AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Pukka Bundook on September 01, 2018, 06:09:03 PM
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Gents,
Apologies this isn't a Longrifle, but in my snapping matchlock thread, I was pondering finishing the barrel as per the original;
What do you chaps think?
Here is a photo of the original, and mine in the "Bit Different" thread remains plain, (just about)
Any ideas?
On the original (C 1525) it is obvious the maker had the guts to attack the barrel without first marking out the pattern, as it is all over!
Would mine look better done like this or left as it is?
(https://preview.ibb.co/nn8z4e/1_75s_a232177_a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9MK4e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c6jiVK/1_75s_a232177_b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b401Hz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/m0vAcz/1_75s_a232177_d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hPsCqK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j3fRHz/DSCN2068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eeb0cz)
I value your input, and apologise again for not quite the right sort of gun for here!
R.
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Go for it!
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I'm a conservative. I think the plain Jane look is best.
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I'm with Rich, go for it. I think it looks unique.
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Go for it!
Ditto!
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Oh I'd go for it, just like the original builder. Make it too perfect and it's not gonna look right. I think the original is awesome and if you emulate what they did you can only make an even better piece.
Greg
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Thanks to all for your thoughts on this.
It might have been an academic question, as after all, was I making a sort of copy of this gun or not?.....and if so, why stop half way.
Still, that crazy old pattern is still kind of wild, even after nearly 500 years! LOL!
Thinking on it though, flamboyance was the object in that age. Think of the Landknechts outfits, nothing quiet or subdued about them.
Robert,
Yes, the Original Is unique. I know of none just like it.
Greg,
"Make it too perfect and it's not gonna look right"..
You hit the nail on the head there , my friend.
There is nothing precise about the original, so getting the protractor out is the best way to screw up!
"Pick up a big 3-cornered file and have at 'er" seems about right.
I will keep you gents posted when I have time to attack it.
PS, picked up some fine Heavier wall tube to make a couple more. Not exactly the same but similar time -frame.
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Hi Richard,
I like rustic and primitive but I don't like crude. Your gun is probably more precisely and better made than the original so IMO filing the design on as crudely as the original actually won't look right. The design makes me think of the trim and hems of Roman or perhaps even Greek garments. If I were doing it, I would mark out reference points by eye (which will add a level of primitive uneveness automatically) for the ends of the outer lines and then file them in carefully. Then I would completely free wheel the inner lines. I would file carefully, trying to make as perfect a design as I could. Then I would look at the result from the standpoint of the whole gun and if I thought the lines needed some "cruding" up, I would file line over runs and vary the depth. I really like the fluting lines on the muzzle.
dave
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The pattern has a rather tribal appearance are there any stories about the provenance of the original matchlock?
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Pukka, it IS a side lock. Just not very long.....
And yes, start filing!
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Goo,
Yes, very good provenance of this arm, from northern Italy.
See link;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7542&highlight=Matchlock
I think If I remember right, that Michael was only the second or third owner in those near 500 years. :-)
Smart Dog Dave,
Thanks for your always valued thoughts on this.
Actually I was thinking along these lines myself, of marking it out roughly with a sharpie, as there is potential for a real wreck by picking up the file first!
Now I wish you hadn't mentioned the fluting at the muzzle!
Yes, if done it will look better, but getting it done has me struggling a bit!
Homer Simpson comes to mind,................"This look shard, but I bet it isn't!" LOL.
Oh I bet it Is hard, but not hard like wrap-around checkering. :-)
Any advise on fluting Dave?
Close -ups show scratch-marks, so maybe just filed in, but by the 1540's they seem to have devised (possibly) shapers. How a shaper /scraper would work on tapered flutes I know not!
Yes, it must be done. I say this now with resignation,..like looking at a desert that has to be crossed on foot! :-)
Craig, Yep! LOL!
Actually, 2 of these barrels would be Longer than most Longrifles. :-)
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Richard,
As this is so close to a true bench copy...a fluted muzzle would be perfect!
Bruce
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Love the original, Go For It!! 8)
Gus
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I am totally entranced by the history that Michael gave us, so long ago! The art work about the battle of Pavia made me wish I remembered more of my Italian!
Would love to go to Venice and other places to see these magnificent old weapons in person, to study how they were made and used.
Thank all of you for the wonderful things that you are showing in this thread.
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GO FOR IT ... I'd be disappointed if you didn't, not that that means anything to you, ha!
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Thanks all for your thoughts,
I will go for it. :-)
Flintsmoothie,
I know you well enough to care what you think. :-)
Craig,
Michael lived in Bavaria, and his collection was mainly arms of that area, Nuremburg in many cases, and these too are entrancing!
If you wish to PM me, I can give you links to many of his threads, but you could also do a search on the forum linked if you prefer.
I must say though, I am Very Happy you enjoyed the link above!
Fluting has me pondering the procedure, but once we have decided to do it, do it we will! (somehow)
Thanks to all!
