AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: VP on May 14, 2018, 04:14:30 PM

Title: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: VP on May 14, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
The Kentucky Rifle Foundation is pleased to announce a new book, "Moravian Gunmaking II - Bethlehem to Christian's Spring" by Robert Lienemann. This book contains thirty years of research, 224 pages, that focus on the Bethlehem and Christian's Spring gunshops from 1750 to 1790. It contains thirteen rifles, a fowler and a pair of pistols form the gunshops which include the Edward Marshall rifle, Shumway's #43, an Oerter from Windsor Castle and two Oerter rifles never published and six related long arms. Robert includes a lot of details of the rifles construction along with sketches and critical dimensions for the gunstockers, collectors and students. I think you will find this to be a great reference and it is a limited edition. The book is now available on the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's website under the Store. You can order online with Paypal, credit card or with a check by mail. The book is $85.00 plus S&H.

VP
(https://preview.ibb.co/gGJHDy/Book_Cover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fFaa0d)

(https://preview.ibb.co/eo5m6J/Book_Backcover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fh5VYy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/bvcNfd/Book_Contents.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eWfKRJ)
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: smart dog on May 14, 2018, 04:21:18 PM
Hi VP,
Thank you for the note.  Bob's scholarship is first class.

dave
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: spgordon on May 14, 2018, 05:18:28 PM
I've got a copy! The images in this book are simply spectacular--and of many rifles that haven't before been seen, including a bunch by Christian Oerter. Also fantastic photos of a pair of pistols produced by William Henry of Nazareth between 1780-1786.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 14, 2018, 06:27:46 PM
Many have worked hard these past few years to gain access to these fine old arms, and we are happy to finally share them with you.  I want to quickly thank many alr.com members and others. 

Mac, Steve, Patrick, Henry and others helped to create and distribute our first book, and begin work on this new project.  Kenneth Orr arranged a whirlwind tour of museums and homes to photograph arms, and he carefully edited all photos and images from a variety of photographers for a consistent presentation.  Ric Lambert and Gordon Barlow provided photography for several pieces, and Wes White, Walt O’Connor and Dorothy Shumway shared their files with us.  Summer Criswell Walter is our very talented designer.  Summer designed several issues of American Tradition for the CLA, and is designer for Museum of the Fur Trade encyclopedias.

Scott Gordon and Eric Kettenburg have contributed much to this effort, along with Ron Gable, Jack Brooks, Earl Lanning, Steve Hench, Alan Gutchess, Patrick Hornberger, Jud Brennan, Brad Emig, Brian LaMaster, and Van Pitman aka VP.  Other KRA and KRF officers and members have lent their support.  We have new friends in England who arranged access to, photographed and reviewed several Oerter rifle that reside there.  And many more who I fail to mention here.  This whole family of contributors hope you enjoy the arms and their history.   
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: JTR on May 14, 2018, 06:39:11 PM
Just bought mine!
Thanks for all the hard work,
John
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: lexington1 on May 14, 2018, 08:11:06 PM
I sent for mine. Can't wait to get it!  ;D
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: rtadams on May 14, 2018, 10:31:35 PM
5-14-18

VP,

Who and what telephone number do I call to obtain a author's signed and dated copy of the lowest numbered limited edition? Did the author/publisher issue a leather bound limited edition? If the book is available only as you described, then please give me the web address and or telephone number.

Best Regards,

Robert T Adams
704-545-9190
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: rich pierce on May 14, 2018, 11:07:19 PM
I’m going to wait for an autographed copy!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on May 14, 2018, 11:27:32 PM
I missed out on Vol I. :'( So I ordered this AM....'spose it will be here tomorrow? :P
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 15, 2018, 01:13:25 AM
Thank you for your interest in these old rifles - and the men and boys who made them.  Thanks also for supporting the Kentucky Rifle Foundation.

Limited in this case means that the Foundation anticipates only one printing - a fine cloth bound book with dust jacket, but no numbered or leather bound copies.  The first book sold out in several years, and hopefully this project will be equally successful for the KRF, so it might be wise to acquire a copy while available.

