AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: conquerordie on August 15, 2018, 01:07:13 AM
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Ive started building a TRS Ferguson kit. Using the search button and PM conversation with some of the members here, I see that the lock on these TRS Ferguson stocks are inlet too far back, and to drill the vent, it ends up in the breech screw. Move the lock foward less than 3/16" and it would be perfect position. So my options that I see are 1) build scratch from a plank or 2) fill in the lock inlet with wood and re inlet the lock. The first option is a lot more work, but seems the easier fix to me. The second I'm not sure yet how to proceed, but would save a European walnut stock that is fairly well inlet for the rest of the project.
So what would you guys do? I'm not sure how to fill in a lock inlet. I've seen short descriptions of how it could be done. Being Ferguson's are weak in the lock and breech area, I'm hesitant to cause more weakness by improperly filling in the lock inlet. Decisions decisions! Thank you for any ideas that you can share.
Greg
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I would not spend a minuet on a stock that can not be properly inletted.
The gentleman's agreement is that they owe you a blank, at very least. Call them and see what they have to say.
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I'd move the barrel back till it's clear, or counter bore the breechplug to get it there.
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Hi Greg,
Yes call TRS because they need to make this right. However, before you do, the screw plug has a flat on the side backing the powder chamber. Is that flat deep enough to allow the plug to clear your vent hole? On my Ferguson, which I built from a blank but used TRS published plans, my vent hole would also hit the plug but the flat gives it all the clearance it needs.
dave
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Dave,
Yeah when I line it all up, the edge of the pan nearest to the frizzen is right on that flat. Where I to drill the vent centered in the pan, I'm well behind that.
From what I've been shown, Naragansett Ferguson's, using TRS parts, had their breech screws notched to fix this problem. The parts are so expensive If hate to botch it.
The whole barrel is inlet, so I don't think I can move the breech back, sliding the barrel back and aligning the chamber with the lock inlet. That left me with the bright idea of altering the lock inlet.
I will call them. Id love them to make it right, but I'm afraid the wait time it takes to get a new one would kill me!
Greg
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I wish you could post some pictures to describe what you are talking about. I built a Ferguson rifle from TRS components, building it just as the parts came to me, and there were absolutely no issues. I certainly didn't have to move the lock or the barrel.
(https://preview.ibb.co/b6rWAp/DSC03962.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dQkrAp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dPyYO9/DSC03950.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jo3039)
(https://preview.ibb.co/heG9wU/DSC03938.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eDfrAp)
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I had the same experience as Taylor. Built a Ferguson from TRS parts including a partially inlet stock. I was not wild about their inletting but it all cleaned up fine. I had room to put a vent liner in it. And, as Smart Dog described, the flat in the falling breech gave me the room to put the touch hole in the correct location with respect to the pan / lock inlet. Now all that is not to say that someone didn't put the stock blank in the machine improperly in your case. But look at where my touch hole is with respect to the screw breech....
(https://preview.ibb.co/iVnD89/My_Ferguson_8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/coY9gU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gJqY89/My_Ferguson_12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkF0o9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fJeRT9/My_Ferguson_11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrAY89)
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Thank you for the pics. I've studied both of them while researching all the discussions on the ferguson that have taken place. I will post some pics later today. I was hoping using a white lghtning liner might give me a chance as the hole that is drilled in the barrel might get to the flat on the breech screw. But it would be close.
davec2 my Ferguson also has the grain in the wrist issue just like yours. I plan on copying your method you used to fix it. Has yours held up well?
Greg
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Wouldn't trying to add a vent liner exacerbate the problem? I have also built a TRS Ferguson, but from a blank so I can not relate to the problem you are describing. I laid mine out so the vent hole entered the chamber just forward of the flat on the breech screw, by approximately 1/16-1/8" (I don't have the rifle in front of me to measure). I used a 1/16 drilled simple vent hole, and ignition time is indistinguishable from any rifle I own with a vent liner installed.
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Ok,
Here are some pics of what I’m dealing with. The lock is just sitting in the inlet as it came. I have not refined it. I don’t see how it will change much.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mXBCkp/8461_F86_F_A972_429_A_99_F9_2_C7_E6_BC055_B4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gWGdQp)
K
(https://preview.ibb.co/cfNwBU/53300_F5_F_EC12_4_A6_A_B3_CC_0_F9618_BFEC4_F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dMfSJ9)
My method of finding the milled face of the breech screw is running a rod down the barrel, feeling for it to settle into the notch, and measuring. It appears to be in a similar location on all the rifles. But my lock is to far back as you can see in the pics. It’s not that far, but I don’t want to have to alter the breech screw with a notch to allow ignition
A conversation with TRS today went this way: it’s suppose to be that way, I just have to notch it a little, and that European guns often were made this way. I’m not really buying that.
