AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on September 27, 2018, 01:54:56 AM
-
Much of what I read now but don't see much of is people plugging their vent holes with vent picks, quills, or toothpicks while reloading. Not sure what this accomplishes? After the shot I blow down the barrel to moisten the fouling and prove the vent is not obstructed. At some shoots I use a blow tube when required. Then it is powder, patch and ball. Very seldom if ever do I have a hang fire and can't remember the last flash in the pan but no discharge. Can't ever recall any of the dozens of books I have read of the long hunters or settlers ever doing it. So what gives?
-
You allude to the answer in your own post; "quilling" and plugging the vent was to prevent it from becoming obstructed by powder. Some older books/articles instruct the shooter to plug the vent during the loading process to prevent the charge powder from filling the vent, but as you point out, it's really not necessary. IMO, there are a lot, a LOT, mo bedda locks and builds around these days than in the '70's -- when I first became enamored with smoke poles. On some finicky flintlocks, I've had success using this method. I also don't have the need to wipe between each shot but on occasion, say after 10, 15, 20 shots, I get the urge to send a wet patch down the bore, I will quill the vent. I find this prevents the gook from clogging the vent.
I also quill the vent as an extra safety procedure as a reminder to myself and to others that my rifle gunne is loaded but not primed.
Others mileage may vary.
Best regards
-
It is my thought that the early flint locks did not have touch hole liners, just a hole bored into the breech end of the barrel at the pan. Over time with shooting, the flash hole enlarged due to the softer steel used in fire arms of the era. Putting a quill or pick into the touch hole prior to loading helped to keep the powder from blowing out the flash hole when the ball was seated. This is just my reasoning for this old method. as stated in an earlier post, it is generally not needed with today's firearms.
-
I started picking after a shot to replace the habit of blowing down the barrel which is banned some shoots. I have read this enlarges the touchhole, but it hasn't happened. I also always plug the touchhole when leaving the gun loaded, but un primed when hunting to keep moisture from entering.
Turtle
-
I have used a toothpick to seal the vent while leaving a flintlock loaded during hunting season. Between that and leaving the frizzen forward with the cock all the way closed, I feel it's safe enough to bring home for a few days, but only when I knew I would be going out to the woods again soon.
I have also used a toothpick while loading, especially on hot, humid days when things get a bit gummy at the breech. It does help prevent misfires, IMHO.
-
I never use a vent pick unless I get a FITP.
-
Same here Hanshi and that only happens when shooting many shots on a trail walk where a flash in the pan or misfire is meaningless. Well, not entirely meaningless as the failure to manifest the charge will definitely show if you are flinching.
-
Very true, Daryl!
On trail -walks, we often had the group more intently watching for flinches than watching the targets!
I don't use a pick either unless summat doesn't go off..
-
Same here, only if I have to. Mark
-
I pick right before priming. I was taught that the pick punches a channel into the compressed powder charge, thereby allowing flash into the center of the charge. I am not sure if this is a speed or a reliability benefit.
I think this is one of those things that Pletch could experiment with. We never actually KNEW that NULL B or 4f was faster in the pan than 3f, but his experiments showed us. Possibly the same thing could apply here.
A minor side benefit of picking is that you are sure that the flash hole is clear. Sometimes here in the south we do get gooey mess in the pan and barrel due to the weather.
I pick with a brass or copper wire/rod. I have a lovely blacksmith-made iron pick that is a wicked looking piece of art. I never use it as it would be guaranteed to wallow out the flash hole.
There are experienced folks here that I respect and appreciate who do not pick. No arguments from me. Y'all can tell me I have a hole in my head. I try to do things methodically (the engineer training in me), and change my procedure when something is proven to work better. Thus far, my rifle shoots just fine and reliably with the system taught to me.
Best wishes and God Bless, Marc
-
Is there any thing negative about picking the vent other than possible early and faster vent hole erosion?
-
Just time and energy. If you make the pick slightly smaller than the touchhole, and make it out of copper or brass, it is hard to imagine much wear.
-
Smylee,
I don't know of anything negative about picking the touchhole, as copper wire won't hurt anything.
In my mind though, I have a concern. unproved and untried!;
If we use a quill as some recommended years ago, leaving it in whilst we load, there is a big hole (so to speak) inside the touchhole, with nothing to ignite.
To me this sounds a poor idea, as does poking a hole in the charge, and for the same reason.
Again, never tried the difference, but in my Mind, it says negative idea! :-)
-
Seems to me the testing shows faster ignition with powder in and banked against the vent hole. I like that,
as that is the normal condition of my flint guns. After loading I look at the vent and there is a gain of powder in
the vent hole.
-
I pick right before priming. I was taught that the pick punches a channel into the compressed powder charge, thereby allowing flash into the center of the charge. I am not sure if this is a speed or a reliability benefit.
