AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on September 11, 2018, 11:26:01 PM
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It seems like every week there is a new post on the latest patch lube. Do you really think Daniel Boone, Davey, Crockett, and the long hunters constantly changed their lube? If it works for you, gives good accuracy, and the needed viscosity for your region stick with it. Mine is a lube for cartridge black powder shooters mixed with an equal amount of 100% pure Neatsfoot oil. Quit spending your time trying the latest concoction and go to the range and shoot more. Your groups will get smaller with practice.
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I'm still trying to figure out how they get the Whale Sperm Oil. Daniel Boone and Dave’s Crockett must have been pretty clever :o
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Sperm Whale oil USED to be legal until the treehuggers had it banned. Brownells used to sell it by the quart.
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Muskrat,
Who changes lube constantly?
I've been using the same one successfully for over 25 years.
I think those that are experimenting, are searching for the right one for themselves.
Just trying to understand the premise for your posting.
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The only lubes I've used for years are TOW mink oil and Hoppes #9 BP Lube. If anything works better it's way beyond my $$ means.
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Yup! Hard to beat mink oil for hunting and liquid lube for targets.
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i melt in "gato feo" bullet lube to patch strips for cutting at the muzzle or ball boards.
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Gato Feo LOL!!!
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yep, good ol' crazy cat lube. the stuff is killer and easy to make ...
GATO FEO LUBE
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by weight, double boiler melted ...
1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part paraffin canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part filtered beeswax
"but isn't paraffin canning wax a petroleum product"?
a chemist provided what seems a plausible answer:
PURE canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products.
apparently, these hydrocarbons are the offenders with black powder guns.
i make a block of GF in a milk carton, then slice it up. then use a chunk to prelube patch strips ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQnAcCnAOek
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Tallow, tallow, tallow. Venison, bear, or mutton, PERIOD. Bees wax is problematic in several ways, so is paraffin. This is probably the most over thought subject in muzzleloading.
Hungry Horse
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Tallow, tallow, tallow. Venison, bear, or mutton, PERIOD. Bees wax is problematic in several ways, so is paraffin. This is probably the most over thought subject in muzzleloading.
Hungry Horse
there is nothing problematic with proper beeswax and paraffin. mixed with a good non-rancid tallow such as mutton (venison and bear will go rancid), it makes a fine patch lube where most of it will stay in the cloth weave, in a ball board - straight tallow typically won't do that over time. a board i loaded last year with gato feo is as good today as then. gato feo lube is also one mainstay of the bpcr grease groove boys, and has no nasty barrel effect from black powder ignition. i no longer use it since going to paper patched slicks, but have used it with match winning results for years prior.
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Doc Shoultz dry patch system OR Lehigh Valley for roundballs and MCM for Minies.
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"Gato feo" translates to "ugly cat". Crazy cat would be "gato loco"
Rendered beef tallow - kidney fat - has a lot of uses, including "fixin' wax", which is mixing in some beeswax to beef tallow. You can use it on about anything without ill effect. If you get some peppermint oil, and mix that in, it makes good chapstick. And in an emergency, you can eat it. Also stick a wick in it for a candle. I mix it all up, and make little cakes of it. I generally have an Altoid tin or two, or one of those little cans you get from MBS or TOTW. I give them as Christmas presents. It will work on wood or metal, and is a great lube for lock innards.
Rendering beef tallow - just heat the kidney fat (large chunk of billowy white fat) over a low heat, and filter out the non-melted parts. Stir in some beeswax, and add flavoring oil if you wish. Old ice cube trays make great molds. And yeah, it is used for patches as in the above short video.
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The British army had access to everything the chemistry of the day offered that they could have used as patch/paper lubricants. They stuck with mutton tallow and bees wax from the first issue rifle Pattern 1776 right up to the Pattern 1853 Enfield. They had to be used from the winter of Canada to desert summers without varying the mix.
I sometimes play about with assorted weird waxes and oils but the old tallow/bees wax always works. The only change I have found useful so far is adding a small amount of anhydrous lanolin for conicals as it makes the mix stick to the lead better but that is a convenience for me not the rifle.
The only patch method that equalled it was the Wild system but that needs careful measuring of the water. When it worked it worked well. When it did not work it really did not work.
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I've recently switched from Bore butter to Jojoba oil ( replacement for sperm whale oil) and couldn't be happier. Much easier to load, improved accuracy.
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gentlemen: This is my first post even though I have been a member of this forum for several years, and a lurker even longer. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of you the last three years at the CLA and Lake Cumberland and especially the ALR lunch party at the CLA show this year. Many of you will remember me as I packed around my most recent build-a Hudson Valley fowler on Friday at the show. Thank you Mike Brooks, Old Traveller, Ky-Flinter, C.C. Fidler, Bob Lienemann, and so many others for making my day. To all who post on this forum; even though I have been building from the plank on a mostly hobby basis since '82, I still learn something new and useful every day from you guys. You are much appreciated! Now to the issue at hand: I have been using a patch lube mixture of 50/50 bear oil and buffalo tallow for the last 30 years and besides being period correct, it works perfectly for me. Another plus, when hunting in high humidity situations, I prime the pan, then take a toothpick size twig and put a small bead of this lube around the top sides of the pan, then close the frizzen and put another small bead between the frizzen and the barrel. I never open the pan to check the prime after that; I just assume that all is well. I have never had this practice to fail me even in a downpour of rain. just my 2 cents on this topic. Oh yes, my moniker is my ancestors name that I used years ago at reinactments at Ft. DeChartres, Mansker's Station, Cumberland Gap, and many others. Uncle Hiram- Rick Anthony
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Tallow, tallow, tallow. Venison, bear, or mutton, PERIOD. Bees wax is problematic in several ways, so is paraffin. This is probably the most over thought subject in muzzleloading.
