AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Larry Pletcher on June 05, 2018, 11:52:06 PM
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Steve Chapman and I have often planned to test penetration of a pure lead ball, and we normally shoot, with a harder alloy ball. We kicked around a number of ways and settled on a row of one-gallon water jugs.
Eric, another friend, and I managed three cameras and Steve did the shooting. The rifle is a .58 flint gun Steve made for me a couple of years ago. Here is a link to the rifle: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/flint-elk-rifle/
The soft lead ball was a .570 swaged ball – nothing unusual. The alloy ball was cast from a batch of “hard cast” pistol bullets that I had left over from handloading for a pistol. Reading Lyman made me think it was around 15 Brinell, slightly harder than wheel weights.
Our load was discussed in the link above: 90 gr of fffg Swiss. Steve commented that it was not hard to load. This load was chronographed earlier at almost 1700 fps.
We set up 10 jugs on a bench and began with the soft ball. It was found in the 4th water jug. The first 3 were destroyed. The second ball surprised us. While we didn’t know, we would have guessed at maybe 5 or 6 jugs, and we planned to recover it. But, the hard cast ball went through all 10 jugs and ended up in the woods down range. We never did recover it.
We have video and a batch of stills of the test. The pic below is the first shot showing the jugs being hit. The same shot shows water from the tenth jug. You can see fragments of the jugs and blue bottle caps in the air.
(https://preview.ibb.co/b37Qv8/IMG_0382.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jdNEoT)
Summing up, we think this rifle and the hard cast ball is real elk medicine.
Regards,
Pletch
PS:
After Friendship I will finish up an article (including video) for this test on www.blackpowdermag.com
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Good test, Larry - the results are quite demonstrative!
Samuel Baker noted that "a ball of that size" (meaning 15 bore for 14 bore rifle) if hardened with mercury or a bit of tin would pass through and through an elephant's head with only 4 1/2 drachms of powder and that 5 drachms could be used without hurting the accuracy not producing any very unpleasant recoil .
We are quite certain Baker was referring to drams with his choice of the "drachms" wording, as 4 1/2 or 5 drachms does produce quite unpleasant recoil in a 9 1/2 pound rifle.
Considering the intended target is honey-combed bone, this is quite a feat, but definitely shows the potential of hardened balls for deeply penetrating purposes.
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I think if you make a thru shot on an elk that you're going to be chasing him for a few miles. You need that round ball to flatten out and create a wound channel so it bleeds out quickly, as well as any secondary channels if the ball hits bone and comes apart.
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The issue that I have found with hard lead is that the patch does not grip the ball and accuracy suffers. My groups went from 1" @ 50 yds to 5 1/2" @ the same range.
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I think if you make a thru shot on an elk that you're going to be chasing him for a few miles. You need that round ball to flatten out and create a wound channel so it bleeds out quickly, as well as any secondary channels if the ball hits bone and comes apart.
That’s what 1st came to my mind too ... as I know of more than a few cases where people used a (errr .... ‘modern’) heavier bonded or interlock-type bullet of heavy weight on medium sized critters ... and the rounds merely punched a clean hole right through BUT DUMPED NO ENERGY into the animal. Chased one big buck for miles we did ...
Penetration by itself ... is NOT everything.
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Dave,
I did this test for the soft vs hard cast, but also because of a friend who hunts elk with a center fire. My unexpanded .57 is larger than his expanded center fire bullet. You may very well be right though; with my total lack of elk hunting experience, I would not presume to argue. I haven't shot anything larger than a white tail deer and with nothing bigger than .50 roundball.
I'm looking forward to seeing you at Friendship. Taking spark photos in #112.
Regards,
Pletch
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My experience hunting with non-expanding projectiles has been going after very large critters who can kill me if I fail to get sufficient penetration to break big bones or get deep into thick skulls ( Cape Buffalo and Elephant). Never thought they might be necessary for big “deer”.
I’ve read of people using wheel weight round balls for Elk and Moose to get more penetration than they could get with dead soft lead. Your test provides some quantitative measure. Thanks.
Look forward to chatting with you this weekend.
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Don,
I hope you stop by the booth. I have a new fixture that will handle your left hand lock easily.
