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I really enjoyed David’s recent post on a plainly finished mountain rifle, and the many responses. Mike mentioned a well-shaped but simple Lehigh rifle, Taylor says these plain rifles shoot just as well, and Mike liked the lock work - the components still need to be correct on a plain rifle. CC Fiddler mentioned big name builders at CLA not wanting to build plain rifles – but my response has been the opposite. Some called this a rifleman’s rifle, low value but high use and well loved, and function over form. The profile and slim forend of David’s rifle suggest skill, while the finish is something else - the basics were done well with proper architecture, and the rest left to the buyer.
How many of the alr.com family are members of CLA? The summer 2017 issue of CLA’s American Tradition magazine had an article on “3 day longrifles” – an example of a rifle built and finished in 3 days, and other plain but attractive longrifles. It’s not right to reprint that here, but I could post a few rifles and notes from the topic. I’ve enjoyed plain but pretty rifles from Brooks, Kettenburg, Brennan, Martin, Netting and others. And they really enjoyed the chance to build a quick rifle.
I also experimented stocking a rifle as an 18th century farm boy, with guidance from a good maker but using common tools on the farm. Let me know if any of this is of interest?
Here are a couple teaser photos, Bob
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Wondering if I’m seeing a Kettenburg and a Martin there. Would love to see more of both and all the above.
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I also experimented stocking a rifle as an 18th century farm boy, with guidance from a good maker but using common tools on the farm. Let me know if any of this is of interest?
Yes! Indeed, what Rich said!
-Ron
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Over the years I have built a number of " Schimmel " type guns , "barn rifles" and "poor boys" . I like the challenge of a full blown Golden age rifle , but I also like the really simple stuff. I would love to see a movement of folks building nicely made very simple pieces other than trade type pieces ,many of which were pretty simple as well , but more of the one of a kind type. One of the great things about these simple pieces is , that you can do them fairly quickly, if you wish . They don`t take a long time to do like a lot of the more involved projects do. One thing about building the plainer pieces , anything out of whack shows more ! There isn't the "bling " to distract the eye , like on more fancy pieces . ;)In truth the are FUN!! and functional pieces to build that can draw a lot of oohs and ahs!! Look at the response to David Rase`s Super cool rifle. These are great starter pieces to get your feet wet , but it is really a treat when the highly skilled makers do them! I can`t help but wonder if the many , many plain rifles that got "used up" during the period , were stocked up by the apprentices , and as they progressed they worked on the more dolled up pieces. This is conjecture on my part , and I may stand to be corrected . I feel it is plausible , because there would have been a demand , and the more advanced apprentice would have been up to the task. I too would like to see more pics of these !! Break em out men ! let`s see your poor boys . ;D Thanks Nate
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I’ll begin with an original plan n perdy rifle from my first visit to Dixon’s Muzzleloading shop some 25 years ago. On the wall were several schimmels from the Blue Mountain area. One stood out with great lines, a full length swamped barrel in curly maple, and suggested Antes or Ferree. The unfinished stock had faded gray, with a speckled patina on the barrel and converted lock left bright, plus a trigger and plate, guard, one forward thimble and sights. Rasp marks were present on the stock except where worn smooth, file marks on the trigger guard, and the butt end of the stock was cut square. Unlike a finished schimmel, this looked like it was going to be a full blown rifle, but somehow got out the door at this stage of construction and never came back. The profile was taken down to finish level, only requiring a little smoothing or scraping to bring to finished form. Add a buttplate, sideplate, another pipe or two, carve, stain and finish and it would have been a very fine rifle.
Allen Martin says there is a schimmel inside any fine rifle – it has to start with good lines.
I picked out a trigger guard that matched, and sketched the few details of trigger, plate and shaping that I could think of. As soon as I got home, I stocked up a version of this rifle with swamped barrel, a Siler lock modified to look more like an old lock and the few mounts. It’s an interesting project to stock a plain rifle – there is nothing to focus on other than the shaping and few mounts involved. Stock was shaped with a #49 cabinet rasp and a coarse rasp with light hand on the trigger guard and barrel. As the stock would remain unfinished, I swabbed linseed oil over the butt to keep out moisture, on a knot to hold it in place, inside the ramrod hole and on the ramrod so they would not bind. Dirty hands over time have brought out the curl, and when this rifle is displayed, it provides for interesting conversation – usually “what is it?” or “when are you going to finish it?”
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I am a big fan of plain Jane rifles. I do enjoy rifles with immaculate relief carving and fancy inlays and have built a couple of them over the years. But the understated elegance of a plain rifle with clean lines has always appealed to me. My latest project is Kibler Colonial with a plain grain cherry stock.
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Bob, I like the “high line” that extends from the lock panel tails through the wrist. Would like to see the cheekpiece.
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That last rifle should be a real conversation starter, Bob! It's good to see some nice clear photos of it!
Curtis
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I followed the old rifle, including a fairly long cheekpiece. Not a great photo, hope you can see it, with an arc to upper rear corner of butt, and similar small arc forward of cheekpiece.
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That linseed oil have great color! Did that deepen over time or did it look that vivid right away?
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There are a few rifles at the Museum of Appalachia and the Lenore Museum in Norris Tn. When I first decided to build a rifle I looked at these rifles and was surprised at just how crude and plain they were. I later came to realize a working mans rifle and a prominent man's rifle were very different indeed.
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Bob I remember you sent me pictures of that rifle (think it was the same one with the 'rasp' finish) years ago, modeled after the Dixon gun. The oiled parts looked one heck of a lot lighter then, as did the wood!
I'm not really sure how much I buy into the idea of someone using such a rifle - any kind of quickly stocked piece, no matter how basic - with no finish on it for any extent of time. Just speculating but even the poorest individual would have had access to SOME kind of oil, tallow, grease etc. to provide the most basic weather protection. Not necessarily any stain, certainly, as that not really a necessity, but heck even tallow or simple wax would offer quite an improvement to simply bare wood.
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I’d stay away from tallow to keep the critters from gnawing on it. Next thing we will see is simulated rodent teeth marks! Really great color from the linseed oil.
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The second rifle pictured is a Brennan for sure. It's gorgeous, any more pictures of it?
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I'd really like to see more of the 2nd one also.
Give us some more ;D
Jeff
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The teaser pics were rifles by Eric K and Jud B as you noted. More of them later, if OK. Ron, I’ll get back to the “farmboy rifle” eventually, too. Nate, I agree that a plain rifle needs to be well done, as there is little distraction. Such a plain rifle is a great way to teach design and stocking to someone wishing to learn for the same reasons.
The linseed oil has darkened – probably X 3, partly from dirt picked up in use over 25 years. Eric – I agree that a rifle with no finish is strange – but there it was on the wall at Dixon’s. The stock was a soft, faded gray like bare barn wood – could have been some slight finish originally, but no sign after 200 plus years of use, including conversion to percussion. That’s what struck me, so I copied it as a conversation piece.
I started this post with the surprising original rifle, and discussed this example and other plain rifles with Jack Brooks. We have also seen several Lehigh styled rifles stocked by a fine maker as Mike mentioned, but not taken as far. These were finished rifles, not like the unfinished Dixon rifle, but the charm and simplicity were the same. We also wondered how long it took the old masters to stock a rifle, where could they work fast and where might they slow down? Henry Leman’s best stockers could assemble one or two trade rifles in a day! Made neatly with good lines, but specialization and repetition led to speed. Research in the Moravian records shows a variety of price points for rifles, and descriptions from a plain stock with no mounts to complete and carved pieces.
So in spring 1995 I talked Jack into stocking a plain ca 1780 Lancaster style smooth rifle, where we would document the work and keep track of his time. Day one began with a maple plank, custom lock and barrel, sand cast mounts and brass and iron sheet. First morning the stock was cut to a pattern, breechplug fitted and tang shaped, and the barrel with plug inlet with gouge, chisel and scraper in 4-5 hours. Stock was trimmed, flipped and ramrod groove established, the ramrod hole drilled, barrel lugs installed and barrel pinned in place. Lock panels were established and the lock inlet as a unit without disassembly, lock bolts drilled and tapped, trigger plate made and inlet and the tang bolt installed. End of day one had the lock, stock and barrel together but no trigger - 10 hours work with lunch.
Day two – trigger made, inlet and pinned, layout lines with castoff, buttplate filed up and installed. Trigger guard casting filed up and installed, a sideplate sketched, cut, inlet and lock bolts finished. Ramrod pipes were formed, filed and inlet – forward pipes while stock in square, and entry pipe later when stock was shaped. Sling swivels made and stock shaping began with chisels, plane and rasps from square to final shape. Day two ended with the rifle mostly assembled and stock shaped from lock back – another 10 hour day.
Day three – shaped the forend, made and installed a two piece nosecap and ramrod entry pipe, front and rear sights made and installed. Touchhole was drilled and tapered, and barrel signed with maker’s name and year. Homemade Aquafortis applied and heated, then linseed oil rubbed on. A tapered ramrod of hickory was made with a reversible worm and iron tip pinned at breech end, stained and oiled. About midday on the 3rd day, the rifle was ready for the customer. We spent a bit of time boning the linseed oil into the stock and reviewing the project – photos of the project are included in the American Tradition article. Barrel and lock were left white as usual and the brass mounts burnished. A ca 1780’s Lancaster rifle from a blank and castings in two and a half days.