Hungry Horse
I mostly use deer tallow. I clean it in 3-4 changes of water. (no smell and slick) I also have some bear oil I use from time to time.
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All around tallow is best. Beef or Deer. Kidney fat is best to start with. Boil 3 times or 4 on clean water, taking the tallow off the pot when its cold. DO NOT SALT THE TALLOW as soap makers do. This stuff will protect a bore for months. . If you start putting in Beeswax and other hard waxes it gets too hard. GG bullet lube is not the same application as patch lube. Though SPG Lube will work on patches when its warm. Cold weather? Neatsfoot oil....
If you use Beeswax melt it carefully in a double boiler and be SURE its not contaminated with honey.. It makes Beeswax almost an anti-lubricant.
A long time friend of mine has made literally tons of bullet lube over the years. Honey is poison to lube and heating without a double boiler is too...
Dan
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Good stuff Dan.
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Beeswax will decidedly NOT get too hard when temps are over 100 degrees, which is common where I live even during deer season. I add a *small* percentage to my tallow lube to prevent it from becoming a gooey runny slobbery mess in hot weather.
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Last word !?!
(https://image.ibb.co/ejgrnK/hard_laff.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
good luck with that. ;)
My last word: yes I prefer using lube, and will likely continue. :D
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All around tallow is best. Beef or Deer. Kidney fat is best to start with. Boil 3 times or 4 on clean water, taking the tallow off the pot when its cold. DO NOT SALT THE TALLOW as soap makers do. This stuff will protect a bore for months. . If you start putting in Beeswax and other hard waxes it gets too hard. GG bullet lube is not the same application as patch lube. Though SPG Lube will work on patches when its warm. Cold weather? Neatsfoot oil....
If you use Beeswax melt it carefully in a double boiler and be SURE its not contaminated with honey.. It makes Beeswax almost an anti-lubricant.
A long time friend of mine has made literally tons of bullet lube over the years. Honey is poison to lube and heating without a double boiler is too...
Dan
I may be able to get this at a local grocery store.
Do you think it could be used to make a patch lube?
(https://preview.ibb.co/mDpD2K/6097494_E_F6_CE_406_A_AEA8_7_B572_E6_A71_DD.png) (https://ibb.co/gwTj9z)
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TOW Mink Oil may be misleading for those who haven't tried it. It's really mink tallow. It's a paste.
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Bear grease.
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I use the TOW mink oil lube on patches, lightly. It isn't really an oil til it gets hot. Stays softly solid most of the time but I live in Yuma Az. and it kind of melts. No harm, just gets runny. Works well on a lightly lubed patch.
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Often overlooked is a lube many used in the past. Vegetable shortening (Crisco). You could use worse.
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The only patch lube I use is spit. it has worked good for me for 25 years.
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Crisco might change the length of your barrel because
It is shortening...lol
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Can it be tobacco spit?
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In dry country Crisco patches with set a fire faster than you can with a match. So you could do a whole lot better.
Hungry Horse
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Spit patches on the range and in decent temps (I dump my loads when I quit for the day) Dry lube patches for the first shot while hunting. I keep three patches wet in my cheek when hunting in case I need a second shot. Has worked for years. I really liked the old Ox Yoke dry lubed patch material.
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Often overlooked is a lube many used in the past. Vegetable shortening (Crisco). You could use worse.
When I started shooting ML'ers back in the mid 70's Crisco and spit were the patch lubes recommended to use. I used some of both, mostly Crisco though. I used it for years with no problems once I learned it's limitations. Like when match shooting I'd shoot 3 shots then clean with a spit patch, then shoot the next 2. It is a good hunting lube, it doesn't dry out and won't rust your barrel. I don't have a problem with using it again. It's a good choice around here as the bear are scarce and the whales all gone.
I've never seen or heard of a crisco lubed patch catching on fire except for what HH says. But I don't live in the high dry desert either so maybe it's not suited for all locations.
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I don't think there will ever be a last word re. patch lube.
On another forum they are discussing how deer tallow is no use. I don't post over there anymore, but have used it for decades and it is a grand lube for hunting I think.
Yes, in Cold weather, (minus 20 and colder) I sometimes have to hold a patch in my mouth a few seconds to limber it up, as it sets like canvas otherwise, but it works very well as a lube and will not hurt a barrel.
Each to his own.
I always thought Crisco caused me a Lot more fouling, and lanolin was Real hard to clean out!