FlintFan I’d prefer to go with a hole and no liner but I’d be drilling one heck of a vent to make it work as is. If I drill for a vent liner the hole is obviously larger than a typical vent. It might be large enough to open up a path to the front of the milled face for the powder chamber. I’m sure there is a way to make this work, and it’s gonna be a great rifle. Just a few bumps in the road to overcome. Thanks again everyone for helping me out.
Greg
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Just drill an angled vent hole. There is no rule that says it must be drilled at 90 degrees.
Just take some measurements and work it out on paper. You should be able to come up with an angle you would need to set the barrel at to make the hole come out where you want it. From the photograph, it doesn't look like it would need to be set at an excessive angle.
If you still need to notch the milled flat in the breech screw a small amount, that is not a big deal, especially in a Ferguson since you can easily remove the screw to clean it.
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Hi Greg,
I looked at my Ferguson, which I built from a blank, and the vent hole is nicely in front of the notch in the plug. I have a White Lightning line installed because some folks I know with older Narragansett guns had issues with slow ignition that could be caused by the long vent hole. I looked at my plans, photos of Fergusons and Bailey's book. Both the Morristown and Milwaukee guns clearly have vent holes and locks positioned as mine is. However, the Durs Egg made prototype shown in Bailey's book has the lock positioned much like yours. Either the Egg has a vent hole angled forward or the notch in the plug is deeper, or both. TRS based their parts on the Milwaukee gun so their lock positioning is not correct for that gun. However, it is apparent that some were made that way. I don't think there is any danger in deepening the notch. In fact, I see no reason it has to be flat. It could have a radiused bottom. Then you could angle the vent hole forward a tiny bit. If I was in your position, I would make a White Lightning type liner from a bar of stainless steel and drill the cone and hole angling forward.
dave
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Hi Greg,
Also, I urge you to build up the lock and mostly polish it up before fitting it in the stock. Make sure it works properly and that all the edges are in their final shape with the lock built before inletting it. That will save you tears later.
dave
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Dave,
The lock was assembled by TRS, so it's done. Seems to function well. I've only had one other lock from TRS that was built by them. It had a soft frizzen, but that lock performed great after a kasenite bath for the frizzen. I tore it down to start checking each pieces inlet. Obviously not 100% inlet, but it's not that bad. I will do as you recommend and do most finishing before inletting. Started the lockplate edges. It's when I tore it down that I noticed it's position to the breech screw. Kinda made me veer off of polishing and more on worrying about the vent! Polishing up will be a great project while I figure what to do with my lock position.
Greg
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Little off topic. Weren’t these Rifles purported to be self priming? If so what was the vent hole size? Or did I get this wrong.
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Hi,
No, they were not self priming. It was reported that you could add extra powder to the powder chamber that was then pushed up to the top of the barrel as the screw plug was closed. Then the excess powder could be swept into the pan as priming. However, any powder residue deposited in the threads above the powder chamber will result in the action jamming. The tapered threads seal above the chamber so they have little slop to accommodate powder fowling. When you load a Ferguson, you want to make sure you fill the powder chamber with exactly the right charge so no excess powder is forced into the upper threads. You prime separately.
dave
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Greetings Greg,
I built my Ferguson without commercial stock. From the classes at Bowling Green learned how to lay out stock from Golden Mean. The Brits followed it pretty close. The thing I found most challenging was the breech block thread going down toward the Triggerguard. Not sure how you would shift the barrel without leaving a gap in that area. And that area is pretty thin already. I was able to position my lock for the Touch Hole to my satisfaction, no line, and have not had a problem with ignition. But it has been awhile since I've fired it. I also was going for martial design and didn't carve the tang area. Hope photos help. If this works I credit Ed Wenger, he gave me a quick inservice this year at Bowling Green.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eqY1wU/20180815_171937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFcTbU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i4PVqp/20180815_171947.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h3gobU)
Roderic Quinn The Master-Man (https://poetandpoem.com/Roderic-Quinn/The-Master-Man)
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Greetings Greg,
I built my Ferguson without commercial stock. From the classes at Bowling Green learned how to lay out stock from Golden Mean. The Brits followed it pretty close. The thing I found most challenging was the breech block thread going down toward the Triggerguard. Not sure how you would shift the barrel without leaving a gap in that area. And that area is pretty thin already. I was able to position my lock for the Touch Hole to my satisfaction, no line, and have not had a problem with ignition. But it has been awhile since I've fired it. I also was going for martial design and didn't carve the tang area. Hope photos help. If this works I credit Ed Wenger, he gave me a quick inservice this year at Bowling Green.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eqY1wU/20180815_171937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFcTbU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i4PVqp/20180815_171947.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h3gobU)
Roderic Quinn The Master-Man (https://poetandpoem.com/Roderic-Quinn/The-Master-Man)
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OK, just thinking.. since the Furgeson's are known to leak gasses anyways?? ( originals and I suspect a few replicas? )
why not do a combination of things recommended ? notch the breech screw a bit AND drill the angled vent. the combination of methods would move the vent closer to where it needs to be?