R.
Just had a thought;
Yep, it hurt!
Would some of you chaps like me to place some links to Michaels interesting threads in the "Over the back fence" forum?
Be happy to do that and it wouldn't clutter up the Longrifle forums.
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Thanks, Richard. I went through the items that you posted the link to, which made me wish for more.
Yep, noted that he was from Bavaria, but some of the pictures he inserted were from a museum in Venice, and couldn't help but try to translate from the Italian.
More links, in OTBF, would be great.
Thanks!
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Just an update chaps;
Well, I went and did the zig-zag pattern................and I Like it!
I wasn't sure before I got cracking, but now it's done I do like how it looks.
One thing I like, is how the light shows up the pattern in one direction only, and when reversed shows it in the other direction. It seems alive somehow. :-)
(Like looking at pheasant feathers, how they change with the light)
Have started on the fluting at the muzzle. Therapy is required now.
(I Once did wrap -around all sides checkering.....and about needed a padded cell afterwards!)
When I get these flutes all cut, someone will show up and tell me how I Should have done it I may have to be restrained at that point. :-)
I'm still working on it, cutting them with a big primitive graver, (made from a 3 sided file,) and a hammer two sizes up from my normal graving hammer.
Hard to see how original flutes look, other than they Are flutes.
Pics will be forthcoming. Tiny and out of focus if I don't like it! :-)
Next dilemma;
In the white, browned, blued or aged and browned?
Bit bright for hunting, in the white methinks.... But like the light effect. Trial and error I suppose!
R.
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This is a very interesting project Richard. It pleases me to see your motivation, knowing the toll it may take on your spirit. But in the end, I believe you will find it fulfilling and worth the angst. I know you have the talent. It's refreshing to see someone step out on the limb, not knowing the drop.
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Taylor,
Thank you for your reply.
to quote you; " It is refreshing to see someone step out on a limb, not knowing the drop".
I had to smile, as it reminds me of a program I was told of, called "The Science of Stupid" or some such,...where folks saw off branches the ladder's leaning on and such!
Yes, to me going where I have not gone before is what gives satisfaction...and sometimes angst as you say!
I got the flutes cut. They are round bottomed, and I know some were cut to a "V". round or Vee is the same work I think, but I like it like this. I can always Vee them later if I think best.
Next is browning. I know I like it shiny bright, but this won't do. Will take some photos though ASAP, then ( I think) brown it middling and rub it back to highlight. I really don't want to lose how the flutes and zig-zag reflect light, but we shall see !
When I get it done, And if I do more, (Have a few in my head) this one will likely become the "When I didn't know what I was doing " example!
I can figure other ways of fluting by hand, and want to try them out.
All the best,
Richard.
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Richard, What Taylor said!
I think browning IS the way to go! Doubt that many firearms were blued back when that original was made.
But - fer crying out loud! Show us the ruddy thing aready!
Some time I have got to visit your workshop. Probably kitted out like Merlin's cave! Maybe I need to renew my passport - think it expires at the end of the year. But, not going to stop by if it's all covered in snow, so maybe in the Spring? Yeah, think youse guys have about 2 weeks of spring, with perhaps a snowfall or two.
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Craig old chap, It takes me time to take pictures, then time to put them on the computer, then time to put them here. I am stone age and not up to speed! LOL!
Weather is like a lady (fantastic writer! ) Elinore Pruitt Stewart said, "We have three seasons here" Winter, July and August". That was SW Wyoming, but it's the same here!
You have seen the wee gun already I believe, in the other thread, and only the barrel finishing is different.
My workshop is best defined as not tidy. Tidiness is the mark of a sick mind, Mine is healthy so Un -tidy. :-)
I think it Would be very nice to meet you, but the workshop and all that would likely be a disappointment. It is a rats nest of tools and all the bits of wood that We hacked off to find the stock shapes within, .. and all the iron that was filed off to find the barrel shapes within. If something falls to the floor, it is as well to make another.
Merlin's cave;
Lets see, It Does have a sword or two of the type Before Merlin, a shield as well, plus a helmet yet to finish. Unfinish'd and unstarted stuff of all ages, a weasel skin, (does that count?) Leather, Ancient barrels and bits, and a pot bellied stove. ...yes, and serpentine Lots of serpentine! (and mousetraps)
Snow gone now, but more forecast all harvest yet to do.
Best wishes,
Meself.
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Did get a really good chuckle - thank you!
I believe it would take a miracle for me to take a trip like that, and return alive. But yeah, love to see lots of serpentine, shields, and swords, with the occasional rifle here and there.
And I must have a VERY healthy mind!
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Craig,
Here are the photos up to browning;
(https://preview.ibb.co/mWXWPz/DSCN2745.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gjKBPz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fh35jz/DSCN2752.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gFed4z)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cLhsWe/DSCN2753.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mSXFjz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ktZsxK/DSCN2754.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cfjEBe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/g2T7We/DSCN2757.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mfFnWe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fKQFHK/DSCN2758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i1SUcK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/emD7We/DSCN2759.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j3abPz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/coTKcK/DSCN2761.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ny2O4z)
As you can see the chevron or zig-zag pattern isn't precise. I found it very easy to do that way!