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Not stocked in a day like the Leman trade rifles, but the work was done in a workmanlike manner, and may represent what the old masters did as a rule. When this rifle is displayed, most really like it and see it as a common “working man’s rifle”. Jack was asked to build more plain rifles, and I so enjoyed the project that I approached other builders at CLA shows to ask if they would do something similar – if not a 3 day rifle, then the simplest rifle they felt comfortable putting their name on. Jud Brennan was next up - more to come if interested. But please consider this approach and the time spent. How does this compare to how we work?
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Well that pretty much blows my mind. That’s a level of skill that is rare today. Guess it’s like playing a guitar. Those who do it every day striving for virtuosity can do stuff others can only gape at.
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I don't think I can work a ten hour day anymore...certainly not two or three in a row.
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So I'm curious about a couple of things Bob. 1st, was all this work done by one guy (Jack) or were you helping with aspects of it? I notice the word "we" here or there. Also, was the lock polishing included in the time? I'm assuming not, assuming he started with one of his locks already complete and ready to go. I can clearly see the level of barrel finish - it essentially looks fine-filed at most. How is the brass finished out?
Assuming a gun stocker was beginning any such project with a purchased lock, one would assume that the lock would exhibit a higher level of finish than the remainder of the components. Today of course, we have to deal with as-cast locks and bead blasting.
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20 years ago I could build a gun in 30 hours, but not anymore. I have 32 hours in The gun I just finished but I started with a blank with the barrel inlet and RR hole drilled. This has no buttplate either, but I can usually put one on in an hour or less. Never did ten hour days doing gun work, that would take the fun right out of it. ;) These days it's 3 to 5 hours before I can't hang onto the tools anymore and have to quit.
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This is interesting. I built a gun in three days once. Wasn't very accurate. But it made a dandy fence post..!!!! Oldtravler
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Jud Brennan was next up - more to come if interested. But please consider this approach and the time spent. How does this compare to how we work?
I would be very interested to learn more of what you have discovered and pics of any other rifles you know made in this fashion. I have always classified firearms in two categories. Mary Ann or Ginger. Ginger is the pretty one you dote over, but she is expensive and often demanding of your time and care. Mary Ann gets the job done, is reliable and loyal, and has her own beauty because the builder gave her fine lines.
I suspect that in 1770 heading over the mountains, men who wanted a rifle rather than a smooth bore carried (and could afford) a lot more Mary Anns than Gingers. It is my belief they are underrepresented in our historical view.
DAve
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This was an experiment to see what might have been standard practice in the old days, and we were all 23 years younger in 1995. Mike built a gun in 30 hours 20 years ago – that matches this project. How many new rifles did Christian Oerter with two apprentices complete in a year? Two a month, plus their repair work? More, or less? These men were all under 30 years of age.
Eric – all work was by Jack, other than a friend sooting a few items for inletting. No lock polishing – but that not done in the old days either, as you note. The barrel and mounts were fine filed, and the brass burnished. I hope some discussion will continue on “a workmanlike manner”, details of stocking that save time, tool selection for quick removal and so forth.
After this very interesting project with Jack, I asked several at CLA if they would try a 3 day rifle – or a simple and quick rifle. The reply was “Bob, this could be fun”, and a change of pace from their usual high end work. Jud Brennan was next up. I had developed a standard barrel and mounts for an early Lancaster rifle, which I sent to Jud with no direction other than have fun and relax – keep as simple as you can. Here is what arrived a while later. It’s not fair to “compare work” between builders, as no time limit was set on these other rifles - just plain and pretty. This was Jud’s “red finish phase”. Not typically seen on old rifles, but interesting and makes one think of fine musical instruments.
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Talk about the idea of 30 hour guns brings to mind the topic of lighting in the shop. Despite large windows in mine, there are a lot of days that require other light sources in order to accomplish any fine work. I know that repetition builds efficiency, but I think that we are far more fixated on "time" than our ancestors were regarding a given task. I also believe that the Guild system would have instilled a general attitude of quality over time spent . Their answer to building a gun in , let's say a week , would be to work more hours per day if necessary , however , given the issue of lighting, this was not always practical.
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I think this is fascinating and a simulation of semi production work. It seems likely similar approaches and pace were common practice for contract work, supplying muskets or rifles for the approaching Revolutionary War and in shops supplying contract rifles to the new government. Dickert, Dickert and Gill, Gumph, and Gonter come to mind among others.
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Jud’s rifle that Bob posted yesterday (Sept 19) brings my favorite Alaska hunting rifle to the forefront. Years ago, I gathered parts from the Log Cabin Shop to make myself a rifle. With my medical career putting me on call much of the time, the build didn’t happen. In April of 1988, Peter Marshall offered to fly me into a remote river to hunt moose with him, using flintlocks. I took the plain stock blank, 60 cal swamped barrel, butt plate, and side plate to our mutual friend Jud Brennan, who reluctantly agreed to stock the simple rifle for me in time for the hunt. He had a rifle in process with the perfect stock profile for me, so he used that architecture for my rifle. I just said I wanted a plain, pre-golden age rifle.
The result is quite similar to the gun Bob showed yesterday, but it has a simple two piece patch box, nose cap, and entry pipe. Jud wouldn’t sign it, I think because it wasn’t fancy enough. It got its first moose that fall thanks to Peter’s invitation and airplane. It has taken two more moose and two caribou since then. Years later, Jud agreed to sign it, maybe because Bob’s efforts made him think “plan and perdy riffles” didn’t need to be disrespected! Thanks, Bob, and Jud, and Peter, and the moose, too, of course.
Bill Paton
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Bart and Jeff – hope the pics of Jud’s quick rifle were of interest. Dave – more pics coming if still interested. Bob – I’ve noted in the Moravian trade records that as the day got longer in spring and summer, the formal work day was made longer, and later when men were paid, the pay went up a bit for the longer day. The gunshops had large windows over the stocking benches, and I don’t know if they worked beyond dark with a lantern? Maybe forge work or other components or projects that don’t require the good lighting, and stock work and decoration in good light? Bill – some here might enjoying seeing a few pics of your Brennan rifle?
I think I’ll slip in an Eric K piece here, as he was exploring plain guns before most others were thinking of this. Chime in Eric on your intent here, and finishes. The profile, bold facets in buttstock and bold curl grabbed my attention when I first saw it. I loaned this .69 Bucks County sort of smooth rifle to friends in the Northeast where it saw much use in reenacting circles, has been photographed and painted several times, and the guys loved it. Works well as a farmer’s gun from F&I through Revolution. Over time the wood dried out with less contrast, and folks would encourage me to add finish to bring out the bold curl, but I don’t believe in messing with another man’s work. Burnishing a stock is another way to pump up curl and contrast, and add a bit of shine to the surface, closing pores. This piece and the copy of the Dixon rifle have a diamond shaped wrist with rounded corners – as does rifle # 52 in Shumway Vol I. Not very common, but very interesting when encountered.
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That is a beautiful rifle. I find it interesting, but not surprising, that a lack of embellishment really draws your eye to the lines of the rifle. Without the bling, you can't hide poor form.
DAve
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Bob, You beat me to the punch. I started reading this thread this morning and was going to post pictures of the Kettenburg rifle when I returned from the range. I was pretty sure it would fit right in. I have added Eric's description of the gun below, hope you don't mind Eric. All I can say is that until you handle this rifle you cannot appreciate how bold and robust the architecture is. I have enjoyed having it in my collection.
David
Eric's description of this smooth rifle when made:
Early Bucks County 1760's-1770's styling. I consider this to be very representative of a true barn rifle/common rifle of the 18th century as it is certainly NOT over-finished. The flintlock, being a commercial product, is of course finished nicely; however the barrel has simply been brightened to reflect cleaned-up secondary usage. The brass triggerguard has been filed only as would be necessary to remove the coarse casting texture and the tang bolt is threaded into a simple nut - there is no triggerplate. A single rod pipe is evident as well as a single lock nail. No buttplate. The stock has been very quickly scraped to final form with heavy roughing scrapers and colored with nitrate of iron; the stock displays numerous scraper-marks as well as VERY prominent rippling. Raw linseed oil and beeswax constitutes the finish.
This piece is a bit used but displays no signs of abuse; this is a big, sturdy gun and is very architecturally pleasing. The maple figure is VERY prominent however the crude uncooked Linseed Oil will cause the stock to darken slightly over a period of time. This piece is as historically accurate as you can get! Stocked entirely by-hand in a traditional shop. I am a full-time custom gunmaker working within a 17th-18th century context. This is a very affordable price and the piece is quite collectable.
• Barrel: .69 caliber (14 gauge) smooth, octagonal fading to round 40"long. Front and rear sights.
• Lock: Chambers "Early Ketland" flintlock, casehardened.
• LOP: approx. 13 1/2"
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Boy that's a blast from the past. I'd have done a couple of things differently if I made it right now, but just little stuff.
I do think it's pretty accurate insofar as a real quickie, a simple utility gun. I think it's in many ways similar to Bob's "rasp rifle" he made, except I scraped that sucker heavily, stained it and put a very crude finish on it. The idea there was a 'parts gun' made up of spares, which it in fact was.
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Bob,
Thanks for the add'l pix.
I really like all the guns, but the Jack Brooks and especially that Brennan really turn my crank.
I have a feeling that there may be one very similar in my future. ;)
Thanks,
Jeff
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That E.K. rifle is absolutely the bee's knee's I.M.O.
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Hope you’re still enjoying this thread, and different examples of plain and pretty rifles by good stockers. Since we have Eric K with us, let’s show one more piece by him – then move on to Allen M and others? Eric brought this to an early CLA meeting – how many years ago? It seemed to catch folks by surprise, and went home with him, which I quickly took advantage of. Interesting that in these last few years, painted rifles are very popular.