Re autographed copies, the author plans to attend the KRA ann mtg in Pittsburg in late June and the CLA gathering in Lexington in August.  He will be flattered and happy to sign books if requested - whether you wait to purchase the book there, or purchase earlier and bring along to those gatherings, or to other locations in the future.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: wattlebuster on May 15, 2018, 01:34:48 AM
Just ordered a copy ;D
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 18, 2018, 05:49:34 AM
I was thinking of a few details that might be of interest to students, contemporary builders and restorers.  Moravian Gunmaking II focuses narrowly on arms that were – or may have been made at the gunshops at Bethlehem and Christian’s Spring between 1750 and 1790. There is a short introduction to Moravian gunmaking, and the typical tools, materials and techniques used in the two gunshops are discussed. This is followed by a brief summary of who was where, their roles and what was happening in the world around them for each year 1750 through 1790. Then come chapters introducing the individual arms, their art and history.
 
As we began collecting images and details of each arm, the many photographers and owners were given a standard format for photos and a questionnaire asking for details, materials, dimensions and comments. Responses varied, but wherever possible, key dimensions and construction details are woven in the text of each chapter. This should be of value to study, stocking and restoration, while still being respectful of those who have shared their treasures with us.
 
The typical narrative with photos includes length of barrel with breech, waist and muzzle size, bore size, rifled or smooth and relieved at the muzzle or not, location of sights, size and style of lock, buttplate size, notes re stock profile with details at wrist, lock mouldings and ramrod entry pipe, pull, drop and castoff, cheekpiece size and maximum thickness of buttstock, patchbox size and details, wrist dimensions, width of lock panels tapering rear to front, construction details, metal and wood finish and any other observations of note. In some cases a tracing of the buttstock is compared with other rifles, and supporting details are quoted from original gunshop inventories.
 
Even though stock patterns and “standard” mounts were used, no two of these rifles and smooth rifles are identical – including signed Oerter rifles from the same year. This is an important part of the story – these are handmade rifles with hand forged barrels, and the barrel, lock, buttplate and mounts pretty well determine the size and feel of each piece. Students and contemporary builders will note the variety around a common theme, just as each of their new efforts will differ slightly based upon components used and how they see the design.  Bob
 
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: wattlebuster on May 19, 2018, 02:24:57 PM
My copy got here yesterday an though I just thumbed through it I can tell its a very good book with quality photos
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: 120RIR on May 20, 2018, 04:41:34 AM
I jumped on this immediately and it arrived yesterday.  So much great information and so much for a newbie like me to learn...and only one lifetime!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on May 20, 2018, 04:52:32 PM
Got mine yesterday as well. After a first brief thumb through it appears to be an outstanding book. I'd like to see the featured  guns come out on a KRA DVD as well.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Marcruger on May 20, 2018, 10:07:58 PM
Mine arrived a few days back.  Excellent work Bob.  How that many guns from the area were collected into one book would be a good story in and of itself. 

Compared to book 1, this one has a lot more history and description involved.  Great learning, and better than I was hoping. 

Just super!   God Bless,   Marc
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: lexington1 on May 20, 2018, 10:17:34 PM
I got mine yesterday. You definitely won't be disappointed in this book!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Karl Kunkel on May 21, 2018, 04:29:40 AM
Looking forward to receiving mine, should be here this week.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Chowmi on May 21, 2018, 06:23:27 PM
Got mine when I returned home yesterday! 

Fantastic book, with great descriptions, background and photos.  What a treat.  Can't keep my nose out of it!

Norm
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: tallbear on May 22, 2018, 01:03:16 AM
Received my copy...Excellent book,look forward to some in depth study in the upcoming days.Thanks to all who's harsd work went into this great reference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch Yates
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 25, 2018, 08:17:59 AM
There are a few comments made in the new book that might generate discussion?  The markings on the Edward Marshall rifle for example. 

Ever notice that the one signed A Albrecht rifle has CW engraved on the buttplate heel?  How early could that buttplate fit, and who or what was CW?