Muzzle flutes took longer, but have ideas I'd like totry when making other barrels.
Any thoughts?...should I file 'em all off again? LOL!
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I like it, those flutes on the muzzle is the coolest thing I have seen in a while.
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Pretty cool! I wonder if the original wasn't more functional than we might think, like an early implementation of the serrated rib, to break up glare?
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Richard, there on the left side, 3 grooves down from the top, then halfway back from the muzzle - is that a rough spot I see?
Just kidding you! That is a fantastic job, and I can see what you were saying about the "chevrons" catching and reflecting the light. And the forward part, just love those details running half the length of the barrel.
So how long did that take you, and how many files were worn down in the process? I doubt that I could do anything like that, takes too much patience!
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I'm not a proponent of aging longrifles, but that said, I think that a lightly applied patina of this would look good and certainly make the chevrons and flutes on the barrel stand out.
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Richard, Very neat! I think that was the icing on the cake. Sets it off well! Good Job!! Nate
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Hi Richard,
That is fabulous and just the right balance between primitive and refined. An aged barrel patina would look great, better than a solid brown. A browning rubbed back to create an uneven patina would work I think.
dave
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Very cool!
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I'd like to see the concave flutes in the muzzle, but I applaud what you have accomplished so far.
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Late to the party Richard, but I think the arquebus is 10x better with the zigzag added. Looks fantastic! The more I get into aging I find it hard not to age something. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum so you can spend a weekend and read all the comments, or just do what you desire. If the metal is aged though, you have to age the stock. Just won't look right if you dont.
Greg
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Thanks chaps, seems you like it. :)
BGF,
I don't think with a tube sight that barrel glare would be a problem, but who knows what went through their minds 500 years ago.
I think it was mainly decoration though. Everything was short and squat at that time, ...candle sticks, chimneypots and all else between. They usually had a similar decoration as well, 3 sections all a bit different for instance.
Nate, Dave, Pleased you think it adds, rather than subtracts! Sigh of relief that you think it came out OK. (Yes, I was a bit bothered LOL!)
Taylor,
Not quite sure if you mean you would like to see a photo of the flutes, or was it that you think they are Vee'd and should be concave? They are concave, but file -work at muzzle maybe hides that a bit.
Now Greg, You are Supposed to be studying arquebuses ! :-)
Yes, aging;
There can be all sorts of bare-knuckle fights over that!
I've browned it a bit, and rubbed it back to highlight parts. The stock will get "aged" as I lug it around, as I want to hunt with it a bit. (It already slid out the truck door onto the ground once!)
I have done the Woodbury ageing thing, and like it, but this one I thought should look like it had been carried, but not left on the midden for a few years.
Will take photos ASAP of the final bit.
Thanks again for the positive replies!
R.
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very nice!
fleeener
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Photos after browning a bit and rubbing back. Not Good photos, but all I have;
(https://preview.ibb.co/eLvuMp/DSCN2765_Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mPJs7U)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bX1txU/DSCN2773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hoNNrp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nr92rp/DSCN2770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBqWj9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gR0E49/DSCN2772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fmhixU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c7yZ49/DSCN2774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZVQBp)
Have to finish the serpent I see.
I think I like it better chevroned and fluted, somewhat like the original.
In memory of a good friend and teacher, Michael Tromner.
Now I hope to shoot the smoothbore postal shoot with it! If it stops snowing here !!!
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Simply Awesome!
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Looks great, Richard. Quite a project there. Thanks for sharing.
Bob
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Richard,
Absolutely Wonderful! Leaving it bright is probably best...wouldn't you think?
Bruce
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Richard - Totally in awe of your fantastic work!
You, Sir, are a true artist at your craft.
And yeah, still learning about arquebuses. Very complex, but at the same time, rather simple. And even in the 1500 and 1600's, using a rear peep sight! Fascinating how men continually evolve the method of slaying an enemy. It seems that a lot of early gunsmiths were artists also - Michelangelo was for sure!
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Is this any better?
(https://preview.ibb.co/gRbLwp/DSCN2765_Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkJpp9)
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Thank you John, for 'washing me blanket!....... It looks a bit brighter now!
One last shot of the original;
Thanks to Michael for sharing his wonderful old guns!
(https://preview.ibb.co/kgSFz9/1_75s_a232177_a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n83Ymp)
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WOW!!!
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Gun looks really cool Richard. As I enlarge the picture of the original, I see that the concave fluting are narrow while the ground between is wider and tapers. On the side "flats", they appear to me to be concave too, and the angle 'flat' convex. this is an interesting treatment and adds a lot of charm to the muzzle.
I love the colour you achieved, of the wood. All in all, very neat work.