouling but the wet patch doesn't remain in the bore after the rammer is retracted. I may try this this weekend to see if I can save time over swabing and wiping.
When I shove a patched ball down the bore, any fouling in the bore is shoved down with it. Were this not the case, there would be a fouling buildup - there is not.
I do not swab or wipe ever - while I am shooting. I go to shoot, not clean my rifle. I clean the gun after all the shooting is done for the day and I've cracked or snapped the cap from a can of beer.
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Well this makes sense too.
My biggest issue so far has been store bought patches which aren't lubed enough to keep things soft enough.
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Can any winter-worthy windshield wiper fluid be used? Also, roughly what ratio of wiper fluid and Neetsfoot oil do you recommend?
I have found that not wiping and using a fairly wet patch (typically, I'm using Ballistol, but I probably don't use enough) I don't have a lot of fouling problems, and none of the misfires caused by pushing fouling down while wiping.
This makes me want to dust off my ideas for a wiping method that pulls fouling out without pushing it down on the breech plug.
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Bones, there are some WWWF's out there that have stuff like Rain-X in them. I don't think I'd use those, but not sure why.
As has been noted here before, we are simply using an alcohol/water mix that has a die in it to make it blue.
I put about 2oz. oil per quart. Shake the $#*! out of it, them pour it over my pre-cuts.
I do not use store bought patches. I find them to be .003" to .004" thinner than advertised, thus .018" are .015" by my measurement.
These, with a .005" undersized ball shoot quite cleanly (no wiping) however they are too thin for my rifles to shoot well, so I
purchase cloth and cut my own.
Methods for cutting patches: Arch Punches or Bearing races and large Ball Bearings. A sharpened hole saw in a drill press as well, but be sure
to have a system for holding the cloth. Loose cloth will be grabbed by the spinning tool and break your finger or arm.
Patches can also be cut square from srtips of cloth.
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"My biggest issue so far has been store bought patches which aren't lubed enough to keep things soft enough."
My biggest issue with store bought pre-lubed patches is that they regularly blow apart. Either cheap, loose-weave cloth or the lube breaks down the patches with time. Or both. I have a bag full of useless patches I tried. Yeech.
I found that the plain heavy "canvas" from The Minute-Men suits me very well. Never burns through, and you cannot see sunlight through the weave. Great stuff. Not cheap, but it doesn't work "cheap" either! You get what you pay for. I would stay away from their Teflon, but that is just based on my experiences. Others may disagree.
If I am at the range, the wet-lube Hoppe's BlackPowder works great. A little slipperier than Lehigh Valley in my rifle. For hunting or times when it will be loaded longer, I would use Mink Oil from TOTW as it will not soak the powder over time and corrupt it.
Thank you again Daryl for what you have shared with us over the years. You rock!
Hope this helps someone. Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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Well this makes sense too.
My biggest issue so far has been store bought patches which aren't lubed enough to keep things soft enough.
I would melt more lube into store-bought patches before use.
Eventually got tired of wasting money - bought pillow ticking, cut and lubed my own. For the price paid for a couple packages of patches, I bought enough material to make hundreds of patches and still have most of it left....
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Darryl,
never thought of using a ball race and a large ball bearing to cut patches. Do you strike the ball with a copper hammer or some other such safe one?
Cheers
Gordon
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I haven't had any burn through with anything I have used but with a .590 ball my rifle prefers a .015 patch. They seem to shoot the best groups so far. The .018 pillow ticking ones are not a great. It could be a lube issue. I'll probably soak them in my bees wax, coconut oil lube that I have had a lot of luck either lately. I melt the stuff down and pour it over a stack of patches in a bowl until they are submerged. Once bubbles stop coming out they are saturated. Yes they are a bit over saturated and leave grease at the muzzle when loading but that doesn't seem to hurt anything. The big deal is the fouling is soft.
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Hi Gordon, there are maybe 4 or 5 of us (up here) who use or have used a ball bearing race and a large ball bearing for cutting patches. I do not know whose idea it was initially - likely a heavy
equipment (CAT) operator back in the 80's came up with it - been around for a long time.
I usually take a 'new to me' race and run the opening against the grinding wheel of my bench grinder. The high speed stone spins the race and sharpens it to remove the rounded inner 'edge'.
I find it lasts just about a year's use before needing a re'sharpening.
Lots of guys don't do that and merely hit the ball bearing a little harder. I set the bearing race on a hard flat surface, as in the large square anvil of an old 6" bench vice I broke removing a rifle
barrel some time back.