If you haven't noticed, there's a great discussion of Wm Henry, Jr pistols in a related post here.  With photos of other arms that seem to be part of the story. 

Art and Jan just posted details and a few images, including a list of arms covered, and one example. 

Thank you for your interest and support of our KRF.  We are fortunate that the KRA created the KRF, and for all the volunteer hours it takes to create, set up, print and distribute these various displays, books, CD's and coloring book! 

Thanks to the collectors, museums and historical societies who allowed us access to their treasures. 

And to alr.com and our hosts for sharing the info.  Great family here.  Bob
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on May 25, 2018, 01:14:04 PM
The Smooth rifle/fowler with the bayonet is I believe Dutch with the later addition of the Christian's Spring style brass box. I have a Dutch gun here I'll post some pictures of in a separate thread that has many of the same features of that gun.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 29, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
from the book -
(https://preview.ibb.co/kwKLvy/lion_inlay_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n0njNd)
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 29, 2018, 10:49:09 PM
and here are the thumbpiece and patchbox from the same rifle . . . with more engraving.

(https://preview.ibb.co/i5TKOJ/Patchbox_close_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmnqVy)


(https://image.ibb.co/ipG63J/thumbpiece_close_email.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on May 29, 2018, 11:30:53 PM
Ever notice that the one signed A Albrecht rifle has CW engraved on the buttplate heel?  How early could that buttplate fit, and who or what was CW?

CW means "Canada West"...likely Toronto, formerly called "York" I believe....he, he, he.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on May 31, 2018, 01:05:27 AM
Hi Taylor and northern neighbors, and thanks for the he, he, he.  But - Toronto is not far from upstate New York, northern PA and NJ?  How early was that Canada West term used? That rifle came out of Canada - why did you guys let it go, as it's a pretty rare piece?  Would be great to know if it was carried north by Native peoples, Loyalists or ??  Did many settle there right after the Rev War?

In the new book we talk about Caspar Wistar who came to the colonies very early, and then imported rifles from Germany for our local hunters.  Story is that he often had his rifles smuggled in chests, sometimes taken apart, but marked as for him.  Many feel this rifle might be ca 1770's after Albrecht moved to Lititz and adapted his profile a bit.  There might be connections between Wistar, Edward Marshall and his rifle, which may have been stocked by Albrecht at Bethlehem.  Wistar died around early 1750's, I think.  Here's a CW engraved on tang of buttplate (??) on a rifle made by Albrecht again.  Just curious how early the buttplate might be, and if it could have been used or reused 20 to 30 years later?

Either an open mind, or an empty one?  :) Thanks, Bob
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on May 31, 2018, 01:21:10 AM
Bob, although I should know this stuff, I can't say when the area referred to as Canada West was renamed Ontario.  But British and French presence was very well established there for several hundreds of years prior to the Rev. War.  I'm also pretty sure we called it CW until well after the War of 1812.  I recognize that this is of absolutely no use in understanding this rifle any further.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: WElliott on May 31, 2018, 05:15:48 AM
 Bob and VP, I am looking forward to getting an autographed copy in Mars.   :) Congratulations on another  great book, Bob! And thanks  to the KRF for all the wonderful books over the years. Best regards,  Wayne
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: VP on June 04, 2018, 02:11:25 AM
Wayne,

We will have the books and the author at the KRA for you to get a signed one. We are getting some good sales on the book and some excellent responses back. We have had several overseas order come in, even one from Norway! I don't think you will be disappointed in the book. I believe it will be a sell out like the first Moravian book.

VP
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Darrin McDonal on June 12, 2018, 02:47:08 AM
Got mine yesterday as well. After a first brief thumb through it appears to be an outstanding book. I'd like to see the featured  guns come out on a KRA DVD as well.
I second that Mike!!!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: BOB HILL on June 12, 2018, 04:14:18 AM
Congratulations to the author and everyone else that contributed to this fine book. Bob, you have done a wonderful job. I love it.
Bob
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on June 23, 2018, 08:16:03 PM
KRF volunteers and I will have this book, the Foundation's other books, photo CD's and educational information at the Kentucky Rifle Assoc annual meeting near Pittsburg next weekend, and hope to see some alr.com family there.  It takes a family of collectors, historical societies, museums, archives and others to research and create a story like this, and a whole family of volunteers now takes these books and other items to many shows around the country, and they also take orders, pack and mail the books.  In this way KRF keeps costs down and puts all income back to work on future exhibits and projects.  Thanks all.

