AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: Mark Elliott on September 01, 2018, 02:14:46 AM
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This is a horn that I just finished for an Model 1812 Rifleman's pouch. It is not exactly historically correct. It should have a brass tip with a ring attachment, and the filler plug should be tuned down to take a strap. At least that is what a pair of Allegheny Arsenal horns I saw looked like. However, that is not what the customer wanted. I still think it turned out pretty well if you are not really picky about the historical details.
(https://preview.ibb.co/m38dee/Horn23_ALR_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gY4vQK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cno0sz/Horn23_ALR_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gm0rze)
(https://preview.ibb.co/g3yN5K/Horn23_ALR_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDMaQK)
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Man that is a Good looking horn, HC or not. Great finish, is that AF?
Tim
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I like it ;D
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That shines. 8)
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Mark,
Do you have the photos of the original horns or are they in a book? I am interested in what they looked like. Your horn looks very plausible.
David
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Yes Tim, that is AF. That is what I use most of the time. It takes at least four applications to get a good result.
David, I will have to rework the photos for this format, but I will put them up sometime today.
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Super nice horn, Mark! Is that an applied/screw tip?
Greg
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Beautiful horn,..nice color.
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The horn has a plain screw tip.
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Here are some of the photos I have of an original horn that was identified to me as from the Allegheny Arsenal.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c6pnQK/riflemanhornalr_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kpmZ5K)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gKuyXz/riflemanhornalr_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fu1Oze)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fLFSQK/riflemanhornalr_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/efxwKe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iBnwKe/riflemanhornalr_4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kVfGKe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hY33ze/riflemanhornalr_5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gk1Z5K)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dw3gkK/riflemanhornalr_6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kWHVee)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cJEAee/riflemanhornalr_7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iabdXz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/b2rqee/riflemanhornalr_8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iUOgkK)
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Very nice horn you made. So, on the original horn, it must have hung tip down when worn? Bad news if your spring breaks during the march.
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Mark,
That's a very nice horn you made and an interesting original. Thanks for posting them.
The location of the ring on the original is puzzling to me. Assuming that's where the strap attaches, I would have expected the ring to be 180 degrees from where it is. But obviously it worked for the owner.
-Ron
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I was shown two nearly identical original horns, so the one shown was not a one off. It was the pattern that was ordered and issued to riflemen. Apparently, the Army wanted the horn to hang pointing down.
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Mark
where you able to measure the horn for length and maybe diameter? i would like to duplicate the horn and pouch set. curious if the horn is small in size like the rifleman's pouch/bag. the position of the ring holds the horn close to the body?
kw
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I did not take measurements, but I purchased a couple of horns to reproduce it the same day I examined it. The approximate measurements are about 2 3/4" diameter at the base and about 13-14" around the outside curve from the end of the filler plug to the tip. The horn I made is a little bigger and longer than that at about 2 7/8" at the base and about 17" from the tip of the filler plug to the tip of the stopper. Of course, I used a different kind of tip that is much longer.
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I wouldn't think the horn was intended to hang tip down. With the strap attached to the finial it would move/slip. It looks like it was set up to hang with the tip pointed in towards the body. Just my 2CW.
TOTW used to carry a tip that a ring could be attached to with some work, unfortunately they have been out of stock for sometime. I don't think it would take much to make one up but the cast spout would be neat.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/81/3/SPOUT-KIT-B
Tim
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Mark, I wouldn't be too concerned about it being "historically correct" when a horn is that fine looking. I love the subtle but rich finishes, and the turning of the base plug. That is a beauty.
Regarding that original horn, who knows, maybe it was meant to be hung tip down. It has that brass valve, so perhaps the maker trusted that.
Jim Webb (who owned 200 original bags) noted that many bags had very short horn hanger straps. The horn was simply inverted 180 degrees to pour powder. No need to tip the whole horn up, you just flip it over. That is why the straps can be short. All of this came to mind when I saw the ring hanging the old horn tip down. One thing is for sure, if it is hanging tip-down, and you operate the valve, you get powder with no other movement.
Just my 2 cents worth, and I am no expert. Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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The two horns examined by Mark where my horns. The larger is 13 1/2” around the outside curve and 2 5/8” diameter. The smaller horn is 11” and 2 35”. I have seen several of these and all have rings placed the snake. I do know of one with original strap. When you see how it hangs with the strap you see it curves into body, not upside down
(https://preview.ibb.co/i3vu9e/0_F9_BA0_D8_8_C96_4_FE5_86_D8_92_ACFBD972_C7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jL4XvK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cB8QFK/8_F15390_B_FB4_E_47_BE_B7_D1_939700_C8503_A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cZHKaK)
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there is a typographical error, it should say the rings were placed in same place, sorry for my typing.
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Thanks for the additional Pix Jim. Are the tips made up from sheet or are they cast?
Thanks, Tim
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With the presented reference material, I am all amped up to recreate one. Too bad the brass casting set at TOW is out of stock, the parts would be a grate start. I have never tried to thread wood, would a normal metal die and tap work or are they different so as to get non fuzzy or torn threads?
best kw
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It is made with sheet brass Jim
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If you click on the link to TOTW I posted above you will see an example of a horn done using the valve, FWIW it is listed as a copy of a U.S. Arsenal horn, in The Powder Flask Book by Ray Riling.
What the heck, here it is again:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/81/3/SPOUT-KIT-B
Tim C.