Regards,
Pletch
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Back in 2008, I did a penetration test for ITX roundball, a harder than lead, non-lead projectile. I noticed right off the bat that harder projectiles penetrated much deeper into my test backstop, which consisted of a thick tightly bundled block of wet newspapers.
Actually Steve Chapman did accuracy tests with ITX very soon after my penetration tests, and Larry Pletcher published the results on his internet magazine. The harder than lead ITX did suffer from reduced accuracy but managed to achieve hunting accuracy at 100 yards or less. But it does penetrate better than lead. One of the concerns that was brought up by several hunters was the lack of any expansion from a harder than lead projectile. It was suggested that for a harder than lead projectile, you use a bigger caliber so as to get as big a wound channel as possible?
Ken Prather
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Bullets and balls don't kill by "dumping energy"....the energy is used to push the projectile through tissue and destroy it. Expanding balls make a wider, but much shallower wound. Sure, an expanded bullet that nearly, but not quite, exits will do more damage than one doesn't expand, all other factors equal. And temporary cavitation at high velocities can cause animals to drop if it affects the spinal column. But with big caliber, heavy hardcast projectiles you start with a large wound channel to begin with, and can shoot THROUGH bone and penetrate vitals completely under less than ideal conditions where expanding bullets may fail. And if you break upper front legs and shoulders, you can drop game just like expanding high velocity rounds do through the ribs. Plus complete penetration gives a bloodtrail if needed, where bullets that don't exit often don't. More than one way to skin a cat (or drop an ungulate)...
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I have been thinking of using a smaller amount of hard in the mix for an up coming fall bear hunt. I would still like my .610 ball to expand and mushroom but have pass through. I had planed on using about 10% tin/90% pure lead. Has anyone else used a combination like that and if so how did it work out?
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Bullets and balls don't kill by "dumping energy"....
I take it you never heard of hydrostatic shock then ... ?
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Bullets and balls don't kill by "dumping energy"....
I take it you never heard of hydrostatic shock then ... ?
Until projectiles get north of 3000 fps, (which muzzleloaders don't do), it's effects are negligible. What is often assumed to be the effects of hydrostatic shock is usually expanding lead fragments doing the damage. Most tissue is very elastic and temporary cavitation is, well, temporary. Two places I will grant you where damage from hydrostatic shock can be very effective at putting down animals and causing damage beyond the permanent wound channel, are the lungs and liver. But I've seen hardcast bullets make large permanent wounds in lung tissue as well while having a caliber-sized entrance and exit wound. Generally, projectiles kill by putting a large hole through vitals, causing rapid blood loss that leads to unconsciousness and death, not because of some magic amount of energy "dumped" into the animal. While it's true that sometimes a non-expanding bullet passes straight through an animal and it runs a long way, it's also true that sometimes an expanding bullet fails to penetrate enough...and the animal runs a long way! This time without a bloodtrail...
If I had a smaller caliber gun shooting a roundball pretty fast at medium game, surely I would want a soft lead, expanding ball. But a large caliber ball against a much larger animal?... I may choose a harder ball for much better penetration. And I never worry about bullets exiting because they "wasted" energy...I'm much more worried about a bullet that fails to penetrate enough.
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Larry, thanks for posting this. I have a favorite .58 caliber flintlock for hunting also. I look forward to seeing the full report of your testing. Was the hardcast ball .570 also, and how thick were your patches?
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Larry, thanks for posting this. I have a favorite .58 caliber flintlock for hunting also. I look forward to seeing the full report of your testing. Was the hardcast ball .570 also, and how thick were your patches?
The hardcast balls came from a Lyman .570 mould. They measured a little over. Steve uses pocket drill for patch. I didn't measure it, but believe it to be around .022". I'll see him Friday at Friendship and will ask him. He told me it didn't load any harder than the swaged soft lead ball.
Regards,
Pletch
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I have killed 4 elk using ,54 caliber swaged soft lead round balls. All but one passed through. The one I recovered was a quartering shot. It went through a rib both lungs, the heart, through a shoulder blade and lodged under the skin.
It was not flattened and it retained 90% of its weight.
I helped a good friend on a bull elk hunt last September. He was using a .54 with patched soft lead round ball. He killed a 330" Bull at 108 yards, complete pass through. He was using the same load I use, 100 grains 2f Goex.
