AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: JB on August 01, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
-
My Flint lock loads pretty hard. See attached video. I'm using .490 balls that I cast. .15 patch material with bore butter. Is the lube wrong? Should I be using something else. I want to cut patches at the barrel - as I find that more enjoyable. The pre cut patches I buy with bore butter on them already loads easier, but I per prefer not to use them..
It is even very hard to push the ball down with the ram rod. Easier to use the Steel Range rod that I have. I'd like to do a woods walk some day, but I don't think I can do that with my current set up..
any thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pEvIE9zJx4
-
Right off, your patch material is too thick by about a factor of ten! Seriously, it's hard to give advice about your load without knowing the actual, measured bore diameter (land-to-land) of your barrel. Have you miked your balls or are you assuming they are .490 because that is what the mould is marked? Your lube may be a problem. I know my rifles load harder with a "grease-type" lube. Try spit and see what that does for you. Another lube I like is neatsfoot oil. Experimenting with the various components is part of the fun of muzzleloading.
-
Go to a fabric store and buy a half yard of Pocket Drill. It's sturdy stuff and thinner than that pillow tick you're using.
-
Judging by how hard you have to pound the ball down that is an overly tight patch/ball combination. Tight, a firm fit, is good, but it should not be that difficult to get the ball started, just a tap to start then shove that ball home. You should be able to do it with the ramrod that came on the gun, just as you'll need to do on a woods walk. I would begin by experimenting with a thinner patch material, if that is no improvement then a smaller ball with the same patch material you are using. As L. Akers mentioned, when target shooting, try plain ol spit as a lube, it is all I ever use.
Also, welcome to ALR!
dave
-
Your load is not too tight, your patches not too thick.
Change to a liquid lube. Any variation of Moose Milk.
Ball is loading easily with the short starter. From that point on, it's just putting the hall on the powder.
Unless your bore is really rough, with the proper lube, it should slide down easily to the powder charge.
-
Yes, everything needs working with. When you add up the manufacturing tolerances of the balls (or moulds if making your own), the bore and rifling, and the variations of fabric fibers/weaves/etc, AND the plethora of lubes available (if you do non-traditional)
Then you see why "X ball with Z patch in Y bore" doesn't always (rarely does) add up to the same fitment. This is the first thing to work out- Fitment of the ball and patch combo in -your- bore.
Then you can work out the details of which lube you like best, and then work out the powder charges for best performance.
It's a process. An enjoyable and rewarding process that may take several range sessions to work out.
I suspect that you forgot a zero in your patch material specification of the OP. Personally I prefer a thicker patch to a thinner patch and will vary the ball size down to make that happen rather than use a too-thin patch. Thicker patching carries more lube and does a better job of wiping down crud from the last shot. If it's too loose, it will lead to progressively harder loadings-so there's a fine line to walk. Enjoy the process. There's a billion words here at ALR on the subject, maybe two.
Patches should be re-usable when retrieved (but they taste like all *&^% when you spit lube 'em the second time :o)
I use a ball starter, some don't.
-
Right off, your patch material is too thick by about a factor of ten! Seriously, it's hard to give advice about your load without knowing the actual, measured bore diameter (land-to-land) of your barrel. Have you miked your balls or are you assuming they are .490 because that is what the mould is marked? Your lube may be a problem. I know my rifles load harder with a "grease-type" lube. Try spit and see what that does for you. Another lube I like is neatsfoot oil. Experimenting with the various components is part of the fun of muzzleloading.
Sorry, Its .015. My mold is marked .490.
(https://preview.ibb.co/g6wRYz/Ticking_strips.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bDjr0e)
-
Go to a fabric store and buy a half yard of Pocket Drill. It's sturdy stuff and thinner than that pillow tick you're using.
Thanks you.
-
Your load is not too tight, your patches not too thick.
Change to a liquid lube. Any variation of Moose Milk.
Ball is loading easily with the short starter. From that point on, it's just putting the hall on the powder.
Unless your bore is really rough, with the proper lube, it should slide down easily to the powder charge.
Thank you. I'll buy some moose milk. So when I use the moose milk? I just soak them - let them dry and then use as needed? Or what is the process.?
My Bore is still like new.
Thank you.
