AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: m1garand_man on May 03, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
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At the risk of asking to many related questions, what should should a person realistically expect a flint lock rifle to be able to shoot for group sizes at 100y?
I'm not taking about the best 3 shot group ever fired but the average accuracy of a 5 - 10 shot string.
As I have said before my rifle will put 10 or more shot into an 8" circle at that distance from a rested position off a bench with the majority of the group being smaller. My concern is missing a deers vitals at that distance in the field, the results of which would be undesirable.
I feel the rifle should do much better but don't know if that is a realistic expectation as 8" is my average group size with 10 or more shots.
I have chased the accuracy dargon before with rifles only to realize that well into my my frustrating venture that what I was trying to achieve was impossible.
I'd like to avoid weeks of frustration again this time around.
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Many IF'S:
If you have a good set of sights
If the light is good
If the wind is light to non-existant
If the target matches the sights and your eyes
If you use a good, sealing load
If the balls are without voids
If you use a previously discovered "accuracy/hunting load"
If you have really good bench technique
I would expect 5 shot groups to have a an average of 2 - 3"- that would be for .45 's and .50's.
If shooting .60's and larger, I would expect 1 1/2" to 2". .54's and .58's similar.
Any more, I likely could not average that without an aperture sight- maybe. Sometimes my old 14 bore girl just shines
and hints at groups of old - 1" to 1 1/2" for 5. Likely average at 1 1/2".
I would say that ignition type is not important, although the faster the ignition, the better the potential accuracy will be.
A good hunting "accuracy" test is a paper pie plate. As long as you can keep your shots on that pie plate, you have deer hunting accuracy.
You could also say, that as long as you can keep your shots on a beach ball, say 24" in diameter, you have moose and likely elk hunting accuracy at THAT range.
I prefer better accuracy than the pie plate and ball analogy provides.
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The variable here is the shooter. How good are his loading technique, eyes, and consistent shooting technique, (breathing, trigger pull etc,,)? The barrel most likely can put them all in one hole at 50 yards, but how consistent is the shooter? I had no problem getting consistent 2-3 inch groups at 50 yards when I had good eyes. I was not alone. Many guys could do 2-3 inches. Just takes practice.
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M1garand_man, Daryl knows a lot more than I do about distance accuracy and I agree with him on his post. All I can offer is to post my experiences at 50-100 yards. At 50 yards I can average 2" to 3" with any of my rifles but certain ones very often get 5 shots into an inch or less. At 100 yards I can most always keep 5 or 10 shots on a paper plate. The very best I've been able to shoot at one hundred yards is 3.5" to 4" with several of my rifles. The shots were taken from various positions including "standing" while using a post for support. I'm not the shot I used to be and my eyes are not that good. A basket ball or paper plate makes a good stand-in for a deer's vital zone at 100yds, IMHO.
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Every rifle/ smoothbore I have shot, built or borrowed can shoot better than I. My realistic expectation for accuracy changes with all the variables that Daryl mentioned and how well I get to them.
And then there is luck.
Kevin
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I'd be thrilled with 8" group at 100 yards.
I have only kilt one deer past 100 yards. All my others were kilt at 50 yards or less. You shouldn't ever have to take a poke at 100 yards or past.
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Well if rice barrels shoot as well as the brags I hear about them then this rifle should shoot better.
There must be something wrong with the rifle and how I interface with it. Maybe something isn't fitting right to me and I don't know it, though it feels comfortable. Maybe the sights need to be replaced again with something else. The last time I did sight work I got a brass shark fin type front sight that I blacken in and I widened the rear sight notch. This improved things greatly.
I wish I knew someone could coach me where I live. I'm generally a good shot. I wouldn't be asking these questions if I wasn't stumped. I do appreciate everyone's help, I just need to meet someone I person who knows a lot more than me about these things.
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I'll add to Daryl's reply,
There can be no glare on the sights.
Your eyes must be good enough to see definition between the sights and target at 100 yards.
Your rifle, loading technique and chosen load must be consistent every single shot.
My locks are tuned and polished for maximum speed and consistency.
Here is the tough part, the shooter must be capable of shooting small groups with a flintlock rifle. Tiny groups with a percussion or CF don't count. The flintlock will bring you back to earth because shooting a flintlock is a learned process and entails more than other rifle types.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm only mentioning this for your own good and have been through the learning curve myself. You mentioned earlier that your new to Flintlocks, so right off I don't think your ready to shoot your best groups with a flintlock.
So far you have attributed your accuracy problems to humidity, patches, lubes, shooting with the RR in or out, etc. But not once have you taken into consideration the shooter might have a lot to do with your problems. You have to really learn to concentrate, more than you think is necessary, and to follow through. For example: I don't even see the smoke I'm so focused on the front sight, and when the smoke clears my front sight is still on the target. It takes A LOT of practice to get here.
