AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: louieparker on June 10, 2018, 01:48:19 AM
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Longknife I offer these photos as proof that I did make a copy of the Phillip Creamer rifle.. He made this rifle for William Clark. The thumb piece of original rifle is marked WC and the oval on the breech is marked PC.. It was give to the Missouri Historical Society by the Clark family in the nineteen thirties..
Its 40 caliber with a 14 1/4 inch trigger pull.. The copy finished with a 14 1/8 inch pull..
The 40 cal. barrel is swamped and made by Ed Rayl.
Photos were made by Ric Lambert at the Knoxville Show'
Louie
(https://preview.ibb.co/h6zy58/TNKY18_597_rl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxLSyT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d960JT/TNKY18_600_rl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fpPWQ8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/npELJT/TNKY18_601_rl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHenyT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n8kSyT/TNKY18_605_rl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eQofJT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/by0Gso/TNKY18_607_rl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iQX7yT)
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Thats real nice !
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Handsome rifle for sure. Nice work Louie.
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Louie,
Super rifle!
I'm not familiar with Creamer. Is there more to the story on ALR somewhere, or can you tell us a little more about him and the original version of this rifle?
Thanks,
Jeff
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Those are really good pictures, but no comparison to actually holding it in your hands! Louie was kind enough to let me handle it at the Knoxville show, and the detail is amazing! It is a great rifle by any measure.
Greg
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Exceptional! Looked good at Princeton too.
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Terrific choice and execution.
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Beautiful work - by both you and Creamer. Well done.
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Louie, outstanding as usual. That is superb.
Darrin
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As has been already said out standing in all respects. That checkered wrist really sets it off. How many lines per inch is it?
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Louie did you make the lock? Looks like its hand made.
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I had the pleasure of looking at this rifle at the Princeton show while it was in the white and then finished at the Knoxville show and the pictures do not do it justice. Ric takes great pictures but you have to hold this rifle to really appreciate the quality of Louie's craftsmanship. Louie hand made the butt plate and guard I know for sure and he probably made all the metal except for the barrel. If you want to see true craftsmanship take the time to stop and look at this rifle, he will probably have it at the CLA show.
Not to shabby for an old @$#%.
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Very , very, nicely done sir !! I really like seeing different pieces. The stuff you don`t see all the time. Thanks for posting! Nate
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Beautiful rifle Louie. I think I am in love!
David
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OUTSTANDING!No other way to describe it.I made a lock for a Creamer copy by Bob Browner
sometime ago and Louie and Bob have the details down to perfection.
Will this rifle be at the CLA show in Lexington? I hope to see it there.I seldom see a fancy fullstock
that I like but this one IS different.
Bob Roller
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Now that is seriously a 'masterpiece' rifle. Spectacular job in all aspects.
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Jeff he has been discussed on a few other threads. A bit on the Bull Buffalo Horn thread. That was on Clark's buffalo powder horn, There are fellows on this site that know far more about Creamer than me, maybe they will chime in on your question..
He started his career in Maryland and moved to Illinois in 1805. Setting up his business in Dupo just across the river from St. Louis. Around 1824 he went back East and worked at Harpers Ferry for a few months . In 1825 he went back west and set up shop in St. Louis and worked there until about 1835.
He worked for the Indian Department. I read somewhere that he had a shop that was especially for the Indian Affairs business and one for his regular gun business . There is record of him making pistols for several dignitaries of the time. But I know of only two of his Western made rifle and they are nothing alike. There are surly more out there somewhere. I read in a fur traders account book where he made a down payment to Creame on a rifle in the amount of $17.00 . That alone was a lot for a rifle. What was the total cost and what did it look like ???
When the subject of St. Louis guns comes up Creamer is rarely mentioned. Its always Hawken, Gimmer, Dimick or others. Creamer was in the area long before most (or all ) of these fellows and his work is certainly not below their level. But Hawken is the big name. I have a friend who is involved in Hawken up to his eye balls. I told him that Willam Clark had two rifles that are now in the museum and both showed his good taste in rifles.. One is John Small and the other by Creamer.. He said," I am surprised he didn't have a Hawken!" I replied " That may tell you what he thought about Hawken." He laughed !
The lock on this rifle is an original Ashmore flint action.. Its of the same general shape as the one on the now converted Creamer, but different style pan.
Bob I am not sure that I will be at the CLA. Would like to. If I do I will bring the rifle and horn.
Jeff ask about the original rifle. I am attaching a museum full length photo. . There are some other photos on this site in the builder section. They were posted by a fellow who was making his Creamer copy.. Lots of close ups.. Can't tell you how to find them.
Smiley grouch the wrist is 16 lines per inch.. May not be exactly like the museum rifle. I got screwed up on the count.
Thanks for the nice comments.... Louie
(https://preview.ibb.co/eqLPXo/15650012148_c34559157d_o_zpsce1jjmee_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fWewdT)
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Creamer was obviously a master craftsman that could hold his own with any of his contemporaries
and surpass a lot of them.It's also obvious that Louie Parker and Bob Browner have captured the
idea that Creamer so long ago set forth.
Louie,I seriously doubt if ANY of us will criticize the lines per inch of the checkering and I hope you
can come to the CLA show and bring this recreated rifle.