Looking back to the unfinished copy of the Dixon rifle, this is an example of what a creative owner might have done with such a rifle in the white. Some were painted red like trade guns, others finished in various ways. Hopefully Eric will share his thinking here. Note the diamond shaped wrist again, with a ridge extending into butt. All these rifles “fit” well, and thus shoot well. This little rifle won every match it entered, as well as being a conversation piece. A nice profile and simple lines, with an artistic finish.
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That rifle has shown up a few times ..I think it was shown on Eric's website at one time. I've admired it for years. I believe that the designs are a dye rather than an actual paint, but I'm not sure if that pertains to this one or another of his works. If I recall correctly, there is at least one more done in a similar fashion. Thank you for showing these. They really deserve to be seen and admired.
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I hope Eric and others will add a few thoughts re his painted rifle last evening. The rifle would have been a joy to carry and shoot – even without the applied art.
Allen Martin was next up, and happy to stock up a plain rifle – he often proclaims “inside every fine longrifle is a schimmel”. I think he means what Dave posted – that a plain piece “really draws your eye to the lines of the rifle.” Here’s a pic of Allen to prove he enjoys simple projects.
I asked for something long and slim, with a bit more drop to fit me – and as plain as he felt comfortable with. Allen delivered - pretty to look at and sweet to shoot, like the other rifles here. Note again the line from wrist to butt, with a wider than high wrist that approaches a diamond shape. The lock panels on these rifles are kept slim to fit the overall profile, and the Liberty head reminds us of this region and its stockers.
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A few years ago when I attended the NMLRA Gunmakers classin Bowling Green, KY. Iwas in Hershel House’s class and it was great fun. Hershel has all kinds of little techniques to cut down on build time. There was a lot of discussion and a few that had know Hershel for many years, told us that in the 70s, Hershel could make a rifle in around a weeks time. They did not elaborate on hours spent per day or how they were decorated. Maybe someone on the forum may know more about Hershel’s rifles back then and you certainly do not see them come up for sale very often.
elkhorne
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This is a capitol thread, keep the pictures coming!
DAve
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Elkhorne – some folks here should know how Herschel works, and how long it takes him to stock various rifle styles. In Foxfire V he built a poor boy rifle for the young authors in a week, while taking time to sketch, explain and photograph the steps. I reckon he could have built that nice rifle in 3 days without an audience – which might be where this idea came from, now that I think of it? Herschel asked $500 for a rifle like this in 1979!
Ken Netting made his living as a carpenter, learned to use hand tools accurately and efficiently, and stocks from the blank. Ken has developed a style of his own, likes a slim profile and in order to get that look, the wrist is often wider than high. I asked Ken for a 3 day rifle, or the simplest rifle he could build, sent him a short swamped Rayl barrel and this is what came back. Probably the simplest, and definitely the lightest rifle from this group. Weighs less than 5 pounds in wormy walnut, easy to shoot one handed as a pistol (Hawkeye or Jeremiah Johnson style with a rifle in each hand), or tuck in shoulder and sight with one hand, lantern in the other. Would make a fine coon hunting rifle. Simple hand forged guard, fancy nail in heel of butt, couple ramrod pipes and a nice warm finish.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fjkOGp/kn_full_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gGMxbp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cYMKp9/kn_from_butt_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1tAwp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fHw8hU/kn_lock_close_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m49ThU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kZ4uNU/kn_muzz_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cpNQU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i0Wxbp/kn_left_34_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f33ohU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dWDX99/kn_cheek_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fBX3Gp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mVOX99/kn_left_trigg_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iAmVwp)
Ken really enjoys stocking fowlers – long, slim, plain and pretty. Here’s Ms. Liberty in cherry from New England - she looks good on the wall, and feels real good in the hand.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dpL9NU/kn_fowl_full_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eVefU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/buN0U9/kn_fowl_rear_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iNusbp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/niHCbp/kn_fowl_lock_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJQb2U)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jSikwp/kn_fowl_wrist_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mb9Qwp)
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Per Bob Lienemann’s suggestion, here is the plain pre-golden age moose rifle that Jud Brennan reluctantly made for me in 1988, which I mentioned on this thread on Sept. 20, 2018. It is 60 cal, has a 42” swamped barrel, and weighs 8 lb 7 oz. It is a joy to carry and shoot.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nAeawp/IMG_6383.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mc32bp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bWpLe9/t_Mwh_Hg9f_SYi_ZJMXUT2_Rv_w_thumb_c04e.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m9WYz9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h1zWmp/RPCr_HCqf_T7_Cu8o_Bxsssyhw_thumb_c054.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gV8fe9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jEYP6p/TYFFFCk2_Q6_KDbkjc_Em_Z_yg_thumb_c05d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h3O2sU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/m8gNsU/esw_Nf_Yt_THqclg_Vo_TM0_FYA_thumb_c0c7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cjQ46p)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cE8wK9/1b30a_Pv1_Sz_WPi_AOR9o_ENp_A_thumb_c06a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/imvMmp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j1f46p/KGIdwn_R0_QZib_S95wn_K3q_Ow_thumb_c097.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bY8Dz9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mxBoXU/u_U_Bvhn2_R76hz_ERf_Iaxm_TQ_thumb_c0c5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nN3P6p)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j50FCU/6idmpe_N3_S5i_ZPQs_HXWo_FEw_thumb_c0a1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/epemK9)
(https://image.ibb.co/kcedj9/ab_VNf_p6_RA_Oz_NN0_Ul3m8g_thumb_c0d5.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/dQ7CsU/RWGAcq1_CSDq_O_v_OBs_CCGd_Q_thumb_c0c6.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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(https://preview.ibb.co/djn96p/38_Gi66_LXQ0_KLJa_ARK7_LWs_Q_thumb_a9b0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ikihRp)
It is a full sized rifle..
(https://preview.ibb.co/cDU8XU/Kvuo1_Tymvv_D0_QOSm_OUQ_thumb_a9b6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cMC6K9)
But it looks small on last January’s full-sized moose!
(https://image.ibb.co/ncXj6p/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_a9b9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5wBmp)
My Yup’ik Eskimo wife and me accepting and respecting the gift.
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Bill, that is a remarkable rifle - great lines, great (though minimal) carving. Very pleasing to my eyes.
And your huge moose is certainly proof that it is a good shooter! Can you mail me a hind quarter? Packed in ice though!
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Something in the genera of Ken Nettling's gun.
Talking plain and simple, I thought I would post up some pics of I rifle I built back in the 80's for a really good friend and fellow AMM (American Mountain Men) member.
His desires were for an iron mounted simple (plain) gun in .62 caliber with a 38" straight barrel turned 1:66 (Getz) for decent powder charges, long tang (think Bean type), dbl set triggers on a long plate, no butt plate as was the case in some original "poor boy" type rifles.
Let me explain that this was built during a time when interest had begun to swirl as far as gun style. There were still a lot of traditional PA type long rifles being ordered as there were Hawken guns, but the Tennessee and other southern rifles were being discovered and interest in the "over the mountain" and pre revolutionary guns was gaining popularity.
The pictures I am using were supplied by the owner of the gun..... same guy I built it for all those years and God only knows how many shots ago. These pics are current condition of gun.
Sooooooooo........ Here goes:
Lock: remember this lock was installed 40 some years ago.
(https://i.imgur.com/qnvuC2i.jpg)
Lock mortise area. Yea, it shows wear....
(https://i.imgur.com/WWC8f1I.jpg)
Lock side with trigger guard...
(https://i.imgur.com/0ziVpsN.jpg)
Top of breech area. That inlay is the only "fancy" thing on the gun. I just had to do it..... LOL
(https://i.imgur.com/MerRI6v.jpg)
Forward entry pipe. See below for explanation of what you are seeing.
(https://i.imgur.com/wmNVcND.jpg)
On side butt stock.
(https://i.imgur.com/og8WPby.jpg)
Off side butt etc.
(https://i.imgur.com/0ziVpsN.jpg)
I do not have a good full length pic of this gun. Wish I did. It is light in the hand and shoots quite well. Some might call this a Franken gun because of a couple of things I did to it. I used that long Bean tang like a Hawken tang and double bolted through the stock to the trigger plate for extra strength like a Hawken. To give it additional extra strength I formed the top through the wrist a bit more full then traditional for this type of rifle. This gun was going to see a lot of horseback time. The forward entry pipe was copied from an original gun from TN. That entry area is, as you know, prone to chipping and this solves that problem. As I said, there is no butt plate but there is a toe plate that I formed to curl over the toe of the rifle. Since it was a .62 I wanted a stout ram rod and made a tapered on out of dipped and straightened 7/16 hickory. It gently tappers down to 3/8 at the forward entry pipe. It and a good short starter will load a tight patched ball (I made him 3 ram rods, if I remember right).
So, thats my very simple gun...... It has seen 40+ years of service with a bit less then excellent care but that is what it is. It has accounted for a bunch of deer, a ton of paper and steel, and at least one elk that I know of. These pics were furnished by the owner. He is still proud of this rifle as am I to see it has survived this long.
Thanks fo looking. I really like these "plain" rifles.......
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I appreciate this thread very much. I've always been drawn to plainer rifles versus those with a lot of bling. Maybe because I'm a hunter at heart, I like a gun that looks business like and think they shine as much as fancier guns, in their own way.
Hope to see this thread last and grow.
Thanks, Skychief.
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Thanks Bill and Bruce for posting, and Skychief – with help we’ll keep it going. Here’s a simple mountain rifle in plain maple with fire blued barrel and iron mounts, as slim as possible. Not rubbing the mounts while in the charcoal results in these mixed colors. Used larger top jaw screw slid to rear to match old locks. Slim rifle feels good in the hand, and points real easy.