You still have the flinchlock flinch to some degree. Even just a small amount will open up those groups. To shoot your best you gotta beat the flinch.
I have no doubt you and your rifle are capable of those little groups your after, and I know it can be an obsession. Because I have it too. Regardless of the weapon I can't be satisfied until I get it shooting those tiny groups. I don't shoot at 100 yards with a ML much anymore but I did when I was much younger. In the mid 70's and 80's all I had was a .54 Renegade with a 26" barrel and it consistently shot 3" groups off the bench at 100 yards. I won a lot of matches with that rifle.
The last (only) time I shot my .40 flint at 100 yards I had a bad glare on the rear sight yet it still turned in 3 to 3.5" groups.
My advice to you is keep practising, a quality shot each time. Analyze both you and the load and rifle to find the root of the problem, then work on it until it's fixed. You are building both muscle and mental memory and that doesn't come overnight.
I work out my accuracy loads at 25 yards to find the most accurate several days in a row, then I move back to 50 and do it again. The best one's I would test at 100 yards.
I am attaching a photo of a sighting in group shot last fall with my .54 Haines, this rifle will do this consistently. If not then it's my fault not the rifles. You decide if a Flintlock rifle can be accurate.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iu42B7/CCI06272017_0002_657x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d1rSdn)
how do i delete (https://deleteacc.com/c)
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What is your load? Have you developed an accurate load? Move in to 50yds. and see what it will do. If it it will shoot tight groups at 50, then 100yd. groups should be slightly larger plus an allowance for your sighting error. You could also tape a scope to the rifle and see what it will do, but bench groups aren't offhand hunting groups. Look at the 100yd. scores shot at Friendship for a reference. They use a 100yd. target with a 6" eight ring, and the good shooters will shoot in the 40s with an X or two offhand.
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M1,
Where are you located? Perhaps an ALR member is close and can do some coaching.
Mark
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Are you shooting off of sand bags? Do you leave the ramrod in when sighting in you gun and how do you hold it on the rest. Make sure you are not canting the rifle when working up loads. Do you rest the gun on the bags or do you have your hand between gun and rest? This is all included in the good bench technique. It might sound like too much to keep track of but it will be worth it in better groups if you do.
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Daryl covers it pretty good,I will tell you this,you pick these things up but a couple times a year your accuracy will suffer.These things aint like a modern one,scope,lot more forgiving.With lots of shooting your technique,muscle memory,especially true for flintlocks, should go a long way.Hows your rear sight,to be honest if I was going to do a lot of my shooting at 100 yrds or more,I would knock the one of the rifle I just built and make another.I would close up the notch,thinking about it anyways.I have no problem out to a hundred yards,groups are good and know its only going to get better when we get to know one another better.I also know if the notch was closed up abit it would help but IMHO,atleast for me my kills will be closer than that,dont take that shot till you know you can do it over and over.
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Hunting can be a bit different than target shooting. Generally. The first shot out of a squeaky clean barrel will give a velocity lower than rounds fired out of a barrel after several shots have been fired even though you swabbed the bore between shots. I used to document that using a chronograph when testing various powders. So when you sight in for hunting watch to see if your first shot is a bit lower on the target compared to subsequent shots. To get the same point of impact you may need a little more powder on that first hunting shot compared to what you saw in a string of shots in target shooting.
Bill K.
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M1,
Where are you located? Perhaps an ALR member is close and can do some coaching.
Mark
I live in central Texas near Ft Hood.
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Since getting the rifle I have been shooting it nearly weekly for almost three months now. I'd do more but work prevents that. I'll typically shoot 40 or more rounds in a session, basically I shoot until my powder flask is empty.
I shoot off a rifle rest and always rest the rifle in the same spot between the first two ramrod thimbles. I do also place my support hand on the underside of the fore stock but I let the full weight of the rifle lay on the rifle rest. I ensure my shooting hand and cheek end up on the same place on the stock every time. Finally I put all of my mental focus on the sight picture to take my mind off the trigger. I learned that technique while learning how to shoot modern big bore revolvers at extended distances. I have a SW 460 that will far out shoot the flint lock on the same range trips and at 100y but that's another story for another forum.
I guess I just a bit of patience, and a few more boxes of bullets down range.
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I see you have a Rice barrel? Speaking from experience my Rice needed about 2 hundred shots down the tube before it began to shoot consistent accurate shots. About the same time it started to load easier too. I know what Rice claims but it didn't work out that way for my Rice, yours may differ.
I shoot off a front rest also and never rest my hand beneath the gun. My front rest has a hard faced cloth for the forend to set on. I rest it just behind the entry thimble. Between the thimbles also works, the important thing is the rifle must free recoil without a thimble touching the rest. We are maybe the only 2 shooters here who rest the forend directly on the rest, most of the others place the forend on their hand. Works for them. My way works for me.