Unless you are planning exclusively on Texas Heart shots I don't think hard lead balls are necessary.
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Larry,
Thanks for your work on this.
For a long time I have been thinking of trying a harder ball to see if it Improved accuracy in a smoothbore. (Musket)
A normal .750" ball shortens somewhat on discharge, and expands to fill the bore of .760". (My specific musket)
(Recovered balls show a belt or equator where they have expanded to fit the bore when fired with full charges of powder)
A hard ball would not expand in this way, so in Theory, should shoot better at longer range.
As in, Any projectile wider than it is long is going to plane off in some direction as range increases, so your hard ball should make an interesting test.
Thanks again,
Richard.
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The issue that I have found with hard lead is that the patch does not grip the ball and accuracy suffers. My groups went from 1" @ 50 yds to 5 1/2" @ the same range.
Interesting - my hard ball groups mirror my soft ball groups. I shoot a .682" pure lead round ball and a .677" hardened ball using the same .030" to .034" patch.
Accuracy to 200yards is identical. If using a hardened ball, reduce the ball's diameter and use a thick patch. If tight enough - it cannot-but follow the grooves.
Even a VERY tight fitting paper ctg. showed identical accuracy, with both cast from the same .682" mould.
A .682" HARD ball, fired from a paper ctg. made a 3" diameter hole through both lungs of a large bull moose. I suggest, that an expanding ball is not necessary, as the shock-wave/cavitation in
front of the ball MUST be what caused the holes so large. The recovered ball was only expanded slightly, to .70 cal. An exit hole would have allowed bleeding for a blood trail, but was not needed -
the moose went no where but down.
I do not know what sized hole a .58 ball might make, but do know, "a properly fitted paper ctg." (as-in around the ball) will shoot as well as a cloth patched ball, down to about .54 calibre.
A few other guys on this site have done these tests as well, with similar to identical results.
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When hunting bears , my gun of choice is my 10 bore with balls cast from wheel weights. These pass through from any angle. 8 bears , one shot each. None travelled far . If I remember correctly, 25 yards was about the furthest . I get the same result from my 20 bore using soft lead, but since I've got a lot of the WW stuff, it's nice to have a use for it. When hunting, I use paper cartridges , and haven't noticed any decrease in accuracy with the ww balls.
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Arcturus, I agree with your description of how lead prb kills game. That has been my experience and training.
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Bob in the woods, did you get pass through on the bears with the pure lead 20 bore? I have only shot three bears with my 20 bore with pure lead .610 balls but have not had any pass through. The bears only went 9-12 and 30 yds. after being hit but there was a lot of internal damage from pushing the ball along with 110 gr. of 1&1/2 swiss. I would still like to get just a little harder mix so as to get pass through.
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I've only shot 2 black bears with my 20 bore. One was 24 feet away , [ the length of my shop at the time ] and the soft lead ball over 110 gr of FFg went through both lungs and exited , the bear spinning around and spraying the wall , then dropping. He was a 2 year old male who was very very hungry, and had tried to eat my dog. He woofed at me, shook his head, and was extremely aggressive when I interrupted his attempt at a meal. I was alerted by my dog's howl of terror. Luckily, paper cartridges load quickly.
The other bear was shot at about 30 yards, and the round ball went through both lungs and nicked the top of the heart, but did not exit. The bear went about 20 yards and dropped. I have cast some WW .600 balls, but haven't hunted with them as yet, preferring the 10 bore for most of this kind of work. I've no doubt that a WW ball in the 20 would pass through a bear, and do a good job but since I have the 10.....
For interest's sake, I have used foster type slugs in my 12 g pump in the past, and had them break apart on heavy bone . I took some shells apart and switched the slugs for .690 WW balls with excellent results. I really believe that a large round ball ,soft or hardened, depending on the game, is about the best hunting projectile there is within practical range limits.
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The issue that I have found with hard lead is that the patch does not grip the ball and accuracy suffers. My groups went from 1" @ 50 yds to 5 1/2" @ the same range.
Interesting - my hard ball groups mirror my soft ball groups. I shoot a .682" pure lead round ball and a .677" hardened ball using the same .030" to .034" patch.