-
I agree with small patch to a different lube, smooth your crown a little, sharpen your knife and run a damp cleaning patch down after each shot to see if you have a lot of fouling. Most times a tight load combo will shoot cleaner in my experience. Get your patches wet with liquid lube.
-
I also agree with Smallpatch, go to a liquid lube or spit patch. I personally like Mr Flintlock. The other thing to remember is to wash your patch material at least twice before using it. It comes loaded with starch and other things. Washing will make it a lot softer and absorb lube better.
Mark
-
Some barrels are just easier to load than others. My GRRW barrel is the easiest I’ve ever had, slightly choked, tighter at the muzzle. Once I’m a foot or two in with the ball, it goes very easy. My other barrels (Getz, Sharon, Green Mountain) require consistent pressure all the way.
I, like others, doubt your loss is too tight. I used to think that way but got converted by Daryl. If it’s not tight enough, and the patch is not carrying enough lube, then you are not cleaning the bore with each subsequent loading and fouling just gets worse and worse.
What do your fired patches look like?
-
Thanks guys. You gave me a lot to think about. I'm going to try a different lube. I'm sure my patch was too dry. I know that I didn't have a lot of that bore butter on it. I"m going to pick up some neatsfoot oil to try. I can buy that a 1/2 a mile down the road. I"ll also order some moose milk too.
Thanks for all the advise.
JB
-
Since you are casting your own balls, are you using pure lead? Impure lead creates harder balls, and they can be harder to load. My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load.
-
"My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load."
That's been my experience also. Plain old olive oil is far superior to Bore Butter.
I'd tell you what I use for patch lube, but you would call me insane.
-
Since you are casting your own balls, are you using pure lead? Impure lead creates harder balls, and they can be harder to load. My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load.
Thank you.. Pure lead.
-
"My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load."
That's been my experience also. Plain old olive oil is far superior to Bore Butter.
I'd tell you what I use for patch lube, but you would call me insane.
Thank you. I bought some Neatsfoot and some olive oil today. I look forward to trying it.
-
"My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load."
That's been my experience also. Plain old olive oil is far superior to Bore Butter.
I'd tell you what I use for patch lube, but you would call me insane.
Probably Liquid Wrench or something along those lines. Insane? Probably not. Semisane? Perhaps. ;D
-
With a tight fitting ball and patch combo, and a liquid lube, it should load easily, and not need cleaning between shots.
-
I was planning on going shooting tomorrow, so of course I read this thread.
I didn't know you had to wash you patch material even once, much less twice.
Time to start a load of wash...
-
Again I agree with smallpatch, the only reason to run a clean patch down would be to see how much fouling you have and if you have a lot of fouling then you can change lube,patch material, or ball size.,
-
I was planning on going shooting tomorrow, so of course I read this thread.
I didn't know you had to wash you patch material even once, much less twice.
Time to start a load of wash...
Most material has a sizing in it that is from the manufacturing process. It needs to be washed out to let the material fluff up and take the lube.
-
"My experience with thick lubes, especially Bore Butter, is that it is substantially harder to load."
That's been my experience also. Plain old olive oil is far superior to Bore Butter.
I'd tell you what I use for patch lube, but you would call me insane.
Probably Liquid Wrench or something along those lines. Insane? Probably not. Semisane? Perhaps. ;D
OH THE HORROR! ;)
-
I cut my patches at home from cotton fabric I buy by the yard. Just bring a micrometer when you shop.
I recently tried a looser combo because of tendonitis in my wrist. I put several patches in my mouth and held them there like leaf tobacco. When I needed one, ane well soaked patch was dispensed. It was my most accurate load ever with the rifle. No need to swab at all. I loaded very easy.
Don't dismiss good old spit.
I have not found that the tightest combos are always the most accurate.
-
My favorite easy loading lube is Original formula LeHigh Valley. I had a .40 barrel that was almost impossible to load the 2nd or 3rd shot and the LHV really got that barrel loading slick. You could also try Canola oil, I've been using it a little and so far really like it.
When they say to run a clean patch down the barrel I don't think they mean a clean, DRY, patch. Rather one soaked with spit or water. A dry patch usually gets stuck down the bore.
-
Whats the best way to apply the lube? Just soak the Strip of material then ring it out? My material will be in strips- as I want to cut them at the muzzle. Then just toss the strip in a container in my bag?
