AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: yip on August 15, 2018, 11:09:23 PM
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looking for info on Buck County rifles, photos are good, looking for measurements.
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Have built a few BCs and one is shown. If more pics are wanted along w/ measurements and details....contact me at... fklehto@charter.net. Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/b37S39/P1010008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iWeJAp)
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fletho;thanks, that rifle looks fantasic, i'll email ya.
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What are you doing standing on a chair, young man! :(
Beautiful rifle Fred, as usual!!
Al J.
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At least I wasn't barefoot...thanks for the kind words....Fred
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Nice job there, Fred! All relaxed, feet propped up. Probably got some sweet iced tea right beside you!
The rifle is nice also!
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Need to gain some height....that 46" bbl is too long. .....Fred
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Flehto; doing a little reseach on a Bucks, whats your drop on that rifle? not trying to duplate you rifle just trying to get things a little straight.
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Don't know specifically....but have found that when a rifle fits me, it fits most people. I've been building spec Bucks County LRs for quite a spell and have never rec'd a complaint of not fitting the customers. If further info is needed, e-mail me.......Fred
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Thanks Fred.
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Outstanding BC rifle Fred! Perfect design for a shooter.
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Thanks Taylor....you have much more experience in building "shooters" than I, so your kind words are appreciated. My present and last build is a BC and is quite a challenge but hopefully will be completed.......Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/gNrc7e/P1010002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ie0FtK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d3Us7e/P1010003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nBKELz)
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Fred,
Beautiful BC rifle and good luck on the current one. A couple of questions. Looks like a Chamber's Golden Age lockplate, is that correct? Also, I really like the buttplate. Where did you get it from and is there a part number associated with it? Please continue to share photos as you progress with the build.
elkhorne
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Hi...yes it's a Chambers' Golden Age. The buttplate was purchased from Hedgecock and he's no longer in business. Searched the various suppliers and haven't found one yet. He listed the Bplste as a Bucks County....Fred
(https://image.ibb.co/jrBhaz/Bucks46_WLLock.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/gA5x8K/Bucks46_WLPBS.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Flehto; thats a beauiful looking rifle! now you got very interested in starting this endeaver, i sure do like the lines and hope i can do half as good, did you make the trigger?
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Hi....seeing you intend to build a BC, the invitation still stands to e-mail me. All my BC builds are from a blank and there's only one precarve available {Verner} but it has a straight combline and most BCs have a slightly curved one. I think the curved combline looks better. Years ago I made a template by tracing a Shuler BC buttstock in RCA1 and sized it on the computer. Have used it for all the BCs and I could send you a copy.
Yes....I make all the triggers and they're all cold forged. .....Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/cOFeoK/BC46_2_LOCK.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kyUThe)
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BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i did email ya about 3 days ago. i also build from a blank
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Hi...didn't receive your email at fklehto@charter.net Fred
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Hi....I certainly would be interested in your George Weiker Bucks County LR. Not so much as to the dims, but more so as to what BC features it has and whether the combline is straight or curved. The only Weiker I've seen is the one in RCA1.
I've kinda concentrated on building BCs w/ a few Lancasters and it took awhile to get the BCs "right" seeing pics of them are a little scarce. 2 members of the ALR were nice enough to send me quite a few pics which helped a lot.
I take it that George Weiker was an early BC builder because the BC in RCA1 has some BC features but hasn't fully evolved.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.....Fred
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Hey Fred! I do have in my possession one of the "infamous" Verner pre-carved stocks...;-) and I do agree with you about the slight curve in the comb-line helps the overall line of the stock. Alas, since my stock is also Lefty and is pre-inleted for the LH large Siler lock (I believe...), I'll have to pass on using the Chambers Golden Age lock on this project. Part of me wants to do the "built by A. Verner" patchbox inscription in mirror image on the (left side) patchbox lid... ;-)
Also, could I trouble you for a copy of your Shuler BC template?
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
(https://preview.ibb.co/bO8m2e/gunstocks_12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d3RH8K)
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Hi...send me your mailing address by e-mail and I'll send it to you. .....Fred
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fred; i try to e- mail ya and it don't work, something wrong with it, it gets send back to me
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Hi...sometimes people spell my name "letho" which is incorrect.