For shooting sessions, I'd like some of you blokes to give the "Udderly Smoothe" a try. it comes in a black and white tub (like a Holstein) from Walmart.
I use this and it Never fouls up. ..as in, you can shoot all day and not have to wipe the bore.
No, I don't own shares in the company. :-)
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Ballistol seems to do pretty well. I might make a batch of lubed patches using olive oil and a bit of beeswax.
Although... I do have an old bottle of Neatsfoot oil. Always wondered how many Neats it took to fill that bottle. Are there hordes of Neats running around somewhere without feet?
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I don't think there will ever be a last word re. patch lube.
On another forum they are discussing how deer tallow is no use. I don't post over there anymore, but have used it for decades and it is a grand lube for hunting I think.
Yes, in Cold weather, (minus 20 and colder) I sometimes have to hold a patch in my mouth a few seconds to limber it up, as it sets like canvas otherwise, but it works very well as a lube and will not hurt a barrel.
Each to his own.
I always thought Crisco caused me a Lot more fouling, and lanolin was Real hard to clean out!
For shooting sessions, I'd like some of you blokes to give the "Udderly Smoothe" a try. it comes in a black and white tub (like a Holstein) from Walmart.
I use this and it Never fouls up. ..as in, you can shoot all day and not have to wipe the bore.
No, I don't own shares in the company. :-)
I am curious how this compares to Tracks Mink Oil? Been trying different lubes for over 40 years and have settled on spit for target and Mink oil for hunting purposes. Hate to start experimenting again.
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Ballistol seems to do pretty well. I might make a batch of lubed patches using olive oil and a bit of beeswax.
Although... I do have an old bottle of Neatsfoot oil. Always wondered how many Neats it took to fill that bottle. Are there hordes of Neats running around somewhere without feet?
I’m surprised the ASPCA hasn’t been investigating why all
Of those Neats don’t have feet!
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Frank,
If you get a tub and don't like it, your wife and self can use it as it's meant to be used, as a real nice hand -cream. :-)
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Pukka, I'm going to try that Udderly Smooth cream. At worst, I can use it in winter when my hands get really dry.
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Let us know how you fare with it, Bones.
Yes, I use it, wife does and dog used to on her little sunburned nose!
Designed originally for cows udders of course, but Shania Twain uses it on her face and looks Good. :-)
Not saying You will look as good though..... ;)
Note, The stuff in the tub is best. The tube variety is V runny.
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Some feed stores carry "Bag Balm" instead of Udderly Smooth, About the same thing, and it does help a lot with chapped skin.
Timbotide, I am surprised that there are any Neats or Naugas alive any more. There in the 70's and 80's, I thought Naugas were going to be posted 0n the Endangered Species list. Both are good.
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Most of the nags were killed off in the 70's , many of them going to manufacture the interiors of Cordobas....or maybe it was the Corinthians who were killed off ? Can't remember exactly ;)
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Craig,
Bag balm will cause you grief if you use it as a lube. Twust me Old Sport... :-)
I think neatsfoot likely sounded better to the makers than "Nagsfoot".
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So many of us recommend TOW Mink Oil I don't understand why some look for something else. At least try it and see if those who use it are right.
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Richard, I think I will stick to spit for now. Although some of my heart pills make my mouth so dry I can't speak. I also have some synthetic sperm whale oil that I haven't tried yet.
What ever I use, I do not use to excess - patch is barely lubed, which seems to work well.
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Pukka
Had to buy a tub of the Udderly Smooth creme after reading your enticing endorsement. I have to say the creme works mighty fine as a patch lube. Seemed to prevent the blown/burnt patches on this one rifle that is giving me fits trying to find the right patch-bullet diameter combo......and still be able to load with out a mallet!
thanks
kw
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Crisco was nothing but trouble for me in any gun I ever used it in, it fouled up so bad compared to deer or bear tallow . Wonder lube was just as bad in any gun I used. I won a jar of the stuff and gave it to a guy I didn't like. ;D
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Pukka
Had to buy a tub of the Udderly Smooth creme after reading your enticing endorsement. I have to say the creme works mighty fine as a patch lube. Seemed to prevent the blown/burnt patches on this one rifle that is giving me fits trying to find the right patch-bullet diameter combo......and still be able to load with out a mallet!
thanks
kw
Very please it works for you KW! and again, I don't have shares in the company!
I started using it in a B-loader BP rifle in .577",and it went from there.
(I thought afterwards, I should have stareted "Re-potting it" and selling it at a big mark up, LOL!)
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Pukka,
Do you just work some Udderly Smooth into a patch, or perhaps melt a dollop of the crème and let it absorb into a stack of patches?
Next time I order from TOTW, I will order some mink oil, as well. So many members speak highly of it, there must be something to it.
The Udderly Smooth will help my hands in winter, so having some around isn't a bad idea, regardless.
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This thread reminds me of that old song “ How can I miss you when you won’t go away”. This subject gets chewed, and regurgitated, so often, that I’ve come to believe nobody ever reads what’s been said in the past. Bottom line is, if you lube your patches with anything that has ingredients in that you aren’t familiar with, you’re asking for trouble. Animal grease, or tallow, with no other ingredients is the answer.
