AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: m1garand_man on April 10, 2018, 04:33:50 PM
-
It turns put that I'm leaving my patches over lubed. I will take a stack of patches and soak them in molten lube until bubbles stop comming out and then gently pull the stack out and set it aside to harden up.
It seems to me that I should be pressing some of that lube put of the stack before letting it cool so they aren't over lubed. My concern is over doing that and making them too dry. How do I know when they are good?
How do you lube your patches?
-
With liquid lube at loading. No solid lubes.
-
I lube when I load using spit. The only time I use Mink oil is when it is below freezing or a hunting situation. If I pre lube at all with the Mink oil, I only lube enough for a days shooting. Usually 20-30 patches. Just rub it on the patch with my fingers until there is a good coating. Never melt the stuff and soak the patches.
-
M1, after soaking your patches, do press as much lube out of them as is possible. You can't make them too dry.
-
I just recently started using my homemade bore cleaning solvent for patch lube. A mix of 40% Murphy's Oil Soap and 60% alcohol.
The stuff works great, with no swabbing between shots and the clean up after a day at the range is a breeze!!
-
I have my best luck soaking the patch with tracks mink oil and bear oil 50/50 and squeeze out the excess. Never wipe between shots with the right patch thickness and the clean up is simple.
-
It turns put that I'm leaving my patches over lubed. I will take a stack of patches and soak them in molten lube until bubbles stop comming out and then gently pull the stack out and set it aside to harden up.
It seems to me that I should be pressing some of that lube put of the stack before letting it cool so they aren't over lubed. My concern is over doing that and making them too dry. How do I know when they are good?
How do you lube your patches?
Stop worrying and shoot. I lube stacks of patches with Bear grease (as you explain above) and make no effort to squeeze out any excess. What is over-lubed and how would anyone know?
-
The only downside of having too much lube might be powder contamination? I know some that prefer very wet, and some that use a more dry technique. My spit patches are very wet but they don't stay in the bore for an extended time. For hunting I use mink oil or my traditional bear oil and beeswax concoction. The lube is rubbed into the patch liberally.
The purpose of lube as I see it is to ease loading and to keep the after-the-shot fouling soft.
Not to mention anything non-muzzle loading, ;) but some black powder shooting disciplines use a relatively thick grease "cookie" between over powder cards. The grease actually creates a "starburst of grease at the muzzle after the shot... Some just use a light smear on the patch. I'd say use what works for you personally in regards to accuracy and satisfactory fouling control.
K
-
I must disagree with the poster who says you can't get them too dry. It is my opinion that you cannot get them too wet. My liquid lubed patches are dripping when I put them on the muzzle. The starter causes liquid to spray when I strike the ball to start it. Greased patches too are saturated and thick with lube. Much of it stays at the muzzle when I start a ball, and coats the bore all the way to the charge. Different strokes...
-
For lubing patches it's mink oil and Hoppes #9 BP Lube. I also tend to use a lot of lube with both. When the prb is started at the muzzle enough lube is squeezed out that I normally wipe off the excess which collects on the muzzle crown. I don't melt the mink oil and soak the patches; just wipe them a few times across cake of lube in the tin. With Hoppes I put several patches in an old musket cap tin and dribble the lube over them until they are nice and wet.
-
Stop worrying and shoot. I lube stacks of patches with Bear grease (as you explain above) and make no effort to squeeze out any excess. What is over-lubed and how would anyone know?
This kinda shows too much of a greasy lube.
Powder granules stuck to the bottom of the patch that did not burn with the main charge, but can be lit and burns now.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fm59bUx%2FUnburnt_powder_on_patches_from_too_much_greasy_lube.jpg&hash=47bb2fc84613e600373c0935cb41da2dbb6b4ba6) (http://ibb.co/gLezhH)
-
I like a pretty juicy patch. I mostly use my tallow/beeswax blend and I goober my patches up pretty good.
-
You have too much lube if your patch and ball looks like a wet T-Shirt contest. Seriously. Best description I can think of with a wet lube.
It all depends on the type lube used. With a thicker lube like Mink Oil, Wonder lube or even Crisco, I rub it into the dark side until it just starts to show through to the other side, then put the dark side down.
If using LeHigh valley I spray the patch until it feels wet but not sopping.
Lately I've been working with canola oil. I wet a strip of patching completely then lay another strip of dry patch on top and fold them over to where the wet touches the dry, then put them in a mint container with snap top for a couple of weeks. The oil will migrate to the dry patch (may need a little extra on the dry patch) and both will look translucent but won't feel oily wet to the touch.
I load a canola patch for the first shot, thereafter I spritz a little LeHigh Valley on the strip before loading. I'm doing this for a specific purpose and so far it seems to be working like I want it too.