My e-mail address is fklehto@charter.net don't transpose the h & t.
The above e-mail address works fine......Fred
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It seems that Bucks' and Lehighs all seem to have a little bit of a "flat spot" si the belly curve right where the rear foot of the TG is. It's there if you look for it. Are you aware of any originals that just curved the rear foot so the curve was uninterrupted, or are they all this way as well?
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Looked at some pics of original BC LRs and didn't see a flat length at the rear finial of the TG. The curve is so slight in that length that the finial might lend itself as being what the eye sees....a flat.
I don't allow for a flat there .....in fact the ever changing arc just continues along until somewhere forward of the trigger it flattens out.....Fred
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mr bubbles; i would like to know more about this, a picture is worth a thousand words.please clearfy
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Fred,
I sent you a PM about the patchbox.
Skip
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Read your PM. I think you can also buy that Pbox.......Fred
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This is the Kuntz # 5 gun on the KRA disc on Lehigh County guns. Do you see where the curve in the belly line is somewhat interrupted by the rear foot of the TG and creates a bit of a flat spot?
(https://preview.ibb.co/dQOEFz/MG_8824r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctogvz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ccis2e/MG_8821r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bMHwTK)
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mr.bubbles; yes i can see what your talking about, thanks. how do i get that disc?
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Yeah it's a real subtle thing. You only see it if you're really looking for it. It could be the light in the photo too creating an illusion.
It might be unique to Kuntz, (one reference I found for this gun attributed it to Moll actually) but I don't really think so.
You can call or write the Kentucky Rifle Assn for it. I think it's about $20-$25. It's maybe the best single reference on Lehigh County guns out there. They probably have on on Bucks guns too, but to this point, I haven't built one of those. Fred is encouraging me to try one though.
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looking for info on Buck County rifles, photos are good, looking for measurements.
The obvious solution is you should buy some books, lots of them. Shumway's Vol I&II would be a good start as are the KRA discs mentioned above. Most folks I know that build guns to any degree at all have rather large libraries. Of course those that use only the internet as a source seem to be coming more common, but also less informed. (edited by tdg)
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mr.bubbles; yes i can see what your talking about, thanks. how do i get that disc?
Check here :
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22518.0
Dennis
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Referring to the Kuntz rifle pictured above, I suggest to you that there is no step in the bottom line of the buttstock. If you see one, it is an illusion, created by the inlet of the rear extension of the rigger guard, the abrupt squared off carving in the moulding, and the continuous line of the stock flowing rearward from the triggers. From the forward end of the lower stock moulding, the wrist is given a generous roundness, and that adds to the illusion.
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JTR,
It would be great if you could share the measurements and some of the photos of your original Bucks County rifle on here for all to see and learn. Agree that the way to get one of these rifles as close to HC right, is study, study and study! The KRF discs are great as well as some of their books but just seeing N original rifle goes a long way to learning. I've got all the supplies to build a BC and Lehigh but have been reading everything I could find on these two schools and about ready to start in soon. Than is.
elkhorne
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thanks JTR and Dennis guess i'll do more reach and stop asking dumb questions
Actually not dumb at all. Just not answerable. I'd ask what mounts, lock, and barrel profile are most common, that will give you a good place to start. I personally wouldn't know which parts to recommend as Bucks Co. guns aren't my bag. your actual measurements will depend on what parts you choose to use. As far as pictures go, Shumway's books, Kindig, and the KRA discs are probably the best choices.
In all seriousness, you really should start collecting a library of resource material. I don't know how you would go about building these with out some research.
Sorry I may have offended you. ;)
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Mike; i'm not a serious builder just like the lines of B.C., don't profess to be as good as you or anyone on here all i do is throw em together and hope for the best. i do try too improve with each one i do thats all.
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Referring to the Kuntz rifle pictured above, I suggest to you that there is no step in the bottom line of the buttstock. If you see one, it is an illusion, created by the inlet of the rear extension of the rigger guard, the abrupt squared off carving in the moulding, and the continuous line of the stock flowing rearward from the triggers. From the forward end of the lower stock moulding, the wrist is given a generous roundness, and that adds to the illusion.
I agree, and that is the devilment of photographs. We can learn a lot but also miss some things from the photo books. Pictures taken from slanting angles often help me a lot and I try to take those when photographing originals.