This threads twin sister is the “ I have a crusty spot at the breech of my barrel, and don’t know why”thread. Oddball patch lubes are almost always the cause. That unfortunately often includes lubes manufacture specifically for our chosen sport in many cases.
A single patch lube that will perform well in screaming hot summer, and bone chilling cold winter, are very much like unicorns, when it comes to finding them.
I use venison tallow in the summer, where I live. Summers here are screaming hot, and deer season runs through late summer, and early fall, 110 degrees in the heat of the day are not unheard off. Even on the hottest days, I’ve never seen even a wisp of smoke from a spent patch. Winter days can see temperatures in the twenties, making tallow pretty stiff. So I add bear oil to the mix to make it more cold temperature friendly. All these natural lubes have good lubricity, and a very high flash point.
Hungry Horse
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Bones,
I just work it into the patch for shooting sessions. Melting it won't work, as it has a percentage of water.
Old Hoss,
I can't help it if it works. It started working when I found it maybe 15 years ago. we slather it on pretty thick at times and it still works, and for a musket, we load with thick felt wad, a ball, a great dollop of U.Smoothe and another thick felt wad.
Afraid No crud rings as it has nothing in it in the way of petroleum chemicals. No I am Not saying it is the only thing to use, but found it was the One thing that made my converted .577" rifles shoot Consistently.
We have a "Something Challenge " at our annual shoot here on the farm. It is for guns we do not mention here, and my old gun has won it 5 times out of 8. and my eyes aren't a patch on what they were. Range is 150 yards, no rests but prone OK.
Mind, Now, Most everyone uses the same potion, LOL! We can check our barrels after 10 or 30 shots and still see rifling all the way down. Or more. I don't swab between shoots, and my rifle is most times used by five of us, and the targets are the B 17, and 13 shots, best ten for score, so it has a Lot of powder, (@ 70 grs a time) and lead through it with no washing out, and I often shoot it near the end.
It's not a miracle, as for hunting it would damp the powder in time, and maybe rust, just like spit will. For hunting I use deer tallow.
Like I said, it's not a miracle, but it does work. ;)
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Horse,
I get what you're saying... but for relatively new members like me, I find it educational to read these threads. Yes, I have read the whole thing. For me, it is enlightening to see all the variations of patch lube that work for various members here. For someone like me, with very little muzzleloading background, I would have assumed that there are only certain lubes that work, but clearly there are lots of variations that work for a variety of situations.
FWIW, I would love to use deer and bear tallow... but I have access to neither.
Nevertheless, you have inspired me to finally try that old bottle of Neatsfoot oil... I hope it's still good, though... it has been stored in a non-climate-controlled storage, which gets really hot in summertime. It looks fine... not cloudy or congealed.
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bones, get beef and mutton tallow online ... https://grasslandbeef.com/osearch?q=tallow
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bones, get beef and mutton tallow online ... https://grasslandbeef.com/osearch?q=tallow
I bought 14 lbs. of sheep tallow from them several months ago because DGW was out of it and didn't know when they'd get more in,.... I had to buy that much because of Grasslandbeef's $75.00 "minimum order" policy.
At least I won't have to re-order any more for a looooooooong time. :o :)
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Order from grasslands as a sample (one time)and you will just pay shipping ,you have to ask
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Order from grasslands as a sample (one time)and you will just pay shipping ,you have to ask
I ordered 7 of the 2lb. tubs of sheep tallow from them and didn't see any mention of samples,.... how much do they send out as a "sample"?
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Yes grassland beef aka US Wellness Meats is my go-to source. Try the lamb tallow as well. Another suggestion in lieu of $75 worth of tallow, unless of course you're shootin' a bevy of 6-pounders, I fill out my order with a couple of steaks or lamb chops. You'll have $75 worth afore ya even know it!
Of course my favorite natural lube is bear oil but mink oil tallow from Track works real good for hunting. I also like original Lehigh Valley Lube and a 10-1 mix of water-Ballistol. Come to think of it, I remember Birchwood Casey's black powder solvent worked good too as a range lube.
Part of the fun of muzzleloaders besides the shootin' is trying different things for yourself. It's in the spirit of that rugged individualism thing. Ya can get some real good advice on this board, I know I have, but experiment and experience for yourself as well. Good stuff!
Best regards
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A friend generously gave me a nice supply of bear oil, so I am going to give that a try on my next trip to the range.
I also obtained a supply of "synthetic sperm whale oil", which I have chosen to use on a few rifles as a lubricant. Will let folks know how both of the oils work out.
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https://www.corganic.com/products/beef-tallow?variant=32822243657&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI86f9uObg3QIVFMRkCh3OzACpEAQYASABEgIWTfD_BwE
Cheaper
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14 ounces (($17.99 + $14.95 shipping) = ~$33 per 14 oz. jar = WOW! It is cheaper but ----
J.B.
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Come on all you have to do is, kill a fat deer, parboil the ribs ( and then throw them on the Bbq) let the water from the boiling get cold, and skim the white grease off the top of the water. BBD’d ribs, and FREE patch lube.