Accuracy to 200yards is identical. If using a hardened ball, reduce the ball's diameter and use a thick patch. If tight enough - it cannot-but follow the grooves.
Even a VERY tight fitting paper ctg. showed identical accuracy, with both cast from the same .682" mould.
A .682" HARD ball, fired from a paper ctg. made a 3" diameter hole through both lungs of a large bull moose. I suggest, that an expanding ball is not necessary, as the shock-wave/cavitation in
front of the ball MUST be what caused the holes so large. The recovered ball was only expanded slightly, to .70 cal. An exit hole would have allowed bleeding for a blood trail, but was not needed -
the moose went no where but down.
I do not know what sized hole a .58 ball might make, but do know, "a properly fitted paper ctg." (as-in around the ball) will shoot as well as a cloth patched ball, down to about .54 calibre.
A few other guys on this site have done these tests as well, with similar to identical results.
I'll have to retry it in my .58. I have a .570" mold on order from Jeff Tanner and a .562" mold already.
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Stubshaft - I would try the .562" mould for my .58's WW balls, along with a nice thick patch.
The .570's or even .575" in WW would work in paper ctgs.
I make mine tapered, to make them easier to handle and little to zero waste of powder when tearing off the end.
(https://image.ibb.co/gFG7V8/ctg_pouch_1_zps0usjywa8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iRRViT)
(https://image.ibb.co/bK8bOT/ctg_pouch_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hUVqiT)
(https://image.ibb.co/jJfZA8/58cartridge_zpsm4buyx6t.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
delete my (https://deleteacc.com/y)
(https://image.ibb.co/nuc33T/engcart.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Thanks Daryl. I'll give it a try.
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I think if you make a thru shot on an elk that you're going to be chasing him for a few miles. You need that round ball to flatten out and create a wound channel so it bleeds out quickly, as well as any secondary channels if the ball hits bone and comes apart.
Not if its placed right. And if you hit the humerus on a grown elk penetration WILL suffer since a lot of energy will be expended there with a lead ball. If the shot is 100 yards expansion will not be all that great anyway even with pure lead. I once shot a mule deer with a low powered "38" brass suppository rifle, rifle dated to the 1880s, BP and a fairly hard bullet (tube magazine) punched a little hole through the lungs. Deer made it about 40-50 yards and piled. I have had them run 200 when shot with 50-54 RBs at close range and good placement. I don't see energy counting for much, though large wound channels are good. I shot a MD doe with a .662 ball at about 40 yards, 1600 at the muzzle. She was facing me and the ball struck just to one side of the windpipe. Turned the top 3/4 of the heart and the arteries to jello. Deer ran almost exactly as far as the MB buck shot with the anemic brass suppository gun. So..... Place the shot.
Dan
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I've shot completely through a couple elk with .45cal. cast bullets, One went 70yards, and the other dropped at the shot. No expansion on either. Now, I kind of like a hole out the off side. If the animal decides to run, he's going to leak a bit of red. Without an exit wound, there is rarely a blood trail.
The do no run far with a .69 ball, non-expanding or soft lead, that makes it across the animal and they all do, leg bones or not. The animal might stagger 20 yards, or simply lay down.
I have also had expanding bullets stop inside moose. Most drop at the shot, while Taylor and I spend a couple hours tracking one moose, probably 1/2 mile, just by the way he was "throwing" a leg - by the tracks only - no blood - that was not fun.
If shooting a small ball - stay away form any bone on large bodied game. If shooting a larger ball, ribs are no problem, like a .54 or larger. I found pure or hardened .682" lead to work well on moose leg bones & the lungs before or after hitting the lungs - smashing good calibre!
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While I've never killed anything larger than a deer, I'll go ahead and say my piece. I see good use for alloy lead - WW for example - in the squirrel calibers. Expansion isn't needed and usually not wanted. For deer calibers, in this case I'll just list .40 through .54 and maybe .58, soft lead works best as expansion occurs and does more damage...usually. But certainly when one gets to the big fellers, .62 & up, anything from soft lead to brass will do just fine.
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The only thing I can think of in the lower 48 that might possibly need a hard alloy ball, would be a big old boar.