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Though I defer to Taylor's vastly greater experience, I must respectfully disagree that it is the angles and the light that cause an illusion of a flat spot. I do indeed believe that the rear foot itself is flat rather than curved. If the curve continued through the foot itself then the front and rear of it would be inletted deeper than the center. Though the below pictures arent the same as handling the original, I think they help with some of the detail to the area.
(https://preview.ibb.co/i8iv7e/MG_8827r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gCyTSe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kSDHLz/MG_8831r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jeCoSe)
ammonium sulfate symbol (https://aluminumsulfate.net/ammonium-sulfate)
(https://preview.ibb.co/g6MySe/MG_8855r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eZkQ7e)
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I shall make only one more attempt to persuade you that there is no step in the bottom line of this buttstock. The wrist forward of the moulding is rounded down to the small flat of the bottom line, but the area of the inlet of the trigger guard return is wider and flat, and since the rifle is rolled ever so slightly, it appears that there is a step at that transition. So I believe the bottom line is a continuous curve without a step...and I could be wrong.
(https://image.ibb.co/m4qBVz/Screenshot_2018_08_23_09_23_09.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
This image shows it even better!
(https://image.ibb.co/bKvs3K/Screenshot_2018_08_23_09_30_46.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.
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Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.
It appears to me that the curve where the rear TG finial lays is so slight as to be imperceptible. The curve of the lower buttstock picks up speed as it continues to the rear. At least in this case that's what I always thought. But , rifles from this area have quite a bit of variation, different makers used different techniques. I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong when speaking in generalities here. What Might be right for Kuntz might be wrong for Rupp etc.
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Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.
As best as I can tell they're all microscopically curved maybe 2 degrees or so. You put the curve in the lower portion of the stock and shape the flat, and later on you inlet the guard. Inlet the rear, give it a whack or two with the butt of the chisel to make sure it fits well and either screw it or pin it. It's the 'whack' that typically adds imho a degree or two of curve to really mate up with the very gradual flat curvature (which is typically less in that area than further on down).
Come to think of it there are a whole lot of various aspects of rifle building which involve a plain old good whack.
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Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.
As best as I can tell they're all microscopically curved maybe 2 degrees or so. You put the curve in the lower portion of the stock and shape the flat, and later on you inlet the guard. Inlet the rear, give it a whack or two with the butt of the chisel to make sure it fits well and either screw it or pin it. It's the 'whack' that typically adds imho a degree or two of curve to really mate up with the very gradual flat curvature (which is typically less in that area than further on down).
Come to think of it there are a whole lot of various aspects of rifle building which involve a plain old good whack.
Always been my experience as well, don't want anything getting sassy with you. ;)
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Fred; i received your drawing today, i appreciate it, will incorpate in my next build. boy this topic sure created a much of $#@*, all i wante d to do is copy your lines as close as possible, you made one honey of a rifle. i admit i'm no pro builder just trying to keep my mind busy doing what i like and try my hand at doing right. i hope i didn't start any trouble out there..............yip
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What complications? Everybody just contributes as best they know how?
By the way....to use the template tracing you need these drops....comb nose is 1-9/16" and the drop at heel is 3-1/4". These drops came off my present build.
I took some measurements off my present build and have them if anyone needs them in the future. .....Fred
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Thank you, Fred! The copy of your tracing (also) arrived in the mail today -- I'll have to apply your drop dimensions for the nose & heel to my copy and see how it compares with "Verner"
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
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I've just sent another tracing of my Shuler BC template to a fellow member and I think I overlooked one other request but don't know who it is. If I told someone I would send the tracing, please contact me. After 9 tracings sent, the one I overlooked is the last one.....Fred
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Taylor's right, no step. One continuous, very wide arc.
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Yip,
I think it would help your efforts if you would get the CD from the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. It's called "Lehigh Valley 1780 - 1820" and it's from the 2010 KRA President's display. It has twenty great Lehigh rifles on it with ten to fourteen high resolution shots of each rifle. It is only $20 plush S&H. Here is the link to our site. You can pay with credit card, Paypal or send us a check.
http://kentuckyriflefoundation.org/krf-store/
VP
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VP; i ordered the dvd tthis morning, thanks for the input hope to do a good job on this next build.