(https://preview.ibb.co/k2SGp9/sm_full_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/davQhU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fvMLGp/sm_lock_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gLEwp9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/f4rbp9/sm_barrel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dtfEbp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kq6WNU/sm_left_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFshU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/duDp99/sm_left_wrist_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iJHGp9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mdxubp/sm_tang_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n3pU99)
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Sweet lines; pleasing all around.
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blienemann:
That is one sweet gun. How about some specs, caliber, barrel, lock, triggers, etc. I am particularly interested in your trigger guard.
Thanks
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I could probably fill a half dozen pages with stuff like this but I'll just do this one. This gun gets mailed to Michigan today. The new owner is excited about taking it pheasant hunting. It has a 49" 20 bore barrel by Hoyt in a nice red maple stock. The lock is a Davis "Colonial". The trigger guard is cast locally and the original was from a French utility musket. I colored the stock with Kibler's tannic acid followed by ferric nitrate. No buttplate, no sideplate, no trigger plate and abbreviated entry pipe. I have 32 hours in the gun, probably qualifies as a 3 day gun if I were a young man. ;)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e73cCU/DSCF2218.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j8yAXU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eOFqXU/DSCF2219.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dEoAXU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dNfPsU/DSCF2220.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZZTK9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n5pHCU/DSCF2221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iUmKRp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bBaeRp/DSCF2222.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hae66p)
(https://preview.ibb.co/f3qqXU/DSCF2223.jpg) (https://ibb.co/haQPsU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gFNhe9/DSCF2224.jpg) (https://ibb.co/epkPsU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bw0eRp/DSCF2225.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iWETK9)
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Really like that 20-bore shotgun, Mike. Fit and finish look impeccable.
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Yep that smoothbore was born to hunt. I like it.
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Mr. Brooks, that is another fine looking long fowler from your bench, thanks. And it certainly qualifies as a 3 day rifle when we were younger.
For a plain piece to present well, the profile and the few details have to be right. This looks to me like a warm colonial version of an English fowler with great lines and long, light barrel, attempt at balustraded wrist but mellow, sunburst or fan carving at tang and guard, slight swell at entry pipe, ribbed pipes, slim lock panels and that lock looks great on this piece. Did you taper the lockplate a bit? Perfect fit on this fowler, should be fun to shoulder and shoot.
Since folks are enjoying this thread, I will post one more, then drop back and hope others will continue to post either 3 day rifles, or quick work that is plain and sweet. An original rifle by Ferree in the Edward Hand house museum near Lancaster inspired this piece. His profile is similar to Wm Antes, though they apparently never worked together, and this profile brings me back to that first schimmel at Dixon's that started me down this path.
(https://preview.ibb.co/bU8kZ9/fer_full_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c8hZSU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cXdkZ9/fer_34_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iwhCE9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ksHZSU/fer_left_34_email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mQt8nU)
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Mr. Brooks:
Is that a straight tapered barrel on the gun you posted ?
Thanks in advance
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Mike Brooks, your gun is absolutely beautiful. Everything about it just fits. It looks like it was transported from the 18th C through a time portal.
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No, not straight taper. It's a direct copy of an original "Type G" or Carolina barrel. 1" at the breech, 9" oct section that tapers, the round tapers some as well, but there is a pretty long straight section. The barrel wall at the muzzle is about 1/16" The whole gun weighs 6 1/4lbs.
If I had to do this over I would have reduced the size of the bolster on the lock, it made for a very broad gun through the lock area for a 1" breeched gun. It all came together well after I did a bunch of thinking over it to get the lines right. The real trick is putting a large lock like this with a very slim barrel . Lock placement is critical, lots of drawing and erasing on a paper pattern before I cut out the profile on the blank. Interestingly, the balance point is about a inch behind the rear pipe, kind of demonstrates how light this barrel is. The butt is 5" X 1 7/8" The wrist is about 1 3/8" high X about 1 1/2" wide. The tang screw screws into a square nut in front of the trigger.
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You’ve been holding out on us all these years, Bob! Super clean flowing lines on your guns. They look “fast”.
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I have really enjoyed this thread! I dug up these pics of a "salvage" gun , I built some time ago. 42 inch tapered round barrel , picked up at Friendship "sometime ", modified flint lock , simple hardware . I built it to use these parts , I had for a while. Just a fun build! Good functional gun . Nate
(https://preview.ibb.co/mut86p/120_0262.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jU0XXU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/k3e4e9/120_0264.jpg) (https://ibb.co/da7CXU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fQzvK9/120_0266.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h5HRRp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jgHhz9/120_0267.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dHCFK9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iy9Cz9/120_0272.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFKqmp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/b5eUe9/120_0274.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nPfD6p)
(https://preview.ibb.co/emK1sU/120_0275.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fwmgsU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i1636p/120_0278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ffU1sU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bOV2z9/120_0279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hfrWsU)
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Thanks Mike..... old eyes.
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Nice long gun, Nate – with plenty of art and interesting mounts. Hope you and others will continue to post examples. I remembered these pics of another plain piece by Jud B. It’s easy to like his work from plain to $60K. I may have seen this one at CLA – do we know who owns it? Or other examples by Jud and other builders? He likes to show a lot of barrel at the muzzle end, and here has filed the buttplate form and bands into the wood – pretty common on German rifles. This patchbox might hold a Snickers bar? What else is out there?
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkmjWp/jp_butt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eb7DP9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dCC2HU/jb_butt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkobcU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hxVYP9/jb_lock_close.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n694Wp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nFdL49/jb_tang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7oyrp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dFHDP9/jb_entry_pipe.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jeNf49)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dG3WBp/jb_muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fpe4Wp)
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That patchbox could hold chili for lunch!! 8)
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Ok, I'll do another one. This is one of my favorite styles for a magnum turkey blaster. Club butt fowling gun as was made around Connecticut in the 1770's and 80's I think this one has a 46" 11 bore Colerain barrel with a full jug. Davis colonial lock, another style of Dutch utility musket guard and a cherry stock. Simple gun, specifically made for hunting but historically correct made stripped down as this one is. Having a full set of mounts is correct as well.....but who needs all that extra work?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F002_zpsafd87f67.jpg&hash=a446080efde4d15981a53502488e16901adcddfb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F003_zpsd6bf51b7.jpg&hash=9a156b2b67945ce36a4aa9b2f6a453b367d312d5)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F004_zps9360d944.jpg&hash=bad1aaf1e1d6580eea8b5be21cf9bd39d4d1ca3c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F005_zpsf9072e3a.jpg&hash=abf1368cf56b5a5b49c6b9536a68bd3681f13100)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F006_zpsc43ac6f7.jpg&hash=f5c2985c4385140ce656af3c3b59264a44b9b5b7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F007_zps221592b1.jpg&hash=d1de557880dd872bdb8ff2cd4bbf16801b2475fc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2F325%2520club%2520butt%2F008_zpse54f4ece.jpg&hash=f97ed6e1544a8e1e196d1f5e20a65da89cf64492)
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Great looking fowler, Mike. Do you recall about how much drop you put in that stock when you made it? Thanks.
Mole Eyes
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Great looking fowler, Mike. Do you recall about how much drop you put in that stock when you made it? Thanks.
Mole Eyes
Made some time ago but probably something like 2 3/4" at the heal and about 2" at the comb. The more parallel to the bore you can make the top line of the buttstock the less you'll feel the recoil. That's why this style really lends it's self to these big bore turkey guns. This gun probably weighs 8lbs or so. The breech is 1 1/4". The butt is probably close to 2 1/4" X 5". The style of the buttstock leaves a lot of wood which helps add weight as well.
If I was going to have a turkey gun for myself, this is what I'd build. BTW, this easily qualifies for a 3 day gun too.
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Mike,
I do like the warm glow you got with the cherry. Very nice work!
I think I like all Jud's guns as well! :)
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Great example, Mike – plus the education you provide with the photos, buttstock design for recoil, etc. That is quite a taper in lock panels from front to rear – like English doubles, fowlers, rifles and on to the classic late Hawkens that some folks miss. That big lock looks good with three screws, and again fits the breech and wrist profile so well. A plain gun with proper mounts and architecture is a great learning tool. In three days! This is a way to celebrate our younger years.
I had forgotten Don Bruton, who builds plain and sweet rifles with detail and style of his own. Here’s one example, and I know there are more out there.
(https://preview.ibb.co/huB9xU/db_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cdqf49)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dZQ2HU/db_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jrmWBp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hhv2HU/db_top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/da0DP9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gn8049/db_bottom.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bQnGcU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gCpUxU/db_left_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/drCSj9)
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The 'backwards" taper on the lock panels is an optical illusion, don't know why the photos showed up that way.
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Here is an earlier gun of mine that fits the bill of on of Bob's 3 day guns. Once I completed swedging the buttplate, casting the triggerguard and filing out the ramrod pipes, assembly was close to the 3 day mark. This Pennsylvania style rifle is built around a 44" long .50 caliber Getz barrel and Jim Chambers early Germanic flintlock.
(https://preview.ibb.co/bQFfNU/Godby_Gun_002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jtmWU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kVr4hU/Godby_Gun_001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jxFVNU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jUfmwp/Godby_Gun_010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i4nANU)
(https://image.ibb.co/kL41U9/DSC8479.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
why did voldemort want to kill harry as a baby (https://movieplotholes.com/harry-potter-and-the-chamber-of-secrets)
(https://image.ibb.co/k10VNU/DSC8477.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Boy I really like pretty much everything I've seen in this thread. Particularly, Mike's club stock. When I first was getting into flintlocks @ age 14 or 15, for some reason I was really drawn to the early club stocks in George Neumann's old little 'blue book.' I wore the binding right off that book.