Plus, neither would have as extreme, as each would work to meet in the middle so to speak..
Respect Always
Jonathan Bumstead
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Could we not slide the bbl. back a bit?
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Could we not slide the bbl. back a bit?
Not without great difficulty. The breech screw lug on a Ferguson is permanently affixed to the barrel, and extends down through the stock. You would have to create an oval shaped hole to slide it back. While it could be done, you would need to patch the resulting gap that was created in the stock. The "neater" fix would be to alter the vent with one or more of the suggestions listed above.
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Yeah sliding the whole barrel back would require more work in patching a weak part of the stock. I looked more into vent liners. Here’s a pic to help explain what I’m about to explain
(https://preview.ibb.co/bsuq8K/5_B6_FA4_E6_344_A_4293_B6_BD_FFCBFB80_AD2_D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g8FK2e)
Let me say this up front, I’ve never used a vent liner so correct me if I go off course. If I was to use a 5/16” vent liner I would use a letter I drillbit for the hole. Closest decimal equivalent is .272. That measurement is almost the width of the pan on this lock. If I center this hole on the pan it would open up and be slightly in front of the milled face. I don’t think the vent liner is the same thickness of the barrel, and with the cone inside, I believe I might be able to get ignition. I don’t know if I have to tools to make a custom liner, so I’m gonna have to go with store brought. I could always slightly radius the one edge of the milled face to give a little extra room if needed. Any thoughts. Again, thank you for all your help,
Greg
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Greg,
The vent liner I installed was a 5/16 white lightening from Jim Chambers. The hole did indeed open a path into the chamber in front of the flat on the breech screw. I have included some pictures of mine, but the easy, easy fix is to radius the flat on the breech face as Smart Dog suggests. I don't think there is any issue of compromising the sealing capability of the screw (not very good at best anyway...blows my hat off every time I fire it) or the strength of the falling breech in any way. A few strokes with a rat tail file and you're back in business.
(https://preview.ibb.co/doOJdK/IMG_6099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i5kmXe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kaxpkz/IMG_6098.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mFFLse)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fYWh5z/IMG_6097.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hEpDCe)
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Rereading all this, you have to consider the Fegursons would not of had a liner just a vent hole drilled and possibly not at a 90 degrees to the bore. There may be nothing wrong with the stock .
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I'd drill it for a flash hole,,,no liner. I think they are over used anyway.
A liner here is just a bigger bullseye that draws your eye to the center of something that isn't centered,,and that's the issue.
Place the flash hole as close to the center of the pan as you can and get the rest of the adjustment by angling the flash hole as others have said.
It won't be that much. I doubt you'd have to be 1/16" off center with the flash hole if you angled it to the breech screw face looking at the pencil mark and lock plate pic.
You can reduce it even more with a bit of channeling on the flat face of the breech screw. Not like that's never been done before..
You can even reshape the front outline of the pan opening up close to the bbl flat to give it some more room on that side. The effect would be that the flash hole would look centered in the pan.
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Hi Greg,
When you look into the powder chamber from the top with the screw plug removed, you will see that the opening into the threaded action is already a substantial radius. On my gun that radius clears the entire vent liner cone and then a little more. On your gun that radius would probably also clear your vent hole even if it was drilled straight in. Simply by filing the notch on the screw plug a little deeper and maybe giving it a radius and then drilling your vent hole angled a little forward you should be OK. If you install a white lightning vent liner the inside cone should clear the plug if you file the notch a bit deeper. The problem that you may encounter with the vent so close to the face of the plug, if you get much fouling on the upper threads of the screw plug, some may slough off and block the vent when you open the breech. I believe your WL liner will not reach all the way through the barrel wall to the plug. Obviously, you will want to check that and may have to file off a few threads on the liner before installing but I don't think you will have to. As you know, the barrel wall at the breech is thick so a simple vent hole could result in slow ignition after a few shots. Clearly, Durs Egg resolved these issues on the pair of guns he made one of which is the gun that Ferguson used in his demonstrations to ordnance and the King. However, on the existing ordnance guns, the lock is positioned forward as mine is and not as it is on your stock.
dave
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I want to thank everyone for the ideas. I think I have found my way forward. I'll have other questions about this build no doubt. I'll post the finished rifle for critique.
Greg