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VP; i ordered the dvd tthis morning, thanks for the input hope to do a good job on this next build.
That dvd is going to knock your socks off.
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i hope, thats why i wear boots!
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I made this interpretation of a Bucks County rifle mostly from the few pictures that are available. RCA, Kindigs book and a couple others. I scaled out the " unknown" gun in Shumways RCA, to the best of my abilities. I started with a blank Troy Sweeney gave me for some help. The wood had a few issues but I was determined to make it work.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hd9Dsp/IMG_0504.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bE5mCp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/myydQ9/IMG_0513.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgo1dU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gRRRCp/IMG_0518.jpg) (https://ibb.co/es7BdU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bQbnJU/IMG_0515.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cRKUXp)
I made all the furniture excepting the trigger guard. It is a Reeves Goring Schuler TG.
I made this 3 years ago and has seen some hunts and Rendesvous. Unlike most of the BC guns in the Books this one has a .54 rifled barrel.
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That's a really nice Bucks County LR....has all the features too. A couple of my early BC builds also had .54 swamped bbls {C weight from Rice} and if done right, can still be slim.
Used Goehring's # 47 TG which actually was a Verner and had to file the thumbnails fore and aft. Didn't know that he had a Shuler TG. Can't tell if the Pbox lid release rod is under the toeplate?
Nice job on the entry pipe....that can be a deterrent in making a BC LR because it can't be bought. Your sideplate is nicely done and resembles those of Verner.
The Bplate I mainly used came from Dru Hedgecock and is virtually the same as those used by Shuler....Dru is retired and can't find that particular Bplate at any other supplier.
The top BC shown below is my 3rd attempt of a BC LR and is a .54. The bottom pic has the Bplate that I used on most of the BC builds and resembles a Shuler BPlate.
Again ....thanks for posting a beautiful BC LR......Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/nnKSJU/Bucks_Co3_TOW_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nATMdU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mNkpXp/StarW1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eQ5pXp)
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Alacran,and Fred: beautiful rifles i hope to start soon as soon as Rice comes through,great looking rifles!!!!!!!!!!!
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Alacran,and Fred: beautiful rifles i hope to start soon as soon as Rice comes through,great looking rifles!!!!!!!!!!!
All those pics above should give you some great inspiration. They sure are great rifles.
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what is the basic caliber for a B/C? i ordered a 40 from RICE i hope this is gonna be right h/c
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what is the basic caliber for a B/C? i ordered a 40 from RICE i hope this is gonna be right h/c
I'd have to look in my Shumway RCA Volumes to find out for you..... ;)
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Mike looked it up in my RCA and Verner showing a 46 caliber, Shuler shows a 52, maybe i'll call Jason at Rice, Fred what do ya think?
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Eric....surely would appreciate any info on Weiker. Here's my e-mail address...
fklehto@charter.net Thanks.....Fred
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YIP....all of my later BCs have a Rice "B" weight swamped bbl that's 46" long and in .50 cal. .....Fred
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Thanks for the compliments Fred. I really like Bucks County rifles. I hope to make another one soon.
On this gun the patch box release protrudes through the toe plate. It also has a standing breech I copied from Verner's gun.
I pounded the BP out of a 1/4 inch piece of brass . Had to keep putting it back in the stove to keep it annealed. Next one I make I'll start with 1/8th inch brass.
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Yip thanks for the compliment.
I forgot to mention. Jason at Rice is making a BC profile barrel. I believe Jason told me that the .50 cal. comes in at 4 lbs. You should be able to make a fairly light gun with that. Was going to pick one up at Friendship, but I am really backed up with projects.
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Alacran and Fred; called Jason at Rice and changed my order to a "b" Bucks County profile 44" long round rifling, again 3 month turnaround. hope all goes right
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alacran and flehto,
TOW has a BC buttplate that is, I believe, is BP 22. Would that work for the buttplate like you, Fred, said you use to get from Dru Hedgcock. Or, alacran would that work for the one you made if out of 1/8 thick brass. I really like the graceful contour of that sweeping buttplate.
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elkhorne....have used TOW's BP-22 and it's shown in a previous post on p3 ...just scroll back until you come to the first pics of 2 buttstocks. It's the top pic and the bottom pic is the one from Hedgecock which I prefer and no longer can locate.
