AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Blacksmoke on July 07, 2018, 06:39:01 PM
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Hi folks. I just came across a posting regarding the " Doug Joy" cased longrifle which is featured in Cowan's catalogue for auction in Oct. Anyway here are some additional photos of that rifle. Also it will be on display in the NMLRA Museum at Friendship IN for the fall shoot. Then there is to be published an article in MB Aug. edition explain the history of this piece.
Here are some more photos:(http://) Sorry - having trouble with adding photos
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OK here are the photos:(https://image.ibb.co/i6092T/13.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/dwp2NT/005.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/eJJ7p8/001.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/kXXp2T/img084.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/gKbhNT/img083.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/kgghNT/img081.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/ckHYU8/img080.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/gBiU2T/img078.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/c9LpQ6/004.jpg)
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I found one more photo:(https://image.ibb.co/mX8UK8/03.jpg)
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Gorgeous Rifle!
Mr. Toenjes really created a masterpiece. Are the eagles painted on, or enameled?
It is lovely how the silver inlay takes the place of carving, and the stock wood that he selected is top notch!
Thank you for posting the pictures of this handsome rifle.
Craig
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Craig: Regarding the Eagles on this rifle - they are scrimshawed on fossil ivory which is in turn inlayed into the maple stock and bordered by silver wire inlay. The image of the Eagle looking straight at you is magnified X3. The cheekrest Eagle is actual size.
I take no credit for the scrimshaw as it was done by a mentor of mine from Bellingham WA. He was one the "group of ten" from the northwest west coast. Back in the 80"s his work could be found at "fisherman's wharf " in San Francisco. Since his death in 2006 his work has become priceless. The rifle is entirely silver mounted with gold overlays and inlays. I am not sure what Cowan's auction have estimated the value of the entire project is but I suspect it is approaching 6 figures. Hugh Toenjes
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How's it shoot? Cheek smacker?
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Daryl: Sorry I can not give an account as to it's actual performance in the field as the client did not want me to shoot it. Even though I hand cut the rifling I was not proofing barrels before I built a rifle around them in the early 80's. However the performance of other barrels of the same cal. .50 with the same configuration of rifling shot excellent groups at 100 yds. As far as I can tell the cased rifle as pictured was never fired in it's 35yr. history. With the 4 and 1/2 inch but drop along with an inch of cast off which was built into the stock, I doubt there would be an issue with "cheek slap" Hugh Toenjes
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Here's one more photo that I found regarding the Doug Joy rifle (https://image.ibb.co/iU3Jgo/09.jpg)le:
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What school of gunmaking would that be described as?
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With that high level of work he can start his own school !
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Hi folks. I just came across a posting regarding the " Doug Joy" cased longrifle which is featured in Cowan's catalogue for auction in Oct. Anyway here are some additional photos of that rifle. Also it will be on display in the NMLRA Museum at Friendship IN for the fall shoot. Then there is to be published an article in MB Aug. edition explain the history of this piece.
Here are some more photos:(http://) Sorry - having trouble with adding photos
I just did a search at Cowan's Auction for this gun and nothing turned up (can you post a link?) so maybe you could help me with some questions. Does it have a reserve? Is this a German Silver mounted gun or Sterling/Fine/Coin? Does this type of work normally bring six figures?
How does one arrange to have a piece of work displayed at the NMLRA Museum? Can just anyone have their work displayed their with the proper arrangements?
Who exactly are the "group of ten" and what are their significance?
Curious as items like this rarely come up for auction.
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Blacksmoke, I truly appreciate the response.
Knowing how it was done, I am even more impressed by the quality of Mr. Toenjes work. Does make me wish I had gotten involved in flintlock rifles at a much earlier age. Or had continued with the muzzleloader shooting and working on that I was involved in back when I was 15 (1960). I sure missed out on a lot of fun during those intervening years!