If you keep shooting like your saying then you are on the right track to reach your goals. Sounds like you have good fundamentals.
Do you have a set trigger or single trigger? What is your trigger pull weight?
Do you ever have hangfires?
Practice is the key and it sounds like your getting plenty. I'm 65 and still shoot a lot. I have my own range so it's easy for me to grab a rifle and go shoot a little.
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There are times I will rest the rifle's forend on the bag - that is a rabbit ear sand bag on the adjustable rest.
This technique usually gives slightly better groups - usually.
When I do this, I rest the forend behind the entry pipe - no matter what gun I am shooting. I have tested
1/2 a dozen different rifles and none of them shot as well, if tested out on the rod, or on the pipes or at the muzzle.
They have all shot best when rested just barely behind the entry pipe, exactly where I hold the rifle if resting in my hand on the bag.
I shoot out of my hand, as my rifles seem to shoot exactly the same offhand, as when I sight them in, holding in my hand, with my hand on the bag.
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I see you have a Rice barrel? Speaking from experience my Rice needed about 2 hundred shots down the tube before it began to shoot consistent accurate shots. About the same time it started to load easier too. I know what Rice claims but it didn't work out that way for my Rice, yours may differ.
I shoot off a front rest also and never rest my hand beneath the gun. My front rest has a hard faced cloth for the forend to set on. I rest it just behind the entry thimble. Between the thimbles also works, the important thing is the rifle must free recoil without a thimble touching the rest. We are maybe the only 2 shooters here who rest the forend directly on the rest, most of the others place the forend on their hand. Works for them. My way works for me.
If you keep shooting like your saying then you are on the right track to reach your goals. Sounds like you have good fundamentals.
Do you have a set trigger or single trigger? What is your trigger pull weight?
Do you ever have hangfires?
Practice is the key and it sounds like your getting plenty. I'm 65 and still shoot a lot. I have my own range so it's easy for me to grab a rifle and go shoot a little.
I have played around with front resting but not much for 2 reasons. 1 I can't get far enough back from the bench and still have a place for my elbow and 2 in the deer stand I won't be able to do it either. It will be hard enough to get the rifle through the gun port with out bumping and wall. Spot and stalk isn't allowed where I hunt due to the large number of hunters on Ft hood.
The only time I get hang fires is when I have a dull flint. When I have a sharp one it doesn't matter the position of the powder in my chambers early colonial lock pan, the thing just works. I did find that with chert (which seems to be a fair deal harder than English flint) that I get faster ignition because it keeps a straight edge longer and maintains better contact with the frizzen which means more sparks in the pan.
I'm not sure who made the trigger but it is a standard trigger that has minimal creep and a crisp 3.5 pound break. I love this trigger by the way. It's definally a welcome surprise for someone whose total muzzle loader experience up this this point was with military muskets of which I own two.
I'll keep plugging away at this and maybe I'll get to a point down the road where the rifle and I are shooting well.
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Slight diversion, but in the interest of accuracy testing and getting more data from less shooting, I have often thought of hanging multiple targets at different ranges such that the ball punches each.
I figure a sheet of paper shouldn't have a profound affect on ball flight, and it would be rather easy to test by adding/subtracting targets and noting trajectory (speed/TOF) changes.
This also could give the tester an observed trajectory table with no theory or calculations involved. Shoot and see.
Maybe someone has tried this? I figure the nearest target helps the aging eyes punch the farthest target as a pass-through sighter eh? Also, with a trajectory table, one could calculated his avg. velocities, if so inclined.
I simply haven't had time or resources to get out and shoot a bunch like I like to. But that's a changin'. The new shop location will have a deck with railing and targets upon yon' hillside (which isn't as far as it sounds).
Happy shootin' and stack 'em in there!
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Wade - this method is noted in Forsyth's book to test the trajectory of large bore rifles. Of course, it would work with about any decent sized bore.
Seems to me, he used surveyor's equipment to get the horizontal lines of his targets square with his aiming point.
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I have definitely encountered this technique. I also belive the army did the same thing to get multiple down range velocity readings off single rounds of ammunition during ballistics testing before the advent of doppler radar chronogaphing. Going as far back as the turn of the last century iirc there were chronographs that used a series fine copper mesh screens spaced in close pairs so a bullet would make and electrical contact as it passed through and to start a clock and then a second pair to stop it. Once a trajectory was known you could have multiple sets of these down range.
I'm pulling this from recollection of something read years ago so I may have my wirewires a bit crossed. But I digress.
Doing the test you describe would be an entertaining and educational experiment. You could also see how the group opens up as well this way to get even more real world data.
I wish I had also range close enough and cheap enough to shoot a slot during my lunch breaks like when I was stationed in alaska. I was so spoiled. Load development took a week at most that way.
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Back to what sort of accuracy to expect: a new club member bought a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. Out of the box he was getting 2” groups at 50 yards without tinkering with patches, lube, charge, or ball size. I was impressed with him and the gun.