Hungry Horse
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I may have missed any talk about break free as a patch lube so I'll ask is it okay to use as I have a good supply thanks
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I may have missed any talk about break free as a patch lube so I'll ask is it okay to use as I have a good supply thanks
Nope.
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Okay could you please explain why? Thanks
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It's a petroleum product.
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Seems to me, Break Free CLP was developed to keep the modern select fire rifles working in Viet Nam - thus - I am sure, it is a synthetic and being either a synthetic or a petroleum product,
CLP oil will not nicely soften BP fouling. To soften the fouling which allows the new patched ball to be shoved down easily without wiping & without loss of accuracy, the lube must mix with and
become one with the fouling. Animal oils like Mink Oil and Neetsfoot oil do mix with and soften the fouling allowing repeat shooting ad-nausium before cleaning or wet wiping is necessary. This also
takes a good smoothly rounded muzzle crown (by paper or cloth or file) and nice tight ball and patch combination to work well.
Some people want to wipe between shots and use combinations that are easily thumb started and loaded in clean barrels - whatever you want.
I will note, that if thumb started balls (V-loose combinations) were as accurate as tight combinations, ALL match shooters would be using such easily loaded combinations - they don't and for a
very good reason - they need accuracy to win. In fact, many of them use oversized balls (larger than the groove diameter) and .022" patches as well.
If accuracy is not a prime requisite for you, then use whatever you desire for lube - you are in control.
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i spoke with DGW yesterday and they will be offering mutton tallow again, shortly.
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Canola oil is cheap....and works!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1916/31704955278_12be320bd1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QiEbBY)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QiEbBY) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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Sharpsman
Glad to see another shooter with a Dimick rifle! I have been dialing in my new .54 Dimick. I gave the Udderly Smooth cream a try for lube and am getting good 100 yd groups but the sights are the limiting factor here for me. I smeared some on a piece of polished steel 2 weeks ago for a rust test and there is none. So no fear on leaving my rifle loaded. Having used bear, mutton tallow for years but I just intrigued by this product that has lanolin in it.
best
kw
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Sharpsman
Glad to see another shooter with a Dimick rifle! I have been dialing in my new .54 Dimick. I gave the Udderly Smooth cream a try for lube and am getting good 100 yd groups but the sights are the limiting factor here for me. I smeared some on a piece of polished steel 2 weeks ago for a rust test and there is none. So no fear on leaving my rifle loaded. Having used bear, mutton tallow for years but I just intrigued by this product that has lanolin in it.
best
kw
Udderly Smooth, eh? Might have to try it. Neetsfoot oil will give the same good accuracy and rust prevention.
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I use pure lanolin for my skin and to reduce cuticle splits in Winter. Hmmm, never smeared it on a patch. But it does go back in history as far as domestic wool does, and that's the sort of thing I like.
It was used to protect metal on ships/boats BITD, if the info I've read was correct. Sounds quite plausible to me.
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Needs to soften bp fouling - have to try it, is all, Wade. Let us know how it works.
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Needs to soften bp fouling - have to try it, is all, Wade. Let us know how it works.
Well adding water (BP solvent you know) requires emulsifiers, and things just got complicated, so I just might -not- fool with it. Thanks for the support however. ;)
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Lanolin I tried Once. (and Only Once!)
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There is a difference which could be a huge difference, in what is needed for a lube, depending on the shooting style and needs of the shooter. The requirements of a lube wherein the gun gets
"wiped" between shots, is VERY much different from the lube requirements where the gun is not wiped for an entire day's shooting, ie: that of a "seemingly clean shooting" lube.
The first lube only needs to help seal the bore and give a somewhat sliding passage of the ball down to the powder, then out the bore and rifling when fired, so that the patch is not burned through
by the flame and pressure behind the ball and the ball is delivered to the target - accurately.
The second lube in the same way, must also protect the ball from the flame and pressure, but must also leave 'some softening agent' in the fouling that remains in the bore. 56 or 57% of a black powder's charge results in solid waste. Some %age of that solid waste is ejected from the muzzle while some %age of that solid waste remains in the bore. That waste which remains in the bore
must not cake quickly and must remain soft enough to allow the next ball and patch be loaded.
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56 or 57% of a black powder's charge results in solid waste. Some %age of that solid waste is ejected from the muzzle while some %age of that solid waste remains in the bore. That waste which remains in the bore
I finally took my new rifle out to the range after finishing it to make the final adjustment on the sights. Its the first muzzle loader I've owned so I don't speak with any experience. When I loaded the first charge (50 cal - with .490 / .015 prb & 50 g of FFF) I gave it the recommended tamping and marked the ram rod at the muzzle. After about 6 shots with no wiping between shots I noticed that the ball seemed to feel firmly seated by just pushing and a slight tap with the ram rod but, but consistently did not get to the original mark. Would stop short by 1/4" Then I would give it some considerable pounding with a range rod and get it to within 1/8".
I was probably over doing it but kept remembering all the warnings I had read about ensuring that the ball was fully seated on the powder. After another 30 shots the ball was consistently short of that original mark.