More work remains to be done with this lube after turkey season.
-
I hunt with patches totally soaked in melted mink oil and not squeezed out. My gun fires after being loaded for weeks. Mink oil will not soak the powder, that is one of it's big advantages.
-
It turns put that I'm leaving my patches over lubed. I will take a stack of patches and soak them in molten lube until bubbles stop comming out and then gently pull the stack out and set it aside to harden up.
It seems to me that I should be pressing some of that lube put of the stack before letting it cool so they aren't over lubed. My concern is over doing that and making them too dry. How do I know when they are good?
How do you lube your patches?
Stop worrying and shoot. I lube stacks of patches with Bear grease (as you explain above) and make no effort to squeeze out any excess. What is over-lubed and how would anyone know?
I think excessive is when you have unburned powder stuck to the bottom of your fired patches which I have been dealing with.
-
Stop worrying and shoot. I lube stacks of patches with Bear grease (as you explain above) and make no effort to squeeze out any excess. What is over-lubed and how would anyone know?
This kinda shows too much of a greasy lube.
Powder granules stuck to the bottom of the patch that did not burn with the main charge, but can be lit and burns now.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fm59bUx%2FUnburnt_powder_on_patches_from_too_much_greasy_lube.jpg&hash=47bb2fc84613e600373c0935cb41da2dbb6b4ba6) (http://ibb.co/gLezhH)
Yep, that is a picture I originally posted of my problem. This thread was meant to be a bit of a restart / segway into a different but relate topic of how best to solve my problem.
-
I like a pretty juicy patch. I mostly use my tallow/beeswax blend and I goober my patches up pretty good.
That's about what I do but with bees wax and coconut oil 50/50 or stright coconut oil. Below 70* both are fairly thick but they load easy and the bore stays fairly clean esspecially with the straight coconut oil
-
I don't see how a few grains of powder sticking to a patch can create a problem worth worrying about.
Someone please help me out here. :-\
-
Bees wax, and coconut oil, IMO you have a patch lube problem. Back in the days of flint, and percussion firearms, target shooters used whale oil on their patches. But, the guys that bet their lives on being able to shoot not only several shots, but shoot them accurately as well, use some form tallow for patch lube. I know nothing about the modern craze of using coconut oil for patch lube, but I do know about bees wax. It doesn’t take very much bees wax to cause problems in patch lube. First off the bat much of the store bought bees wax comes from China, and isn’t all bees wax. We have no purity standards on bees wax, so who knows what’s in it. I used locally produced bees wax that I am quite sure was all bees wax, and even then when more that a very small amount was added,( just to give the tallow/bear oil more body) crusts would form where the ball rested on the powder.
I probably don’t know what I’m talking about, I’ve only been shooting black powder for about forty five years.
Hungry Horse
-
I also have never had very good luck with any combination using bees wax for muzzle loader patches, same as Hungry Horse. But a tallow such as Bear lard/oil and mutton lard or deer lard and tracks mink oil has always worked in any weather or temps.
-
I also have never had very good luck with any combination using bees wax for muzzle loader patches, same as Hungry Horse. But a tallow such as Bear lard/oil and mutton lard or deer lard and tracks mink oil has always worked in any weather or temps.
This thread is at risk of getting into another "what's your favorite patch lube" thread and away from the original question posted. But like Smylee Grouch, I've tried Track's Mink Oil in temperature's from below freezing to the upper 90's and though it changes from a solid at the lower end to a semi-liquid at the higher end of that range, it always performs well for me and is my only hunting lube. I use a liquid patch lube for nearly all target work but that's just my preference. I've never tried bear oil or a lard, but I may do that some day.
Like Hungry Horse and Smylee Grouch, I've never been impressed with a patch lube containing bee's wax. I've never used it with much success except as an ingredient in a lube for conical bullets in my Civil War era rifle musket. But others may have a different experience with it.
Mole Eyes
-
Bees wax, and coconut oil, IMO you have a patch lube problem. Back in the days of flint, and percussion firearms, target shooters used whale oil on their patches. But, the guys that bet their lives on being able to shoot not only several shots, but shoot them accurately as well, use some form tallow for patch lube. I know nothing about the modern craze of using coconut oil for patch lube, but I do know about bees wax. It doesn’t take very much bees wax to cause problems in patch lube. First off the bat much of the store bought bees wax comes from China, and isn’t all bees wax. We have no purity standards on bees wax, so who knows what’s in it. I used locally produced bees wax that I am quite sure was all bees wax, and even then when more that a very small amount was added,( just to give the tallow/bear oil more body) crusts would form where the ball rested on the powder.