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I believe the biggest variable here is the sights... many rifles have sights that will get you into the black at 100 yards, but you need the right sight (with the right clarity of eyesight!) to consistently form the same sight picture over and over, and a precise sight picture, at that, in order to shoot 2"-3" groups.
I myself prefer a really thin front sight blade. I feel like I can form a much more precise sight picture than a thicker sight blade. For me, it is like poking the bull with a needle vs a 2x4. A very thin front sight blade may only cover 10% of a bullseye's width at 100 yards, whereas a thicker blade will cover 50-80% of the width. So I can point to a much more specific spot on the bull with a thin blade, as long as I consistently align it with the rear sight.
Beyond that, I find that shooting off a rest makes a LOT of difference in my flintlock shooting. But I generally practice shooting off-hand because that's what our club competitions require.
Otherwise, it is as Daryl says... consistency in all the little things. I think good sights and good form will give you good groups, though changing temperature, humidity and light conditions may move the group.
Lastly, I would probably avoid deer shots over 50 yards unless you can reliably put them into about 5" circles. There is also something to be said for the loss of killing power in a round ball at 100 yards vs 50.
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Back to what sort of accuracy to expect: a new club member bought a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. Out of the box he was getting 2” groups at 50 yards without tinkering with patches, lube, charge, or ball size. I was impressed with him and the gun.
Rich, you're making me want to drag my GPR .54 out to the range. Never fired it yet, but I'm itching to...
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I agree 100% with Daryl that you will not get maximum accuracy from your rifle by resting the gun on the rest out beyond the entry pipe as you are doing. I always have my hand between the gun and the rest; the rifle (or smoothbore) is in my hands at all times, just as it would be firing offhand or from field expedient rests while hunting. If you can't do this at your range or blind, you need to make adjustments to your setups until you can.
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How do chunk guns get great accuracy resting out front?
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I found a “sweet spot” on my 54” barreled chunk gun, about 7” back from the muzzle. A second “sweet spot” is just forward of the entry thimble, and groups as well, but is harder to hold still because it is the balance point.
My new table rifle also likes to rest about 4” back from the Muzzle.
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Why didn't they put rear sights closer to the breech in the 1700's? It seems this would help a lot.
Also, I'll shoot off the forestock behind the entry pipe next range trip, which because of prior commitments won't be for two more weeks. :-[
I have looked at ballistics at 100y. They are fairly dismal. Therefore accuracy to ensure excellent shot place mentioned is key. Even this newby knows that.
Finally the thing I'd have difficulty doing in the stand is doing a muzzle rest. I know that was how a lot of shooting was done back in the day, esspecially when shooting prone.
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Keep your shots at ranges that you are confident you can make a perfect shot.
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It is great to know what your rifle can do at the range off the bench at a 100 yards. However all that goes out the window when in a hunting situation. If you are hunting spot and stalk. You maybe a few miles from where you spotted an animal to where you actually get a shot. Adrenalin, physical conditioning. light ,temperature elevation etc. might be radically different than what you have practiced. You have to adjust accordingly. Get as possible to the game.
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It is great to know what your rifle can do at the range off the bench at a 100 yards. However all that goes out the window when in a hunting situation. If you are hunting spot and stalk. You maybe a few miles from where you spotted an animal to where you actually get a shot. Adrenalin, physical conditioning. light ,temperature elevation etc. might be radically different than what you have practiced. You have to adjust accordingly. Get as possible to the game.
True but you are certainly more apt to hit what you are aiming at with a 2 MOA rifle than with a 6 MOA rifle.
Dennis
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Yes Dennis. Too many times, I've heard guys say, "that's good enough for hunting!" In my opinion, only the very most accurate load and rifle is adequate for hunting. The hunter will introduce enough detractants without having to start with an inadequate load and/or rifle.
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How do chunk guns get great accuracy resting out front?
okawbow - noted this in his post. You can change wave and/or vibration 'accuracy nodes' by changing powder charges and patch material.
If you want to rest your gun on it's nose, you can develop a load that makes it shoot best there.
I rest my guns as I hold them when shooting as most of my shooting is offhand, I rest the back of my holding hand on the bag. I find this shoots
OK for me. I developed my loads with this holding method.
I tried, with the .40, .45 and .32, resting the gun on the bag out near the muzzle and found a sweet spot for the .45 GM barrel at the 2nd entry pipe(from the muzzle.
My .40 did not like resting out there with my 'accuracy' load so I never tested it there again.
The little .32 didn't seem to care how it was rested. I was distressed, though with it's inferior overall accuracy as I could not shoot tighter than an inch or 1 1/2" at 50yards with
the .32, rested in any position, when my other two rifles were giving me 1/2" to 3/4".
Now, it appears that 1" to 1 1/2" is the best I can do at 50yards with open sights. The testing on Friday with the re-worked .60 Hawken proved that.
