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General discussion => Tutorials => Gunmaking tools and techniques- metal shaping => Topic started by: Curtis on May 16, 2018, 10:07:42 AM

Title: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 16, 2018, 10:07:42 AM
Currently I am working on an English sporting gun, and thought it would be a nice touch to add a sliding tumbler safety to the lock.  I am using a Chambers late Ketland for the gun.  The bridle and sear screws on the back of the lock are quite close together, which presented a design challenge in adding the sliding safety.  A common safety design on English locks employs a sliding bar in a slot on the lockplate, with a stabilizing tab on the inside that engages a slot in the bridle.  Here are a couple of photos of a P. Bond lock on a pistol I have by that maker:

(https://preview.ibb.co/cGW9Dy/P1253294.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnVQmJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/hoZMty/P1253295.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXDs0d)

I have a pair of old German locks that were once very nice that have a much simpler yet effective safety that does not use a bar in the lock plate or a tab in the bridle, so I used them for my design.  The Brits will just have to forgive me!  Notice the fly in the center of the tumbler in the second photo:

(https://preview.ibb.co/e6i36J/P5140087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dS8EDy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/nuT36J/P5140088.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMxwRJ)

Other than a few critical measurements I just made the parts to fit each other, mostly by "eyeballing" and trial fitting.  First is a photo of the tumbler as it came from the manufacturer:

(https://preview.ibb.co/mV3pVd/P4031101.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hsG9Vd)

The tumbler had to be modified to allow engagement of the sliding safety.  I filed a flat spot on the tumbler, removing enough material so I would have a solid solder joint below the point of engagement.  Then I cut a wedge of steel and filed it to fit the tumbler at two points and soldered the two together, then cleaned the assembly up with a file.

(https://preview.ibb.co/kFpwAd/P4031103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNbMbJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/mqJZwJ/P4031104.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dOniqd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/iqDTOy/P4031105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c308Oy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/iVt6Ad/P4031106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2MF3y)

(https://preview.ibb.co/iTR4wJ/P4031111.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b1uDqd)

I marked and cut the slot for the safety engagement:

(https://preview.ibb.co/bEJyqd/P4031113.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jhqpwJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/cC5YOy/P4031116.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kfcPVd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/bWVNGJ/P4031118.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mADbbJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/dC3niy/P4031119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eMUSiy)

Next I began the process of manufacturing the safety and the activation knob assembly.   Hopefully the photos are pretty much self explanatory.  Everything is in the rough at this point:

(https://preview.ibb.co/ip9hGJ/P4031120.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gGY9wJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/kTdyqd/P4031121.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n0DWAd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/h5PA3y/P4031122.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fQ6ewJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/hmQHiy/P4031124.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eLpzwJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/jmQpwJ/P4031125.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bKtyqd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/n6sPVd/P4031126.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kYHrAd)

Doing some file-fitting:

(https://preview.ibb.co/mJVHiy/P4041127.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fWHxiy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/bt78qd/P4041129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g9Uciy)

Sawing out the safety mechanism:

(https://preview.ibb.co/dWrbAd/P4041131.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jnC53y)

(https://preview.ibb.co/fsFsiy/P4041133.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dSNGAd)

First dry fit:

(https://preview.ibb.co/jSFKVd/P4041136.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mchzVd)


I must apologize, I live in the boonies and my internet connection has been horrible since a storm blew through here a couple of days ago, so I will have to continue this thread later.  What should normally take an hour to post has taken about four so far....

Thanks for looking,
Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Ed Wenger on May 16, 2018, 01:37:23 PM
That’s some very fine work, as usual, Curtis.  Looking forward to the progress and end result!


          Ed
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: smart dog on May 16, 2018, 01:49:26 PM
Hi Curtis,
That is looking very good. When you fit the bolt into the slot on the tumbler, make sure you allow a tiny bit of slop in the fit. You generally need that so that when you want to disengage the safety, you can pull the flintcock back a tiny bit so that pressure from the tumbler and mainspring is taken off the safety bolt allowing it to be slid backward without a lot of force. That will save a lot of wear on the bolt. Also, don't underestimate the force applied to the bolt by the tumbler when engaged in the tumbler notch.  That force is why British makers supported the other side of the bolt in a slot in the bridle.  Good luck.

dave
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: James Rogers on May 16, 2018, 03:06:16 PM
Leaps and bounds Curtis! Great work. On my bucket list.
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: PPatch on May 16, 2018, 03:37:47 PM
Shaping up to be a fine tutorial Curtis, enjoying your progress.

dave
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Pukka Bundook on May 16, 2018, 03:40:01 PM
Very tidy work Curtis.

Look forward to seeing it completed.
Are you making a new bridle?

We tend to see more bolted locks on rifles and pistols than sporting guns , but as you know, we cannot ever safely use the terms, "Never" or "Always"!

Look forward to updates....

R.
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: SingleMalt on May 16, 2018, 03:58:22 PM
Good idea and work, Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Bob Roller on May 16, 2018, 05:00:55 PM
Very tidy work Curtis.