I think this is one of those things that Pletch could experiment with. We never actually KNEW that NULL B or 4f was faster in the pan than 3f, but his experiments showed us. Possibly the same thing could apply here.
snipped. . . . .
Best wishes and God Bless, Marc
It may be possible to run such a test, but it would not be easy. The issue here is the size of variables that can't be eliminated. Sometimes a first run test may show you a variable that you hadn't counted on. If such a variable does not show itself I might luck out.
I suspect that a plan might sound like this:
Load the barrel stub that same for each trial.
Prime the pan the same way - prime against the barrel is measurably faster.
Clean the barrel, vent, and pan the same way.
The tested variable would be to run 20 trials using a vent pick vs 20 trials without picking. In essence, this tests vent pick against the method Daryl mentioned in his last post. My untested gut says the later is faster.
The problem area, in my mind, is to be sure the barrel and vent are as clean as possible every time. IN previous tests I wiped the barrel with a patch, changed to a different rod to try reaching into the vent cavity, and following that with a compressed air blast into the vent. If the cleaning between shots is adequate, this may work.
Regards,
Pletch
-
I pick after shot....then load up...put on 1/2 cock...pick again, prime pan ...and shoot.
-
I pick after shot....then load up...put on 1/2 cock...pick again, prime pan ...and shoot.
As with many things in this great hobby, Nessmuck, Does this make it right or wrong? :-)
Not trying to be facetious, but some do, and some don't and it all works and everyone is happy with what they do or don't.
It is interesting, and I've learned a few things in this thread, like powder piled against barrel is (reputedly )faster, when I had read time and again that prime away from touchhole was the best. Still all flintlocks are slow compared to a matchlock.........................LOL!!!!!
Very best,
Richard.
-
Yet another variation:
I have a matchlock with a vent that a circus clown could crawl through, so I leave a copper pick in the vent during loading. Otherwise I get a whoosh of 3F powder against my leg as I ram down the charge. I pull the pick, prime a bit too much, and then give the gun a shuck to one side. This sloshes a little 4F into the vent. Nearly instant ignition.
Your mileage may vary.
-
Note to self: do not stand to the right of Canute when he’s firing his matchlock.
Back to topic, on Saturday after 20 shots I got a flash in the pan and noted the vent was very crusty. Picked it with a sharpened twig and good to go. So I guess I pick when I get a flash in the pan.
-
Shooting chunk (and some table) matches with a flintlock, I pick every time before priming, bank powder against vent and -- if it's day where problems are likely or already showing up, I shove primer into the hole with the pick. Part of this routine is due to my preference for the smallest useable touch hole. I can't prove it but that seems to improve my groups. The "fusing" theory is bogus in my experience.
Offhand I do the same thing, but not as religiously....my offhand rifle gets the old touch hole liners from my chunk barrels, when they've opened to ~1/16", so the vent clears itself almost reliably.
Just what I do, but keep in mind I change touch holes pretty frequently, so the wear from picking is not a huge issue.
-
The question about priming location in the pan may have a bearing on the vent picking decision. The link below addresses the issue of priming location. This was an involved group of experiments, and the link is an introduction to the 6 phases. Part 3 gives visual evidence about banking powder against the barrel. Later tests give statistical evidence.
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/)
Regards,
Pletch
-
Larry,
These tests were all very interesting!
I for one had been told years ago that banked away was best. Good to see the actual evidence to the contrary.
Whilst looking at these tests, my mind kept wandering to the late English locks, with Vee-shaped and "U" shaped pans, and the reasoning behind them. It seems the pan -cover had an adage on the under-side that kept the powder close, but not over the touchhole. (A lip often fitted that did not permit powder Quite up to the touchhole)
I think maybe they knew some things we are just finding out!
FWIW, decades ago I made such a piece and soldered it onto the lower side of the pan cover, it allowed prime very close but not covering the touchhole no matter how the gun was moved about or rotated. It worked well enough, but as you have demonstrated in these tests, no human can Really tell the difference!
Lock geometry and steel temper could possibly have more effect , good or bad, than touchhole placement.
Thank you again for linking these tests for us Larry.
Best,
R.
-
I tend to load with the frizzed closed and at half cock as I have found some FFFg finishes up in the pan then I don't have to prime. I do not do this at the range, just at home or when hunting. Only use a pick when I get a flash in the pan, which seem for me to be ver rare. British army loading drill you primed your musket from the cartridge, closed the pan and at half cock before loading the cartridge down the barrel. I guess the vent liner in my rifle must be quite large for main charge to finish up in the pan, it is a .40.
-
If the vent is much larger than 1/16", Gordon, the pan will oft-times self-prime with 3F is using a decently snug load.
Some ranges will not allow a cock at half-bent and the frizzen closed, although this was normal procedure for about all militaries that used issue ctgs. for loading.
The feelings on this, is if the cock was to dislodge from the 1/2 bent position and drop onto the frizzen, it could possibly fire the gun while you were loading, endangering yourself and anyone
around you.