I know the concept here are rifle guns, as Bob began the thread, but it's really hard to my way of thinking to discuss plain or otherwise "utility" arms without bringing club stocks into the equation. I think they may very well be the epitome of utilitarian function, covering pretty much all the bases (except maybe when it comes to squirrels, in which case given the generally large bore, they tend to annihilate such small mouthfuls of sustenance...).
I think it was around 1992 or 1993 that I first began attending the F/I encampment up at Ticonderoga, and the first year I was there, I met a guy who had a few dug relics of a gun that were found somewhere in Massachusetts. I don't remember specifically where they were found, other than that they were found in MA. There was a lock, a brass guard and a bunch of screws. So of course, I rushed home to make a piece along the lines of what I thought it may have looked like. The lock was particularly interesting because it was just plain weird and I thought - and still do - that it may have been a very early American forged lock dating to the second half of the 17th century, which would make it quite spectacular indeed if in fact it was American made. I've not seen any European work exactly like it - it's kind of a cross between the earliest style of English doglock and later English doglocks, but with a French-ish (for the period I believe) vertically moving sear. The guard was cool too since it was just a simple loop of brass with short pointed finials, but the bow was swaged out in a spoon shape.
I think this piece dates to around 1994. I kept it and used it for a few years, took one deer and a couple of turkeys, then at some point before 2000 sold it at Fort Ti. I wish I knew where it was now, would love to see how it's aged. Don't remember what barrel I used other than that it was around .72 or .75.
(https://image.ibb.co/ixM7mp/Club_stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mn6JsU)
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Mike, David and Eric – all these examples are welcome – it’s a group thread, and any long gun that’s plain and pretty and built quickly, and maybe a 2 day pistol? The more styles or “schools” represented here, the better. I would love to have a 3 day version of the Edward Marshall rifle, if anyone is interested? I think I may have pics of another club butt from Jack Brooks somewhere. But here is Chuck Edwards, who occasionally builds a plain rifle like this example. Like others, he is capable of much more, but is happy doing this for the right customer.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mRgS2U/ce_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gH3wwp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jaAy99/ce_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dB5WU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d6gS2U/ce_lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n6prU9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cx15p9/ce_top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/haokp9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ggYJ99/ce_bottom.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n0dUGp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kpEQp9/ce_left_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cE0bwp)
Notice how some of these guns have the lock tilted up at front, so that nose of lock and front lock bolt hit the web of wood between barrel and channel. When I began, I was told the pan should be level and aligned with the barrel, but looking at originals and fine rifles by good builders, I learned. Original locks were supplied drilled, tapped, hardened and polished, and the large old lock bolts hit the center of the lockplate nose. Contemporary rifles with tiny front lock bolts off center stand out once you study the old guns. Of course some locks have the curl or drop and lowered pan that help with layout.
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Here is an earlier gun of mine that fits the bill of on of Bob's 3 day guns. Once I completed swedging the buttplate, casting the triggerguard and filing out the ramrod pipes, assembly was close to the 3 day mark. This Pennsylvania style rifle is built around a 44" long .50 caliber Getz barrel and Jim Chambers early Germanic flintlock.
(https://preview.ibb.co/bQFfNU/Godby_Gun_002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jtmWU9)
Boy I like this flinter. Simple yet elegant. Very nicely done!!
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Fun thread and thanks for getting it started Bob ..
I wished I had taken more pictures in the past of these plain rifles as I built a fair number of em ..
Here is a Early Lancaster , sorta has a John Newcomer influence .... 58 caliber , sugar maple stock ...
For a client who lives in Lancaster County ..
Enjoy ...
(https://preview.ibb.co/hQ4Re9/P1030370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gsUsK9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dXNwe9/P1030376.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fDfSmp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fWe9z9/P1030373.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ey4be9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/k67we9/P1030377.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mcznmp)
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I don't know if you could call this plan and perdy maybe plan and funky. It's a copy of a Composite Fowler in the Dewitt Museum in Williamsburg and one of my favorites.
(https://preview.ibb.co/b6ydbp/DSC04026.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fh1aNU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mush2U/DSC04028_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b7RWwp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dL1gwp/DSC04023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mnXX2U)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ensobp/DSC04021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fgsX2U)
(https://preview.ibb.co/khVD99/DSC04016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c7FPGp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/f7Nt99/DSC04024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hofPGp)
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There was a common rifle on the wall at Dixon's in the eighties that had a guard like this fowler in the Dewitt Museum.I loved it so much that I built a rifle with a guard that mounted like this. I'm not sure where it is now and don't have a picture. I sure have enjoyed the guns y'all have been posting. It always makes me happy when someone orders a plain gun. I have always enjoyed building them.
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Ken , is the forward part of the trigger guard bow mortised into the underside of the lower forearm ? Curious minds .
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Jim, That's exactly how it's done. The original looks exactly like this and I would assume done in the same manner as I did mine. I forged the trigger guard with a double taper, drilled an undersize hole, heated the guard and inserted into the hole for a perfect fit much like you would do a knife tang into a handle. Best to test how much heat to use etc. but pretty simple. The tang on the trigger goes into the space normally occupied by the front trigger guard lug. There is no other fastening needed in the front. Two screws hold the rear rail and trigger guard in place, very cool.
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KKen,
Very nice and plain lines.
Plain means we notice the lines more, and That Is what Counts!
Your T-guard,
I am not sure if you are aware how old this design is, but here is one that may be the first!;
(https://preview.ibb.co/cz041p/Arkebusen_Juni_2008_6_kl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gqUxMp)
The above was made in Northern Italy about 1525.
Very best,
Richard.
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Thanks Ken , I'll add that bit of info into my arsenal .
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Thanks Allen for showing us the early Lancaster lines, and Ken for a very interesting piece with so many details – the lock and mounts, and the punch marks on ramrod pipe? And all for your comments and questions we learn from. Here’s a simple piece from Mark Silver, who has experimented with old ways of stocking and finishing.
(https://preview.ibb.co/m5TS49/ms_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d75krp)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hhMQrp/ms_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/feu0P9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d8r3cU/ms_forend.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iXvUHU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hWy5rp/ms_left_butt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ndtuj9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iRWQrp/ms_muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bN8S49)
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Here is a 40 cal Don Bruton built for me in the white. I did the finish on the metal and the wood. B weight 38 inch Rice barrel with a Chambers round faced english lock Don forged the mounts. I wanted a dark finish so I added lots of lamp black to the bees wax finish an applied many coats with a heat gun till the stock would soak up no more. Don put his nailed on buttplate with horse shoe nails. This rifle has no nosecap, entry thimble or sideplate. Just a meat an taters rifle
(https://preview.ibb.co/mGzTAx/007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/de1x3H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ckv73H/004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m0TS3H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gawVOH/006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h7X4iH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gnbaqx/008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eE01Vx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/escRxc/009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fPDzHc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eobEiH/003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fCUpHc)
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These guns are more interesting to look at than the high end guns many of us post here. So far I haven't seen one I didn't like.....in fact I'd like to own all of them!
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Good thread, a lot of really nice guns being shown here. Doesn't have to be fancy to be a great piece. Bob I'm glad you noticed the punch design on the forward thimble. This was a detail on the original and it was only on this one thimble. The others were plain and there was no entry thimble at all. That's one of the fun parts of studying the originals. Looking at all the little details and wondering how and why they are there. I'm guessing that at some point the muzzle thimbe needed replaced and they simply reused or recycled a brass object to fabricate the pipe, I would guess it's a section of an old tobacco box.
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Here is one that is pretty plain , but no way a three day rifle . It took that long to hammer out the trigger guard , butt plate , thimbles and tenons . The rifle has a 42" 40 caliber Rice barrel and a Chambers lock . No entry pipe , side plate , or nose cap .
(https://preview.ibb.co/ngFvbz/001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hBBCOe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e3O93e/002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cWobie)
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(https://preview.ibb.co/hzrwie/003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ik9hOe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eGC8wz/005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDs8wz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eKkNOe/007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dmAp3e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kEhBie/008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ddSNpK)
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Fun thread and thanks for getting it started Bob ..
I wished I had taken more pictures in the past of these plain rifles as I built a fair number of em ..
Here is a Early Lancaster , sorta has a John Newcomer influence .... 58 caliber , sugar maple stock ...
For a client who lives in Lancaster County ..
Enjoy ...
(https://preview.ibb.co/hQ4Re9/P1030370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gsUsK9)
That is about the most beautiful rifle I have ever seen. I can absolutely see that rifle over the shoulder of a man wearing a buckskin shirt with the words "Live Free of Die" painted on the front.
DAve
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Jim Alford.....I like the double dovetail cut for the front sight!! Very nice!!
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Wattlebuster – that’s a fine looking rifle by you and Don B. Like Eric’s comment about the unfinished rifle from Dixon’s, a homegrown finish like you applied would be more common and better protection for a rifle purchased in the white. Like Mike, I’m enjoying all these posts with photos and questions or details. Ken, an old tobacco box! I’ve been reading Foxfire V again, and Herschel used a cultivator shield for his ramrod pipes. On the farm we had a “wood pile” and an “iron pile” – items we always found a use for later. Perhaps we should look around the shop or the piles outside to make our rifles more historic? Jim – that’s a sweet looking rifle, and after the mounts were made, maybe close to 3 days. Jack started with sand castings and a finished lock – a good head start beyond forging mounts.