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If you click on the link to TOTW I posted above you will see an example of a horn done using the valve, FWIW it is listed as a copy of a U.S. Arsenal horn, in The Powder Flask Book by Ray Riling.
What the heck, here it is again:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/81/3/SPOUT-KIT-B
Tim C.
I was referred to Mike Lea as a source for these tips. Unfortunately, My only contact for him was on FB and I did not hear back from him until I was almost done with this horn. He said that he had one kit that had not been assembled and was planning to make more. The price given was $78. His phone number is 614 291-4757.
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All the ref. material I have seen on the M1803 pouch seems to show the horn straps to be set up for a flask attachment. How would the base filler plug be attached to the sling? Trying to figure out the connection here. There is an original pouch/flask set on Ebay right now for big money.
kw
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The original horn with strap that I have seen was in about mint condition. It came out of an old collection and originally obtained from Bannermans. The horn and strap were not attached to pouch. The strap was flat around the extended plug, it was sewen in place. I am not sure I explained this very well
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Mark can you post a picture of your pouch or the original that is correct for the separate horn sling? From what I am gathering the pouches most referenced have the integral "powder device strap" apparently for the later peace flask. If there was an early pouch design for the M1803 rifle using a separate horn strap, I would really like to see it.
thanks kw
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Unfortunately, I don't have the Rifleman's pouch or photos of it. My client is making the pouch. I was told to allow for straps that are 3/4".
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FWIW:
https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/rare-military-powder-horn-3266641
Tim
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The horn ref. pictures presented are awesome. Should really help anyone re-creating one. Now what begs to be asked.....where is a picture of the correct bag/pouch for the m1803 m1814/17 etc? Does an original exist in some museum? Wonder if Harpers Ferry or Allegheny arsenal made them?
kw
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Another FWIW. Searching auction sites may turn up something. This is the Third or Fourth that I have seen that has belt loops on the back. I realize these are not the right date but may give some idea of what was used by the military.
Tim
https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/early-nineteenth-century-cartridge-box-22836
A second:
https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/early-american-cartridge-box-3266630
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With the presented reference material, I am all amped up to recreate one. Too bad the brass casting set at TOW is out of stock, the parts would be a grate start. I have never tried to thread wood, would a normal metal die and tap work or are they different so as to get non fuzzy or torn threads?
best kw
There are taps and dies made for wood that will do a much better job then trying to use those for metal. Woodcraft, Amazon and others should carry them. Much larger dies with the cutting edge mounted in a wooden holder.
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T. Crosby
The pouches on Cowans have drilled blocks, indicative of paper cartridges for muskets. I don't know how well a pre patched ball works wrapped in paper, I guess its doable though. Perhaps the cloth patch was gathered up and tied off on ball top?
best kw
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T. Crosby
The pouches on Cowans have drilled blocks, indicative of paper cartridges for muskets. I don't know how well a pre patched ball works wrapped in paper, I guess its doable though. Perhaps the cloth patch was gathered up and tied off on ball top?
best kw
A patch was not used with the paper loads used with military muskets. Paper cartridge torn, powder poured down barrel, paper on top then ball or no paper. My thoughts were; if the ball came with a premeasured load wrapped in paper what is a horn needed for, priming or would a bit of the main charge be saved to prime OR did they self prime?
Then again were are talking the model 1803-19, .54cal and it was rifled with a patch box to carry precut patches. So wooden blocks would not be needed. I wonder what WAS in the bag/box. Balls/screw/wiper/tow/flints/pick/flint tool?????
Should probably started a separate thread on this but we've come this far.
Tim
From:
Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States by Friedrich Wilhelm von
Steuben
VI. Handle- Cartridge! One motion.
Bring your right hand short round to your pouch, flapping it hard, seize the cartridge, and bring it with a quick motion to your mouth, bite the top off down to the powder, covering it instantly with your thumb, and bring the hand as low as the chin, with the elbow down.
VII. Prime! One motion.
Shake the powder into the pan, and covering the cartridge again, place the three last fingers behind the hammer, with the elbow up.
VIII. Shut- Pan! Two motions
1st. Shut your pan briskly, bringing down the elbow to the butt of the firelock, holding the cartridge fast in your hand.
2d. Turn the piece nimbly round before you to the loading position, with the lock to the front, and the muzzle at the height of the chin, bringing the right hand up under the muzzle; both feet being kept fast in this motion.
IX. Charge with Cartridge! Two motions.
1st. Turn up your hand and put the cartridge into the muzzle, shaking the powder into the barrel.
2d. Turning the stock a little towards you, place your right hand closed, with a quick and strong motion, upon the butt of the rammer, the thumb upwards, and the elbow down.
X. Draw- Rammer! Two motions.
1st. Draw your rammer with a quick motion half-out, seizing it instantly at the muzzle back-handed.
2d. Draw it quite out, turn it, and enter it into the muzzle.
XI. Ram down- Cartridge! One motion
Ram the cartridge well down the barrel, and instantly recovering and seizing the rammer back-handed by the middle, draw it quite out, turn it, and enter it as far as the lower pipe, placing at the same time the edge of the hand on the butt-end of the rammer, with the fingers extended
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Powder horn is powder source for making more paper cartridges.
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Powder horn is powder source for making more paper cartridges.
Did they make their own paper cartridges? I know in the CW they were issued Sixty at a time.
Tim