Look forward to seeing it completed.
Are you making a new bridle?

We tend to see more bolted locks on rifles and pistols than sporting guns , but as you know, we cannot ever safely use the terms, "Never" or "Always"!

Look forward to updates....

R.

Outstanding project and workmanship but way too labor intensive for me
but so is just about everything else. ;D
Keep us in the loop if possible.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Tim Crosby on May 16, 2018, 05:17:13 PM
 Neat idea, the hand work is not the only thing that is Well done, the Photography is outstanding. Look forward to seeing the next set, Thanks for taking the time to do this.

   Tim
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: T*O*F on May 16, 2018, 06:22:58 PM
Pushing the envelope again, eh?
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Rolf on May 16, 2018, 07:18:20 PM
Really great Project. I'm Learning alot here. Thank you for taking the time post stepvise Pictures.

Best regards
Rolf
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: jerrywh on May 16, 2018, 08:18:14 PM
 I converted a couple of locks to the sliding safety style before. I made mine like the English style and still have some conversion parts left over including a hundred or so detente springs.  It is a lot of work and requires a lot of knowledge about heat treating etc.  Congratulations you are now a master lock smith.
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: brokenflint on May 16, 2018, 09:54:09 PM
Nice one Curtis.  Bring it to Bowling Green, I want to see it in person!
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Bob Roller on May 17, 2018, 12:07:12 AM
I have done one slip&slide safety and it was on a very small lock the had
a place indicated on the casting. I think it was marked Fenton.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Clint on May 17, 2018, 01:46:41 AM
Looks like it is going to work really well, Great work. I also like your hand vise.
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 17, 2018, 05:33:58 AM
Hey guys, thanks for all your comments and advice!  I very much appreciate them all.

Dave (SmartDog), I understand what you are saying about the force applied to the bolt when it is in the tumbler notch, and will take your thoughts about leaving a little slop under advisement.  I think the English design is superior to this German one I am using and hope to build or modify a lock with a proper English setup someday.  That being said, the safeties on the old German locks still function almost as new, and it appears the locks have been around the block a few times, even after being converted to percussion.  I wish I could see the gun they were on originally!!

Pukka, not making a new bridle, it is not necessary with this particular design. 

Pushing the envelope again, eh?
You know it, I am still an adrenaline junky!   8)

...I made mine like the English style and still have some conversion parts left over including a hundred or so detente springs..... Congratulations you are now a master lock smith.
Far from a master Jerry, but having fun learning.  Are you thinking about ever selling some of those detente springs?  I would be interested in seeing a photo regardless.

Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 17, 2018, 05:37:37 AM
Here is a closer look at the locks I got the safety design from:

(https://preview.ibb.co/cGjJQd/P5160095.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nuRXkd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/h00KWJ/P5160097.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kTLKWJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/bu1Xkd/P5160098.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gJ6yQd)


Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 17, 2018, 06:27:35 AM
Now for some additional photos of the lock mod!  I marked where I wanted the slot cut in the lockplate, then drilled three holes and sawed the excess with a jeweler's saw.  The slot was then cleaned up with a file and then I began fitting the safety bar.  I had to elongate the slot some after I took the photo to allow the safety to slide:

(https://preview.ibb.co/fKPDrJ/P4041138.jpg) (https://ibb.co/enpeWJ)

(https://preview.ibb.co/e664yy/P4041142.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFka5d)

(https://preview.ibb.co/iodjyy/P4041143.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h93v5d)

When the fitting was complete I roughed out the safety "knob" on the end of the bar:

(https://preview.ibb.co/diABBJ/P4051146.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mL9hJy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/cwxrBJ/P4051147.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jOUhJy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/eWGJrJ/P4051148.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jPUtQd)

After refining the external shape of the safety bolt by trial fitting, I drilled through the bolt body and the bar and pinned them together with a brad nail.

(https://preview.ibb.co/fMaYQd/P5120066.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iAMjWJ)

Next I cut some 3/32" 1095 spring steel and drilled a hole, then cut it close to shape and filed it to fit inside the sear spring.  I put a small washer underneath it to raise it up a bit.

(https://preview.ibb.co/fB5mBJ/P5030043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hbxNkd)

(https://preview.ibb.co/mTYv5d/P5140070.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iW5mBJ)

Now I filed the detente on the spring.  I got the detente position slightly wrong, so I had to make a new spring and re-file the detente in the correct spot.  >:(  Second time around it worked!   I bent a slight downward curve in the spring, then hardened the spring and drew it back to a purplish blue.  Put it all together and YES!  It works like a charm!!  YAAAY!! ;D  ;D

(https://preview.ibb.co/hjzrdy/P5140075.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fBOHJy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/h6MRBJ/P5140077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jnfxJy)

OFF
(https://preview.ibb.co/gmBF5d/P5140079.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cA8HJy)

ON
(https://preview.ibb.co/ek3jyy/P5140080.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fJdHJy)

(https://preview.ibb.co/khmRBJ/P5140082.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c6XcJy)

I filed some on the tumbler and the bridle until the tumbler rested on the bridle when the cock shoulder was resting on the lock plate. 