I probably don’t know what I’m talking about, I’ve only been shooting black powder for about forty five years.
Hungry Horse
Synthetic whale oil can be found here,..... https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/2663/product_name/LA0101+Dixie+Gun+Works+Synthetic+Sperm+Whale+Oil
-
I don't see how a few grains of powder sticking to a patch can create a problem worth worrying about.
Someone please help me out here. :-\
I'm with you on this.
If the ball goes where I point it, so what if a few grains of powder remain....?
-
The problem m1garand_man was having, was not only the excess lube, but fliers caused by his burnt/cut patches - which were too thin combined with a grossly undersized a ball,
in my opinion.
As with Smylee and others, I use either Track's mink oil, or Neetsfoot Oil straight-up for hunting. I have some nice clear Bear Oil as well as a small quantity of bear grease that I
might test, then use in the future.
I have used marmot oil, but they are protected species now. The bear grease I used back in the 70's worked very well as a hunting lube, but was even better in pie crusts- so light
and flakey.
In my opinion, beeswax is VERY useful if you make your own bullet lube for BL ctg. shooting - or for shooting slugs in a ML. It is not a patch lube nor is it needed as a patch lube as
far as I am concerned. I bought 25 pounds of 1st run wax from a bee keeper in Minnesota back in the 80's or 90's. I still have about 12 pounds left. I saw some outfit on line was selling a
1 ounce block of PURE of BW for $4.95 - I laughed out loud when I saw that. That's $79.20 per pound. The beeswax I have remaining, at that price is worth $950.40 + LOL! Since the
25 pounds I bought, cost me $94.00 delivered to me by the bee keeper on their way to Alaska, that would be a good markup.
Any buyers - make you a deal - only $500.00!
-
An over powder wad of some sort will help protect those patches. I use them fairly frequently and most always in the bush. Best fix is a good balance of ball size, patch thickness and a good lube.
-
I don't see how a few grains of powder sticking to a patch can create a problem worth worrying about.
Someone please help me out here. :-\
I'm with you on this.
If the ball goes where I point it, so what if a few grains of powder remain....?
Because mine dont always. I have been dealing with a lot of fliers and not able to explain why until now.
-
An over powder wad of some sort will help protect those patches. I use them fairly frequently and most always in the bush. Best fix is a good balance of ball size, patch thickness and a good lube.
I agree!
-
In my opinion, beeswax is VERY useful if you make your own bullet lube for BL ctg. shooting - or for shooting slugs in a ML. It is not a patch lube nor is it needed as a patch lube as
I dunno. I cut my tallow with a small amount of beeswax to keep my lube from melting and running out of the tin in hot weather. Deer season starts here in August, and it can easily be over 100 degrees. Once the weather turns cold, and "cold" being relative, as daytime temps here in winter are rarely less than the mid-40's, I'll cut my tallow with a bit of olive oil so my lube isn't a brick. So, for my climate and temps I find a little bit of beeswax useful. It doesn't take much to firm up the lube a bit.
-
I agree a little bit of bees wax can be beneficial, but emphasize the “ little” part of the equation. I also live in Northern California, and understand completely the reason for a stiffening agent in any tallow/bear grease mix. I only urge a little moderation.
Hungry Horse
-
I agree a little bit of bees wax can be beneficial, but emphasize the “ little” part of the equation. I also live in Northern California, and understand completely the reason for a stiffening agent in any tallow/bear grease mix. I only urge a little moderation.
Hungry Horse
It only takes a very few % of wax to keep it from melting in the heat. A little bit goes a long way.
-
I don't see how a few grains of powder sticking to a patch can create a problem worth worrying about.
Someone please help me out here. :-\
I'm with you on this.
If the ball goes where I point it, so what if a few grains of powder remain....?
I'm not so sure that the power contamination issue is the cause of your fliers, but it could be.
Here's a test to see: without changing anything else (too many variables), and in good air (too breezy this day my location), shoot a couple of 5-shot groups at your regular distance-BUT drop a card down on the powder before the prb. Card, paper wasp nest, filler, anything that will surely keep your powder uncontaminated for long enough to launch well-aimed shots.
IF you get a an uncalled flier, then contamination isn't the issue and ye shall have to dig further. If you eliminate fliers, then you've nailed it an might experiment with more traditional lubes and lesser amounts.
I use spit for targets and NFO for hunting, sometimes tallow on a reload. There are as many lube recipes as there are shooters. I like mine as traditional and functional as possible. Enjoy the shooting.
-
I don't see how a few grains of powder sticking to a patch can create a problem worth worrying about.
Someone please help me out here. :-\
I'm with you on this.