Actually the BPlate from Hedgecock req'd some work to duplicate the Bplate used by Shuler....The return was faceted as cast and had to be filed round and the thumbnail had to be filed in and 2 lines had to be cut in. The top pic is a Shuler original and the bottom pic is one of my builds. ....Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/c2L8vK/DSC_0263.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dwMsNz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cY7wFK/P1010010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ixBOvK)
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that's a great looking b/p.
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trying to locate a b/p for a B/C rifle, the only one i see is from TOTW but has facits and a squared off comb can this be filed to my liking? i like the one Fred has
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Spinner; tryed to locate his web could not hide him
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Hi....I've always used Reeves' # 47 TG which was actually a Verner style and had to have the thumbnails filed on and also the finial facets had to be changed , but could never see his BC Bplate because it was always "out of stock". The modified Verner TG { the one used w/ his "masterpiece" BC LR } is shown below.
Reeves' BC Bplate could possibly be available from his daughter who has continued the business. If it also is a Verner, it might also be the one from his "masterpiece" LR which looks a lot like a Lancaster Bplate. I don't know his daughter's tel, no. If she has the Shuler style TG and Bplate, these might be closer to what I used. ....Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/cUY9kK/P1010012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/imvdee)
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Dave Keck at Knob Mountain offered a bucks(Shuler I believe) bplate and trigger guard .
Bob
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I think I've found the Bplate that I formerly bought from Hedgecock....TOW #BP-K-3-B. TOW states that it's an early Bethlehem, but the dims and looks all match what I've been using on my BC builds. As I said...it requires eliminating the return facets and rounding them off and filing in a thumbnail. It's a quality sand casting and the cost is $17.99. The problem is that it's back ordered. Perhaps if enough builders ordered one or two, the foundry might produce a few.....Fred
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Dave Keck, supplies basically the same Shuler "thumbnail" butt plate and trigger guard as used by John Shuler while he worked in Bucks Co. His castings are very close to those that Reves Goehring used to supply. Dave's castings have little extra material to be removed and are easily cleaned up for usage. Verner did not use the thumbnail design on either of his signed works.. At one time Reaves had several Shuler butt plates including one w/ a rounded bottom that was used on a fowler... There are a number of near bench copies of Bucks Co. rifles on my web site. "Spinner" above supplied a lot of the research that went into these rifles. Ron
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Thanks for your important info on BC TGs and Bplates. How do I get to your website....and what is Dave Keck's website contact info.
Just looked at Knob Mountain and didn't find any BC components......Fred
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lucky RA please post web sites for these guys. i've been searching all morning with no help
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lucky RA please post web sites for these guys. i've been searching all morning with no help
http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/castings.html (http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/castings.html)
scroll down about half way.
Contact info is at the bottom of the home page:
http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/index.html (http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/index.html)
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Dave Keck Knob Mountain Muzzleloading page two of castings has the bucks castings
Bob
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Fred, the easiest way to Lucky RA's website is to just click on the earth icon on the left side of his post, that will take you straight to his website.
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Thanks to all for the info on Bucks County TGs and Bplates at Knob Mountain. Ron....thanks for sharing the info on the BC castings at Knob Mountain and your LRs shown on your website are just beautiful as well as educational. .....Fred
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THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!
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I noticed that the Shuler Bplate on the Knob Mountain website is only 4-1/2" high. Would this be for a small bore LR that Shuler built? The BC Bplate I use is 5-1/8" high and have used it for both "B" and "C" weight swamped bbls and it suited both.
The Shuler BC TG at Knob Mountain is a dandy and I wish I had known about it sooner. ...although the modified #47 BC TG from Fred Miller was quite suitable.
Anyways....I'm glad that some BC items are available.....Fred
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Fred; T.O.T.W page 262 has a butt plate, A Verner style b/p, looks to be long enough
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I take it that the Verner has a corner in lieu of a radius at the heel? ....Fred
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thanks Fred; guess i'll keep look'n
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For comparison to the measurements above, an attributed George Weiker rifle, original flint, original length barrel at 45 1/2" long and 47 cal smoothbore. The breech is 1.070". The waist of the swamp is 8" back from the muzzle and measures .755". And at the muzzle is .810".