Craig
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Hi Mike,
I believe Hugh told me it will be up for auction at Cowan's sometime this fall. I don't know if a reserve was established but Cowan's estimated a beginning price of around $75,000 or more. Hugh can correct me if I am wrong. I believe all of the silver is fine silver not sterling. Both Hugh and I prefer fine silver for wire and inlays because it does not tarnish as quickly. I believe the current president of NMLRA saw Hugh's gun at the Las Vegas gun show this year and asked the owner to allow the NMLRA to exhibit it in the museum this fall. Then I guess it is off to auction. The gun is owned by the original owner's daughter. Muzzlebasts will have a story about this fall. The gun is clearly a contemporary piece only loosely aligned with any historical school but that is what the client wanted. For folks like me, who struggle to be a good gun builder, it is sobering to be reminded that this was one of Hugh's earlier guns. Some folks may remember Hugh's cased long rifle that he built as his masterpiece submission to the Custom Gunmakers Guild. That was another remarkable piece that I believe he sold recently for close to 6 figures. Hugh also builds historically correct rifles and fowlers and does superb restoration work. I had fun consulting with him recently on restoration of some high end British guns. In the process, we became good friends and speak often on the phone. His hand-rifled barrels are works of art all by themselves.
dave
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Well that's interesting. So, if I contact the NMLRA President I can arrange to have the guns I'm trying to sell displayed in the NMLRA Museum? It's amazing the things you find out when you ask the right questions. I'll call the President tomorrow and find out for sure. That may be worth the price of membership.
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Guns like these are not made in 80 to 150 hours. Some take thousands of hours. It really stands out in guns of this quality.
Mr. Black smoke is a true Master wether anyone likes the term or not..!
Everyone has there own unique style. Whether fancy or not. Just saying.
Oldtravler
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Blacksmoke makes a Contemporary Style longrifle. It does not strongly relate to any traditional schools. He does it with a total mastery of his tools and materials.
Not everyone likes this style but that is a matter of taste. You cannot fault his craftsmanship. And it is worth what a buyer will pay.
I am a traditionalist myself. But I cannot fault Hugh’s work and he don’t care if I don’t like it 😌
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Thanks Dave, for helping to answer some folks questions. Oldtravler 61 is correct the kind of rifle pictured here is not made in a few days,weeks, months or even years. This one took me 3 years and a divorce. I cannot tell you the exact number of hours except most days I was up at 5;am worked for two hrs. then went to my reg. job and after dinner worked till midnight most nights. All parts are fashioned by hand using hand tools. I do not use pre carved stocks or ready made barrels or ready made locks. I do not have a lathe, milling machine or a stock duplicator! Yes the silver is fine silver, the gold is fine gold, the wood was the finest curly maple from Slippery Rock PA. The scrimshaw was done by Kelly Mullford of Bellingham WA. Who was known up and down the west coast as a master artisan working in fossil ivory. During the 1980's his work was gobled up by the scrimshaw collectors. I have seen some of his work sell for $10,000 , $20,000 and beyond!
This rifle was influenced mainly by Allentown/Bethlehem school and Lehigh school circa:1800. And of course my own interpretation of those schools. Today we are blessed by multimedia to give us all manor of access to longrifles of old. So it easy to be influenced by a number of historic makers and thier schools. The art work on this rifle was concokted between the the client and myself. I was not allowed lisence to do what I thought was classic for a period longrifle. Anyway thanks guys for all the positive comments. I will try to keep you up dated as to the happenings with this piece. Hugh Toenjes
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I hear from people in the collecting community that the market for both contemporary and antique muzzleloading rifles is pretty soft at the moment. A lot of large collections are being sold off at the moment due to old age/death of the collectors. I wish the owner luck in the auction.
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Stunning work for sure! I bet the original owner agreed it was worth every penny they paid for it. It will definitely be interesting to see what it goes for at auction.
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I hear from people in the collecting community that the market for both contemporary and antique muzzleloading rifles is pretty soft at the moment. A lot of large collections are being sold off at the moment due to old age/death of the collectors. I wish the owner luck in the auction.
I'm really curious about just exactly where the market for (already built) professionally built, better quality longrifles is right now... I've seen, and bought quite a few that sold at what I would consider a bargain price. There have been many on this forum that have been for sale for weeks only to be lowered to "starving artist" prices or removed completely. That Mark Elliott Chunk gun comes to mind. It was sad that he had to let it go for the price he did. What a fine piece of work. I'd like to get some feedback from some of the dealers/vendors at CLA this year.
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Hugh Toenjes what a beautiful piece of work ,your talent is outstanding . It's easy to see that you enjoy your work as it is expressed in the amount of time and dedication it takes to accomplish a project such as this . Simply Amazing Sir . Ron Wehmeyer
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Ron: Thanks very much for your endorsement of my artisanship. At this point photos are the only tools that I have to exhibit such work. But just a reminder this cased set will be on display at the NMLRA MUSEUM Sept. 8th. - Sept. 16.