Here are several thumbnail photos from the book - we were able to include the Edward Marshall rifle in this second volume.  Attributed to Andreas Albrecht at Bethlehem - probably from the mid 1750's, John Bivins described this as a "complete stocking up" of a rifle using an imported lock and barrel 30 years ago.  More recent research lists work just like this rifle being done at Bethlehem - detailing the costs of cleaning and recutting a barrel, cleaning a lock, providing the other mounts and stocking at a cost of about 2 pounds.  Add another pound for a barrel and 10 - 20 shillings for a good quality lock and Marshall probably paid about 4 pounds for the rifle.

(https://preview.ibb.co/gyohc8/E_M_Full_Right_email_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cUThc8)

(https://preview.ibb.co/etZzPo/E_M_cheek_carving_email_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJdR4o)

(https://preview.ibb.co/jBT4qT/Edward_Marshall_sig_email_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nPN8H8)
We'll probably argue the meaning of the stamped and engraved marks on the barrel. 

Jud Brennan has just recently completed a fantastic copy of the original, including handmade lock, triggers and mounts.  This is a great way to learn an important old rifle from a combination of photos, research and reproducing the piece.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Jeff64 on June 24, 2018, 05:02:36 AM
Any chance Vol I will be reprinted?  I missed it first time around and it is now impossible to find. 
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: TommyG on June 25, 2018, 02:02:45 AM
Keep your eyes open - and about 100 bucks in your pocket - I found one at the Lewisburg show this past Feb. - $100 no questions asked.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: jdm on July 09, 2018, 02:23:53 AM
I couldn't make the K.R.A. this year so I ordered one from the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. It  came last week . I was not disappointed . It's a very well done book. I like to read information as well as see the pictures. This book had both. Thank you Bob.
  Don't wait to get one!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on August 03, 2018, 07:50:04 AM
Thank you Mark for starting alr.org twenty plus years back with the forum and other resources, and to the moderators for keeping this site relevant.  I also came to this interest as a hobby gunstocker.  I grew up a farm kid hunting and shooting, then off to college, where I joined ROTC and was on the school’s rifle team.  Next move was to the Colorado mountains, where I lived fur trade history, and learned about rifles by J J Henry and T J Albright. 

Our little family could not afford a nice rifle for my mountain man persona, so I learned to stock a rifle.  David Rase showed me how to use tools, and I carefully studied any original arms I could find in museums and at gun shows.  I stocked a few more, and traded my work for more parts and gear.  Learning to stock a rifle made me a better student of the old guns, and vice versa. 

(https://preview.ibb.co/mWQiGK/1987_jt_nat_WYO_trade_blank_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVUAwK)
Wet Moccasin Basin in Wyoming, with gear for the fur trade

After years of learning on my own, Jack Brooks taught me to stock a correct longrifle from the blank, making all parts but the lock and barrel.  Soon he had me putting the right style of lock together, researching correct barrel and stock profiles, and casting mounts.  Jack has learned from the old guns, and is a tremendous teacher, as many of you know.

(https://preview.ibb.co/jF5diz/build_8_02_bob_and_jack_wit.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j0ehAe)
Bob and Jack with Davy’s rifles for the last Alamo movie

My interests worked back in time to Wm. Henry, Jr at Christian’s Spring, to Henry Albright and his father Andreas Albrecht who learned the gunstocking trade in the old country.  I attempted good copies of firearms by these and other makers.  The research and stocking seemed a good combination, each adding interest to the other.