The butt plate is 4 3/8" top to bottom.
John
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thanks gents; these are measurements i'll write down, i'll have to think about that butt plate. this subject is great input keep up the response. ......yip
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I was at the Jefferson Co Arms and Artifact show today, and one of the KRA former presidents showed a number of us a recently acquired unsigned Bucks Co. gun. The gun was an absolute beauty with all the bells and whistles. The gun is untouched. It could well be the work of John Shuler. I checked the butt plate length and it was a smidge under 4-1/2" so that stacks up well with the 4-3/8 length reported above. As Spinner related the Rice Shuler barrel is on the heavy side. I used one at the request of the client, but would stick to a B weight 50, unless something other was requested. The commercial patchboxs are much too large and must be cut down. Additionally the originals had much smaller diameter barrels in the hinge than the commercial boxes...just some things to consider. Ron
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thanks lucky: the information here by some are great, lets keep this up
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This pertains to those whom I've sent a tracing of my Shuler template. Seeing suitable BC TGs and Bplates aren't available from most sources, I would buy the Shuler parts from Knob Mountain if the build is from a blank. I should have used these TGs and Bplates but when I started building BC LRs in 1978 not much was available.
The Shuler template tracing underline contour should be altered to accommodate the less high Knob Mountain Bplate starting somewhere at the rear finial of the Knob Mountain TG. You'll have to see what contour blends in the best. The top contour stays the same and the bbl used has a 1" breech which fits in well.
If'n it was me, the first thing I would do is buy the Shuler castings from Knob Mountain....it's really the easy way to make a correct BC Shuler LR.
Thanks to Eric , John and Ron for the accurate info they supplied for building historically correct BC LRs......Fred
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well Fred i'll be buying one of em and try my hand,but the way things is going looks like November when i get started, till then just keep studing and listening to you guys." lets go bucks" (its a Pittsburgh thing)..........yip
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planning on my nose cap, were they two piece or one piece?
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I think Spinner should answer that. I've got pics of open ended Mcaps but I don't use them...my Mcaps are oval and close ended. The top pic is of an original and is open ended. The bottom pic is off one of mine.....don't know if this type was used....Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/f7zKaK/DSC_0256.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZbbNz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mnGzaK/BC_46_2_Muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/meY1pe)
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Fred; i hope Spinner replies, i got the dvd by KRA and does'nt show any fore stocks, i've been searching the web with no help. are they oval all the way to the end or is this something not to worry about?
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Great summary of a very distinctive and beautiful style
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Spinner; thanks for your reply i'll take all as gospel, i appreciate it, thanks
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Thanks Eric. The entry pipe w/ its long finial is sometimes a deterrent in building a BC LR. Below are some pics of how I make them.
Inletting is fairly difficult .....but if you spread the "wings" open and when the "top" of the pipe is to depth, then little by little the "wings" or sides of the pipe are pushed in and inletted until the sides are to depth. I use one pin through the pipe lug and a very small screw for each "wing". This allows the pipe to be removed.
A drill, the same dia as the OD of the pipe is clamped in the form block and the end of the finial is peened and formed to match the pipe. A few anneals are req'd to prevent cracking. The finial and pipe are then hi temp silver soldered together. A snuggly fitting drill is inserted into the pipe bbl and acts as a heat sink while silver soldering the 2 pieces together.
The form will also make a one piece BC entry pipe and after the pipe portion is formed and the lugs are silver soldered together, is clamped in the hole and the "forend" form block is used. A steel punch w/ a radiused tip is used to peen the transition radius and then the rest of the finial is filed to suit . Needless to say, the brass has to be periodically annealed to prevent cracking. I think the 2 piece is easier to make.
When closing the lugs of the pipe , I use hi temp silver solder and lay a 1/16 dia length of silver solder in the radiused groove of the lugs in the ID ....the silver solder fills in the groove and enables a much shorter length of finished lug as shown.