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LOL,Taylor,I have heard that very thing and more than once."Good enough for hunting",and after seeing the target,really?maybe if the vitals was beachball sized.Quess some folks good enough is different than others I suppose.Respect for the animal,sport,pride should kick in somewhere here...... ???
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The two top shots were when I was finding out just how much of the front sight not to hold shooting 100 yards with my Tom Watson .50 flintlock. After a slight adjustment they went where intended and it does this quite often for me. The 10 ring is 2" diameter.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5455/30155676365_91bd005e68.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MWKHYz)100yd (https://flic.kr/p/MWKHYz) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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The sights on longrifles are, well, primitive. That's a disadvantage right then and there. Like many here on the forum, eyesight is the real problem and primitive sights only compound the problem. I know, however, that I can kill a deer at 100+ yards because I have done it more than once. But I still try to get much closer than that. I can consistently get only maybe 5 shots on a paper plate at 100 yds with rare excursions into the 3"-4" territory. So that represents a maximum distance for me and one I rarely ever encounter. The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.
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There is hope for aging eyes. You can buy a Merit Disc and attach it to your glasses or get a Knobloch setup. Either one when adjusted properly lets you see the front and rear sights plus the target clearly.
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The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.
Ab resolutely Hanshi- spot-on. I will add, perhaps without solid justification, that we, as we age should test ourselves more often than we currently do. A 9" pie plate FROM hunting positions, not bench, might be the arbitrate!
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The sights on longrifles are, well, primitive. That's a disadvantage right then and there. Like many here on the forum, eyesight is the real problem and primitive sights only compound the problem. I know, however, that I can kill a deer at 100+ yards because I have done it more than once. But I still try to get much closer than that. I can consistently get only maybe 5 shots on a paper plate at 100 yds with rare excursions into the 3"-4" territory. So that represents a maximum distance for me and one I rarely ever encounter. The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.
There was an original longrifle in the Dixon collection that was both interesting and funny. You could see where the owner had moved the rear sight forward on the barrel twice. Little plates filling in the vacated slots.
Bill K.
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I agree that you want the utmost accuracy in a rifle for hunting. But you can beat yourself trying to shoot 2" groups at a 100 yds. My hunting rifles I sight in at 50 yds. off of cross sticks. after I can shoot a cloverleaf at 50yds, do I bother to see what it will do at a hundred. Using a target that you I can see at a hundred. Usually a 7 ring black.
My hunting rifles have open Iron sights and I use patched round ball.
My 54 Hawken can shoot 4 inch groups at a 100 yds, off of cross sticks. Can I do that every time? It depends on a lot of variables. Where I live wind is the biggest factor. Not just the strength of the wind but its variability. Am I not going to go hunting because I can't always shoot a 4" group at a 100 yds? Nonsense.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dJzSzS/P1010005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jh4ueS)
85 yds offhand heartshot
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What is that wild beast?
I mean the one holding the Hawken!
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Alacran I,m straning my feeble eyes and do I see a tire track on the shoulder. I know the beast was taken some where in the west but here in the east squirrel hunting can be very dangerous as they are NUT collectors. Pucker up and go for it. Good shooting and nice elk.
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Alacran,I don't think anybody's telling folks to not go hunting because they can't put decent groups together at a hundred yards.Its more of a case of knowing ones limitations.I passed up shots for one reason or another,rather not take a chance wounding game and not being able to recover it.On the flip side,just because you can put good groups together at a hundred yards from a bench give you a green light to do it afield.
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Handicapping oneself isn't the answer, of course. Here in the SE I'd estimate my average shot at around 20 to 30 yards max. The long shot kills I've made were in a hay field and I was sitting in a chair with a big round hay bale for a rest. I don't take offhand shots nor do I take long shots unless the above conditions are available. It's just too easy to drop into a kneeling position or use a tree for support.
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As usual I shot again this weekend but tried some new things. First of all I rested off the rifle behind the entry pipe, I shot at 25y, I tested different patch thicknesses and powder charges again, and the most significant thing for me, I tried out some 1.5f Swiss I just bought.
I will say the Swiss measures much more consistently than the Olde Eynesford. With OE if I threw my charges from my measure on the scale they varied by as much as 2gr plus or minus! The Swiss would vary by .1 at most.
I will say it takes a little longer to clean Swiss out of my barrel but that wasn't a significant issue for me.
I tried 9 different combos of ball, patch and charge. I found that 60gr of 1.5f Swiss, .495 ball and .020 patch shoot best. A 70gr charge isn't bad but at 80gr things start opening up. Also no matter what was going on anything tried with 2f OE performed worse than the same test with Swiss. So I guess the OE will end up sitting around now as a fall back.
My best grout came with 60gr 1.5f Swiss .495 ball and .020 patch. At 25y it was a 1" group with the best 4 out of 5 in that group. I pulled one to the left.