Is the amount of build up I was seeing normal?
Was I compressing powder or deforming the lead ball?
Also I'm pretty sure I was using too much mink oil as the spent patches had a crusty layer of black hard crystals on the back side of them?
Thanks.
Richard
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Last word !?!
good luck with that. ;)
;D I'm with you Wade. Had a good laugh when I saw the topic of this thread. (By the way - for the last six years I've used nothing but Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil as the patch lube on all of my round ball guns.)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/979/27310395157_f176d50634_z.jpg)
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Last word !?!
good luck with that. ;)
;D I'm with you Wade. Had a good laugh when I saw the topic of this thread. (By the way - for the last six years I've used nothing but Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil as the patch lube on all of my round ball guns.)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/979/27310395157_f176d50634_z.jpg)
Does the LW play well with Black Powder in terms of
Not creating tar in the barrel? I may have to try LW
When I get my Kibler SMR.
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They get along quite well Timbotide.
I use pre-cut patches, mostly pillow tick but also some pocket drill and linen from a table cloth purchased at a Goodwill Thrift store.
I stack a dozen or two patches together and squirt the stack with LW. Then massage the stack with my fingers. Once the oil is evenly distributed throughout, I wrap the stack in a paper towel and squeeze everything together so the towel takes up any excess oil. The patches will feel almost dry and be quite pleasant to handle.
I use this method in all of my ball shooters from .32 to .58 caliber. Some guns like the patch very dry, some like it a tiny bit moister. I've been shooting frontstuffers for over 50 years and, like most guys here, have experimented with all kinds of patch lube. The LW patches give me accuracy that equals or exceeds (mostly exceeds) any other patch lube I've used. I suspect the consistency of the amount of lube on each patch has a lot to do with that.
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I’m glad to know this. Seems like LW would also offer good rust prevention.
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Semisane - do you shoot without wiping, or do you have to wipe the bore at any time?
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I generally wipe between shots Daryl. I know paper punching is not for everyone. But I'm one of those loons who enjoy punching holes in paper and trying to get them as close together as I can. Wiping between shots keeps the bore in pretty much the same condition for each shot. That consistency gives me a better chance of producing a group of holes who are real friendly with each other.
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There’s fouling generated with shooting black powder. If you do not clean between shots you push it down with the patched ball. It takes up some volume.
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Never considered Liquid Wrench for a patch lube but I also don't argue with actual results. Glad to hear it's not causing any of the issues we hear about regarding the use of petroleum products in combination with blackpowder.
Because I'm a Chemist, and curious...I did a little research on it and found the following information in the MSDS (material Safety data sheet):
70-80% of Liquid Wrench Penetrating oil is "Hydrotreated light petroleum distallates" which are defined by the US EPA Substance Registry Services as:
A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9 through C16 and boiling in the range of approximately 150.degree.C to 290.degree.C (302.degree.F to 554.degree.F).
Additionally, from 5-<10% is 1,6,10-dodecatriene, 7,11-dimethyl-3-methylene-, (6e)-,Hydrogenated
There's also from 10-<20% "Other compounds at less than reportable levels, and CO2 (propellant in the aerosol version)
Fascinating. :)
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Thanks for posting about your wiping between shot routine, Semisane. I did not expect the Liquid Wrench to keep the fouling soft, but maybe it will work that way as a patch lube - a test needs to be done with it, without wiping.
Seems to me, a fouling softening lube is not necessary for target work where the bore is wiped between shots. Many target shooters use up to .022" thick denim with teflon coating for target work with a ball up to .007" LARGER than the bore. The Dutch Schultz method (that you can buy from him) using Ballistol & water that is dried, but as well, this needs wiping between shots as it will not keep the fouling soft.
If wiping is necessary, then the Liquid Wrench is not going to work for us, as we choose not to wipe between shots. Thanks for the notes on it and NICE target - just under 1 1/2" it looks. Good group.
There’s fouling generated with shooting black powder. If you do not clean between shots you push it down with the patched ball. It takes up some volume.
Not sure what you mean by "takes up volume", Rich. 56% to 57% of the BP charge burned, is solid waste of course. Some of that stays in the bore as fouling after the shot, the rest is blown clear. Whatever is left in the bore after the shot, is pushed down as the patched ball is pressed down onto the powder charge of the next shot just as you noted. However ALL of that comes back out with that shot. It does not build or stay in the bore.
The only buildup, is in that area near the breech where the powder charge sits. For those who shoot without wiping, that area never gets wiped during a shooting session, whether it is a trail walk, shooting match, testing at the range, or hunting. We clean after the shooting is over for the day. Generally, water based for target work, oil or an animal grease for hunting.
If however, there is a length of time between the last shot and the next time the gun is loaded, THAT next shot will be slightly harder to push down - crunchy as the powder fouling in the bore has had a chance to dry out.
There will likely be a slight loss in accuracy of that shot, say on a trail walk, however the loss of accuracy, is generally not noticed on a trail walk due to the close range shots and size of the targets. If it will or you think it might make a difference, calling a fouling shot and discharging that load then loading afresh, works just fine - every time.