Hungry Horse
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The only thing I can think of in the lower 48 that might possibly need a hard alloy ball, would be a big old boar.
Hungry Horse
It would be an interesting read on someone hunting hog with a muzzle loader.
I have watched several videos on "You Tube" where hunters are shooting wild hog in various states.
All of these videos were hunters using modern weapons.
Fred
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There are more than a few guys out here in California that hunt hogs with muzzleloaders, they just don’t make YouTube videos of the event. Now I would’nt recommend jumping on one over about a hundred and fifty pounds without back up. Big calibers, heavy loads, and short range, along with shooting them in the vitals, all adds up to a successful hunt.
If you’re a hunter, and don’t realize the threat to your hunting of anything other than hogs, is hogs. You need to get educated. Hogs are taking over literally all the habitat used by other species, including us. So go hog hunting.
Hungry Horse
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The only thing I can think of in the lower 48 that might possibly need a hard alloy ball, would be a big old boar.
Hungry Horse
It would be an interesting read on someone hunting hog with a muzzle loader.
I have watched several videos on "You Tube" where hunters are shooting wild hog in various states.
All of these videos were hunters using modern weapons.
Fred
I've killed a pretty large pile of hogs over the years with modern guns, primitive bows, and a few with a muzzleloader. I've also killed a fair number of elk, though only one with a muzzleloader, a nice fat cow. I'll happily shoot hogs with a gun that I would never consider hunting elk with, they just aren't that hard to kill. An elk is a pretty tough critter, and quite tenacious of life.
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There was a reason that people shooting heavy game in Africa and India. The soft lead ball on a "hard target" suffers from limited penetration 20" of penetration on a deer is usually plenty and most will do 30". However, on and animal the size of an elk if a large bone is encountered, like the humerus, penetration can be curtailed with a 54 caliber ball. This from making the shot some years back and breaking the humerus on a large cow at about 80-100 yards. Had the ball not gotten the aorta it might have taken some tracking. It never penetrated the off side chest wall. Here is a photo of a boned out front leg/shoulder of an Alaska-Yukon moose decent sized bull shot by a friend on place I used to own in AK. Note size of the bones, very dense and hard. I would shoot hard lead even with the 16 bore. Would use hard lead on large bears as well.
Dan
(https://preview.ibb.co/d5HaxT/Moose_shoulder.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bQy4ro)
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I've shot completely through a couple elk with .45cal. cast bullets, One went 70yards, and the other dropped at the shot. No expansion on either. Now, I kind of like a hole out the off side. If the animal decides to run, he's going to leak a bit of red. Without an exit wound, there is rarely a blood trail.
<snip>
I like exit wounds too. Much better blood trail.
Dan
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I also like an exit.
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I think we are confusing bullet performance with just plain old poor shot placement. If you encounter a large bone, its not a good shot. A moderately large caliber muzzleloader shot at a reasonable range ( 100 yards or less) will usually shoot clear through the chest cavity of an average size elk, and leave the ball under the hide on the off side. I’ve seen this happen even when the shot encounters a rib on the entrance side. Long tracking adventures, that require a heavy blood trail, are usually an indication of a poor shot, or an angleing shot, that takes the ball out of the target zone.
Wild hogs can be very hard to kill, in my experience. On a hunt several years ago one of the group shot a large boar right behind the shoulder, with a .54 cal. Tryon plains rifle. The shot flipped the boar completely over, but he righted himself and started looking for revenge. After three of us shot him he finally went down. The first bullet had gone through the back edge of his very thick shoulder plate, and one lung, and stopped. He even tore up a fair amount of real estate after being shot in the spine.
Hungry Horse
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Hogs are kinda like goats and Buffalo, aren't they? That is, living in the bottom third of the body. As well, not far behind the shoulder
is the diaphragm then guts. I suspect this would make 'proper shot placement' a little more difficult as well as slight angles would make
hitting both lungs, problematic.