Here’s a plain but fully mounted rifle from Joe Schell – maybe he will chime in or post more?
(https://preview.ibb.co/ct9GYe/js_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9WkRz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jEp5Rz/js_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c2iAte)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jb0ZKK/js_lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpnEKK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cBziDe/js_top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kdVZKK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/f9DAte/js_bottom.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hhpiDe)
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Bob this rifle by Joe Schell based on number 194 in Ivey's NC book has been on ALR previously. It is a number one hunting rifle in .54 cal. 42" c weight barrel. About as clean lines as you could ask for in a rifle. Nail in the butt as it has no buttplate, entry thimble or nose cap. I asked for the sling swivels as there weren't any on the original.
(https://preview.ibb.co/idJPKK/20180929_172645.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cNxvRz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jDdfte/20180929_173238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eoYDDe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nQ93De/20180929_173026.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4X1zK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dUHC6z/20180929_172923.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hTU3De)
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I love that rifle Tim. In fact this is one of the best threads Ive seen in a while
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Super elegant rifle.
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Great topic!
Sometimes I hear people say that when building a simple gun, getting "the lines" right becomes even more important than when building a more decorated piece. I don't agree. I admit that in some extreme cases one can be temporarily distracted by shiny things, but the simple things have to work on a complicated gun too, and they have to harmonize with all the bling in every way imaginable. No amount of shiny can make a bad gun good.
Likewise, simple decorative elements on simple guns either blend and become an effective part of the whole or they become a memorable failure to be eternally treasured by all those who view them
(https://preview.ibb.co/cgECpK/comp2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fehMie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kHf7Oe/comp8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/btPqbz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dWoGGz/comp13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mMU1ie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fz0wGz/IMG_7984_4_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gXaVbz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dXjqbz/IMG_7987_1_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jo5JUK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dwcAbz/IMG_8000_1_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fbwgie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fi2bGz/IMG_0330.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hmU1ie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dbU1ie/IMG_0356.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k41spK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iA3NpK/IMG_4541adj_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dmzv9K)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cLW8UK/IMG_4554adj_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dEXtwz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ftkP3e/IMG_2826_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ebbmGz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jGe1ie/IMG_2824_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/co7Abz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iXCXpK/IMG_2791_7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hF3u3e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/djDu3e/IMG_2815_4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gCYu3e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/juy59K/Ian_s_rifle_008_retouch.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bRRE3e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mgDGGz/Ian_s_rifle_010_retouched.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nEpqbz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cqMQ9K/Ian_s_rifle_029_retouch.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJtGGz)
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I really like the finish on this, golden yellow base with the dark red over it. Is that a modern stain? Is that maple? Almost looks like cherry.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkmjWp/jp_butt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eb7DP9)
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This is an absolutely wonderful thread. So many approaches to simplicity and grace.....
Keep em coming.
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Here's my version of the "Plain Southern Rifle" , # 5 on Roy McKnight's video from the 90's.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ns7p4K/IMG_2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKWGjK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cdqLBz/IMG_2032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fUKDWz)
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Thanks sqrldog and ericxvi for showing us contemporary versions of great old rifles – I enjoy learning our history this way. Would be good to see more views of these two rifles? And thanks Ian for a collection of profiles, mounts, details and finishes. Just the variety of locks you’ve modified is a study in itself, or your metalwork. Mikecooper asked about the finish on a Jud Brennan rifle I posted. Some of our makers have spent 30, 40 or more years developing their craft, including finishes and faux aging. Some share that information, others do not. I think it’s OK for us to post photos of others’ work we admire, but it would not be appropriate to share their techniques if we know, or to speculate if we don’t. That’s how I’ve come to view this, but welcome other opinions. But we now have several photos, and can have fun and learn a great deal by experimenting to achieve a similar look. Each stick of wood teaches us, too.
Here’s a doglock from Jack Brooks with a Sibley horn – I believe this was a Muzzle Blasts cover some years back. Creating a good version of these long guns requires much study before beginning work, and Ken, Eric and others - I sure appreciate what we learn from your efforts.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gG0hPK/jb_dog2_mb_sibley.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d36dye)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nrZyye/jb_dog2_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hUDDWz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bNwBJe/jb_dog2_lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7Rp4K)
(https://image.ibb.co/fbSU4K/jb_dog2_inlay.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h5bNPK/jb_dog2_left_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hCKLBz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/daKyye/jb_dog2_left_wrist.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dULhPK)
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Thanks for starting this thread, Bob. This is one of the best threads I've seen here!
Mark
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Bob as requested here's a few more pics of Joe Schell's version of Ivey's 194. I also own the Mark Silver version of the same rifle his of course is dolled up a little more.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dc02Rz/20180929_171536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kCFrKK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bum3Ye/20180929_171756.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bHvxte)
(https://preview.ibb.co/g4BWKK/20180929_171921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kRXGmz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/frr3Ye/20180929_172018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mX58zK)
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Meant to send full length right side. Joe forged the bottom swivel link. We talked about doing it like a blacksmith would have done it.
(https://preview.ibb.co/n41vDe/20180929_172803.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mJi8Ye)
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Very nice Sqrldog!! Simple and elegant lines!!
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sqrldog:
Do you have a top view of Joe's Ivy 194 rifle showing the tang area....
Would like to see how he did that.
Thanks
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Bob, This is such a good thread! thanks for starting it. I think it is a great thing that so many really great builders are showing these nice simple pieces . Great stuff!! MORE , MORE!!! Thanks Nate
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Here's a shot of the tang.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ivXJYe/20180930_173628.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jDhwKK)
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Here's an A. Martin Lehigh that finally inspired me to build a Lehigh. (only took 18 years to get around to it) If I recall it was/is his personal hunting gun, .58 rifled and straight barreled. Took the pictures at F-ship probably in '00 give or take a couple years, did a tracing of it and squirreled it away for many years to help me make my own pattern.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FAllan%2520Martins%2520Lehigh%2520rifle%2Fam1.jpg&hash=16ffa1a603ae80f68c802c3703e8b0f46572abfe)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FAllan%2520Martins%2520Lehigh%2520rifle%2Fam2.jpg&hash=5f51e2b7904c16295f34c9e3c91e872fb321ec3f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FAllan%2520Martins%2520Lehigh%2520rifle%2Fam3.jpg&hash=09968de6b5903a0ca6ecd58d7d9835091aa58d8f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FAllan%2520Martins%2520Lehigh%2520rifle%2Fam4.jpg&hash=7fe198b84b6dd81fa2dd002af283ba2ac2ed1116)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FAllan%2520Martins%2520Lehigh%2520rifle%2Fam5.jpg&hash=ae6eae65303606637af7b2dbd1d03d79ec7cdbf7)
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(https://preview.ibb.co/djMWKK/0930181737.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eHx5eK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dPBsRz/0607181939c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f4UOYe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h8iNRz/0607181940a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fSQrKK)
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This is my current rifle, a fairly plain 38 cal southern iron mounted gun
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This piece is an example of an early c. 1700-1720 English Commercial Hunting/Trade Gun. These guns followed the long barreled, large bore fowlers of Europe. Typical English trade components like the three screw lock, plain flat dragon side plate, flat iron nailed on butt plate and simple brass two screw trigger guard. Forward screw passing up from the bottom to secure the tang also. Simple brass nailed escutcheon.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hdds9K/DSC04475_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f52KpK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fAROGz/DSC04473_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hi2xbz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hRY3Gz/DSC04474_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iLZoie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dajoie/DSC04465_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k2GepK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mk0Tie/DSC04469_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7Eoie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d94zpK/DSC04463_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mjKoie)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nJX29K/DSC04468_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bsoLwz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hWiW3e/DSC04467_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nddLwz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mm17bz/DSC04466_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nKcfwz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gZTW3e/DSC04462_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fuA0wz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bSSDGz/DSC04470_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iXqB3e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iZ94Oe/DSC04471_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b7cDGz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cyPh9K/DSC04472_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bLptGz)
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sqrldog:
Thanks much.......
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More of the Plain Southern Rifle:
(https://preview.ibb.co/jMg0eK/IMG_2028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j5F46z)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fvARKK/IMG_2017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gL32te)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eoCvDe/IMG_2018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMnTYe)
Copper RR pipes and one piece forged trigger guard.
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Thanks gentlemen for the extra pics of several nice rifles. Ken – that is quite an early English piece, stout but with many details that wound up on the NW guns or fusils. Made strong to last in the field, like later trade rifles or military arms. Thanks to Mike and Joe and all. I’ll post one more from Jack Brooks – when he was developing his early English trade guns I wrote an article about the original and his copies for Muzzle Blasts. We found an entry that one of the Girty brothers brought a busted up trade gun to a frontier smith and had it restocked as a rifle. So Jack took the English trade gun stock pattern, lock and hardware and combined it with a long, light rifled barrel, for this slim piece that is light and points quickly. I have another long, big bored rifle based upon this same story.
(https://preview.ibb.co/k823Je/jb_rifle_in_fowl_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNXQWz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i5Mxde/jb_fowl_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fOKiJe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eb3XBz/jb_fowl_top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9e5Wz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dip5Wz/jb_fowl_left_34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bReTjK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mxQ14K/jb_fowl_muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nFaerz)
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That looks a dandy hunting rifle, Blineman! Really 'handleable'.
I think I like all the guns on this thread!
I still think the eye is drawn quicker to "The Lines" on plain pieces, as there is no "ginger-bread" to distract us. Mind, I don't like inlays anyway, apart from functional ones.