I've not been to a match which will not allow that if you desire. Fire it off, then reload. I have done this myself on our own trail, hitting the target with the called 'fouling' shot, then loading and missing it with my scoring shot. ::) IT happens.
There is some buildup in the breech area,shot to shot of course (if you shoot without wiping), but we've shot up to 100 and more shots without wiping or cleaning and the fouling buildup in the powder chamber area has caused no problems nor effected accuracy in any way that we can see. There never is ANY buildup in the bore itself, where the ball rides.
Due to the buildup in the breech, the rod simply will not go down to the same spot or mark on the rod, as the first few shots so easily do. THAT buildup does take up space. Forcing the rod to that mark will require heavy compression of the powder charge, which will change it's burn rate and THAT will adversely effect accuracy.
On the other hand, loading to the same "pressure" on the powder, each and every shot, will ensure consistent accuracy and a consistent 'condition' inside the bore. This is easy to do with a snug load that cleans the previous shot as you load the next one, just as Ned Roberts wrote in "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" 1934, I think it was published.
Thus, there is no buildup in the area where the patched ball rides in and out, doesn't matter how many shots you make, as long as you use a lube that keeps the fouling soft, shot to shot. For target work, water based lubes work just fine, and for hunting, rendered animal fats (those without salt) seem to work very well.
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Never considered Liquid Wrench for a patch lube but I also don't argue with actual results. Glad to hear it's not causing any of the issues we hear about regarding the use of petroleum products in combination with blackpowder.
Because I'm a Chemist, and curious...I did a little research on it and found the following information in the MSDS (material Safety data sheet):
70-80% of Liquid Wrench Penetrating oil is "Hydrotreated light petroleum distallates" which are defined by the US EPA Substance Registry Services as:
A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9 through C16 and boiling in the range of approximately 150.degree.C to 290.degree.C (302.degree.F to 554.degree.F).
Additionally, from 5-<10% is 1,6,10-dodecatriene, 7,11-dimethyl-3-methylene-, (6e)-,Hydrogenated
There's also from 10-<20% "Other compounds at less than reportable levels, and CO2 (propellant in the aerosol version)
Fascinating. :)
Don,
The thing about petroleum products in the bore of a BP gun goes back to the 1980s. Common petroleum greases were being sold as lubes in black powder guns. During powder combustion the sulfur would cause the petroleum oils, in the greases, to form asphaltic coatings on the bore walls back in the section of the bore where gas temperatures are high. This would include the mineral oil used in some lubes. The lubes based on petroleum waxes would not form asphalt in the bore. The grease lube sold by T/C was the same grease they used to lube their metal working machinery. The Blue and Grey brand lube was nothing more than automotive wheel bearing grease repackaged.
The old Ox-Yoke Wonder lube was a petroleum wax with some mineral oil and an oil soluble dye to make the shooter think it was beeswax based. The mineral oil portion of that lube would create a very thin film of asphalt in the bore. Not enough to interfere with loading a projectile. But if you went into the bore with a common tar removing solvent you would remove the thin film.
The petroleum greases created havoc in ml rifles back in the late 1970s and 1980s. The asphalt buildup in the breach area was one of the problems that resulted in bulged or burst barrels. The asphalt would build up and keep the shooter from seating the projectile on the charge. I looked into the lube and sulfur thing. Sulfur was used in certain petroleum crude oils stocks to make asphalt. Simply add finely ground elemental sulfur to the crude oil in a reaction vessel and heat for a number of hours and you would get asphalt. Basically a similar thing was going on in the bp gun bore.
Bill K.
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Similar to what Daryl posted, I find it easy to develop a routine that allows shot after shot to be fired without wiping. Along with this is the advantage of accuracy staying the same regardless of how many shots fired. The lube and patching material have a major hand in continous shooting without wiping. My favorite lubes are mink oil for the bush and Hoppes BP Lube for the range.
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Taylor and I used spit, as well as Mr. Flintlock's lube for the Hawken barrel full length at 36" and shortened to 30" testing.
(https://image.ibb.co/g013Hq/100-8102.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mP5Vxq)
(https://image.ibb.co/cJ2ccq/100-8103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gYeOHq)
(https://image.ibb.co/jbBQVA/before-and-after.png) (https://ibb.co/eyQkVA)
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I have certainly settled on deer tallow, although I somes cut it because it gets awful hard when it gets cold.
And I've experimented a lot too.
But I think you are right. Find what works for you, then don't look back. That said, you are still going to get a lot of traffic here on lubes because people get new guns, new people start shooting, and everyone has a different demand on their guns.
My go-to loading sequence is to shoot, run a spitpatch down once, reload. It seems to be the best way to get good accuracy. However I dislike having to swab between shots, so after I find a load that works this way, I'll try to tweak it by experimenting with lubes to see if I can get it to perform well without swabbing. Some guns will shoot well without swabbing, some don't.
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Interesting supposition, BJ Janaviac. I've been shooting muzzle loading rifles since 72. I had some fouling problems at times, until about mid to late 1973.
After learning to use thicker patches, I found I never had to wipe the bore while shooting. Shoot all day, no loss in accuracy - shoot, shoot, shoot.