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Most of the deer I have shot with my .58 were complete pass throughs. Resulting in short easy tracking jobs and easy recovery. The only ball I ever recovered, traveled from one shoulder to stop inside of the opposite ham. Traveling the entire length of the deer. The deer traveled 27 yds. The alloy balls I used was 5 percent antimony, even though it would pass the fingernail test. After measuring the ball would have been shootable. My primary lead supply is intercell connectors from the large commercial forklift batteries I work on. I have no doubt that this combo will badly mess up any critters day. After harvesting a bunch of deer with this gun I’ve never had more than a 30 yd tracking job. By choice all my shooting has been within archery range. BJH
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Samuel Baker noted that "a ball of that size" (meaning 15 bore for 14 bore rifle) if hardened with mercury or a bit of tin would pass through and through an elephant's head with only 4 1/2 drachms of powder and that 5 drachms could be used without hurting the accuracy not producing any very unpleasant recoil .
We are quite certain Baker was referring to drams with his choice of the "drachms" wording, as 4 1/2 or 5 drachms does produce quite unpleasant recoil in a 9 1/2 pound rifle.
https://www.apothecariesweights.com/
This is from a pharmacist web site which explains in short order the difference and non-difference between dram and drachm. The English language can be confusing, especially when time and different continents are involved.
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Hi,
I really hope that we, or someone can come up with a resolve on an alternative to lead real soon.
Our wise Ontario fish and game dept. are working on a ban on lead in all avenues of outdoor shooting. Cartridge guns can and do well with non lead projectiles.
Traditional muzzleloaders will have a hard time passing, using corn meal, nylon, or styrofoam balls for projectiles.
Fred
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California did just that. They banned lead projectiles, even though the muzzleloading community petitioned them heavily to make an exception. They argued that it endangered the California Condor. But, we are three hundred miles from condor habitat, so that argument is just plain bogus.
Hungry Horse
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California did just that. They banned lead projectiles, even though the muzzleloading community petitioned them heavily to make an exception. They argued that it endangered the California Condor. But, we are three hundred miles from condor habitat, so that argument is just plain bogus.
Hungry Horse
And they have banned all lead projectiles within the condor habitat for a number of year, the ban will be state wide next year. Interestingly, they haven't found in reduction in the lead levels in the condors as a result. But without stepping on forum rules and swerving into politics, let me say that the lead ban isn't about saving wildlife, it is simply an element of a different agenda.
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Rick - you are absolutely right. The birds, whether condors, geese or ducks are merely an excuse.
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I am wondering if anyone has cast balls from Bismuth. It has a melting temperature of 520f. It goes for about $10.00 per pound. It is already approved as non toxic for use in shot. I believe it is slightly harder than lead.
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Yes, Bismuth balls are pretty much the only option if you shoot a caliber that isn’t common. It is quite a bit harder than pure lead.
Hungry Horse
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I understood bismuth was brittle - if so, it would likely shatter on bone.
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It is my understanding that per California regs any lead free ammunition must be tested, certified, and approved by the State. This pretty much eliminates rollin' yer own.
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I was told by a fish and game enforcement officer that they have a field test that reacts to any lead presence on the entry or exit wound. Otherwise how could they tell if your bullets are factory, or home grown? Other wise you could carry the proper packaging for a certified product, and shoot one you rolled up at home.
Hungry Horse
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I think if you make a thru shot on an elk that you're going to be chasing him for a few miles. You need that round ball to flatten out and create a wound channel so it bleeds out quickly, as well as any secondary channels if the ball hits bone and comes apart.
I've shot enough elk to appreciate a pass through. Put a hole through both lungs, they are down in 30 yards.
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Daryl if you’re hitting bones big enough to shatter a bismuth ball, you’re shooting them in the wrong end. The heads on the other end.
Hungry Horse
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I was thinking of buying a pound of Bismuth and cast some .600 balls as an experiment. The only real concern I have, is that Bismuth expands 3% when it freezes into a solid. Not sure how that would work in a mould.
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Every round ball I’ve cast from anything other than pure lead, turns outoversized to some degree.
Hungry Horse
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Some alloys have greater expansion than others. As well, ball diameter also has an effect on growth
as the actual mass/quantity is also important - the greater the diameter of the mould, the greater the
diameter of the cast ball - or bullet, for that matter.
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Alacran, moulds are made in all sorts of sizes. Select one 3% smaller than what you want for a finish size.
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Actually I am just curious about casting Bismuth. I don't have a legal requirement to use it in AZ.