Bob Roller
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Hi Louie: the 16 lines per inch is so well done it looked finer. Every thing about your rifle is very well done. IIRC Creamer made a pistol that Andrew Jackson had.
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That's one gorgeous rifle for sure. Beautifully done.
K.C.
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Bob thanks. I may be a bit biased, I think the Creamer/Clark rifle is the finest rifle to come out of the St. Louis area and probably the Mid West.. Creamer was a great craftsman , but also a creative artist.. I might try to copy his work, but no way would I attempt to compete in the art department.. I am completely useless at that..
Speaking of his pistols... You have probably seen this pistol but I am attaching photos of one of his flint pistols.. It has one of his famous Creamer locks...Louie
(https://preview.ibb.co/fOCYco/PICT0018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ho58A8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ggHGxo/PICT0029.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ikkfOT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kfipHo/PICT0019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dEvfOT)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d8Wbxo/PICT0030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mb2S3T)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cjPJA8/PICT0021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c0qEiT)
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What a wonderful pistol. Any chance you have some dimensions on it?
Ed
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Buffaload what you like to know ? LP
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Great work Louis...a most worthy interpretation of a really superlative rifle. Love your attention to detail.
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Fantastic rifle - like the checkering a lot...
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It looks like the pistol has a hooked breech. Can you give me the length from the joint of the hooked breech to the muzzle of the barrel? Much appreciated.
That’s a superb rendition of a very fine rifle by the way. I like everything about it!
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Hi Louie: the 16 lines per inch is so well done it looked finer. Every thing about your rifle is very well done. IIRC Creamer made a pistol that Andrew Jackson had.
Smylee and Louie,
The lock I made for Bob Browner was for the copy of the Andrew Jackson pistol.
I should have mentioned that.
The Creamer flint locks are more art work.
The J&S Hawken that's barrel stamped Hoffman&Campbell was another upscale
St.Louis rifle but it was not in the class of this fullstock.The H&C was nice walnut
with silver bands around the breech and checkering on the grip.It was a bit worse
for wear when I looked at it at Tom Dawson's home back in 1968(I think).
Bob Roller
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Buffaload.
The barrel is 12 15/16 inches long, 1 inch at the breech and 59/64 at the muzzle..LP
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What a fantastic thread. A beautiful rifle as well.
Now, how about another thread concerning and pictures of a Lewis Airgun?
As beautiful as the Clark's gun was/is, I am fascinated by the descriptions and use that Lewis made of his airgun in the travels to the Northwest and back.
He described using it to kill several "goats" antelope. And was readied for a possible attack by natives. So it was a formidable gun.
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Louie,
Thanks so much for that great info.
I'll have to see if I can find those previous threads.
Jeff
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Great high resolution pix of the original here.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39426.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39426.0)
Jeff
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Thank you Louie.
Ed
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Louie, that rifle you made is superb! And Creamer's locks are things of great beauty. I always thought of the lock as a mechanical device, but you have shown me that they can be, and are, beautiful.
Having checkered a great many guns, I did take a close look at the rifling. The only old rifle that I have was made in 1873, and it also had that flat checkering in the wrist area. What type of checkering tools did you use? Something modified from the normal vee-toothed cutters and spacers?
I do not think I am going to checker the Rupp replica that I am building, but ya never know!
Craig
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Craig you are looking at my first attempt at using a checkering tool. I borrowed it from Howard. On a couple of pistols that I have made (Kunz and Mills ) I did the flat top checkering. I did those one line at a time with a tool I made from a piece of hacksaw blade. I cut the first line then made a double pointed sctibe to lay out the second line and then cut with single line home made cutter.. It worked. But too someone who knows what they are doing probably sounds horrible. But on this rifle I borrowed the 16 line double cut tool and used it. I just didn't cut it all the way to a point.. Attaching a photo of the Mills copy checkering . Louie
(https://preview.ibb.co/mqqgFJ/PICT0015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dNJq9d)
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The 'problem' with Louie is just that he's so good, he makes everything look easy!
John
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Superb job Louie! You have set a high bar for the rest of us.
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What a fantastic rifle, Louie. Making it in its original flint form was perfect. On my round-the-country trip with my wife and kids in 2013-14 when I visited you, one goal was to see that original rifle in the museum, but it was locked up and unavailable to us. That disappointment is significantly assuaged by seeing your rifle now. I sense that you have the same adoration for William Clark that I have. Thank you for building and presenting your wonder for us to enjoy.
Bill Paton
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Louie, I knew you could do it, the 14 1/4 inch pull will be just fine, Is it just a coincidence that you unveiled this fine piece just two week before my birthday?...
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Magnificent, Louie!
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That is some very convincing work, Louie!!!! Fantastic! This is one rifle I have wanted to build for some time.
Curtis
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Curtis, There is always room for one more copy.
It takes more than it once did to wind me up. But seeing this rifle sure did the job.
My dad would say "Now that job will try you out !" This rifle tried me out.. Looking at photos and trying get the parts made as close as possible . Looking at another photo and it having a different look. I threw more than one part in the can and started over. But I did enjoyed watching it take shape and glad I did it..
Thanks to everyone for your comments.
Louie