(https://preview.ibb.co/jTt6BJ/P5140084.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8CcJy)

I had to slightly modify my lock inlet to allow for the tab on the safety spring.  My attempt at a full English lock inlet leaves a bit to be desired...

(https://preview.ibb.co/cDn55d/P5160100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ijZUWJ)

But at least the lock fits in the mortise!!  ...and the safety works when the lock is in place.

(https://preview.ibb.co/gHgMdy/P5160101.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k8AEyy)

Thanks for looking!
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 17, 2018, 06:34:24 AM
Nice one Curtis.  Bring it to Bowling Green, I want to see it in person!

I will certainly bring it along to Bowling Green, Brokenflint!

Curts
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: jerrywh on May 17, 2018, 09:11:36 AM
 Curtis. I probably have a hundred detente springs. Just a guess but you have t ohave a fixture to make the dipole in the spring. I could send you a photo of my jig. It is simple to make.  I also have a full size Twigg sporting rifle lock kit with the sliding safety from Blackley. PM me if your interested.   
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Ron Scott on May 17, 2018, 04:55:53 PM
Hi Curtis.  VERY NICE!  I could ask if any of the students from last years English Sorting Rifle seminar are interested in have you do theirs?  See you in a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: David Rase on May 17, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
Curtis,
You da man!  That is really cool.  I have always liked those sliding English safety locks.  After reading your tutorial, I might have to give it a go.  I don't have a specific project in mind but I always like a new challenge.  Dang, another distraction.
David   
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Robby on May 17, 2018, 10:36:12 PM
Pretty darn cool. Nice job!!!!!
Robby
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: J. Talbert on May 17, 2018, 10:56:43 PM
Curtis,
Another fine project and documentation.
One question - with your soldering of the additional metal on the tumbler, was the soldering temp low enough to preserve the temper of the tumbler?

Can't wait for your next adventure!
Jeff
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 18, 2018, 04:09:44 AM
Curtis. I probably have a hundred detente springs. Just a guess but you have t ohave a fixture to make the dipole in the spring. I could send you a photo of my jig. It is simple to make.  I also have a full size Twigg sporting rifle lock kit with the sliding safety from Blackley. PM me if your interested.

Jerry, I will send you a PM shortly, thanks.

Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 18, 2018, 04:15:00 AM
Hi Curtis.  VERY NICE!  I could ask if any of the students from last years English Sorting Rifle seminar are interested in have you do theirs?  See you in a couple weeks.

Thanks Ron!  And that sounds like a great idea, have everyone bring their locks to Bowling Green and we can set up an assembly line.  Perhaps we can charge something like $49.95 a pop!   8) 

See you there!
Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 18, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
Curtis,
Another fine project and documentation.
One question - with your soldering of the additional metal on the tumbler, was the soldering temp low enough to preserve the temper of the tumbler?

Can't wait for your next adventure!
Jeff

Jeff,  I used a vice as a heat sink and was careful not to get the setup any hotter than necessary.  I used SWIF solder paste which has a pretty low melting point but is quite strong in my experience.  Brownells sells a low temp silver solder paste that would probably work as well.

As for the next adventure - I am working on making a trigger guard for the same rifle, I will try to post some photos in the near future.


Robby and David, thanks for the kind words.  David, I am always working to find distractions for you, lol!  You should go ahead and make one of the safeties.

By the way, FYI everyone: David Rase did the barrel inlet and ramrod hole for the English sporting gun the lock belongs to.  Never have I seen a nicer job of it!  The English sporting gun was started in Ron Scott's class last year at the NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar.  It was a fun class!

Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Greg Pennell on May 18, 2018, 06:00:09 AM
Another super “how to”...this should definitely be added to the tutorial section.

Greg
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Rolf on May 18, 2018, 10:45:16 AM
Another super “how to”...this should definitely be added to the tutorial section.

Greg
I agree. Would a shame to lose it.

Best regards
Rolf
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: David Rase on May 18, 2018, 06:01:41 PM


By the way, FYI everyone: David Rase did the barrel inlet and ramrod hole for the English sporting gun the lock belongs to.  Never have I seen a nicer job of it!  The English sporting gun was started in Ron Scott's class last year at the NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar.  It was a fun class!

Curtis
[/quote]
Thank you Curtis for the endorsement on my barrel inletting.  I appreciate your kind words but you are not helping my transition from full time barrel inletter/part time rifle builder to full time rifle maker/part time barrel inletter.   ;D
David
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: Curtis on May 19, 2018, 04:16:51 AM
David, I often hop around on one foot - on the account of the other one is often stuck in my mouth!  ;)

Curtis
Title: Re: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland
Post by: brokenflint on June 20, 2018, 05:17:30 PM
I liked seeing the in person Curtis, again some nice work there and thanks for the photo tutorial.