The hard surface eliminates any energy absorption & gives a nice clean cut. I use a standard 16 ounce claw hammer on the bearing. It does O damage to the bearing and has NEVER caused any
problems, for any of us, regardless of supposed dangers. Between us, we have cut many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands patches using the bearing races, over the last 40 years.
The only 'trouble' with the bearing race and ball bearing, is cutting only one patch at a time. However, it takes only a few minutes to cut 50 patches, once you get the rhythm going.
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Hi Gordon, there are maybe 4 or 5 of us (up here) who use or have used a ball bearing race and a large ball bearing for cutting patches. I do not know whose idea it was initially - likely a heavy
equipment (CAT) operator back in the 80's came up with it - been around for a long time.
I usually take a 'new to me' race and run the opening against the grinding wheel of my bench grinder. The high speed stone spins the race and sharpens it to remove the rounded inner 'edge'.
I find it lasts just about a year's use before needing a re'sharpening.
Lots of guys don't do that and merely hit the ball bearing a little harder. I set the bearing race on a hard flat surface, as in the large square anvil of an old 6" bench vice I broke removing a rifle
barrel some time back.
The hard surface eliminates any energy absorption & gives a nice clean cut. I use a standard 16 ounce claw hammer on the bearing. It does O damage to the bearing and has NEVER caused any
problems, for any of us, regardless of supposed dangers. Between us, we have cut many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands patches using the bearing races, over the last 40 years.
The only 'trouble' with the bearing race and ball bearing, is cutting only one patch at a time. However, it takes only a few minutes to cut 50 patches, once you get the rhythm going.
Hate to be a burden Daryl... But as I've grown older I have become more of a visual learner. Any chance you have a few pictures to help me get the gist of your instructions?
Or a link to a previous post on the matter?
Mike
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Never mind Daryl... I should've scrolled completely through the thread before asking. Sorry about that.
Mike
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I picked up an 5/8" arch punch at a flea market a while back. I tried cutting a patch with it but the results were less than stellar, the punch could use some touch up. I may keen up the edge and try again.
A 5/8" patch might be a hair big for a .32 rifle, but should be serviceable.
A nickel works fairly well for trace and cut. But that is some kind of a labor and time intensive method.
Mike
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Anyone else ever have issues with fouling swelling up in high humidity over a period of a half hour or so? I noticed that this weekend while shooting. I fired 6 shots and let the gun sit and when I whent to load the 7th a long while later I hit some rough patches of fouling while ramming. After swabbing I was back to normal for the 8th shot. I can fire nearly indflefinately with out swabbing as long ass I don't take a long break.
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After a while, the fouling from the last shot will dry and become crunchy. Loading through that will cause a change in barrel condition and thus likely not as accurate as
if loaded right away after the last shot. Most target shooters, ie: chunk and plank wipe their bores out between shots. There is at least 5 minutes and
or 15 minutes between shots in these events, thus to maintain an even bore condition, they clean between shots. Some guys think it improves their accuracy.
if comparing to loading a crunchy bore, that is quite likely. If loading immediately after shooting, I do not believe the cleaning helps anything - at least that is what
my testing showed.
I tried cleaning between shots in a couple of my rifles over the years & oding accuracy tests comparing the two methods. I did not achieve any better accuracy
than if I shot "dirty", without cleaning. Thus, for me, it seemed a lot of work for no benefit.
I find loading what for me in a dirty bore, is no more difficult that loading a clean one - they load virtually incidentally, unless I am shooting a small bore
like my old .32 or newer .36 with Mink Oil. These load easier after the first shot & for the next 50 or so shots, than the first shot did. This might be due to residual WD40
in the bore and not liking the mink oil. After the first shot, which strikes centre, btw, loading is easier for the next whack of shots. No starter is needed for this little bore using
a .350" ball and .022" patch in the .360" bore. Virtually pure lead tiny balls forms easily into the muzzle with just a bit of pressure from a choked up rod.
Mike - I take it you saw the patch material laying on the race. For cutting patches with an arch punch, it needs to be sharp. If you go to a plastics shop and buy a piece of 2" thick UHMW or HDPE
about 8 or 10" square for a cutting block, you will be much happier with the arch punch. I have been using just such a piece of Poly for a number of years - cut thousands of patches on it. Still
working fine. 5/8" sounds OK for a .32. I was using 7/8" arch punch and they work fine in .32 and now .36. It punches them out at .850" or there abouts. My .32 was re-barreled into a .36 and
those patches still work fine. They are just a tich bigger than a nickle.
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I know that I'd never heard of cutting patches with a ball bearing and a race. In thinking about it I can't visualize how it works. I just do the "low tech" method of cutting a strip of material and then cutting it into squares. I tried the arc punch method without much success.