This BC entry pipe no doubt can be made w/ a steel mandrel, but the form blocks shown have done quite a few BC entry pipes. How others do it would be interesting.....Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/hrUKAK/P1010009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fKumqK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hcuKAK/P1010011.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bDqsVK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gcUVHz/P1010014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jigcxz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mfyeAK/P1010015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nCYCVK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nfDPcz/P1010005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ja2Hxz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iDfgPe/P1010003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/btro4e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kdKaje/P1010002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cvMo4e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n0PuSz/BC46_2_Entry_Side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ghKiLK)
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trying to experiment on the entry pipe, i'll try to post pic of the one i'm trying and hope you will agree its worth a shot
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Hi Eric....I don't think you did it the "hard way"...whatever works is the way to go. Your BC entry pipes are beautiful. I don't think that despite the interest shown here asre BC LRs, this style will be a popular build because of the entry pipe.
The other day I was thinking of how my BC LRs would have been more correct if sources such as you were known to me and BC TGs and Bplates were available such as the ones from Knob Mountain.
I used the TG from Goehring but there was a lot of confusion dealing w/ him because he didn't have a catalog. I bought the Verner TG from him and spent a few hrs changing it to a Shuler and used a bplate from Hedgecock that was advertised as "Bucks County" but was too long.
Although my BC LRs sold well and do look like BC LRS, there's a nagging barb in my head that things could have been better if I hadn't started to build BCs so early when info was scarce and true BC components were even scarcer. I was a decent builder but a lousy researcher.
But that's retrogressing and seeing I'm barely getting the latest and last BC done, I don't have any regrets it's been an interesting "ride". .....Fred
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Eric....thanks for the kind words. For some of the new BC builders, doing as you did w/ buying an enrtry pipe and then making the finial might be a good start for them. Yours looks quite good.
I found by making the BC entry pipe from 2 pieces was a lot easier than one piece. So your idea of 2 pcs took hold.....
In the post w/ 2 pics , did the 2 form blocks actually form the pipe? Didn't think that wooden form bloclks would endure the strain ....a lot of detail to sharpen up. .....Fred
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Hi Eric.....Used the finial of the Pbox you previously posted, but used a silver inlay in lieu of the round projection. Some say the inlay should have been brass and I might agree w/ that...or just use the round projection. This is the only side opening Pbox I made that has a surround.
You surely do have a wealth of info on BC LRs and their makers. ....and it's much appreciated......Fred
(https://preview.ibb.co/n5riNz/Bucks46_PB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRGuUe)
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Fred; that p/b is a beau, nice work,your right Spinner is a wealth of info!!!!
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I have really been enjoying the repartee between Fred, Spinner and Erick re BC guns. The only one I've built was half assedly planned, but turned out ok. All this BC talk has inspired me to make another one. I will be talking to Jason at Rice about his Schuler profile barrel. Fred the patch box you just posted is very elegant. I have plenty of fine Indiana curl that has cured enough for me to use. I don't trust any wood that hasn't been in AZ for at least 3 years. When I finished my first, I thought the first thing I do before I build another, is make the entry pipe. After that all will be easy. Flehto I will copy your tooling for it. Looks way more efficient than how I did It.
It will keep my mind tuned to the project while I acquire parts.
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Fred, you are doing great work! I've been "lurking" on this thread, and have gotten a ton of good Bucks County info from you all! Spinner was nice enough to send me that PB drawing also.
I kinda like the silver finial on the PB - looks nice! Was it sterling, or pure silver? I like both, but the silver tends to be easier for me to work than the sterling.
Building a Rupp rifle right now, and tried to anneal one of my old English coins - over-heated a bit, and got some nifty burn marks in my floor! I do have an annealing block to heat stuff on, and do not know why I didn't use it!
Thanks for all the info, guys - it is appreciated!
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Can't recall as to what kind of silver it was...just ordered a sheet of .062 thick silver which might be overly thick and the main use for the silver is the cheek star which requires some filing to make it flush......Fred
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Hello Folks!
I've been quietly taking in all the BC knowledge that has been coming out of this thread (and comparing it with my Verner/BC pre-carve...) -- Over the weekend, I got a chance to do a tracing of my Varner pre-carved stock (using a 3" machinist square and a drafting pencil - after I "plotted" points around the stock, I came back and faired the lines with a set of ships curves I still have...) Comparing my tracing with Fred's BC stock tracing, the lower line of the buttstock is a pretty good match while the comb on Verner is a straight line (without the 1/8"+ "rocker" of the BC comb) -- The drop on both tracings is comparable, especially after taking in account for LOP...