Earlier gun books note the “short, clunky or heavy Jaeger rifle” – but actually these rifles handle well, and in Germany I saw early arms with the same art and details that appear later on our Kentuckies.  There was a story here, leading to thirty years of study and many discoveries worth sharing.  More than just a book of photos, Moravian Gunmaking II includes an introduction to gunmaking in Moravian communities, a discussion of the two shops and their furnishings, the materials and tools available, the men and boys involved over 40 years, a review of how arms were stocked and details from the annual inventories.
 
(https://preview.ibb.co/ifdEOz/left_34_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iv4AwK)

A rifle and pistol made in Germany come first, to show what Albrecht and Betz would have learned as apprentices and journeymen there.  Then a series of rifles, smooth rifles, fowlers and pistols made here.  Knowing who purchased these rifles and where they were carried adds to the story.  Two Oerter rifles from England and Germany may have been picked up after battle and taken back as war souvenirs.  They have seen little use with regular care and cleaning, allowing us to see how the rifles were stocked and finished in 1774 and 75.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cTX2Ae/barrel_sig_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBVpqe)

Kenneth Orr photographed some of the arms and edited all the images, and we have noted interesting details in the rifles.  For example, the Oerter rifles that carry a brass patchbox are heavier in the butt than the wood box rifles – the buttstocks do not taper until forward of the cheek and patchbox.  The top line of the wrist is often a straight line, which carries over to later rifles by Neihardt and Rupp.  There are other details that may be of interest to students or contemporary builders.  We plan to be at the Kentucky Rifle Foundation’s table at the CLA Show both Friday and Saturday, and would enjoy visiting.  We’ll be happy to sign books, whether you pick up a copy there, or bring one you already have.

Completing this book has taken me away from the bench for several years, and I am anxious to get back.  Research, study of original arms and documents, sharing what we learn, and applying it at the bench all fit well together.  Smart Dog’s tutorial here re stocking a fine English fowler is another way to present this mix of interests.  Eric Kettenburg’s website is yet another – the equivalent of a fine book with considerable original research published online.  Please take time to share what you have learned – it can be a lot of work, but rewarding.  Bob

Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: WElliott on August 03, 2018, 01:45:01 PM
I have thoroughly enjoyed Moravian Gunmaking Ii. Not only are the Moravian rifles foundational to any study of the American Longrifle, Bob’s scholarship and eye for detail raise the bar for future longrifle books. And my friend Kenneth Orr’s photography is always excellent. If you don’t yet have your cooy, you should act right away or be disappointed when it sells out just as the first Moravian book did.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 03, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on August 03, 2018, 07:35:55 PM
Mike - look forward to seeing you and the old gun!
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on August 04, 2018, 12:37:42 AM
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.

Do I need to send you a camera dude?  Sheesh, what a tease!   :P
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 06:21:32 PM
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.

Do I need to send you a camera dude?  Sheesh, what a tease!   :P
OK Mr. instant gratification man. ;)
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Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 06:23:29 PM
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FLiege%2520gun%2F008.jpg&hash=0cee362082a17da5375ace4006acdc27)
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Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 06:24:51 PM
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FLiege%2520gun%2F013.jpg&hash=3e402eea1c6858999ede99df1136a9a8)
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Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 06:36:11 PM
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 As you can see this gun is almost identical  to the gun in the Moravian book except for the left side of the buttsctock. I have seen 5 or 6 of these, this one has the fanciest barrel of the ones I have seen. The lock is old, but doesn't go with the stock. the forestock from the rear pipe forward is a restoration. I believe these gun are from Liege or possibly Dutch from Utrecht which was a big gunmaking center as well. I'm thinking ca. 1730's.  These guns are deceptive, they look real high end at first glance but they aren't, the inletting and stock  shaping are somewhat course. I believe they were trade level guns , most being sold in the extreme NE. I have never seen any of these parts show up in archeological native American sites, must been just a white folks trade item.

 These guns are mentioned in the "Flintlock Fowlers" book on page 29 and also the Beckwith folwer on pages 38 and 39 is a restock of one of these Belgian/Dutch fowling guns.