80gr of OE with the same ball and patch was twice as large, 60gr of OE wasn't much better. The most telling part was the vertical stringing which indicates to me that there were velocity inconsistencies.
Ill have to attach photos later because I'm having problems right now doing it.
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I have passed up lots of closer shots than the one on that elk for a variety of reasons. Too much brush bad angle too much glare on my sights. Typically I take a knee if conditions allow me to see the animal. Sometimes an offhand shot at an unsuspecting animal is the best shot to take.
I spend hours glassing and walking, and miles of tracking.
So I wear a large day pack with lots of water, food and miscellaneous. It only weighs 17 lbs. when full of water. I do practice from time to time with my pack on. It is important to know how it will affect the way the rifle fits when wearing it. Most of my shots at elk have been under 50 yds.
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m1garand_man - For me, it is quite difficult to tell what is going on at 25 yards. I find shooting at 40 or 50 yards is much better.
Something I tried with my smoothbore, was mounting a new rear sight from Track, onto the top barrel flat. Thin CA sticks it there quite well, and a bump with
the short starter ball, knocked it off when I wanted to remove it. Using a knife blade as a chisel or more accurately, a draw knife, removed the thin skin of hardened glue
without damaging the surface of the barrel.
The reason I bring this up, is a peep sight or rear aperture made from a small piece of bent 1/16" thick steel could easily be 'glued' to the breech end of the barrel or top
fore part of the tang, just behind the plug.
This would give a clearer, more accurate sight picture.
I intend to do this when I finally get around to testing out my 'new' .50 rifle on paper.
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At this stage of my life it doesn't make much difference....as long as we're having fun!! ;D ;D
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My $0.02
Regardless of what a weapons capable of or the load chain, IMO it all starts with a shooter knowing of and using good bench technique. Observing shooters on the bench at my range over the years many fail at having the ability to reasonably extract the guns capability. Anybody who has any doubts about that process, maybe it's time to reaffirm what you think you know regarding bench technique?
I think a shot sequence in an intelligent path. Put together the 1, 2, 3, 4's...before letting the shot go. I use one every day in archery practice and believe me it makes a difference. Once the human errors are minimized then you can effect mechanical changes for the better.
Couple of my favorite basics:
Setup as low to the bench as reasonable.
Get off the gun! Get behind it not on it.
Bag the toe of the stock and squeeze the bag to get height needed.
When you know your sights are perfectly on target close your eyes for a moment then come back to your sights to see if they retained perfect placement. If so your set up is good.
Final check to ensure the gun isn't canted. Front sight straight up and down
Get in FRONT of the trigger and pull STRAIGHT back.
Reading this thread, I feel my post is preaching to the choir, I decern a lot of experienced good shooters. Just wanted to try to add my thoughts on a topic that is near and dear to me. Respectfully, tim
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Its pretty easy to get a good group at 100 yards from a rest when shooting at an orange or white bull but a deer's vitals don't have that bright spot on them. Once you get it sighted in try shooting at a full size deer target, placed in a the woods,, make it a real hunting situation, rest on a tree, shoot from a stand, do twenty jumping jacks, pick up your gun and shoot,,,, A deer at 100 yards looks pretty small sitting on top of your front sight!!!!...Ed
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M1,
Where are you located? Perhaps an ALR member is close and can do some coaching.
Mark
I live in central Texas near Ft Hood.
I'm in the same area, I sent you a PM
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My $0.02
Regardless of what a weapons capable of or the load chain, IMO it all starts with a shooter knowing of and using good bench technique. Observing shooters on the bench at my range over the years many fail at having the ability to reasonably extract the guns capability. Anybody who has any doubts about that process, maybe it's time to reaffirm what you think you know regarding bench technique?
I think a shot sequence in an intelligent path. Put together the 1, 2, 3, 4's...before letting the shot go. I use one every day in archery practice and believe me it makes a difference. Once the human errors are minimized then you can effect mechanical changes for the better.
Couple of my favorite basics:
Setup as low to the bench as reasonable.
Get off the gun! Get behind it not on it.
Bag the toe of the stock and squeeze the bag to get height needed.
When you know your sights are perfectly on target close your eyes for a moment then come back to your sights to see if they retained perfect placement. If so your set up is good.
Final check to ensure the gun isn't canted. Front sight straight up and down
Get in FRONT of the trigger and pull STRAIGHT back.
Reading this thread, I feel my post is preaching to the choir, I decern a lot of experienced good shooters. Just wanted to try to add my thoughts on a topic that is near and dear to me. Respectfully, tim
Allow me to add a thing or two. After I'm bagged in and have my position settled so the sight remains on target, then I shoot once with an unloaded gun to see where the sights end up. If in the same spot I'm good to go, if not, I need more work on my setup.