I figured I would try it in a .530 mould which I have. I have a GRRW barrel that shoots a .530 or a .535 ball very well.
The experiment will let me know the practical amount of expansion .
Then I will have to shoot them to see just how brittle they really are.
Would like to go hunt feral hogs in CA.
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I have experimented with bismuth a bit. I live in CA and have been dealing with this lead ban since 2009.
I tried 100% bismuth and the ball shattered when I dropped a hammer on it from about 12 inches (gravity only). I then added increments of tin. The ball stopped shattering when I was at about 80 bismuth / 20 tin. There is a company that touts 90/10 but that did not work out as well as my 80/20 balls for me anyway. The ball does mould a little bigger as bismuth expands when it cools.
The other issue is that bitsmuth and tin seems to want to separate after you reheat it. So you need to keep it stirred. If you dont, your balls will just crumble as you release them out of the mould.
also Bismuth and tin roundball IS an approved projectile by the CA Fish and Wildlife as far as I am aware, as is ITX roundball from Tom Bob..
Ken Prather
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I have shot minnies against boiler plate and seen them flatten completely like a flat washer ! I have had balls alloyed with linotype shatter like glass on a hard surface. I think hardening with tin they stay together.
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I have experimented with bismuth a bit. I live in CA and have been dealing with this lead ban since 2009.
I tried 100% bismuth and the ball shattered when I dropped a hammer on it from about 12 inches (gravity only). I then added increments of tin. The ball stopped shattering when I was at about 80 bismuth / 20 tin. There is a company that touts 90/10 but that did not work out as well as my 80/20 balls for me anyway. The ball does mould a little bigger as bismuth expands when it cools.
The other issue is that bitsmuth and tin seems to want to separate after you reheat it. So you need to keep it stirred. If you dont, your balls will just crumble as you release them out of the mould.
also Bismuth and tin roundball IS an approved projectile by the CA Fish and Wildlife as far as I am aware, as is ITX roundball from Tom Bob..
Ken Prather
I'd have to look to be certain, but I believe that any lead free projectiles used in CA must be tested, approved and certified by the state to be legal for hunting. This pretty much rules out roll your own ammo.
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Enforcement agents would have no way of knowing if a projectile was lead free or not if that were true. They have a field test that reacts if the projectile contains lead.
Hungry Horse
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Enforcement agents would have no way of knowing if a projectile was lead free or not if that were true. They have a field test that reacts if the projectile contains lead.
Hungry Horse
From the CA DF&W website.
Effective July 1, 2008, ammunition used for hunting of big game and nongame species within the range of the California condor must use a projectile which has been certified to contain less than or equal to 1 percent lead by weight. Projectiles here are defined as "any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force."
In addition, Assembly Bill 711 has been chaptered into law requiring the phase-out of lead ammunition when taking (hunting) any wildlife in the state by July 1, 2019. Phase-in regulations have been developed that begin implementation of AB 711 on July 1, 2015, and are designed to impose the least burden on California's hunters while still implementing the intent of the law. AB 711 builds on the previously enacted ban on the use of nonlead ammunition for big game and nongame hunting within the range of the California condor. Existing lead restrictions in the California condor range remain in effect.
CDFW and the California Fish and Game Commission have developed a process to certify projectiles as meeting the nonlead threshold (less than or equal to one percent lead content) for purposes of these regulations. Manufacturers are required to undergo an application process to have their ammunition certified as legal for use. If you would like your product(s) considered as legal projectiles in California, please submit a Nonlead Cartridge/Projectile Certification Application.
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certification
Before you use any ammunition, it appears that it must be certified by the state. This would seem to rule out DIY cast balls. Since the standard is 1% or less lead content, which allows for at least *some* lead, a field test likely couldn't tell if you had 1%, 2%, or 10% lead content. GAAAAHHHH, I can't wait to leave this miserable state >:(
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In California, if the material used is approved, (of which bismuth and tin most definitely are) I see no problem making your own and using them. Ultimately is the burden of the Department of Fish and Wildlife to prove that your projectile is made of a banned material (lead), and they have ways of testing it even in the field. Its really not that difficult. There are pre-made options on the market as well that will work--albeit not as good as lead.