Thank you, Eric, for the PB drawing -- I just saved it to my BC folder & printed it "actual" size -- it came out full size (like it was supposed to!... ;-)
The folks at Knob Mountain may be wondering about all the sudden interest in BC TG & Bplates! ;-)
Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS
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So, Spinner, is your moniker related to the propeller design on many Bucks County patchboxes, or is that coincidence?
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Welcome Prairie D.
Fairing, plotting points. rocker, ships curves, , haven't heard those words in a long time. I Used to be a plug builder.
If you are planning to take the long rifle building road, remember "A fair line supersedes any given measurement".
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Fred; or anyone willing to answer this question. is it possible and logical to make a b/p with the thumbnail and gentel curves? just kicking this around and doing this with 1/4" brass, if this sounds stupid ? can't find one!
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Welcome Prairie D.
Fairing, plotting points. rocker, ships curves, haven't heard those words in a long time. I Used to be a plug builder.
If you are planning to take the long rifle building road, remember "A fair line supersedes any given measurement".
What can I say, I'm a child from the last century... ;-)
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Yip
The only reason I made mine out of 1/4 inch brass, is that I was given a 7foot x1.25x.25 brass bar. I pretty much had to beat it to .125 before I started shaping it. I had looked at the catalogues and all the websites and didn't find what I wanted. It was winter time so I would just kept putting it back in the stove to keep it annealed. I didn't want to drive into town to buy a piece of brass . A piece of .125 x 2x 12 should be long enough.
Draw what you want the profile to look like. Trace it on a piece of hardwood. Cut it out. Make it long enough to hold it in a strong vice. Work the profile first. Leave the comb long. When you get the profile right, use a ballpeen to beat the inside of the plate concave. If you have a small anvil of some sort beat the inside from the center out. Best to go perpendicular to the BP. Did I mention Anneal, anneal anneal!!! Best to start the concave process at the heel.
You can keep going back to the hardwood pattern and keep it aligned.
Wish I had taken photos.
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alacran; i think i'll give it a try, TOTW has a piece of brass 1/4"x4x 8" (experimental) i hope this will do. like you said i got all winter to give it a whirl. i think all i need is a profile of the b/p, something to do while waiting
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Yip.
I made you a pattern of my BP. I detailed the widths at one inch increments. Send me a pm with a mailing address and it will be on its way.
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Making a BC Bplate out of some thickness of brass plate is a worthwhile endeavor but to arrive at a BC contour needs a "model" that's acceptable. Having never hammered a Bplate from sheet brass, I imagine multiple anneals are req'd. I think that's why the original makers preferred cast Bplates....which manes sense and is my opinion.
If'n I were to start another BC LR at this time, the plethora of info from the likes of Eric, John and Ron would make it a lot easier to produce a Shuler BC LR that was "Shuler". Using the TG and Bplate from Knob Mountain would determine the template for sawing out the blank and the numerous photos of original BC LRs would achieve the "flavor' of a BC LR. .....w/ me it would be a Shuler.
Presently I'm not capable of starting a BC LR build, but can only imagine how authentic it would be w/ all the info and HC parts now available.....Fred
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thanks Fred; i've got a while to wait so i guess i'll take your advise and go to Knob Mountain when the time arrives
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seems that with time on my hands i decided to make a few parts for the B/C, i made an entry thimble and upper thimbles, and a few inlays.that entry thimble was a real booger but i think i did it, i'll try to photo these and post them as soon as i figure out how to do it. i hope i can start soon on the rifle, getting antsy.
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Spinner; the open nose cap, does the sides end at the barrel or is it folded around and under the the barrel?
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(https://preview.ibb.co/jSvsFU/DSC_0256.jpg) (https://ibb.co/csf3N9)
One rivet in each side.....Spinner {Eric} might have some better info on riveting.....Fred
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thanks Fred i've been asking you a lot of questions lately, sorry, glad you replied.
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Alacran; got your template the other day, i'm gotta give it a try, wish me luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Remember to anneal specially the hard bend of the heel. It will work harden quickly. Good Luck!
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Spinner or Fletho; is there a book on the Bucks County rifle, need measurements on forearm and front end of rifle, trying to be on the right track as close as possible.