As for patches, I much prefer mattress ticking over pillow ticking. It compresses to .018" to about .019" or .020". I use it in certain guns/applications. But even better is canvas duck. It compresses to around .022" and it is TOUGH. Fired patches often show little or no sign of having been fired. Many of them are still completely white and reusable. It doesn't burn through or tear although the edges are frayed like all patches.
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I'll give it a try Daryl.
Like I said I bought that punch at a flea market and the edge needs touched up. I figure I can chuck it in my lathe and clean it up.
I bought a leather working kit a few months back. Included was, for lack of a better term, a cutting board. It isn't very big, perhaps 6" x 6", and should serve the purpose for testing.
Thanks for the advice.
Mike
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I know that I'd never heard of cutting patches with a ball bearing and a race. In thinking about it I can't visualize how it works. I just do the "low tech" method of cutting a strip of material and then cutting it into squares. I tried the arc punch method without much success.
As for patches, I much prefer mattress ticking over pillow ticking. It compresses to .018" to about .019" or .020". I use it in certain guns/applications. But even better is canvas duck. It compresses to around .022" and it is TOUGH. Fired patches often show little or no sign of having been fired. Many of them are still completely white and reusable. It doesn't burn through or tear although the edges are frayed like all patches.
I too was having trouble visualizing Daryl's method. But as soon as I saw the pictures he posted, it all came together. Check this out...
https://youtu.be/EwJ3eA4oVn4
Fast and effective.
Mike
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OK, now I see. Where should I look to acquire a race and appropriate ball bearing? Also, All I have is an inexpensive bench drill press; so can this be used to somehow "sharpen" the race?
That is surprisingly fast and easy; plus it makes perfect patches.
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To me, finding all the appropriate pieces is the hard part. Bearings are cheap and widely available but you would have to do a tad bit of homework to find the correct size race... Then find a suitable hardened steel ball.
Sharpening without a lathe might be tough too. Easiest thing might be to hit up your local machine shop.
Mike
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It's chilly, windy, and pouring down rain here. But I just went out and did an experiment in the carport...
I had a 7/8" steel ball rolling around in my tool chest and my 5/8" arch punch. I took a piece of pillow ticking out and played around. I could lay the plow ticking over the ball and put the punch over it and smack it with the hammer and punch out a patch. I was able to punch out 10 or 12 dime-sized patches in a minute or so.
Probably not real good for the arch punch, but it should suffice until I can procure an appropriate sized race.
A few of the patches required more than one tap of the hammer and some are oval shaped. The punch isn't razor sharp... And I may have pulled more across one axis of the material than the other resulting in the oval shape.
I got this ticking from my mother. She worked in a garment factory when I was a boy and always brought home leftover yardage and sewed clothing and other stuff for us. It's heavy American made ticking and mics at .022"... Tough stuff.
Wish the weather would clear off so I could go try out the new patches. Lol
Mike
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A pic of the tools and results...
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Mike
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Just rip & cut square patches. Hundreds can be made in very little time....
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The ball must be larger than the hole, of course. The smaller the ball is in relation to the hole, the larger the patch will turn out due to the curvature of the ball, of course. I hold the ball on both sides, hitting it in the middle - I've yet to hit my finger or thumb when cutting patches, however sooner or later I expect to be distracted when the hammer is coming down and it will be ouch - capitol letters or small letters "ouch".
The arch punches are much faster, of course about any thickness of layers can be cut each time. I usually run 5 to 10 layers. The less layers, the closer together you can get the holes, thus less waste.
The bearing race and ball bearing waste less cloth as you can get the holes very close together.
When making large sizes, the waste between the holds is usually about right for a .32 or .36 rifle patch. Snip, snip, snip with sharp scissors and there ya go, less waste again.
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Just rip & cut square patches. Hundreds can be made in very little time....
👍 That is what I do too,.... and it's worked well for the last 49 years. :)
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Just wanted to share what i have been doing to cut patches using a home brewed cutter. The cutter seen in the pic was made using a large socket picked up for less than a dollar at the local flea market. I selected a socket that would yield a smooth interior after using a boring bar in a lathe to remove the flats for a depth of 5/8ths inch or so. The outer bevel was done using a tool post grinder until a sharp edge resulted. I found that it helped strengthen the edge keeping the exterior bevel/angle fairly steep. I think that the operation could have done with a Dremel tool and a bench grinder if enough care is taken, It does not need to be perfect! I sized the socket to give me a patch size of approximately the size I needed. Hope that this is of some help in providing an alternative approach to the job.
J.B.
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