As I've aged I can no longer shoot well with the open iron sights. I no longer shoot competition and the only thing that matters is how I shoot on live game. By far, the best thing I've done is add a small peep to the tang and made a front sight to match.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kWMNZS/SS850095_1024x768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n4xwuS)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dkvGuS/SS850099_1024x768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f4pbuS)
delete picasa web account (https://deleteacc.com/picasa)
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(https://preview.ibb.co/ckeOb7/20180506_224930.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLuBUS)
My old load I have been having problems with
(https://preview.ibb.co/f9WVOn/20180506_224903.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZP6w7)
Getting better
(https://preview.ibb.co/nAMVOn/20180506_224742.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mdmx3n)
Best so far. I pulled the one on the left.
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Hi grand-man, if it were me I would go to 50 yds. and shoot 10 shot groups. If you find your self with two seemingly different groups you might be doing something on the bench inconsistantly, like canting,looking at the sights different, high sun or sun behind the clouds, griping the gun different from shot to shot or several other variables.
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I will say the Swiss measures much more consistently than the Olde Eynesford. With OE if I threw my charges from my measure on the scale they varied by as much as 2gr plus or minus! The Swiss would vary by .1 at most.
I will say it takes a little longer to clean Swiss out of my barrel but that wasn't a significant issue for me.
I tried 9 different combos of ball, patch and charge. I found that 60gr of 1.5f Swiss, .495 ball and .020 patch shoot best. A 70gr charge isn't bad but at 80gr things start opening up. Also no matter what was going on anything tried with 2f OE performed worse than the same test with Swiss. So I guess the OE will end up sitting around now as a fall back.
My best grout came with 60gr 1.5f Swiss .495 ball and .020 patch. At 25y it was a 1" group with the best 4 out of 5 in that group. I pulled one to the left.
If you were to look at the Swiss powder under a microscope compared to the OE you would see why the Swiss gives more consistent throws out of a volume measure. The Swiss powder is highly polished. This means the grains are really rounded and the grain surfaces are almost glass like. You get better "nesting" of the grains in the measure. For some reason the modern bp manufacturers simply do not understand what grain polish means in the gun. When the grain surfaces are rough and have very angular edges they simply do not "nest" as tightly as they should so you get a greater variation in weight from one throw to another.
I used to look at this another way. I had a 100 cc graduated cylinder cut off right at the 100 cc mark. I would pour the sample powder through a funnel mounted about an inch above the cylinder top. Fill to overflowing. Then level the top with the edge of a spatula. Then gently tap the side of the graduated cylinder with the spatula and watch how much the grains settled/nested. The amount of cc's drop was a percentage of settling. This is simply a standard industry test to look at settling in granular materials. The Swiss always came in at 0% settling to about 2%. Other brands lacking a good polish would sometimes show up to 10% settling.
This is why some shooters swear by weighed charges rather than volume measure. But this has a flip side, so to speak. Those powders showing a high percentage of settling will occupy different volumes of space in the bore when you pour the charge down the barrel. They will give fairly good velocity variations.
The weight versus volume problems with various granulated powders is why in the late 1800's a number of powder manufacturers experimented with ways to make perfectly spherical black powder powder grains of a very uniform size. My buddy in Australia looked into that. I told him the best way would be to train dung beetles because to do it with machinery is nearly impossible.
Bill K.
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I did some digging through my multiple external hard drives. Found my BP CD. I had written a booklet on the Swiss powder plant. A lot of photos of the plant machinery and the resulting powders.
It is in PDF format and is 11,555 KB in size. Can be sent as an e-mail attachment. If you want a copy I would need an e-mail address.
It has microscope photos of the powder grains before and after polishing. The machinery is neat. Water wheel powered.
Bill K.
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M1_grand-man,
Please check your private messages on t his board. Some things that might interest you sine you are clearly military in background.
Bill K.
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I assume these groups are much improved over what you started with? Because I'm seeing some excellent shooting if these are 100 yard groups. These are groups I'd expect to see with optics.
Even at 50 yards a couple of these are still impressive. Human eyesight being what it is a shot or two out of the group is not unusual at all. Especially with a flintlock.
What do you attribute to your improvements.
Before I finally accept a load as one I will use I shoot a 5 shot group from the bench at 50 yards. In a day or two I shoot another 5 shot group into the same target. Sometimes I'll shoot 15 into that target. I want to see all 15 in basically the same group. I don't want to see flyers on different days or see the group grow much larger. By doing this I assure myself that I can expect the rifle to shoot where I want, anytime I want.
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That sounds like a great idea Darkhorse, only one three or five shot group is not enough IMHO.