Up to and the odd time well over 100shots - not needing wiping.
I Have tested wiping between shots, in a number of rifles, after hearing or reading this was necessary to get good consistent accuracy. I have been
unable to prove that 'premise' in any gun I've tested - likely over 12 and maybe as many as 15 different barrels.
I'm sorry to disagree with you - for us - all of us up here, using a .005" smaller ball than the bore, along with a 10oz. or at least .020" (20 thousandths) patch
none of us EVER needs to wipe while shooting the trail, whether it's 20 shots that day, or 75 shots.
The accuracy testing above was to attempt to show a drop in accuracy if we cut the Toenjes barrel. My shooting was not very good as I'd never shot that gun
nor it's sights before. It was good enough, however, to show the barrel lost literally nothing in the shortening process, nor did it matter that we'd shot off likely
30 or 40 shots without wiping, in either length. I did fire some offhand shots at the 100 (109yds) meter berm, at dark 'spots' sticks, small rocks or small clumps of shrubs.
They were all easily hit. It is about 115 yards to the mid height of that berm or bank.
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Daryl,
How easy is it to start those loads with a ball 0.005" < bore & a heavy patch?
Do you use a short starter?
And what lube do you use?
If you found that wiping between shots produced accuracy just as good as the loading process you usually use, then we are not really disagreeing. My only claim was that, the between-shot wipe is what I found to work with just about any gun I pick up. Over the course of the last decade I've had to introduce a number of people to muzzleloading so I would just direct them towards the between-shot wipe because it was easiest to explain to a newby and I was confident that the loading method would work.
Now my method for shooting without wiping involves a rather thick grease cookie between the powder and the ball. This works fantastic for some guns, but other guns it doesn't work well at all.
Your method has piqued my interest. If it is easy to start, I'll consider it. Do you do anything special to the crown to make starting easier?
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Note the second set of targets above. .034" patch, and .595" ball. These loaded almost as easily as the .022" patch and .595" ball,
however did not cut nor burn the patch in any way. Even though the thinner patch did not fill the .028" depth of rifling, the barrel still
showed promise in giving good accuracy. It was tight enough to not need wiping, nor did the tighter load.
Yes - of course, short starter is used. The rifle must have a good crown. It must be smooth - no sharp edges as those bunch-up, cut
and bind on the ball. With a smooth crown, the ball and patch conform smoothly to the depth of the grooves.
I noted that with the combinations I use, tighter grouping did not happen when I wiped between shots. When I first started
shooting, I had to wipe due to fouling buildup. Not every shot, but too often. I read and re-read Ned's book and finally 2+2 equal'd 4
and I/we did not have to wipe - ever again while testing or shooting for that day. We discovered certain combinations shot cleanly,
that is, the fouling NEVER built up, shot to shot, but the bore remained CONSTANT in it's condition, and accuracy was as good as it gets.
Previously, with loads that did not shoot cleanly, accuracy was not as good as after we discovered how to load the rifles.
What I call accuracy, is 1/2" at 50 yards and 1 to 1 1/2" at 100yards - in the larger calibres - shot 'dirty'. No wiping.
That rifle, my .69, would not do that when wiped between shots.
The best I could do with an 1861 .577 Enfield Musketoon with patched round balls at 100yards, was 3". The sights are REALLY close together when
the rifle has only a 24" bl.
The main reason we developed this method of not having to wipe, is were were simply following Ned Robert's teachings in "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle"
published in 1934. It spoke of his childhood growing up with a muzzleloading rifle & the schooling he got from his Uncle Alvaro on proper loading techniques.
Those did not involve having to wipe between shots, but if using a proper load combination, you could shoot all day without having to wipe the bore, as "when
you load the next one, you are wiping the previous one. The bore maintains exactly the same condition, shot to shot, thus the accuracy is unchanged.
Using combinations that do not fill the grooves, gives allowance for burning the patches, starting fires in dry areas, and having to wipe the bore when WE would
rather be shooting. I go to the range to shoot, not wipe the bore.
I guess I should do back to back tests now. My normal loading with thick patch, then wiping between shots using a combination that does not
shoot cleanly enough to do that - that will be a very loose load indeed - maybe even try something that can be thumb started. May have to wait until spring.
I will put a peep sight on the rifle just to make sure of a good sight picture.
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Thanks Daryl.
I am not following the math though. .007 grooves making a .594 g-g diameter; I am deducing this is a .58 double rifle.
.604 - .594 is .010" not .006".
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Thanks Daryl.
I am not following the math though. .007 grooves making a .594 g-g diameter; I am deducing this is a .58 double rifle.
.604 - .594 is .010" not .006".
.580+.007+.007 = 594" yes
.562" ball + .021 + .021 = 604 - 594 = .010" divided by 2 (1-groove each side) = .005" compression in the bottom of each groove - sorry - I was out 1 thousandths.
Before you posted this, I had edited, or perhaps while I was re-writing the post. I attempted to find the video I had made on loading and shooting the DR, but photobucket, were it was
stored, will not let me have access to my previous photos/videos unless I pay them a monthly fee.