-
Daryl, I don't disagree, and won't do it again, just a funny quirk I discovered with this particular rifle. !
-
I have seen here oft times of guys noting their guns fired with ZERO powder in the pan. I do not say it cannot happen, but have attempted to get it to happen
a number (lkike20) times and it never has, for me. That is, I pricked the vent after loading, to make sure no powder was poking in the flash channel, then made sure no powder granules were
any where around or in the pan, then 'dry fired' the lock 20 times, knapped the flint on about the 8th attempt, when I saw no sparks, then continues dry firing the lock to the 20th attempt.
It did not go off, and from this, I am not saying it could NEVER go off, just that it does not or has not happened for me as often as it was reported to happen - here.
An overly large vent hole would certainly assist in a non-primed gun going off.
I would suggest that is your lock had an exceptionally deep 1/2 cock notch, or a a dog-lock or 1/2 cock safety, that was applied after closing the frizzen, that the gun would be quite safe loading
if 1/2 cocked - indeed, loading at 1/2 cock with hammer closed was the method most often used, especially with self-priming pans.
I am still not suggesting we or anyone does this, just trying to address the reasons for the criticism of this method of loading.
-
Unless in a big hurry, I generally drive a thin wire pick through the vent right before priming and very rarely ever have misfires.
As to guns firing with no prime, one of the very few flash-in-the-pans I ever experienced happened a few years back while squirrel hunting. Whoosh! Prime burned up but no shot. Squirrel still cutting a hickory nut in the same spot, never moved. So I just quickly re-cocked without ever taking my sights off the squirrel and fired again. BANG. Dead squirrel. A few moments later I thought about how I hadn't re-primed... (and how one needs to be careful even with an unprimed pan.) This was admittedly with a Caywood lock with an outside-coned touch hole, so I'm sure that increased the chances of a lucky spark doing the job with no powder in the pan.
-
Many years ago I had a 20 ga. fowler. The lock was a sparker. You could work with the lock and get the sear up on the half cock shoe and the gun would go off about 1 in 7-8 times with no powder in the pan That,s the story, take it for what its worth.
-
I have seen here oft times of guys noting their guns fired with ZERO powder in the pan. I do not say it cannot happen, but have attempted to get it to happen
a number (lkike20) times and it never has, for me. That is, I pricked the vent after loading, to make sure no powder was poking in the flash channel, then made sure no powder granules were
any where around or in the pan, then 'dry fired' the lock 20 times, knapped the flint on about the 8th attempt, when I saw no sparks, then continues dry firing the lock to the 20th attempt.
It did not go off, and from this, I am not saying it could NEVER go off, just that it does not or has not happened for me as often as it was reported to happen - here.
An overly large vent hole would certainly assist in a non-primed gun going off.
I would suggest that is your lock had an exceptionally deep 1/2 cock notch, or a a dog-lock or 1/2 cock safety, that was applied after closing the frizzen, that the gun would be quite safe loading
if 1/2 cocked - indeed, loading at 1/2 cock with hammer closed was the method most often used, especially with self-priming pans.
I am still not suggesting we or anyone does this, just trying to address the reasons for the criticism of this method of loading.
I read about guns sometimes fireing without a prime in the pan and seriously doubted it would happen without having a huge vent hole. I decided to try it in my Early Dickert rifle with a Chambers Siler lock and Chambers white lighting liner. The lock has always been very reliable. I had drilled the vent out to .625 and had less than 200 round through the rifle. I had it loaded with my normal load of 75 grains of Goes 3F. I tried it with out priming and it fired as normal as if I had primed it! I was shocked. Tried it a couple of other times and it did not fire. So I believe they will fire without priming but I would no bet on it.
Sennis
-
Not to be tried at home, but I once had a 16 bore fowling piece in the workshop, and thought I'd check the spark. Was sitting down and watching the pan, gun on its side.
If you are up to speed you will have gathered I'd forgot it was loaded, (but not primed) and yes, it did go off. Face full of powder and fortunately a big oak plank caught the charge.
Foolish yes, but the truth.
-
It is my thought that the early flint locks did not have touch hole liners, just a hole bored into the breech end of the barrel at the pan. Over time with shooting, the flash hole enlarged due to the softer steel used in fire arms of the era. Putting a quill or pick into the touch hole prior to loading helped to keep the powder from blowing out the flash hole when the ball was seated. This is just my reasoning for this old method. as stated in an earlier post, it is generally not needed with today's firearms.
This makes sense.
You can't get a feather quill in the touch hole of my rifle... Well, I suppose you could if you hunted and hunted for a feather with a small enough quill. Or if you carefully whittled one down. But that seems like a colossal waste of time and effort for something that would break or fall out and get lost.
Now if the touch hole on my rifle had eroded enough to accept a quill... My sister's Australorp rooster would always be missing those beautiful black and green tail feathers. Lol
Mike