JB
-
IF THAT IS A European .50 THE BORE WILL BE .492 OR 12.5mm and that may be the problem,
incompatible dimensions.Have some one that knows how to use a telescoping gauge (snap gauge)
and get a correct dimension.
Bob Roller
-
IF THAT IS A European .50 THE BORE WILL BE .492 OR 12.5mm and that may be the problem,
incompatible dimensions.Have some one that knows how to use a telescoping gauge (snap gauge)
and get a correct dimension.
Bob Roller
This is a Pedersoli pennsylvania Flint lock .50 cal.
-
Dry patch - dirty bore - stuck rod - nasty chore!
-
Bob Roller has the right idea, I think. I've seen several that seemed tight and/or have shallow grooves. .480 balls are available, .485, maybe not. I would try .480 with thicker patch if all the other suggestions don't pan out. 490 with a thin patch is also worth trying, but it needs to be tough stuff.
-
Some years back there was a test did and put in Muzzleblasts tap water, spit and if you are bold urine.None of the slick snotty stuff placed very high.Urine, I got a bold buddy.
-
Some years back there was a test did and put in Muzzleblasts tap water, spit and if you are bold urine.None of the slick snotty stuff placed very high.Urine, I got a bold buddy.
Been using tap water for years now, because I run out of spit :).
Urine, no, but next time someone picks up one of my patches at a chunk match, maybe I'll talk about it just to see what happens..."Doesn't that patch look good! Haven't had any burns or tearing since I switched from water to urine...".
-
Make your own Moose Milk. Ballistol is usually pretty available. One part Ballistol to 7-10 parts water.
I'm still working on a gallon of water soluble oil I got years ago at NAPA. With my mixture, that equals around 8 gallons of lube, if you don't count the amount I use for lube when drilling metals.
-
BOTH elbows down atop the bench, chest squarely against the rear of the bench, buttstock/comb solidly into the shoulder and aside the neck, forward hand at forearm resting atop a rolled up shooting mat delivers a totally static hold!!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1776/43863089721_f0c34c8538_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29Q2NpB)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29Q2NpB) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1840/43131694114_5028f3fa2a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28HpcYw)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/28HpcYw) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/934/42040118090_effabe6fb8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/273WAsf)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/273WAsf) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
-
To apply liquid lube, soak the material in the liquid until saturated, then gently squeeze out the excess back into the vessel. Your patch material should be very wet, not just damp. When you start a ball at the muzzle, the lube should squirt in every direction.
Use your thumb and some 320 - 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to polish your muzzle. You need to break the sharp corners on both sides of the crown.
Use a Vernier's calipers to measure patch material. A micrometer has too large an anvil and will give you a reading indicating thicker material than actual. Think about how the rifling squeezes the material between it and the ball...that's the effect you want to measure. And squeeze the calipers as hard as you can with your thumb and forefinger to get it as squashed as you can...then take the reading.
-
To apply liquid lube, soak the material in the liquid until saturated, then gently squeeze out the excess back into the vessel. Your patch material should be very wet, not just damp. When you start a ball at the muzzle, the lube should squirt in every direction.
Use your thumb and some 320 - 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to polish your muzzle. You need to break the sharp corners on both sides of the crown.
Use a Vernier's calipers to measure patch material. A micrometer has too large an anvil and will give you a reading indicating thicker material than actual. Think about how the rifling squeezes the material between it and the ball...that's the effect you want to measure. And squeeze the calipers as hard as you can with your thumb and forefinger to get it as squashed as you can...then take the reading.
Thank you. Thanks for the information.
-
I also agree with Smallpatch, go to a liquid lube or spit patch. I personally like Mr Flintlock. The other thing to remember is to wash your patch material at least twice before using it. It comes loaded with starch and other things. Washing will make it a lot softer and absorb lube better.
Mark
In addition to washing it as Mark says, don't use any fabric softener in the wash or in dryer (i.e. dryer sheets) or the patches will resist absorbing the lube.
Mole Eyes
-
Go to a fabric store and buy a half yard of Pocket Drill. It's sturdy stuff and thinner than that pillow tick you're using.
This. I have used the Pocket Drill from Joanne Fabrics for years. It is the best patch material I have ever tried. Wash it first to remove the sizing. I lube it with jojoba oil. At shooting matches, where I fire immediately after loading, I've also had success using spit. Buy at least a yard. Once you discover how easy it loads you'll be shooting a lot more.