Also the so called "masterpiece Rifle" will be on display along side of the "Doug Joy" rifle. This will be the last time that these two works of art will be along side one another. The "masterpiece Rifle" now has a new owner and yes Dave is correct - it went for six figures. Anyway thanks for looking, Hugh Toenjes
'
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It's truly a shame that someone with Hugh's obvious superior talents doesn't spend more time here helping others learn the skills and techniques it requires to build a rifle such as this.
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Hi,
Actually Mike, Hugh has taught courses at Trinidad(?) gunsmithing school in Colorado, he has had a steady stream of younger understudies working with him over the years, and he will be teaching at Friendship this year. He asked me to join him in doing that but my commitments to Dixon's takes all the extra time I have available right now. Hugh welcomes students.
dave
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Mr. Toenjes offered to put me up in his home for a week and show me the basics of making these fine rifles. I might add this was the first time I ever met him!
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Hi,
Actually Mike, Hugh has taught courses at Trinidad(?) gunsmithing school in Colorado, he has had a steady stream of younger understudies working with him over the years, and he will be teaching at Friendship this year. He asked me to join him in doing that but my commitments to Dixon's takes all the extra time I have available right now. Hugh welcomes students.
dave
If we all taught elsewhere and not here we wouldn't have much of a forum would we? I'm probably wrong, but it seems he just pops in when he has a gun he's currently promoting. No rules against that sort of thing but it would be nice if he participated and helped teach like the rest of us here that have been at this for a long time.
What's the deal at F-ship? Is this an organized pay up front class or something similar to what was/is done on the back porch of Gunmakers hall? This could be an excellent opportunity for him to demonstrate his wire inlay technique since it's his main method of decoration. Of course I'm not the one to suggest how or what he demonstrates/teaches, just something I myself might be interested in. I should drive down for a couple days and observe his technique. Maybe in trade I could teach him how to work at break neck speed and ruin his body parts! (my only area of expertise ) ;D
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Hi Mike, From what I understand at this point the NMLRA have a new "educational" building at Friendship. And the powers that be there are wanting top notch artisans who can teach the various skills of muzzle loading making to teach those skills at the new building. This is to be by invitation only. The students will be charged a fee per day. The price has not been set yet but the details are being worked out this week and will be published in the Aug. issue of Muzzle Blasts. It will be similar to the classes taught at WKU for primitive arms making. Only this time the students will not be required to bring their own materials and tools. As I understand the NMLRA will be supplying all the materials and tools needed which will in turn become property of that organization for future education. The classes will need to have a minimum of 6 students and no more than 12. I will be teaching the same curriculum that I taught at Trinidad State. It is a 5 day course. I will have more info at the end of the week. Hugh Toenjes
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Good to hear they're finally getting the ball rolling with that project. I hope that building hasn't been sitting idle all this time, they built it more than 15 years ago with money confiscated from the Gunmaker's Hall committee. About 15-20 years ago (maybe it was 10 or 12?) One of the Vice Presidents had contacted me to teach in that building. After many phone calls back and forth the ball was dropped and I never heard anything about it again.....oh well. ::) If they get the program going for real I'd gladly volunteer to teach for a week after I retire in a couple years, as long as they cover my expenses.
What was the curriculum you taught at Trinidad? It's always difficult to know what you need to teach, there are so many aspects that could be covered and such a relatively short time to do it in, as you know, 5 days isn't much time to teach such a broad set of skills.
I hope it's cool down there while you're there, that can be a miserable place weather wise to spend a week. They had talked about air conditioning that building when it was first built, but I don't know if that ever got past the talking stage.
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This rifle will be on display at friendship in the education building during our fall shoot. Yes the education building has been a great asset to the association and is used on a regular basis. The biggest problem we have is getting people to come do classes and teach. Mr. Toenjes has agreed to do a class on the beginning of wire inlay. He has been overly accommodating to the association and it has been an honor to speak with him on numerous occasions. There will also be numerous other rifles on display with this rifle as well. The display will be called Oddity and Rarity we will have everything from this rifle as well as rifles that maybe of a somewhat odd nature.
Joe Hill
President NMLRA