If the ball goes where I point it, so what if a few grains of powder remain....?
Because mine dont always. I have been dealing with a lot of fliers and not able to explain why until now.
I'd rather suspect a poor ball-fit combined with maybe too thin of a patch, are the 2 main reasons for your fliers.
What caliber is your rifle?
What size ball are you using?
What does your patch material mic out at?
Have you taken the time to work up the ultimate load for your rifle?
Were you getting fliers while you were doing "load development"?
Usually,.... a good starting point is, a ball .010"-.005" smaller than your rifle's bore diameter, and a tight-weave COTTON patch material that mics .015"-.020", followed by finding a powder charge that gives you the tightest groups.
"LUBE" can most generally be anything that allows you to get the ball down the bore, softens fouling after firing, and doesn't contain petroleum.
I'll even go out an a limb (now) and say,.... that too much lube (without going to ridiculous extremes) will likely cause you less problems, than too little lube. :)
-
I'd rather suspect a poor ball-fit combined with maybe too thin of a patch, are the 2 main reasons for your fliers.
What caliber is your rifle?
What size ball are you using?
What does your patch material mic out at?
Have you taken the time to work up the ultimate load for your rifle?
Were you getting fliers while you were doing "load development"?
Usually,.... a good starting point is, a ball .010"-.005" smaller than your rifle's bore diameter, and a tight-weave COTTON patch material that mics .015"-.020", followed by finding a powder charge that gives you the tightest groups.
"LUBE" can most generally be anything that allows you to get the ball down the bore, softens fouling after firing, and doesn't contain petroleum.
I'll even go out an a limb (now) and say,.... that too much lube (without going to ridiculous extremes) will likely cause you less problems, than too little lube. :)
Well summarized.
-
I think that in the past a poor fit was defiantly one of my contributing factors.
I noticed things started to improve as I whent thicker on the patches.
My rifle is a .50 cal but actually measures .515". It's a seven groove so that's measured from one groove to the land opposite from it. My best luck was with a .495 ball and .018 patches.
Next time I shoot I'll try that against my .490 balls with a .020 patch and the .495 and the .020 patch if I can get it to fit.
The current combo is already getting already little stiff to pop into the muzzle though once it's in there it rams home fairly easily.
As stiff on already in got the rifle I shot a ladder test to find the most accurate load. Between 60 and 80 there was enough dispersion even at 25y that there was no apparent winner so I just stuck with 80gr since it shot point of aim at 100y. Most of my shots will be in the black on at standard small bore target at 100y. But then I'll get the randim in that is barely on the paper or nowhere to be found.
I'll know more after these tests.
-
My rifle is a .50 cal but actually measures .515". It's a seven groove so that's measured from one groove to the land opposite from it.
OK,.... now if you know the depth of the barrel's rifling, simply subtract the one side's remaining depth from .515" and you'll have the barrel's actual "bore size".
Just out of curiosity,.... who made the barrel?
-
Ok, I just figured that with odd number grooved barrels you measured straight across since a land would end up pusing everything to the groove side opposite and this would continue all the way around.
My barrel is a Rice round bottom rifled barrel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkMD1j7%2F20180113_090554.jpg&hash=8422c0be2c3ad6e46d9bbc2671d214c756356750) (http://ibb.co/n1WXrn)
It's kind of hard to see but you can make out some of the grooves on the bottom.
-
It figures the land to groove measurement would be .515" or maybe is it .516" as most Rice rounded rifling is .016" depth, and .500" would be a normal bore size - or maybe .501" with a new reamer.
In the .50 I have, with rounded rifling of .016" depth, I use .495" ball and .022" denim or canvas patch. This combination only 'just' goes to the bottom of the grooves, even though the math shows compression in the bottoms of the grooves.
-
I just checked TOTW and they state Rice barrels specs as,....
"Grooves are cut .016" deep, with round bottom rifling."
So if you subtract .016" from .515" that leaves your barrel's bore size at .499" (that is,... if you measured accurately).
Rice barrels are premium quality barrels, so if Rice says your barrel is a ".50 caliber", I think you can trust that info.
Riflings as deep as .016" will accommodate a bit thicker patch, than another maker's barrel that has .010"-.012" riflings.
I'd certainly think a .495" ball and .020"-.022" patching would be a good combo in your barrel (at least for starters), then eventually try a bit thicker patching just to see if groups will tighten up even more after your barrel shows you what powder charge it likely prefers.
Then start all over again to give the "final tweek" to your load development.
Tight ball-patch combinations have proven,... time after time,... to be the most accurate.
-
I agree 100% with Daryl,.... even though he leaves me a bit embarrassed due to his typing skills and blazing speed. ;D :'(