-
Mr. Roller hit the nail on the head. The Pedersoli 50's have a tight bore. I've had two over the years and a .490 ball and standard patching is a bear to start with any lube. But once started it will go down Ok with a wood rammer but not the wood rammer Pedersoli provides that's for sure. Plus a liquid lube really helps. An American made 50 cal. with a true .500 bore and .524 groove like a green mountain is a breeze to load with a .490 ball and a .015 patch. The Pedersoli bore might be sized correctly but the problem might be that since that Pedersoli only has .005 inch grooves there isn't a whole lot of space for a patch to squeeze into. A .480 ball and a thicker is what is needed with the Pedersoli.
Bob
-
Mr. Roller hit the nail on the head. The Pedersoli 50's have a tight bore. I've had two over the years and a .490 ball and standard patching is a bear to start with any lube. But once started it will go down Ok with a wood rammer but not the wood rammer Pedersoli provides that's for sure. Plus a liquid lube really helps. An American made 50 cal. with a true .500 bore and .524 groove like a green mountain is a breeze to load with a .490 ball and a .015 patch. The Pedersoli bore might be sized correctly but the problem might be that since that Pedersoli only has .005 inch grooves there isn't a whole lot of space for a patch to squeeze into. A .480 ball and a thicker is what is needed with the Pedersoli.
Bob
Thank you. I ordered some of those .480 balls last week. I hope to try them this week some time. I hope your right.
JB
-
I use the .480 balls with a .022" awning canvas patch in my .50cal. Rice barrels. Loads easy and fills up the deep rifling. With the rounded muzzle the patches don't cut.
-
My advice, for what it's worth, is to ditch the Bore Butter, polish the muzzle crown and use either Hoppes #9 BP lube (easiest) or mink oil (excellent as well). My load is a .490" home cast ball, .024" canvas and either Hoppes or mink oil. The crowns are smooth and the combo seats more easily than with thinner patch material.
-
Well - I used some.480 balls and some .018 patches today. This combo works great. Loads easy and seams to be more accurate as well. It was fun to shoot, and didn't hurt my hand to load. I shot it about 25 times and was able to use the wooden ram rod that came with the gun. For lube, I like my spit the best, but also used bore butter and neats foot.
Thanks everyone for all of the advise.
jb
-
What I have done to adjust my patch thickness is to add a few zig zag rolling papers to the patch.
Place the patch over the bore, add one, two, or three rolling papers on top and then place the ball on top of all this.
I found that 2 zig-zag papers really tightened up my groups at 50 yards.
I do get a strange look from the guys a 7-11 when I ask for rolling papers.
-
The very first thing needing attention is the crown just as Taylor noted.
As Hanshi wrote, ditch the lip balm.(bore butter w/camphor)).
Hit the starter ONCE.If the patched ball does not go into the muzzle with one blow, either hit it harder or or "fix" the crown. Patches should not be cut by the crown.
You should be able to load a patched.005" undersize ball with a .0220" patch - easily - some of our women proper .018" patches. ;)
-
JB, how many shots have you made with that rifle?
I ask because I also shoot a Pedersoli. I bought it new and the new barrel had some noticeable drag during loading.
Try using an easier loading patch/ball combo and shoot the snot out of it for a while... 100 shots or more. I did this with mine and noticed it getting easier to load as the jagged sharp edges of the rifling wore in.
Mike
-
JB, how many shots have you made with that rifle?
I ask because I also shoot a Pedersoli. I bought it new and the new barrel had some noticeable drag during loading.
Try using an easier loading patch/ball combo and shoot the snot out of it for a while... 100 shots or more. I did this with mine and noticed it getting easier to load as the jagged sharp edges of the rifling wore in.
Mike
I've shot it again today. I've got about 100 -150ish shots so far. I'm now using a .480 ball and a .018 and she is working great now. Easy to load and seams just as accurate, and now I can load with the wooden ram rod that it came with. Someone else suggested the smaller balls and they work good. The.490 balls still load very hard, even with .015 patches.
This Sunday, I'm going to the Toledo muzzle loaders club shoot. I hope to meet some guys and maybe going to join the club. I look forward to learning more about these flint locks. I really enjoy them.
Thanks for the advise.
JB
-
Glad you're having an easier time loading now.
Enjoy the shoot!
Mike