 I'll get ya's some measurements later today.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: smart dog on August 04, 2018, 08:08:36 PM
Hi Mike,
At risk of asking a naive question, is it possible that at least some of those parts and the barrel are French?  As I understand it, a long flat sighting plane on top of the barrel extending from the breech to the front sight is a common feature on French barrels during the early 18th century.  The Hawkes NE fowler that I posted in this section has a similar barrel feature.

dave
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
You'd think French right away but with some study you'd find these are all made to a very specific pattern. They have some very unique features, at least the 1/2 dozen that I have seen.
 The barrels all have a degree of "fanciness", some more than others, most having a bit of gold leaf in the design, and a top flat running to the front sight. Mine  has the best barrel I have seen on these.
 The furniture is a variation on a specific theme. The trigger guards in all profiles are nearly identical, only the cast decoration on the bow changes much. The crudeness of form of the trigger guards are universal, notice how the bow connects to the finials, identical on all guns I have seen.
 The same could be said of the buttplates, They appear to have been cast flat then formed to the buttstock with some peening in the heel area. They all have a similar upper finial outline and raised relief decoration which may have been cast in as was the decoration on the bow of the triggerguard. I am assuming this cast in decoration was probably cleaned up with burnishers.
 The thumbpieces are all identical.
 The rear ramrod pipes are all constructed exactly the same way. Looks like they were made to have a square return that was turned on it's edge and hammered down to make the pointed finial. I have made several rear pipes using the method I just described with exactly the same results.
 Sideplates are all designed with the same theme as well. The "shield" area was just bumped out from the back side, They were cast flat, then bumped out.
 ALL of the guns I have seen have square toes. All of them are carved to one degree or another, but they all have the same theme in decoration. The lock panels are all crudely designed. The inlets for the buttplates and triggerguards are all as crudely done as the one I illustrated. I believe my gun has had some modification to the top of the comb long ago.
 The one in Bob's book is the only one that I have seen with a cheek piece and it has better inletting of the furniture. The barrel is the most undecorated of all the guns I have seen. But the gun is  otherwise is "of the same pattern".
 I have what's left of an 1730's-40's French trade gun that has been restocked. The mounts are of a wholly different design and much better quality.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 10:58:35 PM
Here's a gun I formed the rear pipe the same way these Dutch gun rear pipes were formed. it's actually pretty clever as done this way that little spikey end stays put and doesn't want to stick out after you inlet it.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/rifle12.html
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: Mike Brooks on August 04, 2018, 11:24:57 PM
Dimensions of my old Dutch gun:
Barrel length 45 1/8". Breech 1.22". Muzzle .800" Bore .650" Tang 2.60".

Trigger pull 12.5".

Wrist 1.745" high by 1.580" wide

Triggerguard 10" long. Bow .745 wide

Sideplate 5 5/8" long

Buttplate 2 1/8" X 4 3/4" butplate finial 5 3/8" long


Maybe the moderators might want to break this out since it sort of invades Bob's thread.
Title: Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
Post by: blienemann on August 05, 2018, 05:09:48 AM
Thanks for a great post, Mike!  Looking forward to a fine discussion at CLA - should be there all day Friday and Saturday til close. 

Your details, comments and measurements are key for comparison, and maybe we can find that info for some of the other examples you mention.  Then a followup article or series of posts.

Thanks for all comments - we hope others will offer their thoughts on this interesting long gun and others in the book, or related pieces they have seen or handled.  As we are learning, these stockers really moved around Europe, and were exposed to many different styles and details before landing in PA.  Constantly changing Princes and their State sanctioned religions caused major shifts in populations, so what might look French could easily be anywhere - and what was France one day was something else the next. 

It appears that Albrecht and others did much more repair and restocking than stocking up complete new arms - especially in the earlier decades when keeping the tools of their Native Brethren and visitors in working form.  Looking at the work they did around the treaties in mid 1750's shows an amazing variety in arms brought to the shop.

If the discussion moves further with details and construction of this piece, it might better serve your study and contemporary work as a separate post.  But as I was trying to say above, study, sharing what we learn and trying to recreate the old guns all go well together.  Bob