Richard.
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Just looked at this thread today while stuck at McDonalds waiting for my truck to be worked on. Some really nice pieces posted. I don't think I could do a rifle in three days now and if I did it would take me two or three months to recoup. Hurts my shoulders too much. I do think many of the everyday rifles of the time were made very quickly and little to no decoration. I've got one in the works right now and haven't decided if it's getting a single or set triggers.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c80D3e/DSCN3286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b6GWpK)
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question to the crew,
Knowing end grain absorbs stain differently.. on Plain and Perdy guns without a buttplate, what if any extra treatment do you give it when staining?
I've seen some guns, that the end grain looks very dark in contrast.. and others they manage an 'almost' even stain? I'd assume you'd seal it and sand
it back before staining?
Thinking about working on a Poor Boy style gun with my son this winter?
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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I've got one in the works right now and haven't decided if it's getting a single or set triggers.
I just finished my Leman and I went with a single trigger. (Not a single set trigger) I place the pivot a little less that .250 away from the sear bar. The trigger pull is very nice. Smooth....and I'm going to guess 4.0-4.5lbs.
FWIW
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Metalshaper, l don’t do anything to make the end grain not stain darker and I don’t think someone years ago building a common man’s rifle would have gone to the trouble either. Remember they were building a simple functional gun no extra work.
Bob
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Bob,
Thanks for the reminder! Sometimes it just causes some over thinking :P just was curious though, since I've seen some contemporary guns as you described.. Made for function. then I've seen others where it appears they worked to even out the staining.. Just wondered what technique they used is all..
Looking around the web at wood working stuff.. the main idea is to seal it or sand it to limit the uptake of stain in end grains?
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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Nitric acid doesn't seem to get much darker on the end grain. However alcohol and water based stains seem to darken more on end grain in my experience.
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Here's my version of the "Plain Southern Rifle" , # 5 on Roy McKnight's video from the 90's.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ns7p4K/IMG_2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKWGjK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cdqLBz/IMG_2032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fUKDWz)
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I just saw this post and realized what your rifle represents. I recently acquired the original #5!
I'd love to see some more pics of your rifle. At some point I want to try and reproduce this rifle myself! Does anyone know where I might find a copy of the video "Southern Rifles Plain and Fancy" by Ray McKnight?
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Thanks Brian, galudwig and all for your posts and pics. Can we see more of the original rifle that ericxvi followed with his contemporary version? Or other original 3 day or plan n perdy riffles? Metalshaper – the unfinished rifle from Dixon’s that I began this post with is odd as Eric suggests – any owner of a rifle would probably apply some sort of finish for protection. I think Herschel House swabs axle grease on the butts of his rifle, under the buttplate and maybe on poor boys to resist moisture. You could paint a schimmel with milk paint or other old-time finishes, and the color would be the same on end grain. Could apply a sealer or finish without stain there to keep lighter. Experiment and post your results for us when done.
It is rewarding but much work to write and illustrate an article for American Tradition – writing an article is the equivalent of stocking a rifle. It costs a great deal to have arms photographed, then the magazine or book designed, printed and mailed. And you seldom hear feedback after the effort. Posting a topic online like this is easy, quick, free - and most important is interactive, so we can share, challenge, question and learn from each other. Thanks for all the participation. Maybe this approach can be used for other topics, and everyone contribute?
I’ve had several offline questions about the last rifle – a restocked trade gun as a rifle, and that Jack and friends had stocked an earlier version from this story. A Girty took a busted up trade gun to a frontier gunsmith and had it restocked as a rifle. If we assume the engraved lock and mounts were reused, this would have been a 3 day project with new barrel and Christian’s Spring guard. Charcoal blued barrel, and the soft red maple swelled closed with finish, so the bit of carving was cut very wide and bold to finish as seen. Aquafortis, then linseed oil was puddled on the stock and heated with a torch to bake it in, forming a hard shell or skin on the soft wood and to bring out the curl. Do this outside, as there will be plenty of smoke. This rifle will be my last photo post – hope I have not overdone it with examples. Thanks to all for making this very interesting. I’ll remain quiet and encourage others to add. Bob
(https://preview.ibb.co/iOQUEK/bb_full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nj2WTe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kxZd8e/bb_butt_view.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d1ud8e)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jhxbuK/bb_tang_view.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dRa71z)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h3FJ8e/bb_lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hopNZK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eVhLMz/bb_barrel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpPpEK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iNxWTe/bb_muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/buRfMz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gTmfMz/bb_carving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bBPBTe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bDxn1z/sideplate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gUJGuK)
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Hi galudwig,
Congratulations on your recent acquisition. I think Roy McKnight's video is available in DVD. Mine was VHS and crapped out long ago. There is a Muzzle Blasts article about this rifle in the Aug. 1996 issue.
More pictures are in a prvious [Oct 01].
Will you build a copy of that lock, since you have the original?
Eric
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Contact Ray McKnight for a copy of his CD/DVR. I think I have his telephone number and will email it if I can find it.
Dennis
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Here on Steve Bookouts website is ordering information for Ray McKnight's DVD.
Dennis
http://toadhallrifleshop.com/southern-rifles-dvd/
(https://image.ibb.co/esY23e/Copy_of_Southern_2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Here on Steve Bookouts website is ordering information for Ray McKnight's DVD.
Dennis
http://toadhallrifleshop.com/southern-rifles-dvd/
(https://image.ibb.co/esY23e/Copy_of_Southern_2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Thanks Dennis!
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Hi galudwig,
Congratulations on your recent acquisition. I think Roy McKnight's video is available in DVD. Mine was VHS and crapped out long ago. There is a Muzzle Blasts article about this rifle in the Aug. 1996 issue.
More pictures are in a prvious [Oct 01].
Will you build a copy of that lock, since you have the original?
Eric
I looked back through my pile of old Muzzle Blasts and I don't have the August, 96 issue. Back then I would save the articles that interested me and that apparently was not one of them. I may give the NMLRA a call and see if they have back issues still available. As for the lock, I'm not sure how to go about that one. I wish somebody made a suitable lock with a double-throated cock. Those seem common on SMR's. I know L&R makes one, but it isn't even close to the original. I'm looking forward to forging out a trigger guard though!
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When I get a chance, I'll post a few pics of that "Ray McKnight rifle #5." Until then, I thought I'd post a few pics of a "plain n perdy" Southern rifle made by Jack Rouse of Walton, KY.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kgTpZK/DSCF1217.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c6D1gz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jXqa8e/DSCF1232.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jGPeZK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/isuDuK/DSCF1224.jpg) (https://ibb.co/diGhoe)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eETv8e/DSCF1229.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nh0mEK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j8k8Te/DSCF1226.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kYdj1z)
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Check with David Rase he had a couple of really nice double throated Vicks. He used one of them on a Gillespie that he made awhile back. He may have access to more.
Dennis
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Check with David Rase he had a couple of really nice double throated Vicks. He used one of them on a Gillespie that he made awhile back. He may have access to more.
Dennis
Thanks again for the tip Dennis. I'll do that!
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Sweet looking rifle with many interesting details. We don't see many contemporary half stocks. Another poster asked recently if it was HC or appropriate to use fancy wood on a plain rifle. This is a good reply - fine lines and let the wood show. Thanks.
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This is a rifle I made in 1982. It is plain not sure about the purdy part. It is a half stock Tn .40 that I used to shoot in competition. Been a lot of miles and had thousands of rounds through it. The aging is all natural from sweat and shooting . Handforged buttplare (my first). North Star triggers (are they made anymore). Tim Cosby.
(https://preview.ibb.co/m33uJe/20181006_121423.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cBdTde)
the listeners poem analysis (https://poetandpoem.com/interpretation-of-the-listeners-by-walter-de-la-mare)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cf6aPK/20181006_121502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ia2tBz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kqOBye/20181006_121346.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cOrLrz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iB5KjK/20181006_121306.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k7qkPK)
anger poems by famous poets (https://poetandpoem.com/anger)
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A few things about the Jack Rouse rifle... An old friend who taught me many of the basics and who is no longer with us.
I know of a couple half stocks that he made - they are basically his standard rifle from the entry pipe back except for the barrel wedge. At least one was made on request and another the result of a broken fore stock.
His locks were a hybrid of Dixie Ketland plate, frizzen and frizzen spring with the balance Siler parts. His butt plate was made from two pieces of electrical conduit bent, sawn and brazed together. Trigger guards were two pieces cold forged and brazed.
He started building these before there was much interest in being HC. He developed his own style and stuck with it. His rifles set numereous off-hand records at Friendship in the hands of several different shooters including himself. I know at least one of those records still stands, because it's a 50-5x by Lois Spenlau.
Good memories,
Thanks for posting it.
Jeff
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sqrldog:
That is a sweet rifle. I really like the lines.
galudwig:
I really like the fore end work on the Rouse rifle.
Half stocks are neat guns..... course I like Hawkin guns also.....
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A few things about the Jack Rouse rifle... An old friend who taught me many of the basics and who is no longer with us.
I know of a couple half stocks that he made - they are basically his standard rifle from the entry pipe back except for the barrel wedge. At least one was made on request and another the result of a broken fore stock.
His locks were a hybrid of Dixie Ketland plate, frizzen and frizzen spring with the balance Siler parts. His butt plate was made from two pieces of electrical conduit bent, sawn and brazed together. Trigger guards were two pieces cold forged and brazed.
He started building these before there was much interest in being HC. He developed his own style and stuck with it. His rifles set numereous off-hand records at Friendship in the hands of several different shooters including himself. I know at least one of those records still stands, because it's a 50-5x by Lois Spenlau.