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I find nowadays, if I aim too long, I throw the shot. I must shoot quickly off the bags, or offhand, for that matter. Taylor noted while
we were testing the Hawken, that when I didn't waist any time shooting, (shooting quickly), the balls were going into the same hole, cutting each other. If I held longer,
I threw that shot out of the group - a 'so called' flyer. The shot actually went exactly where I had the sights pointed. just that it was an imagined centre hold, but was
not. Our eyes will do this to us. I first found out about that back in the 3-postion days. Concentrating too hard and long on the sights would make you think
you were holding 'on' but that perfect hold image was actually imprinted in your mind's eye while the gun was not actually held correctly and had moved off centre. You
just could not see it or realize it happened.
This is simply something to try yourselves. Use what works for you - always. On top of it all, make sure both of your feet are planted flat on the ground or range floor. THIS
is just as important as every other step in good bench technique.
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You can and will,like everything else over think it.You may not realize it but the muscle in your head is always working,trying to do it better,even when your eyes cant.Im with you on this Daryl,you get it squared up,let it fly.About the only time I won't is when I get distracted,be it a sudden wind change,perhaps movement down range(Ours is in the woods and it wouldn't be the first time deer or other critters would walk into the line of fire)
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Those targets look pretty good to me. When I shoot a 5 shot group I'll always (almost) blow it with a flyer. Occasionally, I'll shoot 20-30 round groups and discount the outliers. The poi is pretty well established with this many shots. Three shot groups are usually good to great, but 5 shot groups have me pulling my hair out.
And as Daryl mentioned, quick shooting on targets works just as well on game. I've taken lots of "snap shots" which were anything but. As soon as I lift the gun to my shoulder I'm already "in the zone" and don't miss. This is what I do with running/walking deer. I never attempted it beyond 75 yards, however. Today at the range was both gratifying and frustrating. Light colored targets, white, for example, are much easier to shoot than standard black bullseye targets. I have trouble seeing the sights on a black bullseye.
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Hi grand-man, if it were me I would go to 50 yds. and shoot 10 shot groups. If you find your self with two seemingly different groups you might be doing something on the bench inconsistantly, like canting,looking at the sights different, high sun or sun behind the clouds, griping the gun different from shot to shot or several other variables.
That's all part of the plan, I don't have a place to shoot at 50 since the range I shoot at requires targets stands to be back by the berm. The next time I go I'll be back at 100y armed with my new loads to test in 10 shot groups. If things look good enough I may do a 20 shot group for the heck of it. I've found that after 20 shots in any gun you usually find out that things don't open up much more at any higher round count. In other words all the fliers you might get will be evident.
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I assume these groups are much improved over what you started with? Because I'm seeing some excellent shooting if these are 100 yard groups. These are groups I'd expect to see with optics.
Even at 50 yards a couple of these are still impressive. Human eyesight being what it is a shot or two out of the group is not unusual at all. Especially with a flintlock.
What do you attribute to your improvements.
Before I finally accept a load as one I will use I shoot a 5 shot group from the bench at 50 yards. In a day or two I shoot another 5 shot group into the same target. Sometimes I'll shoot 15 into that target. I want to see all 15 in basically the same group. I don't want to see flyers on different days or see the group grow much larger. By doing this I assure myself that I can expect the rifle to shoot where I want, anytime I want.
They are much improved. By as much as 50% with the Swiss powder than with the Olde Eynesford that I used before. The only thing about it is that these groups were fired at 25y. I decided to do this because I had about a half dozen recommendations from as many people to try it.
I will some times overlay targets that I have shot on different days and experience the same effect as you do with shooting at the same target on different days. The benefit to this is you can add or remove layers (days) at a whim. The down side is you have to look at it over a bright light.
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I'm pretty excited to shoot again at 100y. I'm to the point where I'm considering whether or not to attend the three gun match I had planned on going to so I can shoot this rifle Saturday!
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Mr. M1, have you dry fired at your 100 yrd Target to see how the lock may jolt your aim? I noticed on my lighter 45 rifle that when I dry fired and concentrated on the front sight I could detect movement cause by the frizzen and cock. I don't notice it near as bad with my 50 call but it has a Dale Johnson model lock and weights half again as much as the 45 cal rifle with Italian lock.
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Good point. I've been wondering about that also because I had a problem lock that was pretty bad. If it does this it means your lock is not in balance. Take a trigger pull gauge and see what the poundage is to open your frizzen. Unloaded of course.
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I had not thought about this before. Thank you for the ideas.
I whent and shot again this weekend. At 100y with a .459 .495 ball (dyslexia...) .020 patch and 70gr 1.5f Swiss I got a 4.5" 10 shot group excluding pulled shots. With 80gr I got just at 5" with my best 9 shots out of 10.
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Do you mean .495" ball?
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Dunno what works for the average Joe, but this works for me. 50 yards, offhand. High shot on the left target was the fouler. Days I get to shoot at something longer than 50 yards here in the swamps are as rare as hen's teeth. 20-35 yards is the norm.
.45 caliber PRB shooter...
(https://i.imgur.com/v7TYKMf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dENX2BD.jpg)