Good memories,
Thanks for posting it.
Jeff
I was fortunate to be able to meet and talk with Jack several years before he died. I bought this rifle at an auction not far from me back in 2006. I didn't know who Jack was until one of the older shooters in my club told me about him. I took the rifle to Friendship and looked him up. I spent several pleasant hours talking to Jack. He took the rifle apart and told me all about how he built his guns. He told me many of the things you mentioned. One thing I'll always remember Jack saying is that a guy once asked him to build him a "Hershel House" rifle. Jack told him "I won't build you a Hershel House rifle, but I will build you a Jack Rouse Rifle!" Yes, his style was his own and his rifle is still one of my prized possessions. I've seen many of his guns at Friendship and other places since then and they are easily recognizable; plain and perdy!
It was interesting that he also said that his style was partly influenced by a Beck (style) rifle that was awarded (annually) to the winner of the Buchele Match at Friendship. He said that the rifle disappeared in the early 80's. Well, it reappeared back in the NMLRA vault years later and was on display at the education building at the Fall, 2016 shoot. Jack said that rifle held really nice, but shot terribly (you wouldn't know it by the scores though...)!
(https://preview.ibb.co/iRpX69/IMG_0114.jpg) (https://ibb.co/byJgzU)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nR6C69/IMG_0113.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kj4zm9)
(https://preview.ibb.co/i1zrip/IMG_0122.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e2n0b9)
Sorry if I strayed too far off topic with this. I just wanted to give some recognition to a lesser known builder of really fine rifles!
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I enjoyed this thread immenslely , so I thought I would try to resurrect it by posting some photos of a recent project to come out of my shop . The rifle is SOMEWHAT of a copy of a original owned by a friend and fellow member of the WASHINGTON HISTORICAL GUNMAKERS GUILD . No matter what else it might be called , it certainly is plain .
(https://i.ibb.co/W5VMwPD/099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B3nQxr4)
(https://i.ibb.co/cTvpfhH/100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3hs86mq)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yj9YxXC/101.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nk2ZFBG)
(https://i.ibb.co/09wycKB/103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YdrB3XD)
(https://i.ibb.co/tphP6KL/105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tzNDCk)
(https://i.ibb.co/f1qBkcJ/106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j6bBypt)
(https://i.ibb.co/LJbdV70/107.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZhF3zg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5rqsFp6/108.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2CVw4X)
(https://i.ibb.co/kHMRbKH/109.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QbX2S9b)
(https://i.ibb.co/WyGLMWq/110.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2tWTC7m)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZNWmgHr/111.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yVWSkhC)
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Some might call it plain but to me it has some very nice lines and at first glance looks to be nicely put together.
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Its plain. Plain purty she is ;D
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I like it! 8)
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That is a mighty fine rifle...!!!! Don't need no fancy smancy it's a huntin gun...! I like it..!!!! Oldtravler
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I agree that Jim's rifle sure is sweet, and there is much to study and enjoy - the lines, shape of butt and cheekpiece, the angled photos let us see the architecture on display, and the sculpting involved here. To know that this effort is based upon an original is interesting.
On a related note, Brian Barker has posted a nice rifle in progress - with the title of "plain rifle". I'll borrow several of his photos.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZTgTZjs/bbpr-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C090rcd)
(https://i.ibb.co/kGqxkQK/bbpr-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JcrK05n)
I don't know how far Brian will take this rifle, but I can't help admiring the careful and informed shaping at this point.
What do you think leads to these plain rifles? Is it some customers who have a limited budget and thus ask for a plain, less costly rifle? Maybe that is where it starts for some? I began stocking in the Rocky Mtn fur trade interest, stocked plain full and half stock rifles at the lowest cost possible using Sharon kits or other "starts" where possible - in the southern mtn to Hawken styles for friends and customers who paid me enough for parts for the next one plus a little extra. Allowed me to improve my skills, and learn to work faster in some areas. $450 in the white in those days, $550 - $600 finished!
(https://i.ibb.co/v1tyKsb/fullstocks-email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BL1WS4m)
(https://i.ibb.co/LSRyL5C/halfstock-email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9ng0Ftq)
Went on to build fancier rifles as I learned more about the old guns, and some folks wanted fancy. They also wanted to see what i could build, carve and engrave where appropriate. Then when I would display work, it was easy to show what goes into a rifle - plain or pretty, and the importance of feel and balance. It seemed that folks new to the interest liked the showy work, and it was the more educated customer who had studied old guns and handled contemporary rifles that came to like the plain versions. I remember sending some rifles out in the white or plainly finished, saying that the customer could bring it back for a patchbox and more decoration someday, if they wished.
What are your thoughts? And thanks for all these great examples! Bob
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I'd thought I'd just set this here as this is one of my favorite threads and it hasn't been posted to in a while. Al Martin .54 Peter Angstadt-y Kutztown-ish Schimmel. This is one he finished up for the Fall Frolic and I was very happy to add it to my small but growing AM herd.
(https://i.ibb.co/RHsWFWR/IMG-0565.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/SRMFhjQ/IMG-0567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gzfk52v)
(https://i.ibb.co/X84DYhw/IMG-0568.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/9cLVc5H/IMG-0569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xX0fXTq)
(https://i.ibb.co/m0kbQwf/IMG-0566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxRJXZf)
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I'd thought I'd just set this here as this is one of my favorite threads and it hasn't been posted to in a while. Al Martin .54 Peter Angstadt-y Kutztown-ish Schimmel. This is one he finished up for the Fall Frolic and I was very happy to add it to my small but growing AM herd.
(https://i.ibb.co/RHsWFWR/IMG-0565.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/SRMFhjQ/IMG-0567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gzfk52v)
(https://i.ibb.co/X84DYhw/IMG-0568.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/9cLVc5H/IMG-0569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xX0fXTq)
(https://i.ibb.co/m0kbQwf/IMG-0566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxRJXZf)
That is an awesome rifle! This is also one of my favorite threads. Glad you kept it going with this fine addition.
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I once built an underhammer pistol, lock & stock, breech, etc, and used a piece of rifle barrel - in 24 hours. That was in 1979 & I haven't built any ML's since.
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I once made a rifle in three weeks. I was unemployed at the time, and had nothing else to do. I didn't knock myself out doing it either. It's the gun I call the "fire gun" (don't ask) and it is not together anymore.
I don't know how long it took me to make this one, but not terribly long. I had just gotten to see and handle a Boyer barn gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/277bmkr/IM000090-JPG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FbbPND1)
(https://i.ibb.co/0qKFyd9/IM000086-JPG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2qSs3fM)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q86TQs5/IM000089-JPG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q0RcjbZ)
(I knocked the top of the comb down some after these photos were taken)
This one took me about 12 years
(https://i.ibb.co/X807TzD/DSCN0251-1280x720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zm4BChS)
(https://i.ibb.co/8c5cZvy/DSCN0196-800x450.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRMRX0C)
(https://i.ibb.co/M78hR8g/DSCN0236-1280x720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fH8SC8X)
(https://i.ibb.co/PtSTkZV/DSCN0237-1280x720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JChxZRS)
(https://i.ibb.co/xmqZ44n/DSCN0242-800x450.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HNTZJJc)
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Nice pick Bob!
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Ok, my turn.
(https://i.ibb.co/2Zys22x/D82-AF386-A698-48-F1-AF87-B7-FF6-EB95-DF7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PDN9ppK)
(https://i.ibb.co/B6J2xm1/5-B55-AB87-E5-B3-4-FCA-951-F-D6-CECBC5-C030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PWyGnRS)
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Nice Dane. Love it.
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I just happened to find this thread today and have spent the last two hours reading and drooling over the pictures. Please keep the pictures coming
Tony
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Smallpatch...one time looking firearm...another of my favorites... Oldtravler
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(https://i.ibb.co/Bzxps0S/0124211028-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dWqTK8z)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y08JJHB/0124211028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJGqqnk)
(https://i.ibb.co/tHG8wgr/0124211028a-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4FqPwzr)
(https://i.ibb.co/bNqbTBD/0124211029.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L9bNmtH)
(https://i.ibb.co/KFvTMN0/0124211029-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qkQTt0y)
(https://i.ibb.co/W0g3F32/0124211029a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XDS4p4C)
Just thought I would keep this thread at the top with a plain little Lehigh that I got late in the summer. I didn't have anything smaller than a .58, so I figured this little .40 would fit the bill for club shoots and hunting turkey. It sure is fun to shoot.
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Couple of plain rifles I built.
(https://i.ibb.co/WKnyDsR/54731352-2276044089305767-4549646384067772416-o-Copy-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MNnV89J)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0TMXhX/58766067-2298231777086998-3342303855659450368-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BnKxGBG)
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Today was my turn to pick up a beautiful schimmel from Allen Martin, a .40 caliber with a 48" barrel and a Siler lock. The rifle is even prettier in person. I had a great time chatting with Allen about flintlocks and admiring his shop. Next will be the fun of working up a squirrel load.
(https://i.ibb.co/LvZLTqV/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/25kDzLG)
(https://i.ibb.co/8rs9BZN/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5r4L9HG)
(https://i.ibb.co/09cv9dD/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s12z1Mm)
(https://i.ibb.co/dGkqSs5/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZWcP3RM)
(https://i.ibb.co/RCzTTMN/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCnddqr)
(https://i.ibb.co/sqkn5N0/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fHBf8yh)
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Viktor,
Al, does like to talk. Not a nicer person on the planet. Build’s a pretty nice gun too!